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$199 Internet Linux Box 159

Posted by CmdrTaco from the this-is-the-iToaster dept.
Karpe writes "You can read it in news.com. Microworkz will sell a $199 computer for surfing the Web. It's called iToaster, and will run Linux." They aren't giving out much real data except that its x86 based, and it won't feature tons of advertising as part of your web browsing experience (as most of the "Free" PCs floating around seem to want).
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$199 Internet Linux Box

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  • Hey! I cannot believe such a PC can be sold at $200 :

    - Pentium class CPU: $50
    - Hard disk : $100
    - 8 MB memory : $8
    - Modem : $15

    So their system costs at least $173 to manufacture. By counting their profits and the margin of the retailers, you can imagine that it is completely impossible for them to earn money.
  • The article said Microworkz is not going to overcommit this time around (limiting sales to 10K units in the next 2 months). This isn't a guarantee that they won't take two months to get your order, but I'm sure the company knows that if it gets a reputation for delaying orders over a month that they'll go out of business mighty quick.
  • Sorry to cause offence. I'll think of a new one (how about : Windows - Transparent and easy to break)

    I was really talking to all the feeble people out there who complain all day about Windows' flaws and then do nothing about it, though.

  • Macintosh has chic appeal?

    It still sounds like an anorak, even if it isn't spelt like one.

  • "Quite probably the guy that wrote the piece for News.com got his info screwed."

    Nah, that NEVER happens. ;-)

    -WW

    --
    Why are there so many Unix-using Star Trek fans?
    When was the last time Picard said, "Computer, bring
  • I often complain about flaws I find in Windows.

    However, there's not an awful lot I can do about it - Linux is just often not an option. I *have* to work on Windows. I did try putting Linux on my computer at home, but I just didn't really like it - getting it to work just seemed to involve far too much work. - I'd hardly describe myself as 'feeble' - I'd just rather get on with using an OS rather than spending ages getting it configured so that I can use it...

    Now I use BeOS as my alternative OS - it's cute and fun to program to.
  • It sounds to me like they might be running BeOS with a few utilities ported ever from Linux - BeOS boots up *very* quickly - it takes longer for my computer to go through the pre-boot stuff (graphcis card init, SCSI startup, memory check etc...) that it does to go from there to the desktop. Apparently version 4.5 is even quicker - I imagine Be could quite easily make a version that took a few shortcuts, as they know the exact specs of the system to speed it up some more, resulting in a bootup which is only a few seconds long.
  • I don't really want to see your original art on this patent.

  • Lisa (Score:1)

    by Leapfrog ( 4220 )
    The Lisa was named after Steve Jobs's daughter, Lisa.

  • What does that tell us about your products, since they are buying some stuff from you, if thier stuff is crappy then yours must be too.
  • Yup. I agree completely.

    I have about 15 years of technical work, mostly for companies, and it never ceases to amaze me wgat people think that they can get away with/get for free. I attribute it to the incredibly poor quality of education in this country. If people weren't so ignorant, marketing wouldn't work. News flash -- there are no secret ways to make something half as cheap and twice as fast, anymore that there are ways to get a Camero for $1000 (thanks ;) or a 200MPG carburetor or ways to pay $0 in taxes "legally" for nothing or ways to Make Money Fast. It just doesn;t work that way. Yes, Linux allows you to spend money on hardware instead of licences, and that is cool because for the cost of WinNT and Office you could go SCSI and double your RAM (I am assuming $700 for licenced copies, the cost of a small DPT controller and the marginal increased cost of SCSI CD ROMs and hdds, and the cost of an extra 128MB stick of ECC RAM). Yiy could then go for a slower CPU, saving you more money (a 300MHz set as opposed to a $400 MHz set), allowing you to get a UPS. Anyway, the tradeoff is in speed of learning to use Linux as opposed to Windows. But it pays off. Most people don't see this. They see the immediate cost, not the lifetime cost, and I have come to believe that when you see this, you should walk away, because no matter what they say they agree with or what they sign, they will be back in your face and angry real soon after and they will want you to fix their problems. So, I think that it is good policy to try to lose a certain number of customers because they are guaranteed to lose you money in the long run BECAUSE THEY ARE FUCKING MORONS. Ahem. Sorry.

    I finished an MBA last year and I spent a lot of time (obviously) around the sort of people that get MBAs. They aren't technicians, to be blunt. I was one of the only people who had any technical background. On more than one occasion, because people knew that I was technical, I was asked about building (as opposed to buying) a PC. I would give them a short course about what mattered (throughput) and what didn't (CPU speed, mostly). And I would guesstimate prices for them. And then they would ask me if I could do it, with that pseudo-sneaky look that I had learned to be wary of from managers. And I would say yes, at $60/hr. They would blink. And they would go buy a Dell, mostly. A few of them would then settle down and seriously talk money, and I built a few computers, and those people were delighted (SCSI is worth the money, as is good RAM), and the people who thought that they could get me to do stuff for free were pretty pissed off when they were studying with people who had some "Jim Engineering" workstations and saw that they were more than twice as fast, even with Windows. Especially when they realized that the Dell or Compaq that they had was only $200 cheaper.

    You can't really teach adults. You shouldn't try. Pigs, singing, and all that.

