Linux Kernel Dev Sarah Sharp Quits, Citing 'Brutal' Communications Style 928
JG0LD writes: A prominent Linux kernel developer announced today in a blog post that she would step down from her direct work in the kernel community. “My current work on userspace graphics enabling may require me to send an occasional quirks kernel patch, but I know I will spend at least a day dreading the potential toxic background radiation of interacting with the kernel community before I send anything,” Sharp wrote. Back in July, 2013 Sarah made a push to make the Linux Kernel Development Mailing List a more civil place.
Any links to real conversations? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is one of those things that needs context.
Re:Any links to real conversations? (Score:5, Funny)
It has been frequently a topic of Slashdot posts. Even a modicum of Google research will come up with some gems. https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/... [lkml.org] - here's one
Re:Any links to real conversations? (Score:4, Informative)
Here is context
https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/1... [lkml.org]
https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/2... [lkml.org]
She tried some attention grabbing drama, got all SJWy, was briefly shot down, butthurt feelings etc. Now she quit
Re:Any links to real conversations? (Score:4, Informative)
Can't Take the Heat........? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Can't Take the Heat........? (Score:5, Insightful)
Being an asshole and personally attacking the submitter doesn't help improve code. Its much more likely to alienate people and give them reasons to fuck you over in the future.
Further, if these people were to act this way in person they'd eventually get the shit kicked out of them.
Re:Can't Take the Heat........? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree.
Shara himself wrote that the same people act nicely in person. It's the most interesting point: why someone can be nice with someone else in person and brutal with the same person on a open mailing list ? It inconsistent and probably a sign of immaturity.
Re:Can't Take the Heat........? (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone who gets involved in kernel development (male, female or other) finds the whole process utterly brutal and gets the shit kicked out of them at some stage. While not all that nice sometimes it at least does ensure that ideas and code passes the mustard.
I generally try not to be a dickwad. However, I'm not in charge of a major software project. After reading Linus' explanation of why he isn't "nice" I can't say i disagree with him:
The fact is, people need to know what my position on things are. And I can't just say "please don't do that", because people won't listen. I say "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle", and I mean it.
And I definitely am not willing to string people along, either. I've had that happen too - not telling people clearly enough that I don't like their approach, they go on to re-architect something, and get really upset when I am then not willing to take their work.
Re: (Score:3)
Most of the time when someone ask comment on an approach on a Open Source project he got no useful response. Later when he submit his patches he got brutal responses. It's the "let's the other do a mistake to show my power" scenario. It's only a hidden way to conserve leadership, even if it's unconscious.
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That's the dumbest argument for a pack of assholes that I've ever heard.
AND is factually wrong on 'ideas & code pass the mustard.'
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Re:Can't Take the Heat........? (Score:5, Insightful)
Her own post says that they do need to be terse and blunt. As she said "I would prefer that the Linux kernel have more maintainers so that they wouldn’t have to be terse or blunt." they do not have the manpower to have the time to pussy foot around the whole PC nonsense.
It's about the same in startups you get a lot of things done because you dont worry about somebody feelings it's fsking work you get it done and done well, you mark the hacks that may come back and bite ya. Bigcorp is all about CYA and takes 10x the people to get the work often just as many actual workers and piles of people the manage them and or deal with the idiocy.
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Technical excellence does not require uncaring aggressiveness.
What kind of idiot would even think of trying to claim that Linus doesn't care?! If his "aggressiveness" (lol, "Don't hurt us, Linus!") isn't an indicator of how much emotion he's got invested in Linux, I don't know what is! ;)
not really news (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
The link from "back in July" was from 2013, and Sarah hasn't made a kernel contribution in 18 months. She's moved on to other projects, and I wish her the best of luck.
More of the microagressions.
I used to do kernel dev.. (Score:5, Interesting)
in the *very* early days (0.9x), and back then Linus never seemed like much of a dick, but then again, at the time he was still a student. Even met him face-to-face a couple of times. I stepped away due to the huge time commitments required by my regular job, not because of any issues I had with anyone.
The stories I hear leave me scratching my head. This isn't the Linus I knew back in the day. I guess all the fame and all of that must have gone to his head.
Re:I used to do kernel dev.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Even flat out rejection don't require to use any harsh word if you enjoy a very asymmetric power ratio like Linus.
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Re:I used to do kernel dev.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Or you only hear about the more salacious bits of otherwise mundane developer communication.
Re:I used to do kernel dev.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The stories I hear leave me scratching my head. This isn't the Linus I knew back in the day. I guess all the fame and all of that must have gone to his head.
Or perhaps the job of dealing with people that you didn't hired and you can't fire is getting on his nerves.
Linus don't control strictly his workforce, he must deal with people hired by others - something as a matrix organizational structure. All he can do is to accept or reject the commits, and this is something merely reactive, not pro-active. And it's always expensive, if not in money, in effort and time.
Being stuck with a not so cooperative coworker that you don't control is enerving. I'm currently switching jobs for this exact reason: *ONE* coworker that I can't fire was cooperating less than I needed, but I still had full responsibility on the results.
