Netbook Return Rates Much Higher For Linux Than Windows 663
ivoras writes "An interview with MSI's director of US Sales, Andy Tung, contains this interesting snippet: "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven't really talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don't know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and start realizing that it's not what they are used to. They don't want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks.'"
Which retailers? (Score:5, Funny)
And are they selling the returned notebooks at a big discount?
ya, really (Score:2, Informative)
Where are the half price (whatever) cheap refurb units being sold for these netbooks then?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Education would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, put some videos on there that explain how to do common tasks. Tasks that are better on linux than on windows. (Like finding/installing cool toys/software/games). Make the videos right there on the desktop. Once consumers find out they can do the things they want, and easily, they will like it.
Mod Parent +1 Funny (Score:5, Funny)
Games! Good one, sir.
Try a few of these free games... (Score:5, Informative)
Just to straighten things out a bit, I recommend you try a few of these games:
FPSes:
Strategy (mixing real-time and turn-based):
Others:
Those are all packages I found with a quick `aptitude search "~i~sGames"; that is, these are games that are packaged and trivially easy to install straight out of the box.
You can of course also install wine and create bottles for Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo II if you have those games [or you can buy them at blizzard.com [isohunt.com]], among many others (so I hear).
Or you can install DosBox and play your old dos games (One Must Fall is the win). Or you can install uae (Amiga), vice (Commodore: Pets, VIC-20, 64, 128, CBM-II, PLUS/4), pscx (PlayStation), xmess (Atari 400/800/2600, Lynx, NES, SNES, GameBoy, Sega Master System, Sega Megadrive) or mame. Apologies to all emulators that I left out.
I'm not saying that Linux is just as great a gaming OS as windows. But claiming that there are next to no good games that are runnable on linux is simply being uninformed. And the cowsay bit, that was just making fun ;)
Re:Try a few of these free games... (Score:4, Insightful)
"FPSes:
* Nexuiz
* OpenArena
* Tremulous
* Warsow
* Sauerbraten
* Alien Arena"
Dude... have you actually played any of those? I applaud the efforst of those teams, and I admit that many of them have potential, but they aren't even on par with a lot of the 3rd party hl (let alone hl2) mods in terms of graphics and playability... and that bar is pretty damned low.
That said, I agree that the Linux gaming scene isn't all doom and gloom, Battle for Wesnoth in particular is a great game and one of my favorites on any platform, but the FPS offerings are definitely on the weak side.
Of course, one can always just run Steam via Wine. Source is unstable, but DoD runs like a champ.
Re:Mod Parent +1 Funny (Score:4, Funny)
Hey! Games like Spore and The Orange Box don't hold a candle to Tux Racer!
Re:Education would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember my first Mac had a 1,44" Floppy with a very cool tutorial app that illustraded the most important steps you had to do in order to get started: click to open an app, how drag&drop works, where the apps are located, how to save a document and how to open one. I was 15 years old, and I remember I very much enjoyed the little tutorial app, it was funny and helped me getting started quickly. I agree with you here: put a quick (max 15min) comic style tutorial app on the desktop, and people will have a different view on the whole thing, and like it more.
Re:Education would fix that (Score:5, Interesting)
I sell Ubuntu desktops and laptops, and I include something like this with every new rig that leaves my shop. It actually started as a textfile, but it's slowly mutating into a multimedia extravaganza, with screencasts, voice-overs, the whole nine yards. I'd like to wrap it all up in a script that automatically opens the applications I'm talking about at the time, so users can follow along with me. I've got too much time on my hands.
Re:Education would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
You should start a sourceforge project for your tutorial thingy. Seriously. It's folks like you who really are making Linux easier and more enjoyable to use for the next less geeky set of Linux users. Kudos to you.
Marketing would fix that (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Education would fix that (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not that they don't want to learn, they learned the wrong stuff and now can't/don't wanna adapt because they're lazy. So I blame the people for not learning "technology" but learning "Microsoft technology" which is kinda sad.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Education would fix that (Score:5, Interesting)
Without going into many details, I'm not exactly a n00b. Given that my first interaction with a keyboard was on a new Commodore PET, there's a strong possibility I've been doing this longer than many of the people in this thread have been alive.