  • With really cheap machines, you could probably expect market segmentation from MS. They'd probably give away something like CE rather than see a competitor lock up a new mass market. Remember IE.
  • It may be the exact opposite. Some of Be's newsletters have said they were interested in getting into the "internet device" market. Furthermore, they have, with the permission of the actual developers, incorporated some linux code into parts of the OS (some of Be's ethernet drivers, actually are wrappers around Donald Becker's ethernet drivers), and I believe they were incorporating some more linux code in (not sure where, not sure when).
  • 2.1 gig HD's can be had for less than $100 these days. A low end pentium (90 or less) can be litterally picked up for less than $15, but even if we're talking about something that's still produced, 133's are in the $30 range. A MB can be had for less than $50 and 16 megs of ram can be picked up for about $20. A case is about $20, although I'd imagine they have a proprietary setup. A modem is as you said, about $15. Now, remember, this is what it costs me to pick up these parts at Fry's. If you're ordering parts 10,000 at a time, you can get significant discounts. Even if the final profit is only $20 per system, that's 10,000 customers that this company now has in its back pocket. !0,000 customers who aren't using Microsoft, and 10,000 customers who will no doubt wish to purchase accessories in the future, and you KNOW there will be accessories. People buy console systems because they don't want to spend the money on a big expensive computer to do the same thing. Console manufacturers may only break even on the system itself, but when you consider all the licensing revenue they get from purchased games, you greatly envy their position.

    And there is a large number of people who buy webtv's. This is their market, not the people who already own top of the line computer systems. A system like this will blow a webtv out of the water any day of the week, and unlike the webtv, the system can be expanded, the software can be upgraded, and there is a wealth of effort being applied by the linux community which this company gets to take advantage of.

    Its NOT a bad idea, even if they can't profit off the systems.

    -Restil
  • No,

    Pentium class CPU: $10-30
    Hard disk: $10 (I bought a 650 MB IDE off a roomate for 5, I figure new it might fetch 10).

    That drops the cost to $42-62.
  • Since I saw too many people who didn't read the article, I won't reply to each one, I'll just start a new thread.



    1. They say it's a hybrid OS

    so-It's not Linux with a new Windows Manager

    3. They say there are no apps yet

    so-It's not Linux

    4. They say it's a cross between Linux and BeOS
    so-It's not Linux



    This box is not helping pave the way for world domination. I am willing to bet it won't even cut into the MS profit margin. It will be plauged with bugs, bad tech support and send consumers screaming. What it does do is give Linux a bad name if all of that happens, articles like this that the public can see, and then go buy one of these things will hurt Linux in the long run, say the box works OK (it won't be bug free it's version 1.0 of a hybrid OS)then everything might be fien, but if it's as buggy as most 1.0 products then MS can say "llok it runs Linux". This won't be true but it is what is most likely to happen, and besdies if this company is a threat they are small enough for MS to squish them. This box does not run Linux and doesn't have any apps other than a browser, it doesn't support a lot iof multi-media stuff, if you want to just check you e-mail I guess it's cheaper than a good palmtop, but in the long run it won't be worth it.
    so-It's no Linux
  • Just look at this story, the Tivoli story, etc.

    World domination is at hand. Within five years, Microsoft will be an also-ran.

    --
    Get your fresh, hot kernels right here [kernel.org]!

  • a portable version of the iToaster priced under $500 will be introduced by next year.
  • Great concept; dumb name.
  • it doesnt mention the technology to get on the net? modem or other? for $200 i'm interested enough to pick up one for the kitchen.
  • According to the Maximum PC Network, the iToaster will contain the BeOS and not the Linux Operating System.
    http://www.ars-technica.com/wankerdesk/2q99/pcex po-1.html

    "Built on the BeOS r4.5 (Linux is not involved, despite what other reports have said), but highly different in appearance, the iToaster is a little black PC that lacks either a floppy or a CD-ROM."
  • The iToaster, so named because it is appliance-like in its ease of use, the company says, runs on a hybrid operating system, taken from both Linux and BeOS, rather than the Microsoft Windows platform.


    I'd like to hear more about that hybrid operating system. Where did it come from? Who wrote it? Could you buy one of these beasties, reformat the drive, and load Debian on it? I'm looking for a cheap PC to use as a firewall: is this it?

  • hybrid operating system

    Yeah, I really scratched my head over that one, too.

    Especially because they talk elsewhere in the article about the Open Source aspect.

    I'm thinking it's just Linux, with a wm config that they came up with that mimics BeOS.

    --
    Get your fresh, hot kernels right here [kernel.org]!

  • I was confused at first, because I thought this thing really was a toaster, and that the age old joke of having Linux on your toaster had come true, as I read on however, I found out I was udderly wrong...

    What a silly name!

  • This doesn't strike me as all that interesting. For $199, you could buy a 486 and the appropriate preipherals for surfing the web.

    As a tech, I could do it without a second thought, but I suppose if you don't know anything about computers, this would be easier to work with.

    Does this use a TV set? Do you need a monitor? Monitors are too expensive and TVs are too lousy. This thing might make it if they kick in a DVD player, and digital TV tuner. But I wonder what a device like that would cost...

  • "You can't buy a '99 Camaro for $1000 from the dealerships, and the same type of reasoning applies to PCs."

