Ask Slashdot: Handheld Linux, Today? 86
Jesse Montrose asks:
"I'd like to find out what others are doing about the urge
to carry Linux around. I currenly live in Linux on a
Thinkpad 560, but it's something of a commitment to bring
along with me. Linux on a Psion series5 is exciting, and
I'll keep an eye on
their progress, a 340MB CFFlash would hold a nice
text-only distribution. The various mini-laptops are also
interesting, if weak on battery life (ie the Libretto,
IBM's PC110, and the sexy new VAIO PCG-C1 which is due in
the US around March 15). There are a lot of active projects,
but is anyone using a handheld Linux solution right now
that they recommend?"
nthomas isn't so picky.
All he wants is a "handheld...in the $500-$1300 range".
What say you all?
Eh? (Score:1)
Palmtop Linux (Score:1)
There is also a work in progress port to the Psion5 and the Geofox.
The biggest problem is GUI, but I'm hoping glueing together mini-x and Bogl or some similar tools will solve that problem. The other myth is that unix is too bulky for a PDA. V7 ran on a machine that makes the psion5 look like a supercomputer.
Alan
Windows CE hardware for Linux (Score:1)
http://www.casio.com/hpc/e-100.cfm
There are some people who are thinking about making this happen: GCC Target for mips-based windows(R) CE handhelds
http://hyperion.clc.cc.il.us/~arty/
Here are the NEC Hardware specs for the MIPS-based CPUs that are used in the Cassiopeias:
http://www.necel.com/home.nsf/CreatePage?OpenAg
Perhaps companies like Algorithmics Ltd. might be interested in helping to port Linux to another MIPS platform?
http://www.algor.co.uk/algor/info/porters.html
Here are a few more references for those who are interested in Linux on more than x86.
Current ports of Linux OS:
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/xose/linux/linux_ports.
Compaq's ITSY PDA which is running Linux and other GNU software:
http://www.research.digital.com/wrl/itsy/
GNUton:
http://www.gnuton.com/
Libreto (Score:1)
Unfortunately the only public NFS server w/ slackware we could find was in China so it took about a week to install. But it works great, and having a portable UNIX is just cool.
--
Charles P. Wright
cpwright@villagenet.com
http://cpwright.villagenet.com/
Itsy (Score:1)
Why would you want anything simpler? (Score:1)
You are a
Hand-helds are for the "technologically challenged" ( read : the people who find "point and click" too hard ).
This may seem like a very trite and patronizing attitude, but as someone who has written applications on handhelds, I know the general level of technological expertise of that end of the user base all too well.
Believe me, it's not a pretty sight.
Toshiba Libretto 20ct (Score:1)
It's a 486/75 that comes with a 270MB hd.
I recommend upgrading that immediately.
I picked up a 4G HD for it on onsale. cost me under $200. it runs a standard rh5.2 distro quite easily. I had to do a bit of mucking around with loadlin to get the install going, but since I had a local NFS server, it was no big deal.
There are a bunch of links off of the 'adorable libretto' page to get you up and running quickly, so dont worry about 'no support'
It's got a combo nic/modem card and it was extremely easy to get configured for home/work/hotels/etc.
I would totally recommend this machine or it's predecessors for a carry-around machine. it doesn't take up any space in my bag even with an extra battery and power supply. I can even pop it in my coat pocket if I feel like travelling light.
As far as usability goes, I'm extremely impressed. The keyboard is small, but what do you expect for such a tiny machine? once you get the hang of it, it's no big deal. The pointer is a little funky too, but I dont do a lot of mousing anyway.
all in all, I dig it.
PocketBSD (Score:2)
http://www02.u-page.so-net.ne.jp/ca2/takemura/
takemura-san's webpage is mostly in japanese, but enjoy the pictures!
mustapha
Refund Day on WinCE machines? :) (Score:1)
Perfect(?) Laptop - Toshiba Portege 3010CT (Score:1)
-Mark
Built in Camera (Score:1)
Did you get that to work?
