Matthew Garrett Forks the Linux Kernel 688
jones_supa writes: Just like Sarah Sharp, Linux developer Matthew Garrett has gotten fed up with the unprofessional development culture surrounding the kernel. "I remember having to deal with interminable arguments over the naming of an interface because Linus has an undying hatred of BSD securelevel, or having my name forever associated with the deepthroating of Microsoft because Linus couldn't be bothered asking questions about the reasoning behind a design before trashing it," Garrett writes. He has chosen to go his own way, and has forked the Linux kernel and added patches that implement a BSD-style securelevel interface. Over time it is expected to pick up some of the power management code that Garrett is working on, and we shall see where it goes from there.
Linux is Dying (Score:5, Funny)
It is now official. Netcraft has confirmed: Linux is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Linux community when IDC confirmed that Linux market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that Linux has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Linux is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be the Amazing Kreskin to predict Linux's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Linux faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Linux because Linux is dying. Things are looking very bad for Linux. As many of us are already aware, Linux continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
All major surveys show that Linux has steadily declined in market share. Linux is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If Linux is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. Linux continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, LInux is dead.
Re: (Score:2)
Whoosh? The "article" seems to be completely sarcastic. Citing IDC and Netcraft is a dead giveaway.
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It is now official. Netcraft has confirmed: Linus Torvalds is a meanie.
Sincerely, good luck (Score:5, Interesting)
How it should be (Score:5, Insightful)
This is how it's supposed to work. Whether he can make a functioning team or not is an open question, but at least he can see if a more polite environment gets better results.
Re:How it should be (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly I predict that many comments here won't get that. They will instead call him a pussy because he couldn't stand the heat, and acted like a girl by leaving. Let's see if I'm right.
Re:How it should be (Score:4, Insightful)
If that is girl like behavior in your eyes,
Mildly OT, but let's not use "girl" as an insult, mmmkay?
Re: (Score:2)
Good on you for putting wotrk in and not just words in. I'm interested to see how many contributors will support the fork.
If he succeds and develops another good variant of the kernel, great, if not, there's always the kernel as it is, no bad can come from this.
Re: (Score:2)
When Eich was removed from Mozilla, Mozilla immediately implemented DRM.
I was thinking that only me had noticed that. Good to know I'm not the only one. ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
someone thinks Linus is problematic for political reasons
More or less ensuring that people who would have to do real work on this, for free, probably aren't going to be interested for very long. Now if this project has extreme technical merit, there will no doubt be a push to get it merged back in the kernel once it proves itself out.
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Problem is Linus in terms of Linux has been granted God Like reputation. And no one is willing to dispute his power. He may had been a nice guy back in the 1990's but the power had made him more willing to just speak his mind, and not listen to the little guys.
I personally like to hire people who is willing to tell me I am wrong so I can learn.
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I personally like to hire people who is willing to tell me I am wrong so I can learn.
Linus didn't hire Garrett.
I'm fairly sure Linus is more than happy to be told he's wrong. Problem is, there aren't many people capable of legitimately doing this, and he has to spend far too much of his life dealing with the rest.
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Lol, what can a Harvard MBA teach Linus about management? He already leads one of the largest, most difficult, and most successful multinational efforts in human history.
Re:Sincerely, good luck (Score:5, Insightful)
I want you to seriously think about how easy it's going to be to remove someone from any community that's preventing the shit that ended up on firefox.
Corporation and/or Government: "We want mandatory tracking in XXX"
XXX project lead: "No way, not going to happen"
Rando on Twitter: "XXX project lead is a bigot"
< Ensuing twitter storm and articles about XXX project lead >
XXX project lead: "People are sending me things in the mail and threatening my family, I have to step down"
Corporation and/or Government: "We want mandatory tracking in XXX"
New XXX project lead: "Sure thing boss."
I see a lot of parallels with other things I've seen going on over the last year. Like this for example
https://www.reddit.com/r/progr... [reddit.com]
Labeling someone as a "bigot" is just a convenient way to get people to attack them or feel better about attacking them, allegations true or not.
Benefit to end users? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't actually mean to sound snide but can someone explain to me why I should care about this as an end user? TFS reads like someone got their panties in a bunch over some arcane detail and couldn't bear to not get his way. Is there some amazing benefit to users in this or is this just some developer having a snit because Linus disagreed with his preferences?