    ...yes... Exactly. Why does my mom need a P-III? She's running a Win95 box with 32megs of SIMM RAM, a P-100, an X2 non-IDE CD-Rom and 2 300meg HDDs. The thing can't be worth more than $150, another $50 for the monitor, in CANADIAN funds! If it wasn't for the proprietary printer support she could be running Redhat 5.2 and WordPerfect, and she probably wouldn't have to upgrade for a long time. I know this because this was my computer before I got my P-II 300. I was running Slackware on it before I upgraded and it was great. I even had a Maxi-Gamer 3D in there that made Quake II playable, and really smooth.

    This can totally be done. You're thinking of what you need, not what the really low end consumer actually needs, the person that's just starting out. I'm amazed anyone buys a first PC these days, it would take a lot of faith to dump that much money into something that may end up being unusable anyway.

    If computers cost as much as they do now back when I was growing up, we wouldn't have had one, and I'd be moving boxes for a living...

  • I can't seem to get onto the microworkz web page right now so i haven't seen the REAL specs yet, but this looks good. With just about every previous "value" computer (including this $800 compaq I bought a while ago,) if I look around I see, gee, I could build my own just like that, with seperate, upgradable componenets instead of onboard or proprietary, for a couple hundred less. But it looks like this company is using mass-production techniques and all that to good use. If I find that I can put wordperfect on it, and hook a printer up to it, i'm in line to buy one (pending decent specs...).
  • Since I saw too many people who didn't read the article, I won't reply to each one, I'll just start a new thread.



    1. They say it's a hybrid OS

    so-It's not Linux with a new Windows Manager

    3. They say there are no apps yet

    so-It's not Linux

    4. They say it's a cross between Linux and BeOS
    so-It's not Linux



    This box is not helping pave the way for world domination. I am willing to bet it won't even cut into the MS profit margin. It will be plauged with bugs, bad tech support and send consumers screaming. What it does do is give Linux a bad name if all of that happens, articles like this that the public can see, and then go buy one of these things will hurt Linux in the long run, say the box works OK (it won't be bug free it's version 1.0 of a hybrid OS)then everything might be fien, but if it's as buggy as most 1.0 products then MS can say "llok it runs Linux". This won't be true but it is what is most likely to happen, and besdies if this company is a threat they are small enough for MS to squish them. This box does not run Linux and doesn't have any apps other than a browser, it doesn't support a lot iof multi-media stuff, if you want to just check you e-mail I guess it's cheaper than a good palmtop, but in the long run it won't be worth it.
  • This is ANOTHER thing i scratched on some notebook paper. I'm gonna have to lock up my notebooks from now on...
    Even though I wasn't able to build one first, it's still a great idea. Not only does it give linux some rather good publicity but providing they have a USB port (great for accessorizing) or two it would also lead to some hardware manufacturers helping out with linux drivers for their products. It's very profitable too, a MediaGX processor (which Microwerkz loves), FlashROM or a small hard disk, some memory and mobo and such would probably run them about 150-170$ which means they make at least a 30$ profit off these, 10,000 * 30$ = enough to build a nice little production facility. If I can network it and plug it into my gateway I'll buy one for my parents.
  • Read the article numbskull, it doesn't run Linux, it runs a hybrid OS that DOESN'T have any third party apps available. How come half of you people don't read the article before you post, I know you are smarter than that
  • I've been thinking about this. (careful, could over-heat that brain cell)

    BeOS has some kind of POSIX compatibility, right?

    So maybe what they mean is that they've ported some user-space Linux software to BeOS. 'course, this doesn't explain the *free* bit.

    The only other alternative I can think of is that they really have got some kind of license with Be.
  • As I recall, the folks at Apple chose Macintosh because it's a particular variety of the apple (fruit). Specifically, a great little pie apple with the color of a Roman and a sour taste like the Granny Smith.

    Were it the raincoat, I imagine it would have been called the Mackintosh (with a k), like the raincoat.

  • If it was truly a hybrid OS of Linux and BeOS, I would expect it to run apps written for *both* OSs. They'd just need recompiling.


  • Even though you're using retail pricing, you're probably right.

    If it's anything like the WebTV, they lose money on the hardware, and make back on the ISP service (which you have to sign a 12 month contract for). That and Ad revenue and you could possibly make some money (although WebTV hasn't, if I heard correctly).
    --

  • I know you had a point to make, but was it really nescessary to send it twice %-)

    A couple of points :

    1) If it's not running Linux - what *is* it running? Bear in mind that this article was not nescessarily aimed at the technically minded.

    2) This box is merely a small part of the 'world domination' that's going on, which is in reality simply an escape from the Microsoft monopoly.

  • Well, according to some new information, it seems that the article I based my previous post on (2 posts up) was incorrect (and thus I was partly wrong as well).

    According to a review at benews.com, the iToaster will contain a proprietary OS. They have obtained this information from Microworkz.com (Microworks being the maker of the iToaster).
    Whether it is completely true that the iToaster is running a propriety OS, I can't say for sure, although a lot of information on various sites points to "some type" of proprietary OS.
    You can read more about it as well as view some pictures of the iToaster at:
    http://www.benews.com/img/incoming/169.gif
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Wow. You learn something new every day.

