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GA-Source editorial on Linux 124

Posted by Hemos from the explaining-it-all dept.
mediageek writes "Targeted at non Linux users, James Hills has written an editorial which tries to explain open source, why there are different distros and general Linux pros & cons. " This is a good one to pass on to your bosses/parents/friends - heck, all of the unwashed. *grin*
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GA-Source editorial on Linux More

GA-Source editorial on Linux

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  • I contend that ease of use has nothing to do with
    command line or GUI. I have seen many GUI programs
    which are tough to use. Ever tried to
    use Veritas Volume Manager? Ease of use comes from
    conceptual simplicity. The simpler mental
    model one form of a software, the easier is it
    to use. GUI does help in some situations, but
    there is a danger in making GUI synonymous
    with ease of use. Managers many times think
    they made a program easier to use just because
    they made programmers put a GUI on top of it.
    Take the case of Netscape's Enterprise Server vs Apache. I haven't found anything in Netscape's
    that made it easier than Apache.

  • Re:Linux to hard to learn? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm glad you were succesful at Debian. More power to you. As a potential professional, think of all of the secrataries, and receptionists that are clueless. These are the people that IT pros think of when they choose WINCrap over Linux. Many in MIS are under a mandate of maintaining productivity over stability. I agree Linux in the long run will kick Windoze pretty hard. Look at the people complainig about Linux's perceived deficienies as an oportunity presented to you to make Linux easy for the that average user. A great example that illustrates my point is the Cobalt Cube. People that I know that are using it love it. Some don't even know that they are even using Linux ! Cobalt went out of there way to make Linux super usable. You could say that they responded to market forces (ala Microsoft). Put your expertise to work for these average users, and yourself. Get involved with Gnome, or KDE. Write an interface for Apache, or Samba that will make it easier for the average user. Heck write a book that would help the secratary or some suit. This is what Open Source is all about!

  • Re:Linux to hard to learn? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm just 15 years old ...

    Ah, therein lies the problem. You see, as people get older their brain fossilizes :-)

    But seriously, I think (from observing people older than me, not from direct personal experience :-) ) that as you get older you lose time to learn new things. I'd say the ability, except that my grandmother (who's 70+, maybe 80 years old) keeps learning to do new things (like incredible china painting) -- however, I think that it may become difficult to learn new *MODES* of thought. Computers (not just Linux) require a relatively abstract and mathematical way of thinking that most people aren't accustomed to. (can a CogSci person back me up or tell me I'm an idiot? :-) ) So it may be mainly a societal thing -- people who are working are expected to work and learn only things that enhance their 'productivity', but for whatever reason older people have more difficulty with computers. Not less.

    I don't really understand the "Debian -> Advanced" idea either though. The only thing I can think of is the huge number of questions and warning messages the installer spits out, it can easily beat you into submission if you aren't expecting it (I've seen this happen even to experienced Linux users :-) ) But once you get it set up I've found it to be easier than other distributions, mainly because things generally work the way I would do them. *shrug*

    Daniel

  • Windows partitioning... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Well I installed it on a friend's shiny new box. First, boot from CD. It asks if you want to boot from HD or CD, with HD being the default (!). It asks some random stuff about 'support for large disks'. I say yes, it REBOOTS (still in that ugly Win3.11-installer-like screen. Same dumb question about 'boot from HD vs CD' (CD again). Copies basic files. Reboot. After five reboots (not counting the initial boot), the system is ready. Five more reboots to install drivers and software (AAARGH!!!). The damn thing preinstalled nothing useful by default, so put CD back in drive, enter the 'package select' (ahem, 'components'...), select some _gamez_ (Solitarie, Minesweeper, and two other random card games). _REBOOT_!!!

    After that _odissey_, I started feeling sad. The fun of installing had ended, and the box had _NOTHING_ to do! Not even a good game! NOTHING!!!

    Went home. Total time (from start of unpacking the new box to full install): about 5 hours (about 2.5 of fun with cables :-) ).
  • A recent Mindcraft study has shown that bicycles are faster than cars. The tests benchmarked the distance traveled by the vehicles over a period of five seconds. The bicycles traveled an average distance of 25.7 feet while the cars traveled an average distance of 0.0 feet. Critics of this survey have pointed out that the drivers of the cars did not have enough time to unlock the doors, get in, and turn the car on. Mindcraft has refuted this argument by pointing out that the drivers of the bicycles had no problems opening the doors and turning them on. Critics then responded by pointing out that bicycles don't have doors and don't need to be turned on. Mindcraft responded to this by saying "hey, what's that over there" and then running away.
  • Posted by Faithless the Wonder Boy:

    I regard restarting WinNT at work as a regular, unavoidable task. Some people seem to get away with never having to reboot, whereas I just seem to crash computers whenever I go near them. I even managed to crash my pocket calculator once...
    --------------------------------------
  • Posted by Faithless the Wonder Boy:

    Smartarse reply:
    In the case of those tools, the moving part is your arm.
    --------------------------------------
  • semis, you're on crack... go to sleep you munt
  • Like aliases? Or shell scripts?
  • In my experience, NT is fairly stable(ish) until you start installing lots of different apps & generally changing things around.

    This is not a good thing, obviously, as the first thing I do with any computer system is install fuckloads of apps and tweak the bejesus out of everything in sight.