Re:Benefit to end users? (Score:5, Interesting)
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I assume there is nothing preventing this fork from contributing patches to the mainline kernel, and the mainline providing/porting patches to the fork assuming internal politics and code quality is in order. I can only see benefit for both sides.
Besides a hot puff of air while (slightly) publicizing some of the internal politics of the LKML (Linux Kernel Mailing List), that was exactly my thought as well.
If it does get picked up by any distros, it is very likely that only a patch made from it will be picked up. Redhat, for example, does that type of stuff all the time, and also backports many features. That's the way distros should work.
I had no idea what securelevel was, so I looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
It does sound somewhat us
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
You get 'securelevel', an API designed to further lock down 'jails' so that compromises of root privileges within a jail cannot harm the host. Maybe that's important to you. I know this kind of thing is very important to hosting services and I'm pretty sure Matthew Garrett isn't a hobbyist doing this work for fun, so someone cares about it.
Matthew is at least forking over specific technical differences. Maybe there is a big, pent up demand for a non-Linus controlled fork. If so, Matthew could acquire so
Re:Benefit to end users? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't actually mean to sound snide
Yeah you do, otherwise you wouldn't have said this:
TFS reads like someone got their panties in a bunch over some arcane detail and couldn't bear to not get his way
Guy gets finally fed up with dealing with insane LKML politics and decides to have his own tree with his own patches. Guy isn't some rando, guy is a long term contributor to the mailing list.
TFA also makes note of another long term technically respected contributor leaving the kernel because of insane LKML politics.
You should probably care because the politics driving away good people means that inevitably the quality will go down when those good people find more enjoyable places to work. And good people always have options.
The thing is many people confuse beinf honest and technically sound with being a raging douchebag. They're not actually the same and you can in fact give honest, harsh technical feedback without being a dick about it. The LKML seems to actualely valye the "being a dick" part over even the technical parts of arguments.
Anyway you shoudl care because the kernel maintainers are overworked and some are leaving because the remaining ones like being dicks.
Re:Benefit to end users? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your work is all i care about. Its a meritocracy.
Except it isn't because two long term, well respected contributors have left not because of code, quality or merit but because of the toxic mailing list.
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Yes two have fallen, others will take their place.
Sure, but don't pretend it's a meritocracy.
It's an assholeocracy with a quite high level of technical competence required.
There is quite a large difference.
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In the real world there are assholes that stand in your way and you have to find a way to deal with them.
Unless you have some religious or other vocation and have to accept them, the easiest way is to walk away from assholes if they are in a position of power over you.
Unless you are really good at internal politics, picking fights with your superiors is generally a pointless exercise.
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LKML is only about the merits of the code you submit..
No it isn't. If it was, then people would stick to discussing the code and personal insults would not be there. Telling someone they're "deepthroating microsoft" is not a comment on the quality of the code and it's not about merit or lack thereof. It's a personal attack.
The two are completely orthogonal.
Let's see what the definition of "meritocracy" is":
Meritocracy (merit, from Latin mereÅ "I earn" and -cracy, from Ancient Greek ÎÏÎ
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This is a snit really, but it is something where Linus doesn't like the feature, and this guy has been on the other end of a Linus blow-up and seen many others.
I'll say this much, it is well known how Linus goes off. Some justify it as Linus only blowing up after he's annoyed constantly by something or someone. And some believe that is the same as wife-beater giving warnings before bitch-slapping his target down.
The reality is, unless this change is groundbreaking, or extremely desired, nothing is going t
less malware, hacks. More, better devs for more fe (Score:3)
Are you asking about the benefit of securelevel or the benefit of a fork that doesn't have an asshole culture?
Securelevel is of benefit to systems that run for a long time in the same configuration, making them more secure. This applies to many servers. Basically, it separates having the machine RUNNING from the setup process of CONFIGURING the machine. 99% of the time, the machine is in run mode (securelevel > 1) and in this state it's configuration can not be changed. To change the configuration,
Slashdot does not like less-than sign (Score:2)
"Configuration mode" would be securelevel less than 1. Or indeed less than zero. Theoretically, different levels could allow different levels of configuration changes - one level could allow you to add email aliases, but not allow you to set it as an open relay.