I can't just imagine what it would be with thousands.
See the end of her blog post.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Reminds me of the old phrase about being able to dish it out all day but not being able to take it for one second.
Kind of reminds me of the whole Ellen Pao debacle where she accused people who worked with -- at a VC firm -- of being complete assholes. And she was right about that part. However, she lost the case because the facts showed that she was one of the biggest assholes in the whole place so she might as well have sued herself.
If this part is true, then it's unprofessional (Score:4, Insightful)
...What that means is they are privileging the emotional needs of other Linux kernel developers (to release their frustrations on others, to be blunt, rude, or curse to blow off steam) over my own emotional needs (the need to be respected as a person, to not receive verbal or emotional abuse). There’s an awful power dynamic there that favors the established maintainer over basic human decency....
That shows a complete lack of professional respect on the part of those who bully others by demanding the environment be so disrespectful.
.
In a professional environment, you criticize the work, not the person. Period.
Those who say that such bullying is par for the course are more part of the problem than part of the solution.
"Women don't like trash talk, be more sensitive" (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't empowering women. This is arguing that they are weaker than men far more profoundly than any MRA red piller gamer gater misogynist could ever hope to accomplish.
Culture Conflict (Score:3, Interesting)
Rather than view it in terms of "the right way" versus "the wrong way", how about we agree that on average men PREFER a certain communication style that is different from women's average preferred communication style.
It's an old-fashioned "culture conflict" type of problem.
These are mostly volunteers in this case such that we cannot simply slap a discrimination lawsuit on them to force them to talk "professionally".
Maybe someone can offer special classes to learn how to sling "dude crap" with the best of th
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Rather than view it in terms of "the right way" versus "the wrong way", how about we agree that on average men PREFER a certain communication style that is different from women's average preferred communication style.
No, because that would require agreeing that men and women are different.
Which is SEXIST!
Re: (Score:3)
Projection? You're denying the elephant in the room. Rather than dig up all the feminist teeth gnashing over this when it was news two years ago, let's just get it from the filly's mouth [wired.co.uk]:
Two questions later...
Oh dear, gender essentialism... tsk tsk. There's nothing preventing
Hmmmm (Score:5, Interesting)
It took a hell of a lot of digging, but it seems to have started with this thread [lkml.org], way back in 2013.
Now, I'm all for professional communication, and emails can be easy to misinterpret, but this looks like a bit of an over-reaction. Someone commented that they send patches to Greg KH because Linus scares him, but added a winkey smiley afterwards, i.e. not really all that scary. Then Linus made a joke about Greg being big and squishing people that may or may not be playful or insulting, without knowing much about the relationship between these guys it's hard to say. Squish is hardly a word you use when you're really angry though.
And then Linus and Ingo gently tick off Greg and says he should be tougher, Linus says Greg is acting like a "door mat" and says "You may need to learn to say no to people". Ingo says "be frank with contributors and sometimes swear a bit". Probably this discussion would be held off list in a more traditional corporate environment to avoid embarrassing Greg (though "you are too nice" is not that embarrassing), but he takes it in his stride and agrees to be tougher.
OK, so far, just another day in open source land? Well, then Sarah Sharp flies off the handle and says:
What the heck? The only thing she could be referring to this thread so far has been Linus talking about Greg being a giant who might "squish you without even noticing". Nobody could seriously interpret that as advocating for violence unless you were so unbelievably literal you'd be unable to handle ordinary conversations.
And then there's the conflation of "verbal abuse" with "violence". These are two words that mean very different things. And finally the assertion that by trying to make jokes (perhaps not very well), Linus and Ingo were being unprofessional. Not surprisingly, Linus had a problem with this claim.
Now I don't know, probably this could have been avoided if the discussion with Greg had been private. But it seems Sharp would have let rip at some other point if someone else made an off-colour joke. I can believe LKML is a tough environment, but this isn't the best evidence possible. Perhaps there have been other incidents, but as Sharp doesn't list any, it's hard to say.
Re:Hmmmm (Score:4, Interesting)
Thanks for bringing facts instead of blog-post innuendo into the conversation.
First Interesting point in that thread: The first person to start dropping f-bombs on other people is none other than Sarah Sharp. Who is using the uncivil and threatening language exactly?
Second interesting point: She doesn't seem to have a problem with a posting a rant about communications that seem to have literally nothing to do with her whatsoever. Nothing in that thread was directed at her or was even being abusive towards some other woman either.
Re: (Score:3)
She doesn't seem to have a problem with a posting a rant about communications that seem to have literally nothing to do with her whatsoever.
It's not usual for someone to wade into the middle of a mailing list thread that gone overboard to demand that everyone cool it. I once asked a question on the Python mailing list and someone took offense at my email address. I ignored that person and didn't respond back. Other people waded in and told him to STFU.
Re:Hmmmm (Score:5, Interesting)
And from the other Slashdot discussion, a picture of Linus and Greg sitting together [linuxzasve.com]. Wow, Linus wasn't kidding. Greg KH is enormous! I don't mean fat, I mean, literally he does appear to be a giant. Unless there's something weird about that camera perspective it's not totally surprising that Linus may have made a joke along the lines of "you should be scared of Greg".