Want to know why I spend 2/3rds of my time in Windows (the rest in SuSE 10.3 on KDE 3.x)
1) The games I play, play in Windows. I have no inclination to fumble-fuck around with emulators or what have you trying to get MS Flight Simulator 2004 or STALKER or Team Fortress 2 running on Linux, not sure it's even possible.
2) The fonts in Windows have been optimized at the per-pixel level to match up with LCD monitors. In KDE 3.x the fonts are about where they were in the Windows 3.1 world, circa 1995. Big pudgy letters that my eyes have to fight to glom. Especially in FireFox on Linux.
3) For fucks sake - where's the calculator? It's bad enough that I can't hover over the different parts of the start menu (or what ever it's called) and just see what's under there, drill down without it hiding all the other stuff because it 'page flipped' - but the calculator isn't called 'calculator'. It's called kcalc. And the movie player isn't called 'movie player'. It's called ICEwigga or something. And the music player isn't called 'music player' - it's called kude or some shit like that.
I can get past the games, because - I understand.
I can get past the fonts, because - it's only a matter of time before they get better.
But if we don't start naming the applications a little better in Linux, there's NO WAY it's going mainstream. If someone with 25+ years software engineering experience can't play movies because the movie player is hidden behind the name ICEwigga or whatever, what does that mean for the regular people? It means they are going to use Windows - simple as that.
All that useless ranting aside - I am totally looking forward to picking up a 'refurb' Linux based netbook for 1/3rd off retail.
Re:Education would fix that (Score:4, Funny)
That's GNU/ICEwigga
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Wine. Is not. A fucking. Emulator.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Ubuntu's pretty much got that one licked. You try to run something that isn't installed but is in the repository database, you get an error message along the lines of "$FOO is not installed. You can install it by typing sudo apt-get install $FOO."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Users tend to be fearful of command lines. They're afraid of mistakes that will wreck something badly.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
True, but even people who hate to learn were forced to learn Windows at some point in the past. Today, inertia what is keeping Windows rolling, but as Linux becomes more and more mainstream, those people will have to learn something new. And if not Linux, then something else, after all at some point Windows will have to be replaced, it's just a matter of time. A paradigm shift can be delayed, but not avoided forever.
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We see more and more people who are interested in tinkering with their systems, develop small apps and do all kinds of weird stuff to the OS.
Really? What is your source of data for that one? In my experience, it's the exact opposite. When I started in computing, everybody had to be a hacker to some extent. These days, far fewer people are interested, the computer is a productivity tool, not something to hack with. And especially not to "do all kinds of weird stuff to the OS." How many people do you really think want to do that? and why do you want your OS doing weird things? I think that's the exact opposite of what people want, power users or n
Yes, But Linux Is Not The Incentive (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I read the article. Yes, I know that they're looking at Ubuntu. Regardless of what it looks like, Ubuntu is still Linux. People who can't find the Word icon will still be unhappy.
No, saving a little money is not enough reason for most Windows users to switch.
Look, I'm not bashing Linux. I used it for a decade. But it is naive to expect people to willingly throw away their investment in Windows (time and money) simply to learn an OS that allows them to keep on doing the same things.
If someone is happy using, say, Word and Photoshop, what's attractive in hearing that Linux can't run Word and Photoshop but they can do pretty much the same things with Openoffice and Gimp, once they take the time to learn how to use them? Why should they do that when they can keep on using Word and Photoshop?
Like I said, i used Linux for ten years. I switched to Apple a few years ago because I wanted wireless to work. Now, I need to buy new hardware. I could easily save a few bucks and run Linux on something. But, why should I? I like Apple software, I'm accustomed to using it. Everything I did in Linux I can do on a Mac, often with greater ease and reliability. Why should I care if Linux allows me to do the same things once I learn how to use it and a bunch of new programs? Where's the incentive? There are tens of millions of Windows users thinking the same thing.