    Mong: try to take a glance at some BSOD screenshots at somewhere like www.sysinternals.com (they do the rather fine BSOD screensaver). Taqke a long hard look - they will be your constant friend after just a few more months using NT. :-)
  • This is off on a bit of a tangent, but I'd avoid the combination of RH5.2, an S3 (virge?) DX, and Afterstep - at least, unless you *like* regularly killing/restarting X due to a memory leak. Windowmaker under the same other conditions doesn't show this problem. A recent Windowmaker will stomp the Afterstep that comes with RH 5.2 into a pulp anyhow. :)

    Of course, if you're only dabbling in Linux, you might not notice the memory leak - I use Linux as my only OS at home and leave the main machine on 24/7, so it was an issue for me.

    BTW- you *can* set up Windowmaker so that it uses the same "database" that the other window managers are set up to use - that's how my systems are configured.

    As for "intuitive" - what's intuitive? I sit my mother in front of Windows 95 *or* a Linux box. Either is like asking her to sit in front of the GC/MS setup we have in the lab (and she's not a chemist). I really wonder how much of this is due to Linux not being installed with the comnputer when you bought it and how much is due to the "difficulty" of Linux once it's been configured.

    On Windows I woder why I don't get a nice menu of applications when I right click in the desktop (a la Windowmaker) - and where's the damn dock? Windows isn't intuitive!
  • In cities at least, bicycles are usually the fastest way of getting around - as proved by numerous commuter challenges.

    Alex (taking things far too seriously)
  • I think you're right! And I'm not 15, I was 40 when I started Slackin'(3 yrs now). If you didn't
    learn DOS, you might think a folder ISN'T a sub-
    directory. It not really that hard, you just have
    to learn stuff. Congratulations, Keep on truckin'
  • Exactly. GUI and CLI aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't interchangeable. There are some things each does more efficiently than the other. Which things one prefers in each depend on the user. By having both done well, you have an operating system that everyone can use.

    Previously, I was an OS/2 user. IMHO, it has the best GUI of them all. Assuming the programmer of your app wasn't being lazy, everything was an object and you could drag'n'drop, and otherwise manipulate all objects in a nice standard way. Want to e-mail someone an image from a web page? The URL? Just right click, drag it to your message and send. *poof*. There was even a third party tool that let you drag selected text. This was all from one common interface, everything had the same clipboard, all dragging and dropping was handled by the same mechanism. It was well and good, too bad it wasn't stable.

    Linux (depending on configuration), and Win32 GUIs tend to have some objecty and d'n'd things, but it always seems to be only partially implemented and tends to not work in the instances I'd actually find it useful.

    The CLI of both Windows and OS/2 were relatively useless and quite annoying out of the box. It required 4dos or 4os/2 to get them to behave, bah.

    Linux has a great CLI, many shells available, and if you read the man page on bash or zsh or whichever, you can generally make it behave how you want. Plus, Linux has nice things like real globbing, common acceptance of standard I/O, and a wealth of command line utilities.

    So, to sum up - OS/2 has a good GUI, bad CLI, Linux has good CLI, unfinished GUI, Windows has ... umm... a lot of commercial support.

    I don't suppose anyone is hiding something combining the best aspects of KDE/Gnome and OS/2 using a toolkit that is a GPLed Qt with GTK+ themes and a bunch of handy functions supporting seamless integration with apps? No? Well, could someone please merge all those projects together, or make them interoperable or something, because that's the limitation of GUI under Linux right now, it's too fragmented. The problem is, how can we maintain the ability to have multiple toolkit thingies, window managers, X servers and misc interface bits, while coming up with a way that we can use this mess without it seeming like such an eclectic assortment of unrelated bits?

    I just realised, people are going to tell me to quit complaining and go use BeOS. Oh well. I'll post it anyhow ...
  • I keep hearing complaints of how "difficult" the Unix command line is to learn, "once you venture outside of the GUI."

    Is Unix really any harder than any other command line? Does anyone really think the Windows command line is any easier? Anything you can do from the Windows command line, you can do from the Unix command line just as easily (and often easier).

    The key is that ideally, in Windows you never need to use the command line. But the same is true in Linux! It's not fair to propagate this tired "arcane command line" argument.

  • You played around with RedHat 5.2, probably because some kewl d00d told you it is the kewl thing to do ... you didn't bother reading hardware compatibility lists (I'd hate to watch you installing NT4 on a brand new computer), so you had some initial problems ... you even had to be social to solve one of your problems!

    Then you got it installed and started poking around. Ok, you didn't like the first GUI, and the second one was "klunky", and the applications didn't automatically show up in the start menu. What a shame! Well, the documentation was over your head, so just leave it the way it is ... ?

    But now comes the real bummer about linux: It doesn't come with apache, word processors and image editing tools! Hmmm. I must have gotten the wrong CD, since I had all these. Miracles never cease! You must have gotten a magical Windows CD, too, since the last time I installed Windows 95, it didn't install Photoshop, Word and Apache :-( Dang, I could have saved a lot of money!

    I'm glad you are happy with Windows (especially if they give you all these development tools for free), but I'd hate to work for a company where people like you are responsible for IT. As far as I know, Dilbert hates his job :-) It's just amazing to me that the Windows folks in our department constantly ask us UNIX folks when Windows crashes and burns and never bother asking their Windows peers ...
  • This would hardly qualify as arrogance on my side. This guy never tried to _use_ linux, he just installed it, and couldn't find the applications he wanted, and then proceeded with collectively dismissing linux. He took no effort whatsoever to figure it out or maybe even find out that most applications he needed came with the CDROM.

    If this was some random Joe Nobody, I wouldn't care. The problem is he is IT student and you can bet in a few years he will work in some IT department of some company and will make big decisions - based in obvious ignorance. Doesn't it strike you as odd, that he choses Windows because it comes with Apache ????? Doesn't it strike you as sheer ignorance if he says there are no web development tools for linux when the very forum he posted that is written and based on linux ????