Re:Hmmmm (Score:4, Insightful)
So she's a social justice warrior troll doing this for attention? Called it earlier.
Expect her to have a Patreon account up within a few days, as well as a campaign started explaining why Linus is problematic and needs to be removed from Linux development soon, or how Linux needs a safe space special interest group so feminist coders can submit their commits without being threatened by people pointing out their code sucks. Because remember kids, criticism is "Cyber Violence. [popehat.com]"
As an aside, she's a blockbot user, so yes, she most definitely is a SJW or a SJW ally:
https://twitter.com/sarahsharp [twitter.com]
(If you're blocked and have never even spoken with her, congratulations, you're a member of Randy Harper's blacklist, [leagueforgamers.com] an list of white men, gamers, nerds, conservatives, KFC, President Obama, and other people Randy Harper and her radical feminist friends consider too "problematic" to be allowed to communicate with people in the tech industry.)
Actually... Yuuuup, 5 seconds of research later:
http://sarah.thesharps.us/tag/... [thesharps.us]
Third Wave (Professional Victim) Feminist, with posts pushing the lie about the gender gap (there are more women than men getting STEM degrees now [aaup.org]), and a post about the "Donglegate" lynch mob, wherein a professional outrage mob was directed by professional victim and gender identity con artist [twitter.com] Adria Richards to shame and destroy the lives of two men making a joke about forking and dongles, suggesting that hearing a joke you disagree with is equivalent to being physically attacked.
In short: She might be a gifted programmer, but she's a weak willed human being, and her having a professional freakout about Linus making a joke about being intimidating isn't surprising -- it's a calculated maneuver. Expect something else to come up soon -- as mentioned, Linus will be deemed too problematic to be allowed to remain in Linux, or the Professional Victims will demand special treatment for Women in Linux Development.
Gave up years ago (Score:4, Informative)
I stopped contributing to the Linux kernel in like 1995 because the environment even then was too toxic. With the same sort of 'apologist' rhetoric that we hear today. In the 20 years I've been contributing to FreeBSD, I've still yet to accumulate as much toxin as was present in the 12 months or so I tried contributing minor things to Linux.
Sarah, the LKML SJW (Score:5, Interesting)
"*Snort*. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite"."
Linus tends to be very direct, as are a lot of important open source communities. The critical people are very busy and get frustrated when people display various kinds of incompetence. In fact, it appears to me that they were treating Sarah very gently precisely *because* she was a girl. Or maybe it was the intel.com email adress -- who knows.
Re:Sarah, the LKML SJW (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Locate or Create a Violation of the Narrative.
2. Point and Shriek.
3. Isolate and Swarm.
4. Reject and Transform.
5. Press for Surrender.
6. Appeal to Amenable Authority.
7. Show Trial.
8. Victory Parade.
SJWs are cowards. Even the slightest resistance early on is usually enough to stop the process. In this case, step 3 didn't materialize, so she's stuck repeating step 2.
Fortunately, Linus seems to be a natural. He values results over pretty much all else, and his results are currently running just about all meaningful computation and communication on and in the vicinity of this planet, so threats to withdraw approval don't mean shit to him.
The Line (Score:3, Insightful)
There is a place for profanity laced arguments. There are times when the cluebat need to be applied. They should be the exception and preferably done in private. The problem comes when every discussion quickly devolves into name calling and profanity. It has the following effects;
1. Less discussion as people drop out as vitriol ensues.
2. Fewer participants as people never come back.
3. Distraction from the real subject. It becomes an insult contest rather than a discussion.
4. Fewer discussions as many don't want to start arguments.
In the end it created smaller communities and worse code. Just because you can bully someone into agreeing does not make you right; just a more effective bully.
Just because a woman has brought it up does not make it a gender issue. In the end this is not a man or woman issue it is a civility issue.
To all those who say "women should get thicker skins and not take things personally" I say "certain men should stop equating being right with their worth/masculinity or go back to the cave where they belong".
A push to make the Kernel mailing list more civil? (Score:3)
"The argument over whether such language is appropriate then moved off-list, with Torvalds trying to make the conversation private and Sharp making it public again. "Oh, FFS, I [was] just called out on private email for 'playing the victim card,'" arstechnica.com [arstechnica.com]
"I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords" Torvalds
If she were a he (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like a SJW scorned. (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that FreeBSD already has been neutered by a CoC due to similarly written complaints, this doesn't sound too different from a spurned SJW.
A clash of cultures -- The LKML is not Intel (Score:4, Insightful)
This is an interesting conflict. A group of people find the LKML culture to be toxic to such an extent that they decide to stop participating in it. The question is: should the LKML culture change to accommodate them?
I don't see any easy answers. Many people agree that Casablanca was a great film. At the time it was being made, the people involved thought it was just another film. We don't know what magic ingredients caused that film to be great. There is no known recipe to reproduce that greatness.