Carrying Linux around (Score:1)
I disagree also about handhelds being just for information access. Handhelds are great for filling out forms, and will do in a pinch for writing email or a letter. Good for games too. The 'Jupiter' WinCE devices would be outstanding for most peoples computing needs -- truly portable, long battery life, instant on (!), more rugged (no HD), etc. -- if only the OS didn't suck. The Sharp TelMail would be a slick little email machine with a few improvements and a non-proprietary way of dialing-up...
Basicly, I think most people's work could be done easier with specialized devices than with desktop machines. There's value in having a common low-level OS underneath them, and a GNU/GPL one best of all. What's needed is for porting work to continue alongside the development of a handheld-appropriate desktop/window manager. And then some distros. (At this point I'm talking somewhat out my butt, 'cause I don't program.)
Somewhere I read Linus saying something to this effect -- that handheld space is the next important arena. Anyone remenber where?
WinCE = bad? (Score:1)
On a palmtop, you want to do things with one tap or gesture whenever possible. That's not something a 'start' bar does very well (start--> address book--> name field--> (letter/s)--> find--> done, or more...). You get the idea. Now, there are reports that MS is still working on major revisions of CE, so things should improve there.
'WinCE sucks' was probably a bit dramatic. I'd say more that it's mediocre, like most MS software. Still, it may be the best choice out there in some respects. Your other choices are presumably palm or epoc (psion), later on maybe Apeiron (Sony). Finally, the best hope is probably for the porting of some scripting languages (perl, python, tcl/tk) to different handheld OSes.
You might also browse around http://www.pdadash.com/news/ , a pda news site I like.
I run Linux on my phone (Score:1)
*Sniff sniff*
*Sniff sniff*
I smell passwords!
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product
Windows CE hardware for Linux (Score:1)
-russ
Libretto (Score:2)
The 50CT will do 640x480, and some of the newer models (100CT and 110CT) will do 800x480. Both can do 1024x768 (or higher?) on an external monitor.
Windows CE hardware for Linux (Score:1)
I still prefer my PalmPilot, but I would be interested in attempting to develop Linux for it.
Linux on the PCG-C1X (Score:2)
The machine is pretty nice. The keyboard is fairly large, considering, and the feel is acceptable. The 1024x480 provides a fair amount of screen space, if oddly shaped. With a few utilities added, it takes the place of a low-end digital camera, a portable music CD player (MP3s), and makes a nice portable development box.
The base box is a pretty penny right now (~$2300) though that will probably drop over time. I was looking at a Libretto, but decided to go for broke (sic.) All of the built-in hardware (except for the camera -- still looking at that) appears to be supported just fine under Linux.
I think I prefer the 1024x480 screen resolution over 800x600. I can fit two Xterms comfortably side by side in 1024x480, which is harder to do in 800x600.
The technology is certainly interesting to watch. The PCG-C1X strikes me as being almost a concept laptop that snuck out into production. Give it five years, and you could have a laptop with built-in DVD, 5 hours of useful battery life, a better built-in camera, and wireless connectivity. Phone, video-condferencing, music, movies, digital photography, word processing, software development, etc. all in a hand held box. The social/cultural changes from that could be interesting.
The crap I carry... Cell phone, GPS, REX, Rio... (Score:2)
Palmtop Linux (Score:1)
Mini-x and Bogl sounds interesting. Any links?
I too have been thinking about the Jupiter (Phillips' StrongARM-based WinCE entry), but am worried that sufficiently detailed HW information wont be available and overriding the WinCE might prove impossible.
Mmmm....Itsy (Score:1)
Why would you want anything simpler? (Score:1)
The other major reason: Playing MP3's in the car -- IMHO much more flexible than most of the specialized solutions out there right now and it costs about the same.