    You can criticize me for replying to flame bait, which is probably not a smart thing. But you should learn to distinguish between people who ask for help and people who are just plain ignorant. Please also realize, that if you use Windows out of protest against me, you hurt yourself more than you hurt me :-)


  • Software, especially the OS, is a tool - a means to an end. Why should I study it before using it? Do you study the complex workings of your car engine before you drive it? Do you become an expert in Telecoms before switching on your TV?




    You don't need to learn everything, but you need to learn a bit. Noone expects you to know the kernel code, or the X protocol, backwards and forwards before booting a Linux system, but you are expected to do what you have to do with your car and TV.


    You have to develop a mental model of how the thing in front of you works. At least the basis of that model has to be formed before you try to use it. Before trying to get them to drive, most driving instructors will tell their students roughly what effect each control has on the car. OSes are more powerful than cars (in the sense that they do more things) and therefore building up that mental model takes a bit longer.


    You need to do this with Windows and BeOS just as much as with Linux. Its just that these OSes tend to be presented in slightly less abstract terms, and its easier for non-experts to get to grips with them. This is arguably also a function of the power of the system

  • You have to use a command line to do effective systems administration on both systems. As an ordinary user, you can just about get away with using the GUI - again on both systems.

    Unix file browsers tend to be a little under powered, and even GMC doesn't show much concern for usability. Thus most people resort to the command line much quicker on Unix.
  • believe it has become a trend for commercial software developers to only release their products for MS Windows simply because that's what Windows stands for -- monetary gain.

    Well of course - games companies are out to make money, and the choice of platform is dictated by the amount of money that can be made from releasing games on that platform.

    to port video games from other operating systems to Linux ... should rest on the developer's shoulders.

    Again, only if they can recoup the development costs in doing that. Otherwise they are simply being rather generous in letting someone else access the source code.

    The main problem with releasing games for multiple operating systems is the support. That's why you'll notice that many of the Linux ports are being released without any support - it's just too expensive.

  • I had Q2 with a TNT2 working under RH6.0, works fine, even at high resolutions. I can't really tell the difference between Win and Linux when playing. So long as you can get above 30 fps, what does it really matter ?
  • The proper "gender-nonspecific" form for a singular person is he/him/his.

    Not to be nitpicky, but the rules have changed. The spec now to switch alternately between he/him/his and she/her/hers, or better yet avoid these contructs as much as possible.

    (At least when I went to college in the early 90s, using he/him/his exclusively would incure the wrath of those handing out the grades!)
    --
  • "Information Technology" to me sounds like a meaningless buzzword..

    Har. Wait until you get a job. Virtually every corporation has a "Information Technology" or a "Management Information Systems" or in sillier places, even a "Client-Server Integration" department. In short it's the folks who run the computers.

    --
  • Recompiling your kernel is more like changing the oil in your car. It only takes about 15 minutes, and you can easily learn how to do it by reading directions.

    Unfortunately many older people don't like to read directions, because they perceive written directions as a threat to their intellect and experience. That's why three quarters of VCR's in the world have flashing 12:00 on them.
  • I dont remember who said it, but I just love this quote:

    "The only truly intuitive user interface is the nipple. Everything else has to be learned."
  • ease of use. People have been exposed to Windows for several years now, when they see a Windows desktop they realize how it operates and can use it semi-effectively. Linux has just recently gotten the attention of the mainstream press and your average Windows user. It will be a little longer before we start seeing it pop up on people's desktops, simply because it's not designed as a basic user's desktop OS. But many groups such as the GNOME peoples and our friends from KDE are working to make it easier for the average Joe to see a desktop and be able to sit down and use it. As for open source, most people could care less. They have always paid for software, I had a teacher that looked at me like I was some sort of demented psycho when I explained the GPL license. I don't do alot of C coding so most programs' source code means little to me, whether it's precompiled or I have to compile it, it's all good as long as I dont have tio pay for it.
  • Been thinking, its a shame to see all these new users who just don't use the power of the shell.

    Just like Gnome and KDE try to make the *nix GUI easier.. something like an applescript clone would make the shell easier.

    Ideas? Comments?

  • It's hard to imagine Linux as a user-friendly OS if Linus Torvalds's own family (other than his wife) won't even use it.

    • Linus's father uses Windows
    • Linus's mother uses a Mac
    • Linus's sister uses Windows

    That pretty much says it all...

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • Do you study the complex workings of your car engine before you drive it?

    No, but you do have to learn how to drive; you couldn't just throw someone in the driving seat of a car and expect to get very far (or at least, to get there in one piece :o) )

    My experience of Linux is that it works straight out of the box. Now, if you want it to work just so, that will take a little effort on your part...

    Tim
  • >> "it requires a bit of study".

    > Software, especially the OS, is a tool - a means to an end. Why should I study it before using it?
    > Do you study the complex workings of your car engine before you drive it?
    > Do you become an expert in Telecoms before switching on your TV? Nope!

    Though those are nice examples, the problem is that all the tools you mention are simple tools.

    There are others. Music instruments for instance. It requires quite some practice to play the guitar or piano.
    If you are in IT and like to make efficient use of your tools (OS, development tools) then you have to be willing to learn.
    An OS is a quite complex tool, the programming tools that come with it are also complex.
    You will have to practice and learn to make good use of it.

    Have fun,
    Frans

  • >>offtopic, but what IS an IT student? I'm a CS student, and "Information Technology" to me sounds like a meaningless buzzword..

