The Secret Lives of Ubuntu and Debian Users 501
jammag points out a look at statistics from the Popularity Contest projects on Debian and Ubuntu. These projects track the download and upgrade habits of their respective distributions' users, revealing — no surprise here — that Ubuntu users are more likely to be newbies than Debian users. The numbers reveal, for instance, that 86 percent of Ubuntu machines use the proprietary NVidia driver, where only a mere sliver of Debian machines do. Likewise, Debian users are far more eclectic in their software choice, less likely to use any default options. The article concludes with a look at the limits of what conclusions can be drawn from statistics like these. "In general, Debian users seem more eclectic in their use of software than Ubuntu users, and less likely to use an application simply because it is included by default. Debian users also seem more likely to be concerned to maintain a free installation than Ubuntu users — a conclusion that is hardly surprising when you consider Debian's reputation for freedom, but is still interesting to see being supported by statistics. ... To what extent last week's figures are typical is uncertain. Very likely, studying the figures over a longer period would produce different results. Possibly, too, those who participate in the Popularity Contests are not typical users of either Ubuntu or Debian. "
Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Funny)
Because I certainly don't.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Funny)
Obviously they are scheming to prevent people from taking online courses. Haven't you paid attention to the news?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Update to the original story here [wkowtv.com].
Seriously, with all the attention this story has gotten, all sorts of normal people will not want anything to do with Linux now. Way to F'n go.
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"unscrupulous reporting" is a pretty good description of what the so-called journalist did.
Although a more accurate description would be amateur.
The "journalist" clearly didn't examine the facts before publishing.
The bit about "accidentally buying Ubuntu" just takes the cake...
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The bit about "accidentally buying Ubuntu" just takes the cake...
So you're saying she purposely bought Ubuntu? The chick had no idea what Ubuntu is, what makes you think it was a conscious decision to purchase it?
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
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So next time you're in getting your car fixed and you don't know what a lower control arm is, I hope they call you an idiot.
I certainly would. If you don't know what something means, you can find out. If you don't, and you get ripped off, then you've only got your own lazy self to blame.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:4, Funny)
I certainly would. If you don't know what something means, you can find out. If you don't, and you get ripped off, then you've only got your own lazy self to blame.
While I'm all for "buyer beware" and having some knowledge about the services I'm hiring, I'd also still consider a con man a con man whether he was preying on my ignorance or not (and so would any other decent service tech - be it IT, auto mechanics, or what have you).
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:4, Insightful)
Clearly the journalist what no tech expert, which obviously the Linux community has no patience for. So next time you're in getting your car fixed and you don't know what a lower control arm is, I hope they call you an idiot.
This was moderated "insightful"?
Maybe it's my Buddhist influence speaking, but personally, I think the world could learn more patience. The next time you're in getting your car fixed, and you don't know what a lower control arm is, I hope they try their best to be courteous and helpful, and try explaining what a lower control arm is to you (assuming this knowledge is even at all relevant to solving whatever problem your car is having).
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Why? Because Dell doesn't exactly make it easy on you.
Anyone that bothered to fact check this story would see that right away.
Something like this should leave the random user knowing something
they didn't before, something meaningful rather than just being
sensational.
This is a key difference between journalism and trolling.
What would Murrow do with this story?
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Informative)
That's also when the comments - many of them angry, rude, and hateful - started pouring in. Some Ubuntu users accused 27 News of "unscrupulous reporting," hitting a "new low for local news," and writing an "atrocious article." Many Ubuntu users also wrote very personal attacks about the young lady who was having trouble using the operating system. They called her "lazy," "a dumb girl," and "not worthy of a college degree." The young woman also contacted 27 News to report she's being harassed on her Facebook account by Ubuntu users.
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She doesn't know how to access Internet with Ubuntu but she has a Facebook account ?
Did I miss something ?
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Informative)
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No, it is not *required*. Get your facts right. I've got Verizon DSL
Me to, and you're right; it's not required. But they tell you that it is. You and I may say to ourselves, "Stupid Verizon; I know better." But Jane average? She'll just follow instructions. And if Step 1 says "You have to insert the CD," well, when she inserts the CD and it doesn't work, she'll give up.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
It isn't requred, but they *tell* you it is required. The problem I've found with family that I'd give Linux machines to is that they would just go out and buy software, hardware, and services without checking if they were compatible with Linux or consulting with me. There are many users that don't understand what an OS is, they think that there are "computer CDs" and that they work like DVDs (and work everywhere). Really, those users aren't wrong -- its the situation that is screwed up. We should have been using a standard interpreter years ago, such as Java. People can lament the Java implementations all they want, but it was a great idea.