--
Wearable? Linux on the PCG-C1X (Score:1)
With the Sony Glasstron [mindflux.com.au], or one of the many choices at Stereo3d [stereo3d.com],
Anyone have any experience with CPD for mobile wearable use, or 802.11/Blue Tooth for inter office use?
Linux already on Palm devices (Score:1)
Generalisations don't work... (Score:2)
It's a question of whether you need the power of Linux on a handheld or not - if you develop on Linux, go for it, but if you just need address/calendar/notes etc, something like a Pilot or a Psion is cheaper and gets the job done quicker, compared to a more general purpose platform like Linux.
I've got nothing against Linux but I don't have enough of a desire to carry it in my shirt pocket, though of course it does run on a PalmPilot and I now have a 4MB Palm IIIx, so I could do
Eh? (Score:1)
Itsy - They don't like money (Score:1)
Maybe this can go to poll section...
Linux already on Palm devices (Score:1)
However, I'm unsure if it supports the new DragonBall EZ processor in the new Palm V and IIIx. If/when I get some additional information, I am planning on flashing it onto my IIIx and starting to develop some PalmOS-like apps for it.
I want to be able to whip out my Palm, look up phone numbers, etc, and when I hit the memo pad button, I want to see VIM come up in a text console
the need for Unix on handhelds (Score:1)
I'm not always around my desktop, but I if I had a handheld running a free Unix, I could do 80% of my work on that, mostly coding.
Why are handhelds running Win9x so much more in demand than WinCE? Because people want to be able to integrate data with their desktop PC, and if you are running the same OS, this is painless.
Well, my desktop OS is Linux, so I want a Linux handheld for the same reasons. Heck, I don't even need to run XFree86, but it's really comforting to know that some daring Libretto owners have managed to do it. [picante.com]
Dev for pilots on Linux (Score:2)
Palmtop Linux (Score:1)
-- Important Revelation Coming Through -- (Score:1)
(Oart of the reason why FreeBSD is so popular over here is that they've put a lot more effort into allowing applications that can handle two-byte character codes into the standard set of ports and packages. In fact, there's a set of apps for Japanese, another for Chinese, another for Korean, and so on, and all you have to have is a link to the Internet in order to get them built and running.)
Carrying Linux around - point missed (Score:1)
the reason to have linux on a palmtop is to circumvent the hideously overpriced development platforms that winCE and all other palm OS's have. I would love to write apps for my PIIIx and my wince box.. but I dont have time to learn some cryptic os quirks and what bugs to avoid (wince only here) if I can run linux and X on my PalmIIIx then I can write a simple tcl/tk program to do the chemical analysis input plug into a cradle and instantly upload to the server. with regular palm os I have to develop tons of things and then try and get a stupid "conduit" to talk across the network. A free OS on a palm platform would take the death grip that software houses have on these devices and give the geeks of
I carry linux every day (Score:2)
BTW: the PalmIII is the only real hand held computer with the super fast dragon-ball processor... and there is a linux port in the works! (A dirty rumor i heard)
Portable Linux (Score:1)
Windows CE hardware for Linux (Score:2)
A usable portable Linux system should fit into 20M of flash memory, but you can get around 150M now in Compact Flash cards, which should make a pretty good distribution (including a small X windows installation).
Of course, the Pilot-like CE hardware is pretty good, too. But for any Pilot-like device, Linux kind of lacks the applications.
Still, since nothing like that exists yet, I just bought an Omnibook 800. You may be able to still find one for around $700. They have 166MHz MMX Pentiums, weight 4 pounds, and are smaller than most notebooks. But the battery life is pretty limited.
In the long term, I'm actually more interested in handhelds and lightweight portables that run PersonalJava--if I'm going to write GUI apps for a portable, I'd like to do it in a language and environment that makes it easy, and Java is a good compromise between power and simplicity for GUI apps in my experience. And once I write to Java, it doesn't matter much to me whether there is Linux or some other OS underneath it.
The crap I carry... Cell phone, GPS, REX, Rio... (Score:1)
It's a rare day when I'm carrying all at once
Seems that a general purpose OS like Linux plus some highly specialized drivers to interface with the GPS, cell phone and pager units would do the trick.