Re:Benefit to end users? (Score:5, Interesting)
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You won't care. Not a single mainstream user of the kernel will switch to this fork.
To tell you the true, I hope that some of them do. It could even be a good idea if Linus do some incentive to that.
It's time to really settle if nice communications, SJW style, matters more than coding competence.
Re:Benefit to end users? (Score:5, Funny)
For far too long, Linux has discriminated against "differently abled" code, with all its segregationist notions of kernel-vs-userspace. And even within userspace, could the very word "permissions" get any closer to "privilege"???
At long last, viruses we have historically relegated to the slums of Windows will finally have the right to run in the ivory sandbox of Linux - We need "Runtime Justice" for all code, whether CLI or GUI, whether drivers or devices, whether signed or malware!
There is no such thing as an "illegal" instruction!
securelevel who? (Score:5, Informative)
Just for the people who don't know what the fuck securelevel is [unix.com] (NetBSD's flavor in this case)
Not going back to Linux, but this really is a worthwhile addition.
Re:securelevel who? (Score:5, Interesting)
Just for the people who don't know what the fuck securelevel is [unix.com] (NetBSD's flavor in this case)
Not going back to Linux, but this really is a worthwhile addition.
Furthermore, should something like this be omitted simply because Linus doesn't like it? Is his opinion the only one that counts? Among other things, securelevel is used to implement "jails" but the functionality can be completely disabled (securelevel = -1) -- so Linus can turn it off if he wants.
Is the direction in which Linux is driven simply the whim of people like Linus and Lennart who dictate "my way or the highway"? They are smart, capable, talented people, but not omniscient Gods - despite what they and some others might think.
Re:securelevel who? (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, should something like this be omitted simply because Linus doesn't like it? Is his opinion the only one that counts?
Since he is the repo owner, yes, his opinion is the only one that counts in the end.
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Furthermore, should something like this be omitted simply because Linus doesn't like it? Is his opinion the only one that counts?
Since he is the repo owner, yes, his opinion is the only one that counts in the end.
Ya, I get that, but it doesn't really answer my question of "should". One person can have a great vision, but that doesn't mean it's the only great vision.
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Yes, if you are the owner you *should* have the last say. That's the whole point of being the *owner*.
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Amazingly enough, one's attitude (while forking) might actually result in a negative response. I don't see much in the way of negativity in this particular case - good on them for trying. However, nobody's obligated to do your work for you. If you want a feature or function then add it. If you can't then you're shit out of luck or you can pay somebody who can. Being able to modify the code is the whole point of free - a secondary aspect is the price but that's not the point.
If you can't weld and work as a m
Re:securelevel who? (Score:5, Informative)
There's no hand waving required. The source is available. Why not download it and have a peek? You'll be famous if you find what you're claiming is there.
Hopefully he will maintain it in sync (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully he will keep his branch in sync and offer back his contributions like other developers who have done the same thing.
Many developers felt that working on the main Linux kernel tree involved too much politics and in-fighting and chose to maintain their own dev branches for their patches. Any that keep their trees in sync have successfully continued to contribute, and left the politics for when their projects were ready for merging. Any that didn't keep in sync, well . . . at least we don't worry about those projects anymore.
Panic (Score:5, Funny)
The ideal Linux kernel fork would panic if it detected a systemd infection.
Time will tell (Score:2)
Not really (Score:5, Informative)
Branching happens all the time, either to develop a feature or because it's doing something that upstream won't accept. One man maintaining his own patches isn't a fork. A fork would imply that that you're planning to diverge from or replace the project you branched from, nothing in his post indicates he wants to compete with Linux or the LKML. He's just saying I'll make my own patches and provide them for those who want them, but I'm not going to bother trying to upstream them. Kinda like Debian and Ubuntu, Canonical made a lot of patches for Debian but they weren't trying to fork it. They just rebased off it every six months, being a downstream variation. He's making a downstream variation with some interface from BSD. Big whoop.
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Well, there is this:
https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/3... [dreamwidth.org]
Whatever judgement call you want to make (I hate the phrase SJW because it is pretty much used indiscriminately toward folks who have legitimate gripes and those who are senselessly whining).
