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Distro News 59

Posted by justin++ from the them-danged-foreigners dept.
sledge writes "eiT, a small German company, recently released easyLinux, a distribution targeted at beginners. Could be an interesting competitor for the 'big' boys. " We've mentioned this before, but it's actually been released now (in German - the English version should be out RSN). It looks impressive - a GUI based install, nice setup tools, etc. Does anyone know how the new stuff is licensed?
Also, Gael from Linux-Mandrake writes "We have release Mandrake6.0beta (Mariner) a few days ago and we need many many many people to test it!! :) It's available for download Thanx!!! " So, it seems as if all the news in Linux distributions for the day comes from Europe.
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  • Cost. The Red Hat boxed set (6.0) now sells for $74 US.
    Mandrake is half that, or somewhere near. While it's true that
    many users get the vanilla CD's which all cost just a few
    dollars, many others want the boxed sets or will only buy
    what appears in retail stores. Mandrake may be attractive to
    retailers should be - it's slick - but retailers have also
    been known to enter into exclusionary contracts with OS
    distributors which prevent giving shelf space to competing
    products.

    Linux4Win - Mandrake 6.0 will include a umsdos installation
    option so that disk partitioning is not required. This is great
    way for Windows users to try Linux at little risk. If they like it,
    they can then partition and do a normal installation later, after
    they have some experience. Umsdos works fine, I used
    Slackware's version at one time. You can add packages or
    rpms just like with a normal disto, and do everything like X
    and networking no problem. It is slower at *reading* files
    because of the double filesystem lookups - like reading a
    lot of tiny files, but on new equipment not enough of a
    difference to matter to home users in most situations.
    Defragmenting a dos partition with umsdos directories takes
    a lot longer, but this is not needed frequently.

    Mandrake does not install Gnome by default, as does RH.
    RH now includes Kde. Mandrake installs Kde by default.
    (Also includes Gnome for those who want to be politically
    correct). In other words, Mandrake gives new users a chance
    to experience what Linux *can* do right out the box instead
    of what it can't do so well.

    Pgcc - pentium optimized version of egcs. I don't think it
    makes much of a diference but it may be a selling point for
    some people. Also, all binaries may be pentium optimized,
    so small increases can add up over the entire system.

    European - Mandrake is a European distro. Some people
    don't want to buy another America-made OS. Others just
    don't want so much business going to RH. Especially after
    the huge increase in price RedHat has become almost as
    expensive as Windows. Some regard this as price gouging
    in a market RedHat has "locked up" or "locked in". Too
    much like MS for many people.

    Different setup utilities, help, etc. Mandrake may be easier
    to install for some new users. Both use rpm of course.
    Mandrake is in no way a distro primarily for newbies like
    EasyLinux is advertised to be. It comes with all the
    programming stuff and networking utilities. Everything you
    get with RedHat "vanilla" CD's.

    Better support for home users. RedHat is aiming for the
    commercial market. Mandrake is more oriented towards
    home users. Mandrake is primarily selling a distribution
    of Linux, not services and exended contracts to companies.
    For these and other reasons the Mandrake people may be
    much more responsive than RedHat which has a terrible
    reputation for on-line support and for releasing too early and
    then not fixing the breakage soon enough.


  • Re:Am I getting paranoid ? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    1)
    If Linux IS to be the future system running on
    desktops, it HAS to be fool proof, because a
    'simple' secretary doesn't want to be bothered
    with re-compiling the kernel, reading man pages.
    (S)He wants to log-in and start _WORKING_

    2)
    Although this is a nice starting point, which
    shows, where administration should go to, Linux
    IS a UNIX-clone. Period. And UNIX will ALWAYS be
    much more sophisticated than any WinDoze system.
    There will NEVER be an admin-tool for UNIX,
    which does not need a user to know at least a
    rudimentary knowledge of how to administer a UNIX
    system. Period.

  • Re:RSN? (Score:1)

    by whoop ( 194 )
    Real Soon Now
  • I don't mean this as a criticism, just wanted to know: now that Red Hat has KDE included in it as well, what is the major reason that one would want to use Mandrake over Red Hat. The KDE integration seemed to be their major selling point over Red Hat, otherwise pretty much the same distro.

    Appreciate any comments or insights.