    Ok, so they named it after a fruit. Is that any better?
  • I'm not trying to start a flamewar, but aren't you just spreading your own FUD? Do you have any proof? I think this would definitely qualify for (F)ear and (U)ncertainty, if not (D)oubt. At least you made it clear that it was your opinion... But if you're criticizing someone else for spreading FUD, make sure you're not being a hypocrite.
  • I hope you're cautioning people to read this before they buy vice telling them not to buy because of this. Microworkz was ready to handle 10,000 units a month not the 60,000 to 70,000 in 10 days they received. I don't think you can flaw them for that. I don't know if the Webzter was Microworkz first product or not, but if so they deserve at least a second chance to see if they've adapted and overcome. If they repeat the same mistakes then, and only then, can you recommend people not buy from Microworkz.
  • I didn't mean to send twice, oops ;P

    The article says it is running a cross between Linux and BeOS that has no third party apps yet, to me that means a propietary OS.
  • Unless they pulled just the code they wanted, essintaily creating another proprietary OS.

  • Ok, I've been reading the article more thouroughly (as I should have in the first place).

    First, it wasn't written by a hacker/nerd/geek/whatever. The word 'bug' is used as a synonym for 'virus'.

    As to the OS, the article makes two interesting points : the OS *is* Open Source, and the machine will switch on instantly without a long boot sequence.

    The former presumably just means the Linux part of the OS, but I still fail to understand the term 'hybrid'. I assume its misused, as 'bug' was.

    The latter suggests to me that the OS is stored in ROM. Maybe not relevant, but interesting nevertheless.

  • Look, I have had experiences like those touched on above, and I tend to see his comments more like the sort that I have heard myself making over a beer with friends when I have had a hard time trying to make customers understand why a decent power supply will cost $200 at a minimum, unless you want something of dubious reliability, that will deviate +-10% to 15% from rated specs, that will not handle a load, and so on. They don't get it.

    me: "Yes, that case/power supply combo is $40 total, but it will cause problems with your motherboard and disks if a)you are running anything that needs stable power for a long time, b)you are doing a lot of disk accesses, c)you have any electrical noise whatsoever, and d)if you have any brownouts periodically."

    them: "But that whole thing is $50 and it is a 250 watt supply! You want to sell me a 200 watt supply without the case to go with it [yes, I hear that a lot] for $220! I feel ripped off!"

    me: "I make 10% on most parts -- we make money on labor. The supply costs me $200, has a five year warranty, we have never got one back, you are talking about running a PII that can pull 20% of the rated power off the bat plus two disks plus a CD ROM plus a Voodoo2 and a Matrox card with 16MB of RAM and you want 128MB of RAM on the board for your kewl gaming system. You will have problems with a cheap supply. That is why we don't sell them -- a 30 day warranty isn't cool with something like a power supply, and neither is a power supply so poorly set up that it cannot be sold alone -- it is only rated inside a case."

    me: "But is says "250 watts" right there, and your is 200 watts. Electricity is electricity man, I know that. I think that you are ripping me off."

    And he leaves, and we go back to building some more scientific workstations for UT and fixing mission critical POS systems for people who don't play games on their computers.

    It always reminds me of Spinal Tap, where the roadie (AFAICR) says "Ours goes to eleven."

    Yes, we charge $50/hr with a 30 minute minimum, and my techs are paid $25/hr. That is normal around here, too.

    I am not sure what your experience has been. You may have taken out the prices on the person selling the stuff. Not having money sucks -- that is why I started my business -- but it sometimes isn't the fault of greedy capitalist screwing the consumer. Sometimes they know what they are talking about and they don't want to be selling something guaranteed to come back and bite them. Some stuff is expensive because it is expensive, like some stuff is hard because it is hard. People complain about sendmail tool, but you get what you pay for, in money or effort. And just because you effort is not costing you, that doesn't mean that it is free either.

    Sorry about your experiences (really -- I see too many people who come into the shop looking like they are about to be ambushed and and approach the service counter with the grimace of someone who is expecting to be taking from the rear without any vaseline and I find this depressing, considering how much computers have added to my life all along). But that isn't an iron rule and a lot of small shops do do good work at decent prices. (And no, I ain't plugging it either. This isn't the proper forum.)

    Fins out where the cable guys and AT&T guys go for odd parts and you might have a better shop. Ask people in your local LUG where they shop. And think over what you need -- if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
  • With more than a little irony, these machines seem to fit the model Clayton Christensen describes in his book "The Innovator's Dilemma: When distruptive technologies cause great firms to fail" These "bottom-feeders" would currently be the least desirable of "lost customers" for MS (those who spend the least amount of money). However, as you note, once they reach some level of numbers, they will reach upward to market just above (I'm describing the market here, not the functionality of the competing OS's). The irony being that is not unlike how MS got its' original foot in everybody's door. Gene
  • -- there are no secret ways to make something half as cheap and twice as fast

    But isn't that exactly what the computer industry has been doing for may years now? I am not saying that the iToaster is some quantum leap in computer technology. It is only another step in the continuing trend toward faster and cheaper hardware.

    And keep in mind that because it is running Linux, the iToaster should still perform well on lower end hardware. I've removed Windows from old 486 systems and replaced it with Linux. The effect on web surfing and general system response time was dramatic. That, combined with the *no license fee* thing, make Linux a perfect fit for the Internet Appliance market. I've been predicting that something like the iToaster would come along, and in exactly this price range. I expect this and similar devices to make a serious gouge into MS's desktop market share.