I personally have found Linus' perspective a bit refreshing. He will call out bad code, erring on the side of brutal honesty. I've seen way too many projects fall pray to the other phenomenon, everyone is too polite and in fear of discouraging folks, and ends up acc
New angle of attack ? (Score:2)
The last round of big attacks on Linux happened abound 2003-2004. Remember SCO, Laura DiDio, Ken Brown, Ballmer, etc ?
Those were external attacks and it only made the community stick together even closer.
Now a bit of astroturfing, staging some discontent inside the community. After all, nothing divides a community the way success does. Looks like a short-lived stunt.
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Popcorn ? (Score:2)
Is it worth getting a large box of it and watching the fun or will it all be over by the time that I am back from the shop ?
It could work. (Score:5, Funny)
Remember that forks sometimes do succeed.
Take Linux. It forked from OpenBSD which itself was forked from QNX with smatterings of FreeBSD code.
QNX programmed itself from vacuum tubes and trace wires left on the ground at Quantum Software in Ottawa one evening. Dan Hildebrand (RIP) apparently had something to do with this metamorphosis.
Meanwhile across the ocean, FreeBSD was forked from Windows 95 which itself came from the unholy union of MS-DOS and the GEM environment. MS-DOS was bought from a company in Washington State and was a fork of CP/M. GEM was a stand alone thing and should never have been born.
Where was I? Oh yeah, CP/M. CP/M was a copy of Apple's SOS used in the Apple
Apple SOS was a mix/fork of Apple ProDOS and TRS-80's OS; I forget the name, not important. Radio Shack forked their TRS-80 OS from some source code they saw in Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th Edition.
Fact.
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OSX is a fork of Linux, Slackware specifically, which itself is some original old Linux code with some Cray UNICOS bolted on for what was then some decent HPC.
Good. Hope to see more of this. (Score:2, Interesting)
Nice to see someone actually following through. It might not go anywhere... but I fucking hate ego-driven development so much that I would back this type of move regardless of the dspecifics. Linus (and the mentality he spreads) can die in a fire for all I care.
Garrett (Score:3, Interesting)
a) A fork is not the end of the original project. It can be. But usually it's not.
b) "In October 2014, Garrett stated on his blog that he would no longer contribute Linux kernel changes relating to Intel hardware" - That's pettiness, and I'm sure the kernel came to a grinding halt that day too.
c) If you can't get your changes past other people, to the point that you have to fork and maintain an entirely separate branch on your own, that's usually the sign of messy code or absolute loss. It means that you want only YOUR way to be the way. That kind of lack of co-operation isn't the way forward, but you are more than free to pursue that. The number of followers of that fork versus the stock kernel is likely to be tiny, and changes likely to come back in the "accepted" format into the stock kernel before you see any real usage of it outside developers and testers.
d) "He is a recipient of the Free Software Award from the Free Software Foundation for his work on Secure Boot, UEFI, and the Linux kernel". Ah! All the bits that I *don't* want in the kernel. Did he work on systemd too?
Garrett misrepresents Linus opinion on securelevel (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not about "interminable arguments over the naming", the only one doing that is no else than Matthew [lwn.net], in attempt to pigeonhole his agenda.
This dates way way back to 98 [lwn.net]. Matthew tried to push gradual openbsd-ish "lock down everything" levels few times, while Linus and his club keeps firm stance "inherited bitmaps or gtfo" every time.
This is ultimately BSD "give user limited but easy to use tool" vs linux "provide powerful [albeit not as intuitive] tools, let user do the job". Think pf vs iptables. I personally stand with linus on this one, as providing flexible tools (instead of easy to use, but limited) is ultimately what made Linux a winner - people can bend the system for more usecases, instead of being restricted by simple and easy to use, but often hopelessly limited tools.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:for those wondering about the deepthroating (Score:5, Informative)
For those not wanting to read anything historical. The confrontation comes because the Secure Boot [rodsbooks.com] option of UEFI (if enabled) only ships with Microsoft keys in the firmware. Thus, Microsoft's signing service is the only practical signing service and will only sign a PE executable. The solution that Matt and company came up with was to have a module vendor wrap their keys in a PE executable, have Microsoft sign them, and then ship the signed PE executable with the signed Linux kernel module. Verification of the signed Linux module thus requires the Linux kernel to load the PE executable, verify its signature, then extract the vendor keys and continue on.