  • http://www.krazynet.com/hx/ [krazynet.com]

    GPL curses-based hotline for unix. even does file transfers. who needs WINE? ;)

  • Uhuh. I love Debian, but a Pentium optimized version would be very nice (help me squeeze the last few drops out of my P166). It could take the form of an additional option in the Architecture field. Wouldn't be that hard to do, I don't think. But then again, that's probably why I only lurk on debian-policy :)
    ~luge
  • Well, it was off-topic, so it might make sense to be moderated down.
  • Indeed, it is an advantage for a beginner. A friend of mine, who i wont name, but is a VERY good windows programmer (much better than I am :) installed redhat linux, and was confronted by FVWM95. For those of you who don't know, FVWM95 is ugly. He is now convinced that GUI's on linux suck, and hasn't gotten his head around the concept of changing WM's As I said at the start, this is a advanced c/c++ programmer, not some script kiddie. The nice thing about such a setup is that there really is only one way to do most things on it, which makes learning MUCH MUCH easier. There is nothing to stop them downloading other WM's later (and, in fact, I think that about 50% of people would after a while, just to play with them. THe other 50% wern't going to change the default anyhow :) /rant :)
  • >1)
    > If Linux IS to be the future system running on
    > desktops, it HAS to be fool proof, because a
    > 'simple' secretary doesn't want to be bothered
    > with re-compiling the kernel, reading man pages.
    > (S)He wants to log-in and start _WORKING_

    Since when does a secretary have to install a system ? She comes in, she logs in, she run the fscking icon which in turn launch a favorite desktop application, and voilà !

    If something goes wrong, call the sysadmin. end of the story.

    The installation doesn't have to be done by end-users.

    greetings,
    seb.
    --
  • I started with Debian, but a combination of factors caused me to switch to Slackware after a hardware failure. Then I switched to Red Hat 4.2 after some time with Slackware because I realized I wasn't feeling up to dealing with Slack.

    I've stayed with Red Hat since, even through the-nightmare-that-was-5.1, not out of brand loyalty as much as convenience. And I don't mean the convenience of RPM's, FWIW. I've probably built 75% of the stuff that's gone in my box.

    If my machine were still just a "hobby box," I'd probably be looking at Debian again because people rave about how easy it is to upgrade and how secure it is out of the box. As it is, maybe I'll consider that once I have some cash to spring for a new hard drive and some time to goof around with getting it tweaked just so before making it LILO's default.


    ----------
    mphall@cstone.nospam.net

  • You can optimize for Pentium with Red Hat. Compile GCC and your Kernel with the options stating you have a Pentium system.
    Digital Wokan, Tribal mage of the electronics age
  • I may be no Slackware guy, but I have to agree. And your 90% sounds about right. After all, 90% of the computers out there are running Micro~1 OS's and many of those people have to be weaned off their GUI.
    I'm no exception. I was relieved to learn that Linux's command line was not very different from DOS's.
    But I enjoy working in GUI's, too. I figure I'm about 50/50 since a lot of what I do involves having several console windows open in X while I'm working on some Xprogram.
    So if any Slackware users are going after "A Life in Hell", be aware that I've got his back. (And the gang I run with carries Tomahawk missiles.)
    Digital Wokan, Tribal mage of the electronics age
  • He trademarked it so nobody else could. A while ago, some moron (I forget his name) tried to register the linux name as his own trademark and then charge a fee for each use!

    The Linux community was ticked off by this, and rightly so. Some help in clearing things up was generously given by a law firm (whose name I also forget) and the trademark was given to Linus. Linus emphasized over and over that this was strictly to keep the trademark from being misused by others.
  • Just when I get a distro that installs perfectly on my machine (Madrake 5.3) they release the latest and greatest (beta). I have to give Mandrake a big round of applause. While I find Linux to be somewhat odd still in the grand scheme of things, I am trying my best to accustom myself to it and Mandrake is one great, great distro.

    Doesn't appear to be any ISO images available yet, which is what really drew me to Mandrake. Too bad I don't have my burner working yet on the Linux side of things... well I don't have sound yet either... oh yeah and my video isn't really 100% up to snuff yet.. oh and I forgot, I want to install WINE and Hotline.. oh yeah and I want to learn how to use KDE better.. oh yeah.. and..

    Well obviously I have a way to go.
  • Can you say Rawhide? RedHat started the Rawhide releases to improve the testing process. I would say that it went much more smoothly with 6.0 than it did with 5.0.
    ---
  • What do you mean by "clean it up"? RedHat goes through an extensive test process before shipping.
    ---
  • yeah, that caught my eye too. however, it's not like this is the only distribution. managers (an it professionals, for that matter) restrict user access so they can't screw up the system. imagine the end-user who reads a little and plays around on your production system ...
  • An easy to install-easy to use OS is what 90% of the computer users want. Not everybody is willing to become a geek or simply get INTO the OS. I think it's a good thing that through different distros Linux can get to ANY user.

    Btw, RH isn't the only 'easy' distro to install... Have a look at SuSE, they have really, really nice stuff too...:)

    An NT user who hates it. Please port Photoshop and all the Macromedia tools to Linux...PLEASE!!!!
  • Redhat shipped optimizied kernels in 6.0, i586 and i686. With quite a noticable on my Celeron from Makdrake 5.3.
  • Anyone find an iso image? if you do, could you drop me an email or convince his Taconess to post it?