    Thad

  • I'd rather refute you than moderate for blatant ignorance.
    1) NOT ALL SHOPS ARE THE SAME.
    - In fact, most of them suck. In a big way. Mine's not too bad, though I could definitely use a pay raise. (BTW, I live near Austin and am ready for a new job. E-mail me :) However, trusting a GOOD computer shop is a much, much better idea than trusting the "Idea Box" :)
    2) At Fry's, Circuit City, and etc., the "tech" don't usually know JACK $HIT :)
    - Truth. They are usually little more than glorified burger flippers. Every once an a while, you find someone who knows something, but it's very uncommon. They make up answers to questions they've never heard before. At a computer shop, the owners and managers don't have any use for people who don't know how to work a computer. Don't expect them to last long.
    3) You are stupid.
    - I hate being blunt, but if you get taken by an unreasonable computer store, it's nobody's fault but yourself. You also must be living in a hole to think they all overcharge. Any of them doing good, solid buisness offer better prices on new equipment much more regularly than bigger chains. If a computer store has a good reputation, go there. Why take chances? Even if you have no life, you can call up the BBB or just start asking around and checking prices. Unreasonable computer shops do not last very long though. They have to be very resoponsive to thier local reputation, because often that is all they have.
    BTW, if you are going to complain about outrageous prices, start with insurance, auto repair, and apartment rent :)
  • I am willing to bet it won't even cut into the MS profit margin. It will be plauged with bugs, bad tech support and send consumers screaming. What it does do is give Linux a bad name if all of that happens, articles like this that the public can see, and then go buy one of these things will hurt Linux in the long run, say the box works OK (it won't be bug free it's version 1.0 of a hybrid OS)then everything might be fien, but if it's as buggy as most 1.0 products then MS can say "llok it runs Linux".

    And for the conspiracy-minded, the company is based in the Seattle area. See their careers page. [microworkz.com]

  • Re:They cannot earn money (Score:3)

    by neonzebra ( 33639 ) on Saturday June 19, 1999 @11:07AM (#1842561)
    • Pentium class CPU: $50
    • Hard disk : $100
    • 8 MB memory : $8
    • Modem : $15
    • Telling Microsoft to shove their royalty fees up their *ss: Priceless
  • A small Linux box has uses - even without much in resources, it can easily serve as an advanced ISDN router/firewall/masq, DNS, mail, www, ftp, print-et cetra-server - many old 386/486 boxes are now doing just that.

    The problem I see with this as a general "Internet appliance" is that what is going to become the family internet appliance is going to be on the high end. It may - indeed should - have such a box between it and the actual Net, but when such a thing converges it will have functions that are on the verge but not quite implemented well yet by anyone. Besides the MP3-playing, probably essential TV tuner/DVD, and massive 3D video acceleration, digital VCR functions will soon be expected; Multicast IP? Forget it. With digital TV, the amounts of data that can be broadcast along with the video is immense and individually or group addressable, with the Internet the probable backchannel.

    We're talking the family data center. Almost certainly more than one. Dad & Mom aren't going to watch their hour of news tidbits, gathered over the day from dozens of sources, at the same time as their offspring are playing Quake or doing their home schooling lessons. No one is going to want to share their 40+Gig drive(s) with the rest of the family either, or give up TV-or-better video formats to store there.

    I think this is a Good Thing overall, and that it will spur the growth and usefulness of the internet immensely to extend it into the rest of the family's communications realms. I hope that the Open Source movement can use the opportunity - and need - for open standards in unifying electronic communication.
  • Why are 486's cheap? Here's your mini economics course.

    High Demand + Low Supply = High Selling Price
    High Demand + High Supply = K-rad selling price
    Low Demand + Low Supply = K-rad Selling Price
    and of course....
    Low Demand + High Supply = Really Really Low Selling Price ( - The 486 chips go here, though supply isn't all that high, unless it's relative to demand.)

    They aren't cheap just because they are old, but because no product currently demand them. (This explains why the antique computer buisness exists :)

    If there is a high demand for iToasters, then demand for parts for the iToasters also go up. If the supply for those parts begins to dry up (example: if they are made from old 486's, which are no longer in production, period), parts price go up, then that company is in trouble :)

    Basing a new product on obsolete technology is bad bull for any company.
  • Heres my take on it...
    Open source backend (a modified linux) and a proprietary GUI frontend (borrowed from Be)

    much like Mac OSX
  • Linux is GPL'd. Code release required. The BeOS kernel is closed-source (although large chunks of the system are open i.e. the BeOS GeekGadgets, like the Amiga GeekGadgets from ninemoons before them, are just recompiles of all the GNU tools)

    Could be interesting, although more likely is just "a single-user mode linux kernel configured to boot a somewhat BeOS-like GUI"

  • Here's [streettech.com] what Street Tech had to say about the Webzter Jr, the cheapo PC by Microworkz.


    In a nutshell: 0.0 rating.
  • Does it not look like a portable toilet?

    -jhp

  • "2) At Fry's, Circuit City, and etc., the "tech" don't usually know JACK $HIT :) "

    I totally agree with you on that one. I was at Best Buy the other day. Some woman and her kid were talking to one of the 'Computer Experts' there about a problem they had with burning songs on a CD. Anyhow after totally explaining the problem to them correctly what the sales person didn't seem be able to do right the woman informed me that she paid Best Buy 5 hours worth of work to install their new EIDE CDRW. She said it took them three hours to install the CDRW at $50.00/hour, then while installing the CDRW they fucked her PC up so she had to pay them another 2 hours worth of work at $50.00/hr to fix what *THEY* screwed up. It never ceases to amaze me how compeatly *STUPID* these people who work at the Best Buy/Circuit City places.