What other devices/capabilities need unifying in this way?
faster, smaller, simpler..? (Score:1)
Linux on a Libretto 100 is fast, small and very usable.
When you can use emacs to code in X, or the console to play quake, whether sitting on a train, standing in a queue, or sitting in a cafe, why would you want anything simpler?
Pick one of these up cheap and don't look back.
Libreto (Score:1)
WinCE = bad? (Score:1)
Hmm.. (Score:1)
X even started up on the first try.
Battery life is the only drawback... ~2 hours on a standard battery (I have two).
My Recommendation too. (Score:1)
PC/104, Standard HDs and VNC (Score:1)
I hasten to add that I've not done this myself, but would like to. What you really need is a wireless connection between the PDA and the server. Then the server & batteries live in a bum-bag, and the PDA can be waved around.
No need to connect wires to PCs either.
We can dream. Vik :v)
Linux on a Velo 1 (Score:1)
PC104/Laptop hard drives? (Score:1)
Mike
--
Palmtop Linux (Score:1)
when you find one... (Score:1)
the later models have the 166 mhz and expand to 80 mb. ram
my early (133) model can do 640x480x16 and 800x600x8 color; the later model might go 800x600x16.
i like it a lot, even though i've only had it a week. i still need to compile apm in cuz it doesn't auto shutdown right.
---
john
Carrying Linux around (Score:1)
Also, most people miss the point completely of what a palm computing device is for. They were not designed to be a primary input device, but rather to be more of an information query device.
We are writing business applications for the Palm computing device. We allow simple queries on the device that then connect either via the internet or over an 800 number for real time information access for inventory & ordering from our system. The most complex thing you can expect someone to enter is a short note.
Using Linux on such a device is overkill delux. In fact, the Palm OS is probably overkill.
"Linux everywhere" is just as silly a goal as "Windows everywhere". Just because a pipe wrench will adjust to fit any size nut doesn't mean it is the proper tool for the job.
But if you really must carry Linux around 100% of the time, do what I do. Install it on a 3 pound Sony 505FX. (266mhz pentium w/MMX)
Palmtop Linux (Score:1)
HP Journada (Score:1)
We will need WinCE-WINE to run some of the canned apps. And a SAMBA port. This could be a lifetime job for the right person...
LinuxPPC on the upcoming P1? (Score:1)
Re: Windows CE hardware for Linux (Score:1)
WinCE sucks on that peice of hardware and I don't think it would be too difficult to port.
A.
Linux on the PCG-C1X (Score:1)
I've done the same thing, and I have to say it is a sweet system. I dunno if I'd use $2300 of my own cash for it (my company paid for it), but I was looking for something simple to do some work on the road, and I just know It would be useless to do anything without a keyboard (no Palms), and I barfed at the thought of the WinCE machines, and the Psions looked like a poorly supported environment.
So, I caught one of these things at the local CompUSA, and said Wow. Went home to look at the specs more carefully, then went back to pick it up.
The machine itself is gorgeous, and linux runs very well on it (why not? 266MMX, 64MB/4.3GB, great display, etc). And the ergonomics are a fair comprimise considering it's size.
Now, just gotta figure out how to get that camera up under linux
-SteveK
Tiny server: $500 Calibri (Score:1)
Use your Linux Laptop (Score:1)
So use your Linux laptop for your data. Configure it as a server to give access to your various desktop machines.
At boot time you can choose a boot configuration which identifies your current location. Or else have a script which changes the identity (IP, DNS, printers) and makes the various services reread configuration. There are at least two examples on the Web of this. (I'm using the boot-time config as I haven't taken the time to try the other method yet)
-- Important Revelation Coming Through -- (Score:1)
Apparently it is possible to put BSD on a Windows CE thing. This seems especially wierd since the "regular" version only runs on x86 processors. Would somebody please explain this to me (using words of less than five letters)?