Those same users, when they get a CD from Verizon telling them to put it in, to get their internet working, will do just that. If it doesn't work, they won't blame Verizon (who is rightly at fault), they'll blame their computer for "not working right". Surely, because to them "computer CDs" are like DVDs and will "just work" unless their computer is broken. I know that this happens to Windows users too on occasion, they'll buy programs that only work under MacOS or Linux -- this happens much more rarely than the other way around, of course.
Of course, readers of Slashdot will know *why* it doesn't work, and *why* the situation is as it is, but we really need to do something about this. There should be a trademark logo program that can be used to certify disks or procedures that are platform independent. Verizon should make it clear that Linux (and other) operating systems will work with their services, and provide ample instructions that will not confuse users that don't know what an "operating system" is.
Vendors really need to get on the ball and realize that Linux is getting on enough devices now that they *do* have to support it, and they can't make it a magic black art that only power users and greater can accomplish. Linux on the desktop won't be a success as long as our grandmothers get hung-up on when they say their computer has Linux running on it. Grandmothers won't know that they need to lie on the phone when they call technical support, they won't even know what lie to concoct, and they shouldn't have to lie.
The truth is that if you run Linux today, you need to know what you're doing or entrust management of your systems to someone that does -- not because Linux is difficult, but because vendors will make your life hell otherwise.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, I have not yet seen many smart new Linux user who is swithed from Windows to Ubuntu ditribution. I read three different Ubuntu forums (eng, fi, swe) and all the skilled Ubuntu users are mostly from other distributions who has learn things correctly.
Every day you can find out on typical comments of blogs, news on web or other kind sites where Ubuntu users are blaming other distributions, giving instructions to do sudo this and sudo that, marketing the "uber" package manager of _Ubuntu_ (they dont even always know it is from Debian) etc.
And when you point out to them the CoC (Code of Conduct) page of Ubuntu, they plame you to be a liar or n00b who should STFU.
There is BIG difference between Ubuntu and Debian users.
Debian users knows that "Free" on the "Free software" means Freedom but not the price.
Ubuntu users believes that "Free" on the "Free software" means no cost and rights to relicense copyrighted material as GPL without permission, because GPL is FREE".
You can go any almost any place to find out that mostly bad behavior conduction people are _ubuntu_ users.
It gives very terrible view of Ubuntu when the most comments what are coming from Ubuntu users, are totally wrong or idiotic. All my friends are in feeling that Ubuntu turns people to somekind zombies to be included army of Canonical and to be praise the Ubuntu.
Two years ago, you got gnome-look.org or kde-look.org sites for Gnome and KDE. Now you have more stuff to Ubuntu and Kubuntu. You are more easily finding a wallpapers or even the icon packs or themes to be build as Ubuntu DEB package than standard tar.gz package what could be used on Gnome desktop what ever Linux-distribution or other than Linux OS is used with Gnome.
If most newbies comes switch from Windows to Ubuntu. It is predictable that most idiotic users can be found from there. Because if someone speaks out the truth about stuff, you get answered as STFU because you might "hurt" someones knowledge by being too technical or accurate. Because the usage should be "easy" and "simple". It is good that you even can use "Distribution" word without being flamed as geek or nerd who does not understant that "Distribution == Operating System" so you should not say "Different distributions" but "Different Operating Systems".
When someone comes to computer site to ask help about Windows installation, soon there might me first Ubuntu user suggesting that he/she should install Ubuntu because the OS includes a great office package, is easier to use etc. And other Linux users and even Windows users are needed to help the first commenter to solve her/his problem with Windows.
The more things change the more they stay the same (Score:5, Interesting)
But honestly, I think this is just what happens when popularity increases with anything. I remember when the majority of people on the Internet (if you would really call it that) were between intelligent and highly intelligent individuals discussing a wide range of topic (though usually leaning towards the nerdy side) in a civilized manner.
Going from telnet to web browsing changed everything! The number of people online was approaching a million! The number of servers you could connect to or 'sites' you could now 'browse to' was skyrocketing! People starting making their own web sites and hosting forums at home, and there were just tons of people all excited to be involved in this new medium, despite the fact they had no idea what they were doing.