Re:Yes, But Linux Is Not The Incentive (Score:4, Insightful)
When I got hired to convert a small company from Windows to Linux ( and train the staff ) I spent some time one on one with each person, selling them on things like yakuake ( I chose KDE ). But the most important thing I did was convince them that wrt to ui and set up, "if you can imagine and articulate it, I can probably show you how to set it up that way".
This was really hard to do because people who use Windows aren't used to thinking that way. But eventually I had everyone coming to me with ideas on how to make 'their' workspace more useful. And they were happy to be using Linux because they liked it, not because their company was saving money.
PS. This experience is the main reason I think Gnome's 'simple/consistent' approach is the wrong one.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
But it is naive to expect people to willingly throw away their investment in Windows (time and money) simply to learn an OS that allows them to keep on doing the same things.
Why? anyone who's ever browsed the 'net on their cellphones already has (and no, Windows Mobile is different enough from vanilla Windows that they'll still need to be "retrained"). Simply put, it's not that big of a deal, it just requires the desire to do so.
If someone is happy using, say, Word and Photoshop, what's attractive in hearing that Linux can't run Word and Photoshop but they can do pretty much the same things with Openoffice and Gimp, once they take the time to learn how to use them? Why should they do that when they can keep on using Word and Photoshop?
Because, one imagines, they'd appreciate the $1000 saved by not buying either Office or Photoshop.
Why should I care if Linux allows me to do the same things once I learn how to use it and a bunch of new programs? Where's the incentive?
For your Mac, it's easy, and you'll know it when your motherboard decides to give up the ghost. For Windows, well, security first, performance second, and
it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:5, Interesting)
I've had two netbooks so far, and on both, the Linux installations sucked. One came with Xandros, the other with SuSE. Both were poorly installed, neither of them updated correctly over the network, and neither of them was properly adapted to the device (screen, keyboard, etc.). If I hadn't been able to install Ubuntu Netbook Remix, I would have returned the machines myself.
Re:it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:4, Interesting)
That's too bad. My only experience is with the Acer Aspire One, which comes with a Fedora 8 variant installed and has none of those problems.
Re:it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard this story a lot from seasoned users (being one myself, although I never got around to buying a preinstalled machine). Apparently the first Dell laptops with Ubuntu had the same kind of problems. Likewise a number of laptop sellers advertise as being Linux friendly but I often see small print along the lines of "this and that peripheral (most often the webcam) won't work if you pick Linux as the OS".
What is it with those people ? They pick their hardware, can't they at least pick some that's supported ? It's not as if it was difficult to find Linux supported components. It's even more irritating when you find out that users familiar with the system report that it was an easy fix.
I sometimes wonder if there isn't a clause in one of their OEM contracts stipulating that "if you supply another OS, it has to be crappy".
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, the first Ubuntu-loaded laptops worked (and still work) great - I bought and am typing this on an Inspiron E1505N - all the hardware worked out of the box, except for 3D video. (Intel still had a binary blob for the wireless, but was working on releasing an Open Source driver)
There was one glitch with updating the kernel, though...but that was the only hiccup in the whole process.
Re:it's the manufacturer's fault (Score:5, Insightful)
If I hadn't been able to install Ubuntu Netbook Remix, I would have returned the machines myself.
It would be interesting to dig deeper into the return numbers and find out if it was problems with Linux in general or the specific OS installed on the returned devices. I believe the Linux in general issues can be addressed, but the device specific OS issues will be more difficult.
As long as every netbook manufacturer is determined to roll their own flavor, then Linux will continue to be plagued with dilution by fragmentation in the marketplace. Instead of the Windows way and the Linux way, there's the Windows way and 20 different Linux ways.
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Such a system does exist: the iPod/iPhone and the i
An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder what it would cost someone like Microsoft to have MSI spike the competition.
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If you know anything about computers it's easy enough to just install a different distro. The returns are the clueless people who don't know about Linux and won't learn.