P.S.: It seems like a lot of the action in the FreeBSD world is happening over in Japan. In fact, when a friend of mine wanted a FreeBSD book, I couldn't find one in English that had been written less than a few years ago. Meanwhile, 20 Japanese books have been released in the past six months, most with cute anime guys on the cover. So the question is, is there a good online course in Japanese?
HP Journada (Score:1)
Psion5 (Score:1)
I love my Psion Series 5. It is the only handheld I've been able to find that combines a great keyboard which I can actually type fast on, with a good battery life and a small enough form factor that I can carry it everywhere. I really have a need to type, thus I still haven't bought a Palm Pilot.
Now if I could run Linux on my Psion, that would be very cool indeed. Of course, the apps that come with the Psion are quite useful and easy to use too - there would definitely be some tradeoffs to loading Linux and losing the built in apps. The built in OPL language is not really fun to hack with, and the optional C/C++ package was a little overpriced last time I checked.
Until then, does anyone know of a Linux utility that can sync with, or otherwise backup files from the Series 5?. I would really like to delete my Win98 partition, and the Psion sync program is the only thing that forces me to keep it
Psion5 (Score:1)
More handheld OS links and thoughts (Score:1)
GPS - I carry around a Garmin 12XL now, and it really bugs me that I can't customize the interface the way I would like.
map display - Several GPS units do this now and some palmtops interface with GPS units, though the combination is too bulky for my tastes.
paging - I'd like to be able to access a LEO satellite two-way paging network (e.g. http://www.orbcomm.com), a ground based network if available and cheaper, and send a page directly to another unit if it is less than a few km away.
phone - I could dispense with this function if only everyone else had paging ability. A big market though.
camera/photo quality display - an integrated camera design such as the Sony PCG is one solution, or something that slides into a PC slot with a pivoting lens (like Nikon's or Agfa's) would also work. A very high resolution screen (e.g. HDTV: 1080x1960) at 300dpi would work well for displaying photos to friends and for checking the photo quality at time of capture.
voice recognition - for document entry, paging, etc.
Of course none of the above is Linux specific, but if I were to buy a device with another OS (such as EPOC32) for this device, the burden of proof would be on the alternative. It would have to be faster, require less power for a given function, or have some advantage over an OS that is free and for which I already have a small amount of familiarity.
Links: in addition to the links previously mentioned,
Alternative OS http://www.altos.org.uk for reviews on PalmOS, Epoc32 and others
Pocket Unix Bookmarks http://cmcind.far.ruu.nl/gillies/bookmarks/pocket
Embedded Cygnos OS (eCos) http://www.sourceware.cygnos.com - I'm not sure if this OS is really aimed at Palmtop computing, or if it is for more traditional embedded applications, but there is some interesting stuff here.
"The GNU Public License [...] means in practice that application developers have to make the sources available. In the embedded systems market this requirement is generally considered unacceptable and many companies refuse to use any GPL'd code as a result. This would reduce the uptake of eCos, and we want as many people as possible to use the system."
There is also a good overview of Operating Systems at http://www.tunes.org/Review/OSes.html with many links.
Carrying Linux around (Score:1)
I also agree with your quote on what palm is for, a query device.
The point that I think that we are missing in this discussion is that people (including myself) want more out a "palm device" than just query-ability.
A device that allows us to do many of the mondane, boring tasks that we all do everyday, where-ever and when-ever we want (assuming wireless life exists). We could do things like responding to the 100's of e-mail we all get everyday, like checking the status of all our systems, like fixing little problems that arise on our systems just to name a few silly ones.
I sure would like to do these things while watching Futurama, or X-Files, or while waiting for my next micro-brew to arrive while I am at 20-Tanks would'nt you?
Is there linux for Newtons? (Score:1)
Is there a linux for Apple's discontinued/unsupported Newton hardware?
I've got a vintage Newton eMate that I'm not doing much with...just curious.