And then AOL came along, and Geocities. Soon everyone had a web page for their cat, and flame wars seemed to be the thing in every chat room. It was just like the parlor [youtube.com] times a million! This was about the time I stopped going into chat rooms at all, because it was just intolerable.
But eventually we got slashdot, google, ebay, wikipedia, archieve.org, eff, findlaw, loc.gov, youtube, hulu, piratebay, thinkfree, change.gov and so many others both recently and over the years.
I miss the days when every person I knew that had a computer had taken it apart and put it back together many times, they all had some minimal programming skill, and nerdy groups of people would be going around to business or telling our non-nerd friends "you could do that so much better if you had a COMPUTER!", to which they would reply, "that stuff is for nerds, I am doing just fine with my typewriter". "There's nothing I can do with a computer I can't do on my typewriter", and "computers just make it more complicated and expensive".
There was no convincing them. You would try to explain, but they wouldn't listen.
Then one day they would come you you and be all like "Hey, guess what? I got one of those Pentium things! Isn't that cool!" and all you could do is smile and sigh. And after that, it was the endless phone calls for little things that you didn't mind, because it was exactly what you had been pushing for in the first place. But sometimes it made you wonder.
Soon, the round table discussions over new technologies in the library were replaced with sheep-dip seminars (thank you Andy Hunt), row after row of zombies watching someone explain what a mouse was for, and how to put things in the trash. Soon you had all these 'experts' saying that they knew more about computers than anyone because they had taken a class. Oh, the humanity...
So what a surprise that after all these years, we are still seeing the same type of revolution. Yes, I miss the 'Internet' when it was between 10,000 and 100,000 users, but those times are gone, and in the big picture, the new even more nerdy stuff is worth it.
They say that Linux userbase / marketshare (or whatever way Microsoft feels like measuring it one day to the next) is about 1%, but it is easy to see it is the top 1%. Maybe it is just me, but I don't see an even distribution be user base as a whole of computer experts between exclusive Linux users and exclusive Windows users. It is the same one percent 20+ years ago trying to get people to use computers because it was the futu
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really think no MS fanboy would have harassed her?
Hmm. My experience is that the MS fanboys are far less passionate about their choice than either the Linux or Mac fanboys. Perhaps it is the complacency of the mainstream?
You are correct that there are fanboys for just about everything, and I expect you are right that someone would have responded had she blamed Microsoft, but I doubt there would have been the same depth of disparagement and certainly not the same quantity. Fewer MS fans would have bothered to respond...
I use both Linux and Windows and like them both. I used Macs a very long time ago, but their price pushed me to Windows and then Linux (I'm talking about before Jobs left the first time...). I enjoy working with all three, but wouldn't consider myself a fan of any of them any more than I'm a fan of my television.
Ezmode (Score:2, Informative)
These guys do the same stuff that everyone else does, except they do it with style because they use Linux.
Re:Ezmode (Score:5, Funny)
These guys do the same stuff that everyone else does, except they do it with style because they use Linux.
Everybody else sits in their parents' basement eating Cheetos and masturbating to Japanese tentacle porn? And how do you do that with style?
Re:Ezmode (Score:5, Funny)
Everybody else sits in their parents' basement eating Cheetos and masturbating to Japanese tentacle porn?
What an insulting thing to say! I don't even like Cheetos, let alone eat them.
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Seriously, do you /really/ want to know what they do behind closed doors?
That's funny, don't get me wrong, it is.
But if Microsoft had published this kind of data on users downloading habits, this would have been published under YRO.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:4, Informative)
They could very easily track everything at the repository servers, but they're not doing that because that would harm your privacy.
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...if Microsoft had published this kind of data on users downloading habits, this would have been published under YRO.
That's because if Microsoft tracked this information, they wouldn't have asked your permission to opt-in.
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I'm sure it's posted elsewhere, but you have to go out of your way to opt-in to send these statistics off. Theres no coercion involved, and you know exactly what it's for when you check that box.
Sure there is plenty of anti-ms sentiment here, but your claim of hypocrisy, in this case, is unfounded and borderline troll.
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You can "sudo dpkg -r popularity-contest".
You can "less
There are some huge differences.