The Intel culture has produced some fabulous things. It has been at the forefront of exponential growth in digital electronics for decades. But there are many things that culture is not good at creating. Operating systems that run on their hardware, for example. Likewise, Google bought Motorola Mobility in 2011 but ended up selling it at a loss three years later. The Google culture was really good at many things but making smartphones was not one of them.
The Linux kernel is unique and like the movie Casablanca we just don't know what combination of elements caused it to be so great. We have no recipe for making another OS like Linux. This is not from lack of trying. The question is: should we try to change the culture on LKML in order to make it appear less toxic to a group of people? Are the parts of the culture that seem toxic to some people part of the magic that has made Linux so successful? We just don't know.
If I was king of the world and everyone ultimately answered to me then I would let Linus decide if he wants to change the LKML or not. I don't think anyone knows why the LKML consistently make good kernels the same way Intel consistently makes good hardware. The person who knows it best is Linus. I would trust his gut instinct of what to do about changing the culture he has created. If I was forced to decide then I would tell him to keep doing what he has been doing because, for me, the quality of the kernel is far more important than a group of people finding the LKML culture toxic.
Of course there has to be a line drawn somewhere. For example if the LKML required ritual human sacrifices, that would be totally unacceptable. Any forms of physical violence would be unacceptable, even forms of hate speech would be unacceptable. For me, a group of people who can't work with the kernel because they find the environment toxic does not cross the line. If it was a large fraction of the developers then it would be a problem. If I saw instances that were particularly egregious then that would be a problem too.
There are many work environments that people would find much more toxic than the LKML. Commercial fishing is one obvious example. I think the vast majority of people (at least from the first world) would find working as a commercial fisherman to be toxic, intolerable, and probably impossible. This does not necessarily mean commercial fishing needs to change in order have a less toxic work environment. The obvious solution has already been implemented: if you don't want to be a commercial fisherman then don't be one.
Perhaps the same obvious solution has been found here was well. I think it is good that this issue is brought up every now and then. It gives Linus a chance to see if he thinks the LKML culture needs to change. But I don't see any reason for the LKML to be all inclusive. I think it would be fine if it were a mostly all whiteboys club (I don't know if it is) as long as there is no discrimination based on gender or race instead of actions. If it works and you don't know how or why it works then don't fix it.
The *internet* has had an abuse problem forever (Score:3)
There have been "abuse" problems on the internet since before it existed, when bulletin board servers were common. There is just something about being on a remote keyboard or microphone that brings out the absolute worst in a lot of people. Trash talking gamers, bigots, racists, stark raving lunatics -- they're all "wired".
You can complain about it all you like, but unless you're going to censor the shit out of every forum, website, and mailing list in existence, you are going to be faced with it. The same way you're going to be faced with such people in real life.
Sadly, a lot of people would rather whinge and whine about their "rights" and their "feelings" rather than face up to reality. They live in a dream world of kittens, unicorns, and rainbows that exhibits a completely and totally unrealistic expectation of what society is or should be.
Can't handle the pressure? Leave -- which she is doing. But posting a long-winded rant about why you're leaving is just childish, selfish, "pity poor me" bullshit. Everyone already knows it's going on; they don't give a flying fuck about your hurt feelings over anyone else's (often including their own.)
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a man and I don't like when guys feels it's ok to be bullying me.
Being nice is not so difficult.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Same here. You talk like that to me... either you're fired or I quit.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a time for shouting, and there's times for civil discourse. Off the top of my head, things like life and death situations would qualify for heated responses. A mailing list for a kernel? Nothing but pure ego stroking.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't like to be bullied either, therefore I don't allow people to do it. You have to take accountability for yourself. If the person is being a bully, call them out.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
Welcome to the game of power dynamics! If you call them out, will they make your life difficult? If you call them out, will they physically attack you? If you call them out, will they use their authority to subtly destroy your life or career? The answer to all these questions is "I don't know!"
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Ah, yes, the MAD style of conflict resolution. They send one of your guys to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue! That's the free software way!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Your the one that assumes 'mutually assured destruction' is in scope for dealing with a bully.
I will grant you one thing, if the bully has nukes, your method is better.
Absent that, stand up for yourself or forever be a doormat.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't even have to win the fight, you just have to hurt them, and they will leave you alone in the future.
I knew a girl who was bullied by some other girls in school. One day she fought back, and landed a good punch. Two days later she was gone because they ganged up on her, set her hair on fire and burned her with cigarettes. Her parents drove her to another school after that.
bullies are usually cowards.
Except when they're not cowards, outweigh you, and have a lot of friends. This is not uncommon.
I know more than a few guys who were bullied. Some fought back, sometimes it worked. As often as not though, it didn't help one iota, and if anything just made it worse.
The football quarterback prom king dating the lead cheerleader who throws the best parties? Half the school worships him, including the teachers? He can be a bully too. I wouldn't count on the idea that landing a couple good punches on him is going to make life better for his victim.