Re:An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA, and unlike the submitter, you'll see that the interviewers point out that MSI offer a poorly configured version of Linux. I wonder what it would cost someone like Microsoft to have MSI spike the competition.
I could have shared this observation months ago. It may have to do with the distro itself in this particular instance, but as a senior sales associate for a larger computer + electronics retailer, I can state for a fact that we get a substantially higher return rate of Linux-based Aspire One and EEE PC's compared to that of the Windows-based ones. The most common complaint when asked the reason for the return? "I can't install any of my programs on here. Office, Adobe, MSN, nothing works!" I try to take the time to assist them, showing them where they can find comparable programs and install them, such as GAIM/Pidgin and OpenOffice. Some are more than happy with that, others still want to return them. Lucky for them we have a pretty lax return policy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So basically, it's not a Microsoft conspiracy to distort the market as the GP suggested, more that applications that people want to run don't work on Linux? This is hardly news; for the average user, they want Office, Photoshop and Windows Live Messenger, not OpenOffice, GIMP and Pidgin (the last one of which can easily be viewed as some kind of cruel joke by someone spoilt by the niceties and features of the official MSN client...)
Re:An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Caveat emptor. Just because Windows programs will not install on the machine, that does not mean it is a valid reason to return the machine. If they are stupid enough to buy the machine on the cheap without doing their research properly then they should live with the consequences.
But your average user isn't going to do heavy research on these things, nor should they have to. You do it because you're a computer enthusiast. Heck you might do so on every item you purchase, but most people don't. They'll do heavy research on something they're passionate about and everything else they just want to work.
Aside from that, you can image that if Best Buy is more than willing to take back the machine that doesn't behave how you expected it, when Anonymous Coward's Electronics Emporium snaps
Re:An MSI problem, rather than a Linux one. (Score:5, Insightful)
It would cost much less than allowing MSI do it in the normal course of their business. I know conspiracies are more entertaining than blaming human laziness, but trying to blame poor Linux/MSI integration on Microsoft takes the biscuit. Consider:
Just put them on the top shelf. (Score:5, Funny)
Just put them on the top shelf, since the kind of people who obviously don't read the box and think installing Windows hard will be too lazy to reach them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been hearing about "The Year of Linux on the Desktop" for years. I think at this point many Linux distributions are ready for the desktop, at least for many common tasks. Perhaps one of the things we didn't take into account is that many home computer users are too lazy to learn something new.
For myself, I don't care whether most people use MS Windows or OS X or whatever. I just want Linux and/or *BSD to be there for me, which is why I contribute what I can monetarily to various projects, includin
Eee (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, I've bought three eee's, one for me, my brother, and my wife. I've installed ubuntu and configured everything before giving them to the others, and they haven't had a problem since. My wife, who won't use windows because she's not used to it (she grew up with macs), says she likes ubuntu - I suspect her story would be different if she had to spend hours looking up instructions how to install it.
Boot-CD/DVD images (Score:2)
Three hours of doing that may be fun to you, but as you point out - not for most. I wouldn't find it fun at all.. I do like tinkering with my computer, but I prefer tinkering with it from a known-good state, instead of a known-iffy state; that way if I get the thing in an unknown-fubar state, I can go back to known-good instead of back to known-iffy.
That's why I love the projects sprouting up that offer CD/DVD images of distributions that you just pop into the drive, give it a run, and if you like it - ins
Familiarity (Score:2)
Goes a long way. People ( for better or worse ) have been trained for over a decade to deal with windows. ( the mac crowd is smaller and doesn't count in this case )
Being able to go down to the local super store and buy the stuff you see on TV and have it work is also important.. First time you buy that new shiny game and find it wont work due to that funny OS, back it goes.
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If Microsoft had a consistent UI over the decade I'd agree with you. but With Vista the only offering right now I strongly disagree.
Vista makes it hard for even a seasoned 20 year experience IT vetrans with Microsoft products to even find where the hell to configure a wireless adapter. Vista is more foreign in every way than the most obtuse distro of linux could ever be.
There is not familiarity, Vista is as foreign as Cyrillic is to an american.