Reminds me of this: http://www.linuxgenuineadvantage.org/
I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
Even though I won't use a sackcloth-and-ashes-free-only computer, those issues are important. "Pragmatism" in the short term is anything but in the long term. If effort isn't exerted to keep platforms from being closed and replacements developed for things that are closed but commonly used then eventually it will be others who dictate how you compute and what sort of computing is permissible. Myself, I prefer to own my own media and hardware and to connect (ethically) to whatever machines on the Internet I see fit, use whatever protocols I see fit, and adapt any device I own to any purpose that I might desire. Annoying as they may often be, we ignore the proponents of openness and freedom at our peril.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Been a UNIX sysadmin since 1984. What's on my desktop? Ubuntu. Why? My wife uses it and it works just fine for her.
It replaced a Vista desktop and frankly Ubuntu makes much better use of the hardware. She's never installed a package
and she never will, but when she docks her camera it works. When she docks a USB stick it works. Same for Youtube video, etc.
It all just works. So I share your sentiment. My firewall / server is openbsd. I can ssh into it from my G1 phone. Eventually
I'll set up VPN for s
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:4, Informative)
When I ran Debian on my web server, however, I had to have a firm hand in the unstable branch (which was usually very stable) just to keep up with web server and app server patches (and ssh, and python, and a few others)
Debian backports all security patches to its stable branches (that security.debian.org entry in your sources.list file? That's the type of stuff that goes there). The unstable updates are for features, but you don't need to be concerned about their release cycle because of security. They keep up to date.
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The name should give an idea how useful it is.
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RMS doesn't use Debian because it's not free enough, as in it allows you to add the non-free repository.
RMS pushes a thoroughly non-free license (GFDL) with invariant parts which are uneditable, non-removable. They keep you from doing a lot of things like, say, printing a reference card or... using GFDLed snippets in GPL code!
So nyah, in comparison with Debian (not having any non-free code in Debian proper), what RMS gives you is less free (bad core documentation). He violates the Four Software Freedoms [gnu.org] he made himself -- to be exact, freedom 0 and freedom 3.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. I've also been using Linux since the mid 90s. I think people underestimate how much even experienced users appreciate a slightly more polished and easy-to-user product.
I love Linux and would still use a raw distribution if I really had to. However, the fact that Ubuntu has an effective GUI, updates "just work" and that installing new software is so easy is a massive bonus. Now I can get on with actually getting my work done rather than dicking about with configuration files and Make for hours.
All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:4, Informative)
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On Xubuntu 8.10 at least, you drag it into the trash and it's moved there, then you empty the trash and it's gone, just as with a regular file.
Still, even if it didn't let you all you had to do would be to remove the read-only flag from the file before deleting it, just as with Windows, and you don't need a terminal for that. Don't overreact.
Re:All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you expect a novice driver to press the clutch before throwing a manual transmission into gear? Of course not. When you switch to a new system, there are things you will have to learn. Saying that Ubuntu isn't "ready for the desktop" because of situations like this is very much like saying a manual transmission isn't "ready for the road".
To some people "ready for the desktop" means "exactly like windows, even to the exclusion of those features that make Linux more secure". That's just not realistic.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:4, Interesting)
I love Linux and would still use a raw distribution if I really had to.
Debian is not "raw" in the least. In fact, when I did a fresh install of etch recently, I was honestly surprised at how easy the installation process had become (the last time I did a full reinstall was probably 2002 when I bought the machine that I was replacing).
I am not going to claim that I walked uphill both ways when I started with Linux but after looking at the differences in installing Debian in 2002 vs 2008, it certainly made Slackware's 1996 install and RedHat 5.2 for Alpha look like a fucking walk in the park.
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Debian is not "raw" in the least. In fact, when I did a fresh install of etch recently, I was honestly surprised at how easy the installation process had become (the last time I did a full reinstall was probably 2002 when I bought the machine that I was replacing).
I wasn't trying to say that modern Debian was raw, but rather that the polish of modern distros (including Debian) not only lowers the barrier to entry for Linux in general, but also is very important to people who are capable of the more advanced stuff.
In summary: so far, making Linux easier for newbies has also make it better for experts. This might sound obvious, but I don't think one necessarily follows from the other.
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In summary: so far, making Linux easier for newbies has also make it better for experts. This might sound obvious, but I don't think one necessarily follows from the other.
It doesn't. Take a look at Windows 2K vs XP for instance, setting up a LAN with shared internet connection is, for someone who knows what he's doing, as trivial as it'd be on UNIX/Linux. But try doing the same on XP without all the goddamned tutorials and talking dogs driving you crazy. So it's commendable that Debian's changes have mostly been not only beneficial for the newbies, but also for us experts at the same time.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Funny)
Please enter you monitor refresh ratings, ranges can be defined with a hyphen and separated with commas.