Re: (Score:3)
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It's the fucking Linux Kernel Mailing List, not a playground. Adults are supposed to be able to resolve their conflicts without violence, and act reasonably and even somewhat professionally towards each other. Grow up.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Those engaging in very harsh, perhaps aggressive, discussion and criticism within a challenging and highly technical project? Or those trying to force change upon a community/organisation with public shaming and social media activism?
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
And yet she's perfectly willing to mock, abuse, and deride people on her own turf where she's the one in charge. This is just another case of hypocrisy from top to bottom. She wants to be an "equal" but she also wants everyone to bend over backwards to accomodate her and treat her gently. She talks about things being "toxic" but is toxic herself to anyone she disagrees with... when she's the one holding all the cards.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Have you ever posted to the LKML recently ? I do. And I can assure you this is actually a stress to get something right on it without getting attacked for nothing or completely ignored. The LKML was no so extreme 15 years ago. Shara was absolutely right to react to the abusive attitude. And yes a professional attitude require that you control your emotion. Only peoples that abuse of there position can lost control without consequences.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
No true Scotsman argument.
Lots of men are put off by the same BS behavior, the difference is that there is more pressure to conform / suck it up, etc. Company I know removed a manager who had this style and the team was composed solely of males in a male dominated profession. Environment was getting toxic so instead of allowing the department to fail upper management took action and probably saved the company.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
And a lot of men, myself included are put off by the sort of hostile work environment PC nazis create, where you have to say bullshit like "this is less than ideal." rather than "this is garbage." or "the fuck is this." to avoid offending people. It's especially bad when you're on the receiving end of this new PC form of disapproval, because many times you can't even tell if someone is praising or admonishing you, and you end up feeling like you're doing a shit job even when your boss is telling you everything is ok; and sometimes you are.
I'd rather be told, "jee what you've done is fucking bad." than say "well, we'll have to rethink this approach." and I'm left wondering, wtf does he/she mean by this? This hasn't happened to me, but getting fired after six months of never being told you've fucked up or done anything wrong must be brutal.
Now, I get there is some wiggle room, and you can be just as expressive and direct without resorting to swearing or simile, like instead of saying "this software is fucking garbage", saying "this software is bad, wrong and unfit for purpose." but you need to be direct and confrontational so that people know where they stand, rather than pretending to be polite when they are 5 minutes from being fired.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
So it's political correctness gone awry merely because you can't say "this is garbage" or "the fuck is this"? Holy crap you are one messed up AC. This isn't political correctness, this is basic interpersonal interaction developed over thousands of years. If you need to get along with someone and work as a team, you can not bully them or insult them or it will end badly. When you are at work it is no longer about YOU, it is about your coworkers, your company, getting the work done, etc.
Just practice this. Say "this looks like a bug" instead of saying "this looks like shit". It gets to the point of it being about solving the problem instead of it being a power play. The only reason you want people to know where they stand is because you're treating the workplace as a competition to see who can come out on top as the alpha dog. Stop treating it like a competition and start cooperating. If you can't, then there are anger management classes you can sign up for before you are the one who gets fired.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
What a load of stereotypical bollocks. I'm a man, and I don't accept or give abuse at work. If someone is rubbish, I'll tell them politely and professionally what they need to change, and if they continue to be rubbish, I'll fire them. Most of the women I have worked with seem to have the same sense of humour, skin-thickness and social skills as the men. i.e. if you are flat out rude and abusive, they get upset.
There is no need for for abusive leadership styles, irrespective of whether the team members or male or female.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When we hire people, we train them to separate the personal from the professional. We can never attack the personal but we can attack the professional as brutally as we want.
You simply have not been trained to tell the difference. Instead, what you have been trained is that the world is a female world and that there is no difference between the personal and professional.
That is simply, and factually, wrong.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a man and I think this is a shit way to treat a human being. No, it's not okay to treat me that way just because I have "outdoor plumbing". I'm not your bro. We're not going to bro down at the bar after you berate me.
This is a part of nerd culture that we need to not quietly condone any longer.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
It's all very well to say that people need to learn not to take things personally, but the fact is that you can't possibly know - especially not over a mailing list - just what emotional or personal issues a person might be going through. Do you really a want a situation where curious and potentially talented developers are put off contributing to an important project because of a toxic culture?
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
... the leaders of the community are prioritising the "need" for people to express themselves aggressively over other people's potential need for respectful and sensitive communication.
Yup, that's right. It's their communication style and it has worked well for them for years. If people with 'sensitive needs' want to participate, they should have to toughen up, or fork the code and show those mean bastards the superiority of 'sensitive' interaction styles. Sharp has no right to impose her expectations on them. They've made it clear they don't respect whiners who can't handle harsh criticism for mistakes, and what does she do? Whine. What a joke.
It's all very well to say that people need to learn not to take things personally, but the fact is that you can't possibly know - especially not over a mailing list - just what emotional or personal issues a person might be going through. Do you really a want a situation where curious and potentially talented developers are put off contributing to an important project because of a toxic culture?