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I dont include vista in the mix. I know too many people that stuck with XP for the same reason. "its too different".
I'm not suprised (Score:2)
In addition, the hardware community is so blockheaded in that they'll support OSX (Unix) but not Linux.
Case in point - I setup my father-in-law's wife with a new Dell Linux (openSUSE 10.3/KDE) system a few months back. Her only needs are eBay, email (AOL) and documents. Due to the various lack of support - both from their internet provider and hardware - I"m goi
Amazing. Half assed installs cause returns (Score:5, Insightful)
MSI's install of linux is a piece of garbage. They barely made it run and it's junk. now they are bitching that their half assed work causes returns?
How come the ASUS eee flys off shelves where it's available and people that own them that are not techies love them in their linux install?
Oh wait, ASUS did not half ass the linux install. Ahhhh.
It must be linux's fault then.
The story headline needs to be changed... "MSI does crappy work again and bitches about it shifting blame to XXX."
Re:Amazing. Half assed installs cause returns (Score:4, Informative)
Have you ever run an apt-get dist-upgrade against the out-of-the-box ASUS repositories? They had some real blunders in those updates including tools stop working, icons disappearing, etc. I haven't bothered to patch for a while so hopefully they've got their not half-assed Linux install sorted out.
I'll probably install Ubuntu on mine when I stop using it for a kitchen computer / photo viewer.
Re:Amazing. Half assed installs cause returns (Score:5, Interesting)
I thought ASUS users just replaced their Linux with Windows in most cases. I have not seen MSI's Linux installation, but the ASUS version of Xandros on my daughter's Eee PC 4G is an unusable piece of crap. The most basic things don't work properly. A few of the snags I've run into:
Never seen such a mess before. If I were not an experienced Linux user myself, I'd have returned it. If MSI's is even worse than that, then wow... just wow.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Bingo.
I found an online review of MSI's U90 unit, and the review found that neither the Webcam nor the wireless worked out of the box. They opined that you'd need to go buy and install a copy of XP Home to turn the unit into something usable.
Seriously, is MSI a Microsoft front organization?
* * * * *
"Empty-handed I went to the widget library, empty-handed I renturned."
—Binkei, 9th-century Japanese programmer-monk
Hey, this is a huge success! (Score:2, Insightful)
All in all, it's amazing how few returns there are for linux - note how the representative says that the return rate is four times higher. Unless the machines are failing all over, and they aren't or we'd be hearing about it, the return rates are at worst a few per cent of all machines sold. More likely the actual rates are less than a per cent.
If even one per cent of Windows customers return the machine, that means that the Linux return rate is four per cent. In other words, 3 per cent of customers deci
Numbers? (Score:3, Informative)
Are you making up the 1% & 4% numbers?
The average rate of returns for consumer electronics in the USA is 15-20%.
Then assuming 20% return rates for Windows netbooks, it will translate
to 80% return rate for Linux netbooks.
Take care of your own product, (Score:5, Insightful)
rather than blaming the users who "don't want to spend time to learn it". Customers buy your product because they need it, but few would learn it the hard way without well-organized, easy-to-follow documentation. Invest in supporting and documenting your own product and users will be happier, not angrier.
Laptop returns are 1000x higher for Windows than L (Score:2, Insightful)
If we compare overall return rate we could notice that Windows computers are more often returned than Linux computers.
Reason might be that people do not know what they get with Windows laptop. They get under-power hardware with software which actually requires more power.
Fixing some manufacturing stupidities. (Score:5, Interesting)
Alright, couple things. Yes. It is true that the vast majority of the general public don't want to learn how a computer works.
But I see some fault by manufacturers too. Couple things.
Stop shipping laptops with relatively unknown "Lets evade the MS Tax" Linux distros with little support or documentation. This whole "Get a Linux computer so we can pirate Windows" thing has gotta stop.
From now on, contract with the BIG BOYS in Linux, Red Hat, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Suse. No more gOS. no more *insert Bizzare distro no one has ever heard of here* distro.
Make sure all your drivers for your cards work and can survive things like Kernel patches.