    It's basically what passes for CS in Europe. The idea is that they (I don't study it myself) focus their attention on the 'information' not on the 'computer'. That is to say, IT specialists are not necessarily programmers per se, but they are conversant in technologies used for the storage/organization/retrieval of information. What's meaningless about that?

    chris
  • Ah, but using "them" for a singular is incorrect.

    The proper "gender-nonspecific" form for a singular person is he/him/his.

    Sort of the same way "mankind" includes women, too :).
  • I've got an idea here:

    Since compiling a kernel seems to be so intimidating (don't know why, I didn't have any problem with it the first time, just followed the instructions I had and it worked), maybe we need a way to make kernel setup easier for newer users.

    Perhaps a nice, slick front end that downloads the latest kernel source, detects your hardware, asks a few simple questions (do you have a printer?, etc.), compiles the kernel (and tells you it may take a while, sets up LILO or whatever, and then asks you to reboot for changes to take effect.

    I think something like this could be very useful -
    later when people get more comfortable with that sort of thing, they can use the "real" kernel configuration thingy (make [|menu|x]config) - or not if they don't want to.

    And here's something you may not realize: Most modern distros already have it set up so that it will detect your hardware and install the correct precompiled kernel modules.

    The only real reason I've had to recompile my kernel is because I've got an IDE CD burner, and that requires SCSI emulation. Besides that, I could still use the stock kernel.
  • Hmm... I think you've got it backwards.

    Which OS is newer?

    Linux - it was started in 1991, with 1.0 in 1994.

    By contrast, Win9x is still on DOS, and NT is based off of VMS.

    Which needs constant maintainance? Certainly not Linux - set it up, and let it sit. You don't have to worry about crashes, filesystem corruption, or general instability.

    *I* don't know anyone who uses Linux because it's cool - most use it because it does something they need, or something they can't do with another OS.

    For example, at work we just got an 8-node Beowulf (from XTreme Machines, each node is a dual P2-450, pretty impressive), and it's going to be used for simulations of Liquid Crystals. You simply can't get that sort of computing power out of a Windows box - it cost $25000, but that's quite a bit cheaper than a single machine with the equivalent processing power.

    At home, I use Linux 98% of the time - I have Windows '98 installed, but hardly ever use it. I occasionally reboot to play some games, but I'm getting Civ:CTP (linux version) today - yippee! I've given up only Windows because it's just too unstable.


    Hmm.... I had to underclock my K6-233 down to 200 MHz because windows bluescreened constantly, but I haven't tried clocking it back up to 233 in Linux. I gotta try that....
  • I agree, with one exception.

    Games. Games simply cannot be developed in a bazaar style. I'm sure you've heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth", and it's definitely true with games.

    I'm not saying that game *engines* shouldn't be developed. Commercial outfits could definitely use something like Crystal Space - it's LGPL'd, so they can legitimately use it.

    But with almost every other type of software (except for some niche applications that have a very small and highly specialized userbase), Open Source/Free(d) Software works very well. KOffice and AbiWord are good examples of office software that should be ready for primetime quite soon.

    I've tried the latest builds of both, and they're very nice - pretty buggy, yes, but that's to be expected from prerelease software.
  • "Open source: a great new way of development... since 1959." Sheesh.
  • You have the following choices in most cases:

    1) Switch to the passive voice. No gender needed. English teacher will fry you for using passive voice.
    b) Use "they/them/their". Everyone will understand. English teacher will fry you for using technically incorrect grammar.
    iii) Use "he/him/his". Technically correct and non-gender-specific. English teacher may fry you for being sexist.
    IV) Use "he/she" alternately. English teacher will think you're making an attempt at option 3 but falling short. If teacher didn't fry you for being sexist when you used option 3, will fry you now. "She" is guaranteed to be gender-specific.
    five) Buy the advice of the author of a grammar book I studied. "She" is the non-gender-specific pronoun because it also contains the word "he". Will fry if your English teacher disagrees. (I disagree.)
    IIIIII) Use no pronouns. That's what I did for most of this post, e.g. "teacher" in place of "he". Doesn't always work. Must revert to other option.

    This post CAN be related to the topic we're supposed to be talking about. The point is there's no perfect solution and in English grammar as in software licensing we must find the best solution for our own situation. Also, this problem in English has existed for a very long time, and likewise there's a good chance the open source vs. commercial fight will continue to be fought.
  • unwashed????
    sheesh. some people use NT for usability.
    even political reasons.
    i do
  • or 'sh' for short. Naaa, that's too hard of a name for Windows folken. Maybe we should call it Perl, or even Tickle.

    Gosh, we could follow it up with a syntax coloring editor too.
  • 1) Switch to the passive voice. No gender needed. English teacher will fry you for using passive voice.
    b) Use "they/them/their". Everyone will understand. English teacher will fry you for using technically incorrect grammar.
    iii) Use "he/him/his". Technically correct and non-gender-specific. English teacher may fry you for being sexist.
    IV) Use "he/she" alternately. English teacher will think you're making an attempt at option 3 but falling short. If teacher didn't fry you for being sexist when you used option 3, will fry you now. "She" is guaranteed to be gender-specific.
    five) Buy the advice of the author of a grammar book I studied. "She" is the non-gender-specific pronoun because it also contains the word "he". Will fry if your English teacher disagrees. (I disagree.)
    IIIIII) Use no pronouns. That's what I did for most of this post, e.g. "teacher" in place of "he". Doesn't always work. Must revert to other option.

    111) Use the non-gender specific SHe and Hir as proposed by that famous acid-head. Or should that be Sha to avoid sounding like she? Hell, that's all too PC for me anyway. ;=)
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • for the great unwashed that is. While I am able to get, let's say an ATAPI cdwriter working, it took me several hours of fiddling with kernel options and reading doco to do it. When I look at non-computer people using their PCs, I know they would have no hope.