It doesn't matter how talented the person is if those emotional problems prevent rational acceptance of criticism, especially if the person is now in a critical role. Linus gets a lot of flack for his bluntness, but he really only lets loose when someone in such a role fucks up big time. One individual's (or group's) toxic culture is another's productive environment. The only way to change the culture is to compete and outpace it with superior productivity. In the case of the kernel, she should fork it and start her own team to show linus and friends how it's done.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
You're making crude generalizations on the basis of gender. I dare say that borderline bullying isn't a healthy environment for a lot of men or women; it's immature and unprofessional and, as Sarah Sharp eloquently points out in her post, by tolerating such a culture the leaders of the community in question are prioritising the "need" for people to express themselves aggressively over other people's potential need for respectful and sensitive communication. It's all very well to say that people need to learn not to take things personally, but the fact is that you can't possibly know - especially not over a mailing list - just what emotional or personal issues a person might be going through. Do you really a want a situation where curious and potentially talented developers are put off contributing to an important project because of a toxic culture?
What struck me about what she was trying to do, and I've seen others try to do the same thing, is to equate some comment or comments on a mailing list, or other post, as "violence". When I grew up we learned that "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me." That is, they're just words, they are not fists or knives or guns. It's not "violence" to berate someone or use colorful language or anything else. It may "offend" you, but taking offense at something someone says is entirely subjective, and impossible to enforce, because you end up with "speech codes", banning words, and other asinine restrictions until everything is a euphemism or metaphor until no one knows what anyone is talking about any more.
Bullying used to mean you're getting physically intimidated, punched, kicked, assaulted or robbed regularly. Now it seems it's enough that someone said something that hurt your feelings. And people can get their feelings hurt by things that are totally NOT intended that way by the speaker, just because of the listener's history or viewpoint.
Equating speech to physical violence is a very dangerous trend that will not end well.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There is others places debating very technical question without using brutality, for example Stackoverflow.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:4, Insightful)
Men are blunt to each and will call you out on your bullshit to your face.
Women, on the other hand, will do it behind your back and will be far more vindictive about it.
That is the real difference.
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Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
Would you treat coworkers like that? In meatspace? If someone called me a fuckwad in a way that wasn't obviously jokey/ironic it would be a huge problem to me. Being nice and civil is a much better way to get things done. Like, grumpy/curmudgeonly is kinda par for the course but that's totally different.
I used to work with a really toxic dev that for whatever reason our management dept protected. He was extremely misogynistic and refused to work with any women. One time in a meeting he said something basically like "it's in the spec, you stupid bitch" (as an aside, it wasn't in the spec ;p). He used to get away with yelling at people etc. Then I got sucked into the daily meetings and said basically "there is no call to raise your voice in a meeting at work. if you have a personal problem with me, we can go outside and talk about it". Never had a problem with him after that - unsurprisingly most misogynists and bullies are in reality cowards.
Re: (Score:3)
I used to work for a woman who was a horrible bully. When she turned it on me I had a similar comment to her and she never did it to me again - but I did see her doing it to others. As you say, most bullies are really cowards.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, if in my place work work I had to put up with "You're being a fuckwad. Don't do this." my response is going to come down to "why do I have to listen to whiny little children not capable of communicating like adults?" I'm sorry, but in the real world there is an expectation people will act like grown ups. In fact, there's probably an HR department and some labor laws which say you are required to act like grownups. Your ass will be out on the street if you act like this.
This whole bullshit of women should just suck it up because that's how the world works? Guess what, in the real world ... like corporations where people have jobs ... there isn't this anywhere but self entitled assholes on the internet.
The Linux developers might think they live in a microcosm where acting like a childish asshole is commonplace. But it's important to realize this has NOTHING to do with pretty much anything else. That the internet is full of assholes doesn't mean in real corporations with real people with real jobs get away with acting like this.
Trash talk is NOT how things happen in the real world. And a bunch of self entitled idiots claiming acting like self entitled idiots is normal doesn't make it true.
The fact that there's no adult supervision and people keep believing they can act like out of control high school students is the problem here.
If you haven't already learned to interact with people in a civil manner, the get out of your mother's basement, and learn that shit like this will get you fired from a real job. Working on the Linux kernel is not free license to be a major asshole and a social halfwit.
So maybe the problem is the idiots who think this is a problem with women. Because you sure as hell wouldn't expect to get away with this in any corporate setting; not even a little bit.
Seriously, people, grow the hell up. You likely already have people enforcing some degree of civility on you, because pretty much no organization is going to put up with this shit.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My first knee-jerk reaction was also, "Yeah, SHE couldn't take it." But after reflecting on Linus Torvald's style and comparing it with workplaces that I've been at over the years... yeah, I can't say I blame her. The key to successful leadership is giving criticism when it's due and also giving praise when it's due. Books have been written about how to be a successful manager and leader. A few I can think of off the top of my head:
How to Make Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie
The 7 Habits of Hig
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
Because if you want me to "act professional", I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearign a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:4, Insightful)
That's exactly what Linus *doesn't* want. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is all about manipulating people, stroking their ego and trying to act in a way so that they like you.