Linus rightly called out the idea as moronic and stupid. The retorts basically came in the form of "Microsoft created the standard, and is the only viable signing service for the standard". Even though alternative options could of been had, they were deemed to complicated and involved.
Life would of been much easier of Microsoft would just sign X.509 certificates like the rest of the world.
Read [lwn.net] more about it here.
The irony (Score:3, Interesting)
A guy complaining about unprofessionalism uses the term "deep throating". Ok then.
Re: (Score:3)
Oh lord, I just read the original posts on this, so apparently it was Linus that used that language. Geez, really?
There's no absolute standard for what language is appropriate. The line is different places for different people.
For example, you used the word "geez", which most would say is a fairly innocuous interjection expressing mild disbelief. The word is, however, a corruption of "Jesus", which many would find blasphemous, and therefore offensive.
Is it inappropriate to use administering fellatio as a metaphor for incorporating support for proprietary software in an open-source operating system? Is it appropriate
That's the beauty of FOSS (Score:5, Funny)
That's the beauty of FOSS. If you're in a pissy, childish mood, you can take a copy of someone else's ball and go home to pout. :P
Comments here kind of tell a tale as well. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen references to "don't get your panties in a bunch", Mr Garrett called "girly" in a negative tone, and a "pussy", in a negative tone. And people wonder why some form the opinion of developers as sexist?
And we all talk about OpenSource as choice, yet when someone chooses to leave a project because of non-technical issues such as language choice from managers, we deride them. So, choice is good, as long as you choose to follow what I tell you...
anyways, carry on.
Re:Who? (Score:5, Insightful)
Another guy whose wasting his efforts on a project that will never be picked up by a mainstream distro and thus will die a slow, quiet death.
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Isn't that a strength of Linux?
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Isn't that a strength of Linux?
Mostly, yes... in both directions.
Besides, this is not the first time this has happened, reason notwithstanding (see also Alan Cox.)
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Especially since most distros look to hypervisors to implement strong security. They leave less attack surface exposed than sandboxing/jailing.
Re:Who? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Jails are much simpler and with anything security, simpler is better.
It's not substitute for actual nested VMs, though. One of these days, someone will resurrect the Fluke model.
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Hypervisors are a really bad idea when you have high security requirements. They increase complexity and hence, attack surface. (And they have bugs.) In addition, you still have a distro in there, so in order to be somewhat secure, you still need the jails/sandboxing/chroot.
The increased complexity also makes attacks more complex, so for lower security needs, this can work.
Re: (Score:3)
You are probably thinking of the convenient type 2 hypervisors like virtualbox (or just kvm) that need a whole host OS to operate.
A type 1 hypervisor like Xen decreases critical attack surface drastically, especially if services like graphics are not present or are properly virtualized as in Qubes OS. Amazon AWS and EC2 also rely on Xen for security.
As for guest complexity, a certain amount of that is a given and will create opportunities for attack. The question is whether VM breakout is possible -- can al
Re: (Score:3)
As I strongly implied, type 1 hypervisors are more secure, not less, than type 2. Try at least reading the parent post before lapsing into your "no, no, no..." mantra. Implying that type 2 is more secure is absurd.
If you haven't already stopped reading (again), you might want to read this: http://blog.invisiblethings.or... [invisiblethings.org]
In short, a jailed process on a host system still has a very complex, privileged kernel to try and exploit. But in a Xen guest VM, its only the complexity of the hypervisor interfaces that
Re:Who? (Score:4, Insightful)
Although this project will probably never end up being used in any wide way, shouldn't the Linux community be concerned that it's running talent away with a poor culture?
If this were happening at our office, we'd all be concerned about brain drain.
Re:Who? (Score:5, Insightful)
Although this project will probably never end up being used in any wide way, shouldn't the Linux community be concerned that it's running talent away with a poor culture?
No.