Note - if you get this wrong your monitor may expel its magic smoke.
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Please refer to this list of several thousand video cards and type in the hexadecimal representation for your given video card and chipset as provided in the list! Note - if you get this wrong your monitor and/or video card may expel magic smoke.
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Ubuntu won me over from Gentoo, which certainly has an image of being one of the more "hardcore" distros.
Why?
Ubuntu had nearly Debian-level stability, but new-ish packages, so it wasn't like the dunking-your-head-in-a-bucket-of-cold-water experience of going from bleeding-edge Gentoo to Debian Unstable or whatever. Everything was new enough that at least you wouldn't have to compile updated libraries to get some app from outside the repositories to build properly.
Ubuntu automated the stuff that I wanted to
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Interesting)
Second that. I've been using Ubuntu for about 2 years, before that it was Debian. Frankly I haven't got time to piss about, I just want it working. I don't have a problem with binary only drivers like NVidia. I support the idea of free software as far as possible, but if it doesn't do the job, then I'm not going to go without.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty for a video driver deserve neither liberty nor video drivers." -someone else's sig
All cheekiness aside, if you want to be stuck with shitty unsupportable binary-only drivers forever, by all means keep using nVidia. Every time you install that damn thing it tells them that you're willing to put up with their bullshit and please sir may I have another.
I'm not. I demand shit that works. Failing that, I demand to be able to find out why. If my shit doesn't work and I c
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Interesting)
These days there are a number of OSs derived from Debian and Ubuntu that should be considered. Mint is superior. Also Mepis, I believe is now based upon Debian.
I suspect that many Ubuntu users who try these lesser known derived distros would prefer them.
Odd stats - (Score:4, Interesting)
"GNOME is installed on 85% of Ubuntu installations and 50% of Debian installations, and has been used recently by 78% of Ubuntu users and 55% of Debian users."
Does this mean that they track per user rather than per box?
I'd also be interested in architectures, does Ubuntu support anywhere near the same range?
I'm a bit of a die-hard debian user because for me it works well and doesn't try to hide settings and operations like ubuntu sometimes does. This is one of the things that put me off windows and I don't like it replicated on Linux in the name of ease of use. I also realise this puts me firmly in the "geek that likes to tinker" category.
Re:Odd stats - (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd also be interested in architectures, does Ubuntu support anywhere near the same range?
I've got little experience with Debian, but can compare Ubuntu to Fedora and say that Ubuntu sacrifices bells and whistles that a "tinker" like yourself would prefer so that it can deliver ease-of-use. The most glaring difference that I've noticed is right at the very beginning while you're installing it... Fedora presents you with a list of hundreds of packages/application to install and Ubuntu (if I recall correctly) just sets you up with a system that's good for "most purposes" without giving you the same wide options.
As my choice for a computer that's doing anything besides web-browsing, word processing, picture editing, and music playing... I'd avoid Ubuntu. However, I'm proud to run Ubuntu on my laptop because that's all I use it for.
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I don't use mine for much more. I have Debian on a couple of (ARM) servers and ran Ubuntu on my laptop for a while, until X started bombing out when it was in nVidia mode and attached to its dock. Tried all the available driver versions, including brand new betas, no joy, gave up. Went back to Debian and it "just worked".
I probably couldn't actually put my finger on what's different between them, in general, as user of debian testing.
Re:Odd stats - (Score:5, Insightful)
pppffftt
Why burden the end user at install time when you've got such a cool
package manager as apt-get or synaptic waiting for them on the other
side? You can literally start with the Debian net installer, use the
most barest of options and have a functioning system afterwards that
can easily add anything else you want.
You don't need an F-350 full of water bottles on the front lawn.
You've got indoor plumbing.
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Why burden the end user at install time when you've got such a cool package manager [...] [Debian net installer, most barest of options, easily add anything else you want.]
I'd guess that most people see waiting as an easy burden to shoulder--you read today's paper while doing it--while having to install everything in itty bitty increments and not knowing what to install is a much harder burden.
Given that Ubuntu is aimed at satisfying the needs and wants of "most people", I think Canonical made the right choice for Ubuntu.
By the way, the Debian project also made the right choice for Debian.
Re:Odd stats - (Score:5, Interesting)
Debian *does* just work, for me, because I can see what's going on.
Ubuntu has hidden more stuff so that when it doesn't work it's hard to figure out. For me, a professional Software Engineer with a penchant for *nix.