    Hoonis
  • People should be able to do both. Windows has little flexibility, but can be set up to do standard things out of the box. J. Random Homeuser can get ppp working quickly, can get netscape up and running, and happily be browsing for pr0n and waReZ without having to think. UNIX has a lot of flexibility, but you have to learn about stuff to use it.

    Mitch Kapor wrote an essay on this, circa 1990. He said that the holy grail of OS interfaces would be an "onion skin" design. That is, the OS gets increasingly more complex and powerful as you peel off the layers. So someone like a CEO, who simply cannot afford to waste time learning DNS setup, can fill out some idiotic wizard to get things working and move on. But a sysadmin could take that same system and turn it into a name server. To be a truly good OS, I think you need to have both of those options. As GNOME / KDE / Whatever get more advanced, this is becoming a reality.
  • You're also forgetting that this is the beauty of Linux. You don't have to use this distro. There are several distros that tailor to the exact needs that you mention. You would never find this on any other platform. It's either all or nothing for them. With Linux it can be as easy as possible with as much eye-candy as can be handled, or it can be simple, non-intuitive but highly flexible and scalaable. That is what the future is....choice.
  • FreeBSD 4.0 is now fully Pentium optimized, which is really pretty cool - every pogram on the system is EGCS'd and EGCS is the default compiler. Just thought you might want to know...
  • Don't forget that Mandrake comes in versions (or will be) coming in version optimized for AMD, P2, and pentium. Get that extra boost of power. It would be cool to get a distro optimized for multiprocessors.
  • No, but you don't buy a car and say 'What do you mean a driving lessons? I just want to go places!'

    (see this [cybercheeze.com] for a, maybe a little excaggerated, but for tech-support people very familiar 'situation').

    It is great that installation/settings are made a little easier, but things like Windows has made people lazy, and one who does not want to learn anything about computers, should not use them.

  • Pentium-optimization is cool, I wish RedHat could do that too. Perhaps Debian could release optimized versions of their distribution...?

    // Simon
  • Amusing link. I think I've seen it before.

    Following your example, I do agree that on the roads today there are still a large number of people (users) who haven't had the driving lessons (computer training) they need. But then, personal computers have not been around as long and are not in as widespread use as personal motor vehicals.

    I would guess that in most countries more households own a car than own a computer. As I say, it's only a guess, but I'm fairly confident it's correct. Even in those areas (large cities) where many people rely upon public transportation rather than a personal motor vehicals, I'd guess that in a good-sized, random sample more people would know how to operate a car than a computer.

    Motor vehicals have been around longer. Most of us probably grew up in a family with a car and got to watch how they were driven on a fairly regular basis. We may not have picked up all the details and probably needed some learning time before we were licensed, but we knew most of it. A smaller percentage of people grow up with a computer in the house. More people grow up to be familiar with cars than computers.

    In the early days of motor vehical development, cars required more tinkering, more knowledge, and more work. I believe computers--being a relatively new technology--are still close to that stage. I don't mind, in fact I love it. There's little I enjoy more than tinkering with one of my computers, but I don't mind the people who don't want to tinker. Afterall, I don't want to have to tinker with my car. I know how to drive it, I add gas, oil, and transmission fluid as appropriate, and I'm happy that it gets me to where I want to go. However, I don't know how to rebuild it's engine, and I don't really want to learn. When the engine makes a funny noise, I take it in to the shop. Afterall, why should I be tuning my car when I have better things to do like tuning my computer?

    Similarly, why should anyone who just wants to read email and browse the web at home have to know how to build a kernel or perform a complex install for an application? I want to do those things, but they don't. The car manufacturers and mechanics should make things easy for me, and the OS manufacturers/distributers and techs should make things easy for the computer users who want them easy. The car buffs can still tinkering under the hood of their cars, and I can still tinkering under the hood of my PC.

    Tinkering should always be an option, never a necessity.
  • Looks pretty good to me. This should encourage even more sideliners to jump onto Linux. From the looks of things, it might be a no-brainer for most beginners. It seems to have a lot of devices listed just like Win9x.
  • Does anybody out there know if you can install Mandrake over a previous RedHat installation (as an upgrade)? Is the rpm format compatible? I know I should STFS (search the fucking site) and I will do so in a minute, but I'm just looking for insights/flames.
  • Sadly, yes. The first symptom of paranoia is a mistaken belief that what benefits others threatens you. IMO, if a simple distro enables schools to move to Linux, the students will graduate as Linux lovers. So lets hear it for simple distros. IMHO, those students will move to Debian when they understand the difference between apt-get and all other package managers out there but thats a side issue.
  • Naughty geek, no biscuit.