Anyone with any real experience in hacking the Linux kernel already knows what they're getting into. It is also very widely known that Linus is incredibly fair in his assessments. If you provide useful contributions, no worries. If your commit is a total brainfart, you'll get a rejection, but the abuse won't come unless you decide to be a dumbass or get all arrogant about it.
It's about as fair as it gets.
Re:Who? (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed, people should just take vicious verbal abuse.
Which is nonsense, and completely non-arrogant, technical arguments have been met with vicious personal attacks and verbal abuse. There's a shockingly large number of emotionally immature and insecure people in the Kernel community, and a great many people meet the wrath of those people for no good reason.
And they abuse because they know they can get away with it and others like you will apologize and defend it.
Re:Who? (Score:4, Interesting)
Given the downmods each of us got in the pile, it seems this is a contentious issue.
Personally, I disagree with your assessment, but that said, I am aware that one person's fair assessment followed by a harsher and unequivocal reply if the assessment is rejected, may easily be seen by another as undue abuse.
I make no apologies for the list, because it reminds me exactly of a typical USAF flightline. Doing something dumb or misguided will get you a direct and to-the-point talking-to; first logical and fair, but increasingly harsher if you continue to resist even listening.
The reasons why are different but just as serious: in the kernel, screw-ups in design and/or direction can eventually destroy the kernel's usefulness and flexibility. On the flightline, screwups in procedure or behavior will eventually get you killed.
The harshness against any whining and/or backtalk in either case is not just someone being a turd - it's a reminder that there are reasons for things being as they are, and any proposed changes had better have a damned good reason up-front.
HTH a little.
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Reference: https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
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If they were then Zoe Quinn's "game" would have been more than reams of self-pitying text and some multiple-choice. A teenage script kiddie could do better.
Sarkeesian would have several AAA titles under her belt instead of just talking about how everyone else should make games to suit her.
That female kernel dev from yesterday would have f
Re: (Score:3)
While I think Poettering has no clue about UNIX Architecture and philosophy and is doing work of negative impact, he is doing work and trying things. He is likely a pretty good coder, he is just no architect, and no UNIX person. And while I do not "hate" him, nothing of his stuff will ever make it onto my machines, unless he starts to get a clue.
Other than that, I fully agree.
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I almost can't wait for 5-10 years down the road when she's completely irrelevant and everyone's making fun of her like they do to Jack Thompson now for having the exact same argument he had.
I'm hoping that it won't take nearly that long...but it probably will.
It'll be interesting to see just how long she can make a living at playing the victim card. To see her at the UN underscores just how ridiculous and irrelevant the UN has become. She and Zoe Quinn should never have been given an audience there. It's shameful and embarrassing.
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GP isn't forking the Linux kernel out of a ridiculous sense of entitlement, so it's irrelevant.
(GP, you aren't, right?)
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> poor culture
First, "poor" is a value judgment and more a matter of opinion than fact.
Second, "culture" is a bit of a stretch. It seems more like a clash of personalities, one of which happens to head the Linux kernel project.
Finally, this smells much more like people thinking "gosh, everyone else on the Internet is pouty and offended, and I've had an unpleasant experience, therefore I too must have something worth bitching about publicly, because why should I be denied some of this sweet, sweet, whine
Re:Who? (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. No talent is valuable to a group effort if it comes with emotional baggage that cannot tolerate direct, blunt communication when needed. This mathew garrett guy is a prime example of a prima donna that projects could do without.
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/35... [dreamwidth.org]
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/36... [dreamwidth.org]
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/33... [dreamwidth.org]
Bitching about 'cis' white men *check*
Bitching about 'privilege' *check*
deprecating towards women like he's some kind of hero *check*
'reverse discrimination' isn't a valid criticism of my brand of discrimination *check*
comments disabled "because I don't trust you guys" *check*
These and other posts by him read like first year student polysci essays. It makes perfect sense that linus and co want to keep diseased politics like this out of their community. I'm sure they wouldn't want bible thumper 'developers' telling them they're shits for not integrating jesus into their group culture either.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Who? (Score:4, Insightful)
Believe me, I can't stand SJWs, but there comes a point when the whole community just has an asshole elitist behavior, when they aren't elite at anything other than being nominees for biggest douche in the universe award.