Stop shipping broken configurations. If my Screen can support 1200x800, it better not be set to 1024x768.
Stop Advertising Linux as "Almost Windows" or "Sort of Windows" - Advertise Linux as - Linux. Put a big Penguin sign up next to the row of Linux Laptops, and say "These are Linux Laptops." and if they are
Install Wine on Linux Laptops. Show customers that they can take their Windows applications with them where Applicable.
Re:Fixing some manufacturing stupidities. (Score:4, Interesting)
I bought my Eee PC with Xandros. It had a few extremely good applications, like the Asus 3G modem app, which is better than the one Huawei bundles with their 3G modems for Windows. Xandros works fine in general, too, but my big, huge gripe with it is that the default installation consumes more than 3/5ths of the SDD, and you cannot remedy this by removing apps (or games) which you don't need, because someone at Asus decided that Xandros has to be installed in UnionFS! Having less free space on the SSD, apart from the obvious disadvantage, also diminishes the places where dynamic wear levelling can spread out the writes.
Anyhow, my point is that Xandros COULD have been a very decent OS for the Eee PC, if only Asus had a fricken clue. Have a minimum installation with OpenOffice and Firefox, and let the user remove and install what they want. This goes to the heart of the OP, rather than the topic of the original submission.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Not surprised (Score:2)
Moreover, some of these consumers don't even realise that a PC can be shipped with something that is not windows.
This is why the Microsoft monoculture is bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in the '80s and early '90s, people coped perfectly well with competing computers and operating systems. Sure, an Amiga was a bit different from an Atari, which was a bit different from a PC, which was a bit different from a Mac, which was a bit different from an Archimedes... but so what? People coped, just like they cope with the way every washing machine or DVD player today has a different interface. When you started using computers, you became computer literate, just like everyone's more or less washing-machine-literate and DVD-player-literate. And once you're literate in a technology, you can learn to use any form of it relatively easily.
What the Windows monoculture has done is to destroy computer literacy among most users. Now, instead of learning to use a computer, people are trained to use Microsoft Windows. Instead of learning about launching applications and using word processors, they're trained to click on the big button at the bottom left of the screen that says "start", then to click where it says "Microsoft Word". And so as soon as that button turns into a picture of a foot at the top left of the screen, and the icon they're looking for says "Word Processor", they're left bewildered and uncomfortable.
Of course, this has now bitten Microsoft too: it's one reason why Vista and Office 2007 are so unpopular. (Semantics nazis: does that count as irony?)
Re:This is why the Microsoft monoculture is bad (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree with you fully. This has served as well to make an even dumber new set of Mac users who switch because it's easy and "just works." I've noticed this amongst other grads in the humanities. They use MSOffice on their Macs, don't know what to do when they lose their internet connection, and can never, ever, ever get their printer configured.
It's not a problem of Mac users being stupid. It is a problem of basic computer literacy. Computer literacy courses at University in the United States now consist of a several-months-long, very expensive howto for Microsoft Office and using Outlook to answer your e-mail.
When you change the look or feel of anything these days, people freak, or become frustrated and give up. The inability to reason and sort things out has been lost because of that Start button. Without it, how will you know where to start?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There is an obvious flaw in your assertion: The people who don't cope with linux today are the 95% of the population that did not own a computer at all in the 80ies and early 90ies.
Computers are not targetted at professionals and enthusiasts anymore.
Re:This is why the Microsoft monoculture is bad (Score:5, Funny)
just like everyone's more or less DVD-player-literate.
<blink>12:00</blink>
It's not the linux, is the bizarre distros (Score:5, Informative)
However, I bloody well couldn't, could I? The manufacturers had installed some of their own RPM packages before sending out the laptops, many of which had dependencies on other packages. I couldn't bloody update my system because these packages weren't on the central RPM repositories for fedora etc., and there were countless conflicts. Their proprietry RPMs required firefox, so I couldn't update firefox because that would require interfacing with these RPMs, which weren't there. I couldn't update ANY fucking packages, my distribution was useless, unless I forced removals and forced installs of new RPMs, but then all the conflicts had to be sorted out manually.