    Yes, learning an OS in and out and making the best possible use of it is a great thing. And there's nothing wrong with thumping your chest a little because of having that expertise. However, acting like a fan of an indie band who screams "Sellouts!" because that band managed to get a major-label record contract is laughable.

    Some Linux-lovers seem to forget that Linux is a tool, not a secret society. Tools are made for people to use. It is not somehow *bad* for those "horrible, clueless users" to be able to use Linux. And it is not *good* for potential new users of a computer OS to be snarled at by self-important elitists who feel proprietary about that OS.

    Eric the .5b
  • Posted by F1reB1rd:

    Hi,

    I had a quick look, and I must say, I'm impressed. I am also creating a distro (yes another one), aimed at students, and home users (more at students, while I don't pay for bandwidth to other students). There are 4 people working on it at the moment.

    We will give the choice of various WM's, and install GTK and Qt as a matter of course. We will have an rpm and deb and pkgtool-supporting database (hurrah!) and we will have graphical config tools for all the servers we package, and be all user-friendly (but not user-sichophantic).

    Well, enough plugging... our minimal pages (while we are hacking on the tools) can be found at http://lunariX.org. The site will be updated later, as soon as there's something worth looking at.
  • But I really think that distros like this are the way of the future for about 90% of users. Simple install that doesn't require you do do nearly as much real work? I'd like to use that. That said, I'm a console junkie, so I'll be sticking to the more advanced distros, but my mother uses linux, and this sort of distro she could operate (she is reasonably technically adept for a windows user, but no expert/geek :)
  • I think most of Linux users begin with some distribution and after some time they try out an other one. I am wondering whether it is usual
    to change completely. It would be interesting to know:
    - how long has somebody used a distribution before deciding to change
    - how many other distributions he/she tried
    - what are the rates of change (from - to)

  • It would be nice if they'd given users a multiple choice on tools to install. For example: vi, emacs, joe, or pico. Netscape or Lynx. FTP or NCFTP. KDE, Gnome, WindowMaker, FVWM, or AfterStep.
    I realize there are more options in each of those categories. I'm just listing the first ones to come to mind.
    But at least with such a system, users would still know they're getting each of the tools they want. And optional tools could have a None option.
    As is though, easyLinux doesn't really remove the choice. You just have to learn enough to be able to download and install different tools that you may want.
    Take my Windoze box, I couldn't stand the limitations of Notepad for basic text editing, so I got Notepad++ instead. I didn't want an unstable browser tied to an already unstable OS. So I got Netscape. (At least when it crashes, it doesn't take half my system with it.)
    I'm still learning Linux. So I'm trying all kinds of programs out. Most of which weren't included with my distribution (Mandrake 5.3).
    So all is not lost. A determined newbie wants to know he/she can have a working system quickly for peace of mind, and then they'll start experimenting with the options. I, personally, was a little unsure what to install when presented with all my options. And I didn't get my system the way I wanted until I had tried at least 10 different full re-installs.

    Digital Wokan, Tribal mage of the electronics age
  • Its all about the Caldera Open Linux 2.2 install. I installed it the other day, and wow. You can even play Tetris while its installing. The install is multi-tasking. Its fast, easy. KDE wm with a few themes.

    I love the install, and it works good, but there is a lot of things that are not there. I think I like Debian the best right now.
  • ..ladies and gentleman. I've seen their screenshots and they're great if one is used to gui installation tools.

    Most important for "us" they still allow what they call advanced or pro mode during install.

    What we might find a bit disturbing is the fact that they include only KDE (from what I read) and don't let the user choose between different wm/de but for the beginner this can be a great advantage.

    What I dislike is the fact that they do not ship most of the sources with their CD(s?) they can however be obtained on cd for a small fee or downloaded from their ftp.

    cu
    --

  • Am I getting paranoid ? (Score:3)

    by Dinsdale ( 15098 ) on Saturday May 15, 1999 @05:16PM (#1890642)
    "Further, easyLinux is strongly restricted to specific tools and programs, to protect the beginner from the killing diversity of applications, that nearly all do the same thing."

    I must be getting paranoid.I keep thinking..just replace the name "easyLinux" with "Windows". Yes diversity kills! My God you may be put in a situation where you might *learn* something.Have to ask questions,read a man page or hack it your self . All joking aside I suppose, if Linux is to migrate to the desktops of the world, install's must become more user friendly.I just have a concern that, if you hide the dirty details of what goes on under the hood from the average user, you are becoming like the other big O/S's that keep the user deaf,dumb & blind. Ah well..maybe it's time for Prozac in my diet.

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