    What *REALLY* pissed me off was, from what I understood the kid was about 9/10 yrs old spent all the money he saved on the CDRW, then Best Buy goes and screws his mother over for trying to get the thing work for their computer then on top of it fucks her again after they screw the computer up.

    I still couldn't understand what the hell they did to their computer to take 5 hours worth of work to get a freaking CDRW to work in their PC I'm at the point to belive that Best Buy just did 1 hour worth of work watched Star Wars for another 2 hrs or something then charged her 3 hours for installing the CDRW. I can't belive that the people there are *THAT* freaking *STUPID*.

    Oh well... Stupid places, then someone halfway decent trys setting up shop no one wants to business with them because they don't screw the people. It always seems to end up that way. :)

    - lakdjfalkdj Cus all the good nicks were taken!
  • only other alternative I can think of is that they really have got some kind of license with Be.
    Several months back, Gassee offered a free BeOS license to any company who would preload it.

    -jhp

  • Here's a possible hint: Linux has compatibility with Netscape, and yet BeOS has better fonts and a more polished GUI. So perhaps it's BeOS with some X-Windows code taken from Linux for Netscape compatibility.

    It would be pretty lame if they relied on NetPositive. Now, I like NetPositive personally, because it's smooth and fast, but it's not going to make it as your only browser.

    D

    ----
  • Being an it manager at a local company near seattle.

    Being that Microworkz is located not that far south from me.

    Being that we have 40 units from them.

    Current count of parts that have gone out on us.

    24 cpu fans.
    12 power supply fans.
    3 cpu's.
    2 motherboards
    1 video card in a pear tree.

    My advice would be to stay as far away from this company as humanly possible. The crap they market as a computer would be better melted down and sold as a toaster.
  • They charge $50 shipping for their $299 pc. $199 is a lowball price -- you'll actually pay more by the time you get it delivered and perhaps add a few options like disk drives or monitor.
  • If MS wants to give an OS away for free, we can't really complain. Although we'd prefer source code, getting a buggy OS for free is better than getting a buggy OS for $70. Then again, I doubt MS would ever be so generous.
  • I would hate to see someone new to computers going out and buying a $1500 computer when all they are going to use it for internet access and word processing. That is why it is an internet box and not a gaming/MS Office/compile your kernal really fast maching. I am actually looking forward to WebTV or something like it so people don't have to pay for something they won't really use anyway.

    --

  • Ok, this is something I've wondering about. Has anyone investigated how to speed to do this for normal PCs? Where is all the time taken up during kernel boot? If you assume all the hardware hasn't changed from the last boot, is there anyway to quicky "play-back" io initialization and then load a memory image of the kernel?

    I've been making a little robot with microprocessors, but I'd like to add some real CPU power without too much work. Using linux is the obvious choice, but boot time can be a pain if the bot shuts down frequently to save power.

    Inquiring minds want to know...

  • You have to admit, the original post was kind of lame. Fud shields?

    I think we should quit this anti-Microsoft jihad because it reflects on our maturity. Microsoft did nothing but they are accused of vapor-FUD.

    Think about it. Is this any different then the 9 year old who collects sticks and rocks for the percieved Alien invasion?

    --

  • But they couldn't create a propietary OS if it's Linux based, right? GPL?

    Alejo.
  • Hard disk? Where does it say it has a hard disk


    On http://www.news.com/ News/Item/0,4,38074,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.j [news.com]. It says:

    The company will not divulge all of the specifications of the hardware, except to confirm that the iToaster runs on an Intel Pentium class processor, and includes a 2.1GB hard drive.


    Alejo.
  • It's not Microworkz's fault that they got swamped. Microworkz wasn't anticipating such a large number of orders. You should have wrote this in your post. Did you actually read the article?
  • If they wanted to name it after a fruit they'd have named it Jobs
  • The Haroldson is a much tastier apple than the Macintosh, IMHO. But I suppose "Haroldson" just doesn't have that 'chic appeal they needed to sell the Mac.
  • The reason the Webzter Jr doesnt have a CD and a floppy is because they want you to buy software from them and just download it. Which if you have a cable modem, DSL, ISDN ,ect. it's not terribly difficult, on their "fast 56k" it becomes a little more tedious, but a not terribly bad idea. It's not a damned wrokstation, if you're hellbent on having a good system, dont buy from a vendor, build it! These kinda things are for the other 99% of the population who doesnt care or know what a kernel is, and isn't sure what the real difference between a gigabyte and a megabyte is it's just confusing numbers. The MediaGX and 32 megs of ram is just fine for most wp operations and for getting on the net.
  • What he says is essentially "I got annoyed so I didn't care to review it".
    /El Niño
  • If it's a TV set thing, $199 isn't low enough. Aren't WebTV boxes about $99 these days?

  • Of the few that I looked at, only London computers had machines with Linux preinstalled. Everything else either didn't come with an OS at all (some were just kits) or had Win98.

    If you could, post the dealers that were selling preinstalled Linux machines. Thanks

  • Did you miss the part about 'single or limited-use' in your glee at labelling Windows and Office "bloated legacy"?