Re:Who? (Score:4, Insightful)
While I think it's unfortunate that some innocents get caught in the crossfire, the toxicity of SJW culture is simply so damaging that I think the approach of not giving an inch is the only tenable one. Once you start coddling specific individuals by sanctions against other individuals you immediately start up the competition of the most offended, the community fractures into group politics and productivity rapidly dissipates.
There's no utility in being deliberatly uncivil unless it's necessary to get a point across, but as soon as someone starts requiring special snowflake status and demonstrates a sense of entitlement to special care for theirs or others feelings then they should get that discussion shut down asap. Allowing the SJW mindset to start festering will do much more damage than the cost of losing a few good developers.
(And it's hardly the first time Matthew Garrett has figured in an SJW context...)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed!
Not literally of course, but still. Linus has been and still is in charge, and has managed OK.
But has also kicked out quite a number of good professionals, for no other reason than his narcissism, ego and at times completely dysfunctional communication.
Re:Who? (Score:4, Insightful)
And he isn't coming into your home or office and berating you in person.
And that makes a difference... how, exactly?
Re:Who? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because you can always press delete, close the window, and walk away. Preferrably without posting a big rant complaining about why you’re ragequitting first, but whatev’s
Re: (Score:3)
This is why Linux will NEVER WIN
Hmmm...I think the world begs to differ since Linux is on the vast majority of hardware out there - everything from watches to super computers (far more breadth than *any* other operating system or operating system kernel out there). And then there's also:
"If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux it means I've won." - Linus Torvalds
Which since Microsoft is now making a version fo Visual Studios for Linux [visualstudio.com], is using its own custom Linux Distro in its data center [infoworld.com]....
well, I'll just leave it to you, but it seems that Linux has indeed won.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Can't take the heat? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should a person face a gauntlet of incivility and vitriol, one that you liken to a frying pan, to contribute to an open source project?
Code reviews, design reviews, that makes sense. Being referred to someone at a lower paygrade rather than the top tier of kernel devs, sure. These things are stressful but essential. I'd stand to lose considerable self-esteem from them, but there's nothing I can do about that but get better.
But if I went into a code or design review at work and got a Torvalds-style response, I'd be reporting the person to HR and finding a more civil person to work with. If I couldn't work around them and nobody was making them change, I'd find another job. I could try to modify the problematic person's behavior, but that would be stressful and unlikely to work, and I shouldn't have to act as my coworkers' parent.
Garrett found that there was no HR to appeal to, no way to work around Torvalds, and no way to change him. So he did in fact get out of the frying pan. He doesn't deserve to be seared whenever he gets anything done, so he's not tolerating it. Now he's getting the same things done in a way that normal people will be happier with.
This isn't a deficiency on his part. He merely doesn't want to deal with something that normal people shouldn't have to deal with.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1. There is no gauntlet of vitriol, only for quality code and design. Linus only whips out the big guns for deserved behavior/code. It's very rare, but, historically, when it happens, it saves a ton of time and stress for everyone else. Honesty is more important than shielding sensitive people from bad feelings.
2. garrett wasnt' seared 'whenever he got anything done.' That bit about the PE binaries was pretty stupid on his part.
3. appeals to what 'normal people' are, implying that kernel devs are not, is j
Re:Can't take the heat? (Score:5, Interesting)
i have little coding knowledge and have no idea how kernel coding collaboration works
but i tend to side with linus
if he verbally abused me i'd first make sure i didn't do something so stupid it warrants such a response (in case you want to say 'nothing warrants verbal abuse', we're adults, not children) before deciding to move away.
Here's an example of Linus ranting on someone:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/... [lkml.org]
Yes, it's pretty harsh. But I can't honestly say that what Linus said was wrong.
Re:Can't take the heat? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're not wrong Walter. You're just an asshole.
Re:Waaaahhhhh!! (Score:4, Insightful)
The project leader insults people a lot and is too distracted by a name to give my code a fair evaluation, so I'm going to stop trying to work with him in my free time and instead work on my own, where I can get things done without a ton of useless fighting.
There's plenty of puerileness here, but not from Garrett.
Re: (Score:3)
Are you sure he is not currently being paid for his work on the kernel? He used to be when he was at RedHat
Re: (Score:3)
Well, we are just hearing his side of this (in this article).