I'm not missing any functionality either.
So wait a second... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Interesting)
I use the proprietary ATI driver. /usr/local.
I have Gnome installed, but my desktop environment is e17, installed in
I must be a newbie.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Informative)
I suspect that my behavior is actually about par for Debian users, i.e. as TFA says, Debian users don't tend to install the default packages. I know I don't. I usually start with just the basic install and add the desktop packages I want because there are so many packages included in the default desktop that I don't want.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Funny)
"Real nerds use Intel GMA 900s!"
REAL nerds use ASCII graphics, you poser!
Re:So wait a second... (Score:5, Informative)
Real nerds contribute to X. *hint, hint*
On another note, nouveau provides EXA, which makes it faster than nvidia for 2D on all the cards it supports. Just FYI. (They're working on 3D, too, but it'll take a bit since nVidia's still firmly in kitten-killing territory.)
Re:So wait a second... (Score:5, Funny)
On another note, nouveau provides EXA, which makes it faster than nvidia for 2D on all the cards it supports. Just FYI. (They're working on 3D, too, but it'll take a bit since nVidia's still firmly in kitten-killing territory.)
Yup - 'cause when I'm driving home from Fry's with a brand spankin' new Nividia card in my hot little hands, the whole way I'm thinking "oh boy is Open Office gonna scream now!" :)
(Although I really am looking forward to when the 3D support gets hashed out)
Re:So wait a second... (Score:5, Informative)
Having *just* installed Hardy Heron, I also note that upon first booting the machine and logging in, an icon shows up next to the "updates available" icon that looks like a little graphics card, and when you click on it, it points out that you have *not* installed the proprietary nvidia driver, but by golly, click here and we'll do it right now! Which I did. Which helped performance. So while it may not be done by default, it's something any user would notice immediately (any user of Ubuntu).
Maybe a new install of Etch + Gnome would exhibit the same behavior, but really, if the OS *tells you* up front that you're missing an important (albeit proprietary) driver specific to your hardware, the likelihood of that driver then being installed is bound to go way up.
I will also say, it's gratifying to have the *option* to install a proprietary driver clearly presented, with a commentary about what "proprietary driver" actually means, and why / why not I should install this driver. Some will choose to use the nvidia driver, and some will not, but educating the end user about what their options are and what they mean is really a great feature in Ubuntu, and I think nicely bridges the gap between "must be free" and "just do it for me".
$.02
Neil
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Or perhaps it's buying nVidia cards that makes you a "newbie"? Real nerds use Intel GMA 900s!
And those who use a serial console or an ssh terminal session are considered what?
Re:So wait a second... (Score:5, Funny)
Dinosaurs.
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Newbie, no. But it does reveal some of your beliefs about free software.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Insightful)
Using the proprietary nVidia driver makes you a "newbie"?
I think these statistics reflect adherence to the Debian's social contract [debian.org] more than number of noobs.
Debian users care most about using open source software, where Ubuntu users care most about what "just works."
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Funny)
Masochists.
Users vs. Uses (Score:3, Insightful)
In my firm we've used Debian for 10 years or so for all our servers. Clearly the choice of packages is a big part of keeping the systems clean and secure, and the most exotic hardware issues were with RAID disks.
Contrast that with my last desktop install where a fresh Kubuntu can't do better than 800x600 until the Nvidia drivers were activated.
The main advantage of Ubuntu is the speed which which it adapts to new hardware, but non-free drivers is part of the price to pay for that. (Another part is the instability in new versions.)
Recruitment (Score:5, Interesting)
Since 2009 is the Year of the Linux Desktop (!), the number of Ubuntu users is probably going to continue to grow. While this is great, these statistics show that an Ubuntu user is not (yet) as useful to the community as a Debian user.
It would be good if statistics like this could be used to start grooming the next generation of contributors to these projects. Just because they're n00bs (and not necessarily programmers) doesn't mean they can't be useful in reporting bugs, testing new features, amending documentation, suggesting UI improvements and so on.
Knowing what activities people engage in will help decide where to aim appeals for help and how to improve and facilitate contributions at the first level. The larger this group of low level helpers, the greater the number who can be converted into more serious contributors.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because they're n00bs (and not necessarily programmers) doesn't mean they can't be useful in reporting bugs, testing new features, amending documentation, suggesting UI improvements and so on.
I am a programmer and even I never bother with bug reports any more, especially with regard to usability enhancements. All that ever happens is some dev looks at it from a technical developer perspective and marks it INVALID-WONTFIX.