    This isn't totally Linux's fault. Hardware manufacturers work hard to make their devices easy to install. But some work could definitely be done in the kernel config/hardware config department. There are some things that I know should work that not even I can get working (for example, some devices I can't get working as a module but I can when built into the kernel). The whole module config area is too hard right now.
  • The end result, hopefully, will be to make something like Emacs for GUIs. The Guile home page is at http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/guile.html - read it! If you don't like Scheme, the reason GNU picked it is that Scheme is powerful enough to write translators for other languages (for example, you can extend GUILE programs with a C-like syntax.)

    Agreed, it looks like once more programs start using GUILE for extensibility, it'll be über-cool.

    Problem is that, last I looked into it, not too many translators actually exist yet; in fact, I'm not sure that any do yet. Jim Blandy (the guy who maintains GUILE) thinks that some translators, such as Python -> Scheme, would be relatively easy to write, while a Perl -> Scheme translator "...[would be] a herculean task, because Perl's syntax and semantics are so complicated. Hats off to whoever even tries this."

    A lot of people know and like Perl, and I'd hazard that the number of people who would be interested in writing extensions for programs in Perl probably outnumber the people interested in doing the same with Python or Scheme by an order of magnitude. A well-implemented way to get Perl and GUILE play nice together (or, more to the point, to speak the same language to each other) would probably accelerate GUILE's acceptance significantly.

    A side note or two: I've read somewhere that one of the future plans for emacs (both the GNU flavor and the xemacs flavor) include ultimately replacing emacs lisp with a scheme of some sort. This is going to be a Big Deal when it happens, although probably not as bitching-inducing as libc upgrades. Also.. GUILE's real homepage is at www.red-bean.com/guile/ [red-bean.com]. Check it out.

  • > How in the FUCK would anyone ever know how to do that?

    Well, lessee, there's a README file in the /usr/src/linux directory which tells you exactly what to do.

    I managed to recompile my kernel by just having the README open in one xterm and typing away in another.

    Most things seem to be better documented in linux than windows, or maybe the documentation is just of a higher (i.e. more technical) nature.

    I prefer docs which say "to do 'foo', type 'bar baz wibble'. Windows docs are generally "see spot run. if spot doesn't run, phone microsoft".
    dave
  • that's the directory you look in because that's the directory where the kernel source is and you have to be in there to compile it. of course you don't need it to install NT. but if you were *compiling* NT, you'd bloody well read the docs.

    as for not reading docs, if you don't know how to do something, you RTFM! blaming the system for your ignorance is pathetic.

    dave
  • It seems that there's a group of posers that try to cling to the latest computer rage without any thought as to why. They jumped on Win95 because everyone else did, and had to taught how to move a window. They don't even know why they have a computer - everyone else just has one.

    At my school there are a few people like this that jumped on Linux. Not because of stability, speed, or power, but instead, because it made them look "cool."
  • they like to be known as computer geeks. they just don't seem to understand - they aren't.
  • I tried to overclock my AMD 400. It didn't boot to Windows. Not once. I tried booting to Linux! It worked, it didn't crash, and it worked THE FIRST TIME! I don't know what I did, but ever since I did upgrade to a 400 Windows locks up every time I turn on the computer. I pound reset, then it works fine. But Linux just doesn't do this. And Linux's "kill" command works far better than pressing CTRL-ALT-DEL in Win 98.

  • Linux to hard to learn? (Score:3)

    by Beg4Mercy ( 32808 ) on Monday July 05, 1999 @03:51AM (#1818167)
    I'm tired of hearing people complain that Linux is too difficult to learn! I mean, COME ON! I'm just 15 years old and a few months ago I downloaded and installed Debian and got it running, got X working, Netscape, Quake, learned Emacs, and the basics of copying files, editing .conf files, etc. Then I was told Debian is ADVANCED! Sure I had to re-compile the Kernel a dozen times to get sound and stuff working, but I sure learned alot more than I would in Windows!

    I can also remember reading another Linux article where the author said he started getting confused about having to create partitions and wondering, "Why do I have to do this?". These people with their pre-installed Windows don't realize if you ever get a new hard drive you (probably) have/want to partition it and then install Windows.
  • Actually IT and MIS are filled with people who
    can't do the math or write the code...

    At least thats where the CS dropouts I have known
    have gone...
  • I've crashed my TI-86 multiple times. I think it's very unstable, is there a Linux OS for it? :)
  • "they" has been used as a neuter personal pronoun in English for centuries. There are recorded case of Will Shakespeare doing so in his plays, for instance. I don't have a problem with it.

    As for split infinitives... It has never been non-grammatical to do so in English. The reason it was ever considered bad grammar was when some educators mistakenly thought that English grammar should be based on Latin grammar. Since Latin doesn't use split infinitives (actualy, an infinitive in Latin is a single word, which is kind of hard to split), the "logical" assumption was that it was improper in English.

    The problem with that logic is twofold: a) English speakers have been boldly splitting infinitives for as long as they have been uttering them, and b) English is not derived from Latin, but is instead Germanic, a different language branch.

    Besides, some grammarians now view "to boldly go" not as a split infinitive, but consider "go" to be the infinitive, and "to" to simply be a marker that an infinitive will be used. "Boldly" serves as an adverb modifying the infinitive.

    [Also... How do you quote referred text in the /. posting interface?
  • The only reason why Linux is *perceived* to be more difficult to use than Windows is because people are more used to running Windows.