Are there forum / list logs that back him up on this?
It's quite possible that Linus had good and valid reasons for not going Garrett's route, in addition to the "name issue", and that Garrett is only using the name issue to make it look like the reasoning was petty.
Re:Waaaahhhhh!! (Score:5, Informative)
It was a pretty stupid idea, and it isn't surprising that Linus shot it down.
Re: Waaaahhhhh!! (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't blame Linus? When people are talking about signing and parsing PE binaries, and whether that belongs in the kernel or in userland, you think that it's perfectly acceptable to talk about sucking dicks? That's effective management to you?
I mean, why can't Linus just make his point without multiple references to sucking dicks? Why is that not an option?
That's the point he's making. He's not talking about whether or not Linus is correct, he's talking about the way in which Linus chooses to communicate.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Linus has been acting that way since the beginning, in fact since Matthew Garrett is 22 Linus has been acting that way since before he was born. Linus's behavior is not an existential threat to the project since it's one of the most successful projects in human history despite the fact that he has always acted like that.
Re: (Score:3)
Furthermore, the term 'deep-throating microsoft' *was* very to the point. I challenge you to express the same disgust of the proposed patch in a more civilized manner which would also make it immediately clear how disgusted you are.
"I am thoroughly disgusted by even considering this change and will never allow it into the kernel." After all, he has absolute say over what goes in. It's pretty easy to lay down the law without talking about erect penises inside throats, but it does require a certain level of emotional maturity I suppose.
Re: (Score:3)
Are you homophobic?
Why, because only homosexual people suck dicks? Believe it or not, but I actually know several heterosexual people who do in fact enjoy sucking dicks, and I think they're great people. No, I'm not homophobic, and this has nothing to do with sexuality. See what happens? The topic was parsing PE binaries, and now you're asking me if I'm homophobic. That kind of highlights the exact problem that we're talking about. Sexuality and sexual acts do not belong in a professional discussion about technical issu
Re: (Score:3)
You are incorrect.
Did Linus say, "I hope you eat dicks and die you fag?"
Did Linus say, "You're a shit programmer for thinking up something like this?"
Did Linus say, "Go to hell you moron?"
No. He did not personally insult the developer in any way. He made a rude comment about a company -- which doesn't have feelings -- to get his point across. The poster of that patch has no reason to be personally offended. The comment was about his work, not him as a human being.
Re: (Score:3)
Considering Garrett's SJW credentials, it's more likely about working on his own, with his own mailing list where he can block anyone not adhering to his particular set of prejudices. I doubt it will be particularly productive. Or inclusive.
Re: (Score:3)
I keep seeing people mention SJW reasons for this, but it may go beyond that. Even the systemd people were fed up with the attitude:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2... [theregister.co.uk]
"i stopped working on the upstream kernel "long ago" for reasons i cannot stand the attitude of these guys, i decided to work with grown up or funny, or grown up and funny people instead and i enjoy it a lot more. not sure what this childish blackmail attempt relates to."
What I find ironic is that Linus hammer banned Kay Sievers for having the
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
Look at the last entry on the first page (might change, so recorded for posterity)
Matthew Garrett - Geek Feminism Wiki
geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Matthew_Garrett
Matthew Garrett (also known as mjg59) is a Linux kernel developer and is well-known in the Linux...
It is very likely that he actually did this because of Sarah quitting yesterday.
Re:SJW Linux v1.0 (Score:4, Insightful)
Athiesm Plus
I remember that clusterfuck well...it was a total crapload of pure stupid, with dickheads like PZ Meyers jumping on the bandwagon.
Garrett is the idiot who, while working for Red Hat, screeched that a kernel developer Ted Tso was a 'rape apologist' on a mailing list - completely untrue and a disgusting lie.
Ahh yes, "rape apologist", the specious accusation that keeps on giving. Needs no basis in fact or reality to be used, smears the target nicely, and makes the accuser feel like he/she is "helping the world".
The people that use this term to accuse others of some supposed behavior can't even agree on what it means, and by some definitions if you've ever looked at a woman on the street and thought she was attractive, you're a "rape apologist". If you've ever looked at nude images of women on the internet, you're a "rape apologist". The list goes on and on and most of it is genuinely insane.