The reason Ubuntu has so many users is that the developers get given stuff to fix, not comment on why they think it is not a bug. Quite often software developers are not able to put themselves in the shoes of a user and see how inconvenient or annoying certain "features" are. In
Re:Recruitment (Score:4, Interesting)
Make no mistake getting people off of windows and onto linux is good for us all
Maybe in persuading 3rd parties to support Linux more explicitly, but simply using Linux does not make them productive members of the community.
they'll encourage linux developers to craft better interfaces rather than ones that will simply get you by with the more advanced users.
A good software product is useable by its target audience. In the past, the target audience has been either advanced users or other programmers. In this case, the user interfaces were often productive and intuitive, if not graphical. If the user base changes, the interface should change to fit the demographic, but that does not mean that the previous interface was inferior or bad. Personally, I still prefer command-line utilities, as they can easily be run from automated scripts.
Desktop vs. server? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Let me second this. I my desktop/laptop systems that run Ubuntu, but all my servers are running Debian.
Tag this one obvious. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know when I install Debian, I don't even bother with any of the major metapackages. I just install a base system, and apt-get whatever I need. That way, I know everything that is on the machine, and it's all stuff I use. Of course, doing this in Ubuntu would defeat the whole point, which is to have a well managed set of applications preinstalled for you. So it seems obvious that Ubuntu users would use a lot more of the same software than Debian users.
Gnome users (Score:5, Interesting)
The relatively low number of Debian [Gnome] users is probably explained by the fact that [...] users are more likely to choose one of the dozens of alternative desktops.
No, it's probably explained by Debian's heavier use in reliability-focused server environments where a desktop is a waste of resources.
Maybe they ought to change those options... (Score:5, Insightful)
> Debian users are far more eclectic in their software choice, less likely to use any default options.
When most of your experienced users think your default options are crap and refuse to use any of them, perhaps it is a good time to change those defaults, eh?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
To what? If you have 100 users and 99 of those users change their defaults to one setting, yes, it should be adopted as the new default. But if you have them changing to 99 different defaults then what should you change it to? Most of the debian defaults I've found allow the package to 'work'.
Interesting note (Score:4, Insightful)
Cool to know that's where they are pulling their package ratings info. This has been tremendously useful in my family - I just tell the wife "I dunno, install the one with the most stars and see how it works for you." I'll have to install the Popularity Contest package so I can add to their data, even though I don't subscribe to idea of having a "contest" at all.
what? (Score:4, Insightful)
How does that classify a user as a newbie instead of just someone interested in playing games through WINE, or someone interested in graphics performance?
Who cares about binary drivers (Score:4, Insightful)
Regular people just want their computers to fucking work.
It's also why Apple keeps selling computers.
If you can't understand that, then you're clueless.
freedom? (Score:4, Interesting)
Using the NVidia driver gives me more freedom, not less. It gives me the freedom to run 3d apps, while the open source driver gives me no extra freedom as I have zero intention of fiddling with its source code.
Re:freedom? (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, but does it give you the ability to be a smug about your choice of computer software?
I think not.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Using the NVidia driver gives me more freedom
Only in the short term, and it's detrimental for freedom the long term.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It gives me the freedom to run 3d apps
No, it gives you the ability to (meaningfully) run certain apps. Your right and freedom to do so is not affected by your choice of driver.
while the open source driver gives me no extra freedom as I have zero intention of fiddling with its source code.
What you want to do is not the same as what you're allowed to do. You're not allowed all the four freedoms with the non-free nvidia driver, you are with the open source one. Just because you don't want to exercise the freedom you have doesn't mean you don't have it.
The nvidia driver is probably the better choice for you: by your own words, you'd rather run certain appl
I run Debian on ARM (Score:2)
So therefore nVidia drivers are irrelevant to me - does that get factored in, or am I "a debian user who does not use nvidia drivers" ?
RPM vs DEB, from a Mandriva user. (Score:2)
I really wish that the RPM vs. DEB debate. I wish it would be settled. I have Mandriva machines and I have Ubuntu machines. I really wish that I could install RPMs or DEBs on both distributions transparently. It doesn't necessarily mean that there has to be the exclusion of RPMs or DEBs, I just wish that I didn't need to use utilities like Alien to convert one package type to another. I wish I could use both package formats, at least for non-critical systems interchangably, and if Ubuntu has a DEB for somet
nvidia (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Trying to find drivers on some website, and running some installer hoping it won't clobber over files managed by apt/dpkg is not my idea of family fun.