    I can't think of much at all that's "lighter" about a Linux machine. And the "legacy" apps on a Linux machine are far older than the Microsoft stuff.
  • If they have really made a linux-beos hybrid, that would be interesting. Isn't Be closed source?

    If they've licensed some code from Be, and grafted that on linux, they'd have to GPL the whole thing, thus giving us access to part of the source of Be...

  • It's been a long time since the computer industry made a significant move into the mainstream home market. The last time was back in the C=64/ Vic 20 days. Recently the home PC market has been slowly growing but no big jumps. This iToaster and other low priced PCs are an indication that we may have another massive market thrust into the home/ home entertainment industry with Linux at the forefront.

    The C=64 was a low end PC running a non-standard OS (the norm was CP/M or MS-DOS for the PC industry). The iToaster - a low end machine running a "non-standard OS". The $199 price sticker really rings a bell too, That was the price of the C=64 at it's height in popularity.

    Why $199? That is the price that everyone finds acceptable for home electronics. Stereo Equipment, Bread Makers, Televisions, Nintendos, all sell for around $199. For some reason the American Consumer feels comfortable paying this much for home entertainment/ conveinience devices. I think that is one of the Reasons Comodore was so successful back in the 80's.

    Everyone talks about Linux usability, Customer Support, and third party applications being the key to Linux's success. BULLSHIT. We all know that Linux has these things to one extent or another. IBM and Macitosh both had all of those and Microsoft ground them into the dirt. Look at the places where Linux has grown in Marketshare over Microsoft, The Server arena.

    Internet servers and Smal LAN servers cost around $2000-3000. Add NT, MS Exchange & SQL Server and other net goodies : $1500-2000. The premium for the OS & tools is over 50%. Linux has massive penetration in these markets. Lesson - When the cost of the OS reaches a 50% of the hardware people start to shop for a new OS.

    Now back to the iToaster, Cost of hardware = $199 Cost of OS = $0. If they used Win 95 they would increase their cost of goods by 50%.

    Businesses have significant investment in Microsoft Products and are slower to respond to Market changes. Home users don't have this constraint. Individual households have little or no investment in current (Microsoft based) technologies and only need to interact with other systems through well defined STANDARDS based portals (HTTP, SMTP, POP, etc.).

    Death knoll for Microsoft? I think not. But they are not going to have much trouble selling their initial 10,000 units of these iToasters (iToaster, eMac hmmmm... ). Dennis

  • Are they using *sleeve-bearing* fans or something? Out of anything other than a HUGE sample nothing like that should happen. (Especially if you use Intel Boxed CPUs with Sanyo fans or something like that.) And bad/noisy PS fans are good signs that the whole PS unit is junk, too.
  • Something I was thinking about was a machine with a 16MB IDE flash disk, and a compressed ROM file system. This would let you put Linux and the essential stuff on (for something embedded only 2-4MB would actually be needed) and have it boot in a matter of moments. (1min) Also it might be possible to back up the system state to NVRAM or Flash ROM as well, further reducing start up time. But that would require a bit of coding effort.
  • and none of the apps of both-just like Mac OS X server

  • It's nice that the article specifically stated that the low cost was part due to Linux being free as opposed to Windows. This could be a hot seller for schools, libraries, etc.


  • mass marketing the net using a non MS system at that price just rules. Power to the people, dammit!
  • With the falling prices in hardware, the cost of a windows 95 license from microsoft becomes increasingly significant. I think we will see lots of manufacturers using free operating systems on their low-end machines. When the people who have purchased a cheap machine decide to upgrade to a more expensive computer, they'll probably feel more comfortable with having linux or *BSD on their new machine rather than windows 95 because they are used to linux or *BSD (or whatever OS was on their cheap computer). This should not only dispel the rumors that linux is hard to use, but should also convince more computer manufacturers to offer linux on their entire line of computers.
  • You notice that the article goes on about how this product is possible through low-cost alternatives such as Linux which do not require licensing fees? Then the writer goes on to explain that this is the fulfillment of a prediction made by a number of companies, including MS and Intel. Specifically:
    Companies such as Microsoft and Intel as well as a host of PC and consumer electronics manufacturers have all postulated that in the near future, consumers will conduct e-commerce and pay for a variety of services through single or limited-use Internet appliances, rather than bulky and expensive PCs weighted down with bloated legacy applications.
    In other words, traditional PC's are weighted down with "legacy" applications, specifically Windows and Office. What a beautiful way of phrasing the problem!

    I like the tone of this article,
    --Lenny

  • No bugs? (Score:3)