    Of course, the 1st principle in usability is consistency - the easiest thing to use is the thing you're using. 's the the most important thing about Internet stuff - you can get at it from whatever you're using, and it'll work (somewhat) like the way you're used to it working.

    If your tech-illiterate partner/parent/cow-worker were given *nix with a Win95 clone interface, they'd love it, as long as the apps were there. They don't care how it works. Isn't this exactly what MacOSX is? Mach with a Mac interface? 99.999% of people don't need to do anything remotely complex; even simple peer-to-peer networking.

  • Re:Yup. (Score:1)

    by huh_ ( 53063 )
    Recompiling the kernel isn't at all like rebuilding an engine. All you really have to do is change some settings, maybe using: make xconfig, then when thats done, type: make dep clean modules modules_install bzImage .. and you're pretty much done.
  • Anonymous Coward wrote:
    I contend that ease of use has nothing to do with command line or GUI. I have seen many GUI programs which are tough to use. Ever tried to use Veritas Volume Manager? Ease of use comes from conceptual simplicity. The simpler mental model one form of a software, the easier is it to use. GUI does help in some situations, but there is a danger in making GUI synonymous with ease of use.
    20 years ago the Xerox PARC created the whole concept of Graphical User Interface. They did this, not as some would have you think, to make computers easier to use. NO! Their purpose was to make computers easier to learn. It's all about learning curve, not long-term usability.

    Of course Linux/UNIX (and suchlike) are hard to learn. They aren't designed to be easy to learn. They are, however, designed to be easy to use. Small single-function programs that can be combined to produce effects both gross and subtle offer a system with tremendous expressive power and expressive power is what defines "ease of use".

    From my perspective, there really is no way to get around the learning curve. Computers are complex devices and, while you can spend most of your life avoiding the places where they are most complex, sometimes it becomes necessary to make acquaintance with the beast. The only solution that I see is to move most people to the so-called "information appliances" which trade capability for simplicity.

    That, and you need to stop mucking about with the interface. It's best to only climb the learning curve once.

  • I thought it was well thought out... I was wondering when an easy-to-understand article by an articulate author would grace the 'unwashed' as Hemos put it...
  • Hey, Mong-
    interesting reply. If you're using win95c, then more power to you- but I shouldn't talk about it since I haven't used it yet. Proficient w/ 95a and b, though- well, not exactly proficient. See, I can't get those damn blue screens to go away- and yes, I'm a *bit* smarter than the average user. Average Joe User ain't A+ certified and doesn't take college courses for his MCSE; at least, last time I checked he wasn't/didn't. But I have tweaked the progs, downloaded the service packs- and I've just gotten damn sick of it. If it works, no reason to change it- but for me, it didn't work- so I fixed it. Nope, didn't find any way to get into the code- I got another OS. Linux is all I really need- full programming environment, nice Desktop Environments, cool rippling backgrounds- hey, I'm set. *grin*

    But if Windows is your bag, then that's your choice! That's the great thing- I have NEVER had great luck with Windows and stability (as a matter of fact, I've come to believe them to be mutually exclusive terms when it comes to each other), while I do like some of the ways that they do things. I liked the idea of icons- now, they're in Linux. I liked the user-definable backgrounds- GNOME takes this to another level, as does KDE. (What? Did someone say gradients?) And Enlightenment does that damn cool ripple thing- I have NEVER seen anything like it under Windows.

    As the bottom line, if I wanted the same kind of an environment that I get under Linux (with good, rock-solid stability and a great selection of programming tools) under Windows, it would cost me more than I can afford as a simple college student- but Slackware4.0 cost me $1.99 at Cheapbytes. Can't beat that, for the cash... Plus, I love emacs. If I wanted the same kinds of tools- let's see, windowsNT4.0, workstation edition- about $400 last time I checked (correct me if I'm wrong) and Visual Studio costs anywhere from $200 to $500. A whole grand for some pretty tools? Nah. And besides, NT doesn't even run all the stuff that windows95 does. Ah well. Guess that's why I'm kinda happy with what I've got. Eh?
  • I really don't like to toot my own horn but over at Unreal Nation [unrealnation.net] we're running a small poll to see if there's any interest in having Unreal ported to Linux.

    If more and more developers start making their games available for Linux it makes the hardware developers more interested in supporting Linux as well. Hopefully a win-win situation for the user.

    -- Martin
    Unreal Nation
  • ...different from the more confusing but more familiar "maybe here, maybe there, depends on the app" file schema of Windows.

    Well, in Linux/Unix I'd say that the above statement would be "maybe here, maybe there, depends on the distro"... 8)

    I'm running RH because it's a pretty good beginners system as far as I can understand (RPMs and stuff) but as soon as I log into one of the servers I use on the net or install stuff from source (designed for other distros) I get all confused. Sometimes things go in /var/lib sometimes in /usr/bin sometimes in /home/blah...

  • I wholly agree. I think once the GUI learning curve for GUI centric systems is passed, one can easily become frustrated because there's nowhere else to go.

    On the other hand, with the fore-mentioned veritas Volume Manager, going beyond the complex GUI to the even more complex CLI (all those nasty vx* commands) is a last resort only. That particular CLI is so nasty and ugly that even seasoned Unix admins prefer to use the nasty ugly vxva GUI.

    -M
  • > Is Unix really any harder than any other command line?

    No, but it's _different_.

    Before Windows was anything better than whipped cream on a road apple, most DOS aficionados could use a DOS (command.com) CLI and even write .bat files. Even then they feared the Unix CLI, not because it was a CLI, but because it was a _different_ CLI.