"Trying to find drivers on some website" sucks? Where the hell did you find "apt-get install nvidia-kernel-2.6-amd64 nvidia-glx nvidia-settings"?
A non-power user at least has a shot at understanding one of those things.
Debian HAS default options? (Score:5, Informative)
Having used primarily Debian at home for years, I installed Ubuntu a couple of days ago (a switch from Windows, as I tend to run side-by-side but lost the use of one PC about a year ago).
Ubuntu dropped me right into a nice desktop with zero configuration, then asked me if I wanted to install the nvidia driver.
I seem to remember that every time I installed Debian, it left me on the console or failed to start X despite trying, after asking a bunch of configuration questions. I usually ended up doing everything by hand and installing only what I wanted, because whenever I asked for "the defaults" they just didnt work. Debian certainly never asked me to install the Nvidia driver- the only way to do so would be to go get it myself. Lack of a working 3d driver is why I was on Windows for so long, and I only went back to Linux because I was sick of trying to get cygwin to do what I wanted.
Now I'm in Linux, with 3d and sound working perfectly. It only dropped me to console once (and once is enough to mean I'd never recommend it for ANYONE). Using default options for nearly everything. Tablet still doesn't work correctly, I've yet to meet a Linux where it does, but I can live without pressure sensitivity for a week or so.
In short: people don't use defaults in debian because they are broken and suck. People use proprietary software in Ubuntu because they're given the option.
unlike windows users (Score:3, Funny)
Take the ideology and shove it (Score:3, Informative)
And we wonder why Linux can't seem to make inroads onto the desktop, when the headline and no small number of posters here are not at all subtle about looking down their noses at anyone who isn't dedicated enough to an ideology to intentionally cripple their machine's 3D performance.
Face facts: 95% of people who use X do not and never will care about the ideology behind X for all X in Software. If you insist on demeaning them or inconveniencing them with your ideology, they won't use your software. I'm going to go play a 3D game that's not a slideshow now...
Debian users are getting old (Score:3, Interesting)
Many Debian users like to tweak their systems just for fun, not because it's useful. They like the feeling of control when they know everything that's installed. They like the feeling of understanding how everything fits in their systems. And that's good. It's fun and you learn a lot.
But these things about "ubuntu hiding things" just mean that some of them are becoming obsolete. They miss the times when Linux was simple: kernel, userland, X server, applications. All clearly separated, all easy to grasp. With all these "new" things like udev, hal, upstart ("how do they dare to remove /etc/inittab?!?!?") ... they feel they're losing control. They no longer know everything. So the first reaction is refusal: Ubuntu must be bad.
Ubuntu is great. I've used Debian for more than ten years, and I'm still using that for work. I love it: it works and it's rock solid (usually). It's well thought and sysadmin-friendly. I was a (bad) debian developer. But Ubuntu is good too. It works. And it's still Debian. All Debian goodies are there.
And if many people are switching to Ubuntu, if the level of Ubuntu users is not so "elite" like Debian users, that's a good sign. It's new blood.
We complain for years and years saying that Linux can be used by "normal users" (when, let's face it, we were pretty far from it), and now that it's becoming true, we are fearful of losing our aura of eliteness. We attack the ones that are achieving it because they're not "pure enough". What a band of jerks we are. How much insecurity lies in the bottom of the Linux community?
We can't live in our ivory tower of perfect freedom and simplicity forever. Get out a bit and talk to real people. Ubuntu is Debian for real people.
pfft (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Actually it probably means that Deb users are not as interested in their graphics, less likely to be running a machine that's desktop oriented etc.
I know I have two debian boxes with no screens at all, so GFX drivers are just not useful.
Re: (Score:2)
50% of those questions are, why doesn't ubuntu work like windows.. :(
More important than the questions are the people who answer them.
In my experience, most of my questions in #ubuntu have gone unanswered. A good portion of my questions in #debian have been answered*. I remember once asking in the appropriate channel, not getting an answer, then asking the question in #gentoo and getting an answer.
* I should be fair, though: I installed debian first, and ubuntu some years later. I've probably asked a lot of easy questions in #debian that I didn't have to ask in #ubuntu.
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously, what is wrong with this question? Noone is going to switch from Windows to *NIX, if they can't do the things they want, or at the very least have it explained to them why they can't or shouldn't in a non-condescending way.