So that they like you? Wrong, it's about being able to identify what you need to say and do to a particular person in order to get that person what you need or want them to do. In other words, management, influence (it's right there in the title!). It's about how to effectively lead a group of people that each have their own personal needs. You identify the needs they have, what motivates or de-motivates them, and apply that to get them to effectively do their job as part of the team. It's exactly what being a manager or team leader is all about. In practice the bad managers are the ones who don't understand how to do that. There is a very good argument to be made that Linus is a very bad manager.
For example, I'm a developer and I have zero interest in getting involved with the Linux kernel specifically because I don't want to be yelled at while I'm learning the thing. I have other things I could be doing than getting yelled at while I'm trying to learn something. I studied the architecture of it in college (we had an entire class specifically on the kernel code), and I was interested to see how it worked and how they chose to solve various problems, but I have no interest in trying to actually engage with the people who would sooner tear me down than answer my questions or point me in the right direction.
It's not a work environment I want any part of, so Linus is free to refuse to do anything based on being able to work in his bathrobe from home, but in the end he's only going to attract the kind of people who want to work in their bathrobe from home. I'm not one of those people, shit I don't even own a bathrobe. It's like the women I know who have trouble finding a good guy, and decide to dress like a whore (I say this with the utmost respect for these women, it's a term they freely and jokingly use to describe their own outfits) and go hang out in bars. If that's how they dress and that's where they hang out, then they're only going to attract a guy looking for those qualities (which, incidentally, is not the kind of guy they really want). The same goes for Linus, he's only going to attract the kind of people who think that sitting in a bathrobe at home yelling at people is just the thing for them. That's great, but there are a lot of us who want more from our relationships, and Sarah Sharp, like my single female friends, is apparently one of those people.
The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what "acting professionally" results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways.
I'm split on whether Linus' logical fallacy is the slippery slope, or black and white. Apparently he thinks that putting on a tie and not calling co-workers names will always lead to what he's describing. The fact is that a lot of people manage to treat their co-workers with respect without resorting to lying, backstabbing, and passive-aggressive behavior. Linux is only saying that he's incapable of doing that. It's his failure personally, not a failure of being professional.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm sorry, but what Linus says is pure bullshit.
It's not about manipulating others or faking politeness, it's about respecting others.
You don't have to be condescending to be respectful.
And you can avoid bullying people when unnecessary.
It's all about non-violence: you treat others as you expect that they treat you.
At my first job, 30 years ago, experienced people were bullying inexperienced people, just because they had a little bit more knowledge.
Even though I was on the experienced part, it was a terribl
Re: (Score:3)
I realize that coarse language in many situations is just part of the culture of the group and is often devoid of any real meaning or it could even be part of what is
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
No they don't. Feminism presents it as a battle between male space or a female space. It's a false dichotomy. The hypocrisy is that feminists expect men to take the 'chivalrous' route and modify their interaction styles for women, yet asking women to reciprocate with some toughness and objectivity is 'oppressive' or 'misogynistic.' The net result is that men are driven out of areas where women have gotten their PC 'safe spaces' for their interaction and thinking styles because men do not do well there. Just ask a male nurse. Fighting discrimination with discrimination is not a solution.
I'm a fan of what works for a given environment and given group of people. The individuals making up the bulk of the effort are the ones who decide the culture simply because they are the most productive. Anything else would drive these productive individuals out and weaken the result. Linus and his lieutenants are far more productive than sarah sharp is, and she is not happy with the interaction style they set, so she goes. No big loss. She's welcome to either adapt to that or work on a different project. If her viewpoint is truly superior and her politics in line with reality, it should be a no brainer to fork the kernel and demonstrate this. The best contributors would flock to her and, in time, her branch would be the technically superior one. She should be showing us 'misogynists' how it's done instead of whining and stirring up shitstorms.
Feminism (and the social justice crowd in general) hate the idea of judging on merit and performance.
Some random quick google searches. Note how they contort the language and definitions..
http://mediadiversified.org/20... [mediadiversified.org]
http://geekfeminism.org/2009/1... [geekfeminism.org]
This has also infected academia. It's no surprise a lot of people with sarah sharp's attitudes have come out of the university system.
http://www.ucop.edu/academic-p... [ucop.edu]
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, women need to lighten the fuck up.
So, by default you assume the "man's perspective" is better than the "woman's perspective"? Interesting.
Also, as a man... grow up.
Re: Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Funny)
If that's your opinion, you're not much of a man.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
Professional behavior doesn't differ by gender. Even the words should be the same.
I never have to treat the women I work with differently because of their 'emotional state' or any gender issue.
Issue is obvious if you're not a SJW (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, because hormones, primary and secondary sexual characteristics, differences in nutrition, intuition, metabolism, ways of thinking, reflexes, strength, flexibility, personal dress, perception of customers and co-workers and workers lower and higher on the totem pole and the product and process(es) at hand, all personal interests that impact business thinking, not to mention (he mentioned) instinct and the male-female pola
Re:Issue is obvious if you're not a SJW (Score:5, Insightful)
What I have a problem with is people like [the GP], who try to pretend that we're all the same. We're not. Not only are men not the same as women, men are not the same as other men, and women are not the same as other women.