    At about the same time, I hated the VMS CLI because it was so different from the Unix one, not because it was difficult or ugly. I also disliked the DOS CLI as useless because I found it was too unhelpful and annoying for its limited usefulness.

    DOS/Windows users may eventually come to like the Unix shells once they get used to the rather simple scheme of "where all the files are" which is, of course, different from the more confusing but more familiar "maybe here, maybe there, depends on the app" file schema of Windows.

    New users find it easier than Windows converts because they have no blinding preconceptions.

    It's all based on what you're used to.
  • For the average user, a bicycle is perfect for small load, short haul tasks. But for users with more demanding needs, the multi-user, multi-tasking car may be a better bet. Bikes may be flashier and zippier in most single user tasks, but cannot easily scale beyond two wheels and one user.

    The venerable cars and trucks of this world still dominate the heavier tasks. Cars aren't even available with less than a 2 user license and four active wheels. Trucks are even known to scale up to 18 wheels or even larger with the load shared evenly by all wheels. Hybrid vehicles called buses are known to handle up to 60 concurrent users with no effect on overall performance.

    It still amuses car and truck drivers that the bicycle oriented press even thought the time of cars and trucks was over and bikes would soon be handling all aspects of transport, even at the enterprise level. 6 years after the introduction of Bike-NT (a motorcycle), cars, buses and trucks still do the vast majority of real transport.

    After all, as we've learned time and again. Bike-NT and all bikes have a much higher risk of fatal crashes.

    -M
  • You're partly correct. The latest Oxford English Dictionary says that it's now acceptable to use "they" instead of "he or she" as the latter construction becomes cumbersome when used often.

    Another major change was the acceptance of split infinitives, to greatly improve the usability of.

    L.

  • I think one of the biggest weaknesses that linux has is in understanding the needs of ordinary users. Just read some of the responses - people are entrenched in their position that "linux rox, windows sux".

    This attitude is out of touch with the masses. By masses, I mean the 200+ million windows users. People who do not know what a video card is. People who don't know how to change fonts. People who don't give a damn about "themes", kernel modules, or nifty configs.

    The major linux base still consists of 10 million people - basically programmers, their friends and relatives, and people fond of technical/computing subjects. The question is if this figure is going to eat a big chunk of the 200 million windows users.

    a) Does the linux community even understand how difficult and intimidating ordinary people find computers? I read lines like "just slap in the NIC card and configure it and you're all set". Do people here even realise how clueless people are with PCs?

    b) Do they care? If they don't, then linux will be stuck with those with a technical bent, while windows will cater to the rest.

    The tendency to dig in and claim that linux is way easier than windows, and scoff at all evidence to the contrary, will ensure only that the user base is stuck where it is presently - with the ones who find linux easier than windows.

    L.

    (PS - please don't give anecdotes about how you find linux so easy. That is the whole point of this post - I'm not talking about us geeks, I'm talking about non-technical people who have never used linux and whether *they* find it easier. Again, non-technical, as in - someone who doesn't know what RAM means.)
  • College students can get NT4WKSTN for free with the purcahse of the MS J++ java environment. Not a bad 50 bucks.

    Matt
  • > sheesh. some people use NT for usability.
    > even political reasons.
    > i do

    Yep, I use it in work.

    It does everything I ask, quickly (honest!) and it's never crashed, hung or bluescreened.

    I can't remember my last bluescreen - seriously.

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • I'm not "refusing to remain ignorant" (I know what you mean), I've tried RedHat, make heavy (if basic) use of a shell account and I grew up on Amiga etc...

    It's just that apart from the reliability issue, Linux appeals more as a curiosity, than as a genuine replacement to my Win32 systems.

    MS annoys me, don't get me wrong - There Bloatwear is overpriced and overrated.

    "it requires a bit of study".

    Software, especially the OS, is a tool - a means to an end. Why should I study it before using it? Do you study the complex workings of your car engine before you drive it? Do you become an expert in Telecoms before switching on your TV? Nope! Hmm, maybe I should have read a sex manual tho... ;)

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • > -Uh, Paul. If it's never bluescreened on you,why
    > did you say you can't remember the last time it
    > did. Kind of sounds like it did but you don't
    > want to admit it.

    No. I've recently started a job using NT4 all the time. It's never done anything nasty.

    What I can't remember is the last time my Win95c box crashed.

    I'll admit it has, MS products have a reputation for unreliability - but the most recent releases are better, not good, but better.

    Mong. Long over due for a bluescreen!

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • So, Linux supports some completely non-standard hardware better than Windows? I'm pretty certain that Win98 has special 3DNow! commands (in DirectX6?), this is probably the root of your problems.

    I overclocked my (ahem...) Cyrix 300 to 366 - works fine under both OS's.

    I'm not trying to turn this into a Linux V Win debate (they're so boring now). I just wanted to contribute an "outsiders" insight.

    *shrug

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • You know, you really have a point - a good one.

    However, I think people are too unwilling to change. Plus, as a technical soloution, there are more MS-Experienced IT "professionals" than Unix/Linux ones. So where's the support coming from.

    I do however sense that the UK as a whole is far less aware of Linux/Unix than the RotW - so maybe this is why people seem a little perplexed by my standpoint.

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • Nice idea - you could use it to create and save what are in essence Macros. Quite sweet actually.

    It would have to become a really prominent part of the system to be worthwhile though, as many users would simply not use it.

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • I obviously deny most vehemntly any accusations of ignorance. If asked to implement a whole new network, I'd instantly recommend a Linux backbone to deal with mail, web and files. Then I'd have NT4 on the desktop. Incidentally, I could actually do (some) of this myself - definatley the HTTP side anyway.