    by EEPROM ( 50820 ) on Saturday June 19, 1999 @05:40AM (#1842602)
    According to the article, the company claimed that, because that platform was new, it has no viruses or bugs. I agree that it has no viruses, but all nontrivial software has bugs. The company needs to recognize this and work to fix the bugs, or else the platform will end up like windows.
  • I can understand trying to sell affordable computers, as I manage a computer store, but this stuff is really starting to annoy me.
    When these type of machines come out, they market it as the greatest invention since sliced bread, and maybe 80% of the consumers buy into this wonderful invention that only cost $200. In reality, the devices are about as powerful as a LeMans powered by a hamster wheel. The consumer gets unhappy and taken again, can't return it because of the "no refunds" policy, and gets paranoid about the computer buisness and these fly-by-night operations in general.
    Where it really annoys me is when people buy into the marketing, come to my shop, and ask for a Quad-PIII-500 with Warp Drive and expect to only pay $200 for it. No. It don't work that way. Personal computers, like it or not, are extremly individualistic machines. There are many options and many price ranges. You can't buy a '99 Camaro for $1000 from the dealerships, and the same type of reasoning applies to PCs. Get over it, consumers! Next time you by a computer, please get someone PC literate to go shopping with you. Quit looking for the cheapest way out. If you do, these marketers will keep on riding you, just like a bad car salesman or insurance salesman....
  • I hate when articles criticize Linux for the nonexistance of 3rd party apps. What do they call Wordperfect? What about KOffice? Civ:CTP? There aren't many, but that doesn't mean there are *none*.

  • What in the world do they mean by "runs on a hybrid operating system, taken from both Linux and BeOS"?

    Are they licensing some features of BeOS and making them run on Linux? Highly doubtful. Did they write something from scratch? Yeah right. Do they have some sort of BeOS-looking GUI that runs on Linux? (non-X-based?)


    --

  • What? No third party apps?

    How does that explain the fact that I have three wordprocessors, two spreadsheets, three browsers, three file managers, five window managers and an uncountable number of editors running on my system, all of which I obtained for free?
  • If they only used the code they wanted from Linux, they wouldn't have to release all of the code. I will explain how this could work if need be.
  • It's probably a dodgey OS based on some things in Linux and some things in BeOS. It's probably not intended for "general use" but is rather marketed as an "information appliance." That's the market that stuff like this is trying to create. It'll be like the dedicated word processors they're still selling some places, but with the ability to browse the Web as well. If it's GPL'd, that just means there will be a CD-ROM tucked into the back cover of the owners manual with the source code. For $200 I doubt if there's a CD-ROM drive in the machine itself.
  • The BeOS comes with GCC, and a lot of BSD-derived components (like the ls command, etc, when you drop down to a bash shell). It's completely single-user (isn't multi-user a part of Posix?).

    My free update of BeOS 4.5 came in the mail today. I like what Be is doing.
  • Speaking of security issues and newbie users, I recently discovered, by chance actually, that a friend of mine was running her Linux box with NO root password. She'd been tooling around on the net for weeks, and hadn't ever put in a root password during installation (that was possible with Slackware 3.6, it has you create a password as part of the setup for Slackware 4.0). I discovered it by chance when she sent me a piece of email. I read the header to find her dynamically assigned IP address and telnetted to the machine. My regular account on the machine was gone (she's reinstalled since I'd last been over) so I tried 'root' and *wham* I was at a root prompt with no password prompting.

    That sort of thing is going to happen a lot what with all the newbies buying shrinkwrapped RedHat/SuSE/Caldera OSes at superstores. It's going to give Linux a bad name when it starts happening because Joe Hotdog put Linux on his machine at work with no thoughts about security. I predict it will eventually lead many businesses to ban Linux on the desktop.
  • From someone peripherally involved in this, the machine runs BeOS, but with Microworkz' own window dressing on it. I don't know what the "hybrid" deal is - as someone mentioned, BeOS is POSIX compliant, so many Unix or Linux apps could be provided. However, no X windows.

    They'll be bundling our BeOS office package, Gobe Productive. Which most definitely does NOT run on Linux.
  • I know what you mean.

    Geez. Every time I see a frustrated hypersensitive consumer in a PC store I run. It's not really fair to either consumers or PC technicians. And I said PC techs not PC enthusiasts. We have P -techs because the 30 year old stale designs of systems we work with are the result of Luddite refusing to read. If more people would read we'd be vacationing on the moon by now.

    For those of you who'll probably flame me about untested theories, I've seen you people before. Let me just say this, I don't need to step in a pile of shit to know it's a pile of shit, and I certainly don't need run lab tests on how people think to get an idea of how they think. I see people every day, and believe me some of the things they put themselves through scare the shit out of me. I really feel sorry for Luddites sometimes as much as they piss me off.

    The world isn't complicated. It's complex meaning all the difficulty arises from having billions of participants who behave according to quite simple rules of sociology.
  • Go to PriceWatch [pricewatch.com] and click on "PC", then any of the PC types -- most of the systems come configured with Linux! This is happening fast. You can get a P3-450 for $538, which includes 32 MB RAM, 4.3 GB hard drive, floppy, 45x CD, on-board video, 3D sound, 56K fax/modem -- everything but the monitor.

    I'm not certain how reliable these machines are, as I primarily purchase through Dell. I got burned by an iDot machine a year ago, and don't want to repeat the experience.

    But I've bought a couple $400 emachines, and they've performed flawlessly.

    Cheers,
    KenB
    --

  • I have one (Score:3)

    by DonkPunch ( 30957 ) on Saturday June 19, 1999 @06:36AM (#1842650) Homepage Journal
    I can't fit bagels in the slots. Half of the time, my toast comes out charred and burnt. There's no easy way to clean out the crumbs without making a mess....
  • I see this as an attempt for M$ to spread future FUD about Linux. "Once again, Windows is the only OS for serious, high end users. Linux is only used on some commercial dirt cheap systems because it's cheap and power is not important on those systems. Use Windows NT: Creating innovations of the future."

    Pull out the FUD shield!!

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