Strawman. That's not what the GP said. What s/he actually said was this:
Professional behavior doesn't differ by gender. Even the words should be the same.
No, we're not all the same, and arguably it's impossible for us to pretend that we are. Nevertheless, there are many contexts where it is crucial that we do acknowledge we are the same, such as professional courtesies, voting rights, and so on.
Re:Issue is obvious if you're not a SJW (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not a "men vs women" thing, it's an "asshole vs decent person" thing independent of gender.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
Professional behavior doesn't differ by gender. Even the words should be the same.
I never have to treat the women I work with differently because of their 'emotional state' or any gender issue.
I suggest that this is true because you instinctively treat people well and act in a professional manner. You may in fact be treating men and women differently without thinking that you are.
But the point is not that it's a problem, but that it's right. You're treating people as they would like to be treated. You're being considerate. You're keeping things on a professional, respectful plane.
If everyone did that, on both "sides" (as if there should even be "sides"), there would be few issues. And more productive work would definitely get done because the workplace would present a desirable environment conducive to doing work instead of having the destructive distraction of dealing with problem people.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
But you don't have to be a douchebag to get your message across tersely and efficiently.
Replace the italicized part with "unprofessional" to see what we can do differently to avoid problems.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
Terse, yes. Contains the word "fuckwad", no. Personal insults are neither professional nor efficient.
Re:Issue is more complicated (Score:5, Insightful)
To quote Linus about "professional"
Because if you want me to 'act professional,' I can tell you that I'm not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearing a bathrobe. The same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because THAT is what 'acting professionally' results in: people resort to all kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their normal urges in unnatural ways.
Re: (Score:3)
All men? Are we all toxic brogrammers or are you willing to accept that some of them know how to communicate effectively?
Re: (Score:3)
It's worth clarifying; I am an exceptional communicator. I can and do motivate others to achieve their best.
However. I find the required communication methods necessary to properly interface with most women exhausting. Necessary criticism must be delivered in such a way that takes far longer and requires far more redundant communication. Most men, however, are far easier to deal with. These are, of course, generalities.
That you don't have the same reactions suggests you are a far more natural communicator t
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Grammatically, it's fine.
The phrasing is not entirely sensible and could be improved, though.
Re:Well, yeah (Score:5, Insightful)
ubiquity and Git (Score:5, Insightful)
Is Linux successful? Debatable. It has success in limited uses,
These limited uses being "pretty much everything outside the desktop".
Servers, embed, high performance computing clusters, smartphones, robots, home appliances, etc.
And new uses still pop up on a regular basis.
Hardly a niche.
Though you probably are proud of explicitely using a non-Linux OS on your computer (Mac OS X ? Windows ?), fact is that you probably interact with a dozen of Linux powered device each day without noticing.
Linus accomplished a lot, but what groundbreaking thing has he done in the last 20 years?
Yeah, the guy has done nothing more that the Linux kernel in he's life. He's a one trick poney.
It's not like he would be ablto to do anything else like starting a distributed source control management (DSCM) that in practice almost replace any other SCM.
Oh, wait... [wikipedia.org]
Without Linus to create Git, you probably wouldn't have had communities like GitHub emerge nowadays (or they would have tried to built on much less optimal technology. Github is born out of the specific feature that with git, forks/merges/rebases are cheap - a specific feature that Linus needed to build in order to be able to use git for the kernel work).
Re:Well, yeah (Score:4, Insightful)
Is Linux successful? Debatable. It has success in limited uses, but has never grown beyond these uses. It is a feature, not a product. Linus accomplished a lot, but what groundbreaking thing has he done in the last 20 years?
None of which has much to do with the kernel. I doubt there's a single feature you can point to and say "because the kernel is missing/mis-implemented this, people will not adopt linux". The lack of adoption of linux in userspace, if it is due to any technical reason at all, is to do with problems in the userspace tools.
Re:Have you ever tried changing the 'culture'? (Score:4, Insightful)
I know plenty of geeks who are properly socialized and capable of normative human relations. If you are not one, perhaps you should become one.
Re:Have you ever tried changing the 'culture'? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Have you ever tried changing the 'culture'? (Score:4, Insightful)
you are not a geek , you sir are an asshat.
technical skill doesnt allow you to be horrible to people, neither does other people being horrible to you .
being horrible to people makes you a horrible person.
you allways have a choice how you deal with people , so be nice and you meet nice people and will become a nice person
Re:Have you ever tried changing the 'culture'? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't, and by the time the thickness of anyone's skin becomes a relevant factor you're already way out of line. It's not the geekiness that's toxic, it's the person. And oftentimes, a little bit of petty power is all it takes to coax someone's inner shithead to come out for all to see. Some will defend that shithead, saying petty power justifies abuse, and some will make excuses citing the shithead's special snowflakiness and torments of a genius mere mortals can't even imagine. And some will simply walk away from the smell of shit.