    I didn't simply install it and then "give up". It's still there. I use it about an hour or so a week, either for some GIMP effects not in Photoshop, or to test that my latest pages work under a Linux NS and even in Lynx.

    I was really proud of myself when I configured a variety of things by editing some config files (mostly Apache related) and have relished in the raw power provided by the Linux CLI vs the DOS one.

    There are _no_ web development tools which appeal to me on Linux. Enhanced EMACS? Yeah sure... gimme Dreamweaver, Fusion or even FP98 any day. It's not "sheer ignorance" - quite the reverse in fact. I think maybe it's other who are ignorant of the wide range of quality (if admittedly costly) software available for the Win platform. Maybe thats the point - you gets whats you pays for. Okay, the actual OS isn't half as efficent/stable/etc as Linux, but the available software is pretty f*cking neat in many cases.

    I don't usually respond to a personal attack, but... You don't know me, you don't know of how many hours I spent configuring my system (or trying to), I posted loads of comments on a very Linux centric BBS. Many of the questions were answered (thank you!) - but the griping one about WindowMaker wasn't, apart from being told "read the docs". I did, the docs told me that I had to spend ages manually adding programs to the main menu - I don't know where many of these programs are on my HD (etc).

    The point (there is one) is that Linux is not friendly to new, non-technical users. As far as my particular course goes, I'm one of the most "techie" on it - I only know about 3 or 4 people who actually understand anything about what Linux is (let alone use it). For Gods sake; some of my colleagues struggle to import a picture into Word, or use a "wizard" to make a webpage. You expect these people to recommend Linux/UNIX as a soloution? They don't even know what it is.

    Hmm, I don't use Windows to protest against you - I use it becuase I need it. If all my favourite tools were ported to Linux (freely or otherwise), I'd jump straight across. Especially if the GUI had the intuitiveness that Win95/98/NT undeniably has.

    Which brings me to another point. Much of the Linux commnunity wants everything free or GPL'd or whatever... people like Adobe or Macromedia are not about to release the latest versions of their software freely (do you know how much these cost?) use your common sense here! I think maybe you need to accept that times are changing - Linux is verging on breaking onto the mainstream desktop... don't let a commendable ideology stand in the way of common sense.

    Mong. Apologising for ramblling on (and on).

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • This was exactly the sort of article I've been meaning to write for quite some time.

    As a user of a well know, linux-centric BBS ( FIX [www.fix.no]), I've become more and more aware of the benefits associated with running a Linux system.

    I finally "bit the bullet" and installed RH5.2 - This was my first real experience of Linux other than a shell account (or 10!). I wouldn't say it was a disaster, but it wasn't a success. The installation required a phone call to a techie friend (about partitions) and my on-board sound wasn't supported, neither is the ancient SB16(clone). Oh, and even the cheapo S3DX wasn't quite setup properly.

    But these weren't the problem. I instantly took to Window Maker over the other supplied Gooeys - but it wasn't configured, I needed to (and still do) configure the main menu, to display the programs that were installed upon installation. Very annoying, Win3.1 does it better! So, I switched to AfterStep, but find it a bit "fiddly" or "awkward". The documentation is not entirley comprehensive, or it's so poorly organised I can't find it. It's also aimed at experts, people who already understand most things - it's little use to me.

    Anyway... after a while playing with GIMP, I realised there was nothing I really needed on my new Linux box. On my Win box, I have all the tools I need as a webdeveloper and IT Student (Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Word, Apache, PHP etc) - basically, it does everything I ask of it, and it's pretty stable, despite what the general view of '95 is. Maybe this is because I use 95C (the final release), but it's fine for my needs.

    I'm looking at the SUsE dist' as it looks more suited to me (and comes with KDE), but I'm considering waiting for the Corel release - it looks like it's going to be a whole lot more intuitive and generally "user-friendly" than anything currently on offer.

    Bear in mind that I'm an IT student, so I'm fairly technically minded - with this in mind, how does the Linux community really hope to win over "John in Accounts" or "Sally in Admin"? If "Paul in IT" has problems...

    I support a worthy cause, and Linux, OpenSource et al is just that... when are you gonna support me?

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • Maybe you unionized (no offense to unions in general in case I get mail bombed) lazy workers in IT don't like it, but those of us who've had a choice of recompiling a kernel or staring at a BSOD have chosen recompiling kernels. Would you rather pay Microsoft $150 to tell you you should wait for the next service pack? I guess you would. If you think recompiling a kernel is hard (try make xconfig from an xterm window, it's easier than the Windows control panel ... ) or beyond what a company is willing to do, it's because the IT person is to lazy to learn something so simple. Linux makes sense. Things are laid out simply and logically. Sure, there's a learning curve. It took me about 2 years to get into the MS groove with Windows NT ... figuring out what was working where and how ... the registry? No one's an expert. Linux? There are no hidden settings. You want to find out all the options for something, grep out the comments in the Linux kernel to a text file and store it for reference. Can't do that? Shouldn't be an IT person. Don't 'feel like it'? Go home.
  • ... umm "My boss ... he" is not sexist -- it's a real person. They know if their boss is male or female.
  • Most people aren't smart enough to understand and don't care what is on their system as long as they can do the things they want. Just the fact that you are posting on this site shows that you probably can NOT relate to the AVERAGE (read: I just want to chat on chat lines and look at pretty pictures on the net) computer user. FUD keeps them using the same stuff...when they need a server/webserver they get the stuff that they are most familair with. Windows will continue to win until nc's come along in which the browser is the thing or until enough hand holding from some other OS crowd can become large enough to start a change.

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