I've ended up putting Xubuntu on it with XFCE, but it's far less responsive because you loose the intelligent optimisation that Acer etc, put into it, and installing it requires making bootable keydrives etc., and loads of optimisations to the SSD, swap etc.
Why the hell the manufacturers don't just use Ubuntu (I've heard Dell have the sense too, at least), I do not know.
Stupid.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
rant about update problems removed.
Why the hell the manufacturers don't just use Ubuntu[...]
It seems you give the answer yourself already:
the intelligent optimisation that Acer etc, put into it
Laptop manufacturer optimises software to work better with their hardware. Then of course it's not compatible anymore with whatever distro it was based on originally. And you will have to start waiting for said laptop manufacturer to update their complete distro before you can update your system.
You can't have it all, unless you require the laptop manufacturer to submit all their changes to the original distribution - not sure
I don't blame people for the returns... (Score:5, Informative)
care factor (Score:3)
I got pissed off when I upgraded Fedora 7 to F9 because it took me a whole three days to get things working the way I wanted because of the nvidia drivers, sure I restored my home directory and everything else worked. I was in the middle of an on-line course and I just had to get on with it. I thought 'no wonder people don;t want to use linux'
But soon after I compared that to a laptop that I had to configure for a C# development project with VS2008 and SMS2005 and MSSQL. I am diligent with my XP installs because I don't want the thing to fuck up once I get it set-up. So I use Project Dakota to patch it, installed VS2008, SMS2005 thinking I would be ok. Of course when you have a shit fight on XP - it drags on. Certain versions of MSSQL doesn't install properly with SMS2005 and I can't use database diagrams. I'm hand deleting roughly 50 registry entries and suddenly remembering why I like Linux.
I don't like using windows because it restricts me, but most users won't encounter those restrictions. What they don't realise is in Windows you go A-B-C-D and the task is done, in Linux you go A-B-C-D or A-D and the task is done. When you use windows there is no more efficient way to complete a task, you have to do the same brain dead RSI operation every time. I resent being told I have to use Windows in a work project because my effectiveness is instantly reduced. I feel lobotomised.
Which is the same reason windows people don't want to learn a new OS. There neural patterns have be set to *windoze* and they don't understand how to make that leap. They don't want their effectiveness reduced because thinking is the hardest work.
The F9 and Ubuntu I have is at least as pretty as Vista and mouse gestures come in handy too. I don't know how much better windows is than linux because I don't want to feel like a retard when I am using it, be limited to one pissy workspace, not be able to use all 8Gb ram, or all the CPU cores. I hate licence keys and registry shit. I get so frustrated using windows I think that anyone who really wants to use it, should.
Because that is the user experience they deserve. I think people's experience with the hassles of windows is what they presume is going to happen when they move to Linux. They fear that they are going to go through a whole new set of those experiences.
And they will, for a little while, lets be realistic, but then they will realise they don't get viruses any more, system performance is consistent, and they are able to fully utilise the machines power.
Linux will never be like windows, and thank goodness for that. Usability in Linux is improving with every distributions and no longer needs to duplicate functionality in windows, it gets better and better and is starting to pull ahead. If this is what makes Linux continue to improve then I hope linux is never ready for the desktop. If MSI want to distribute a shit version of linux, then they deserve to pay M$ licencing fees. They should stop distributing it because people will think that Linux is as crap as windows is.
It's in the hands of the vendors (Score:3)
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But you can buy linux at BestBuy [bestbuy.com]. If we can see strong sales of linux netbooks, we might see other software on the shelf too.
I wonder what the return rate for Macs are compared to Windows PCs? Perhaps Apple's investment in customer service is to reduce return rates when folk turn on an unfamiliar operating system. Of course when you sell some of the more expensive consumer PCs it's a lot easier to offer that level of support. To offer it when you're com
Re:Of course! (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course the return rate is higher! Linux is NOT READY FOR THE DESKTOP! You can't buy off-the-shelf software for it at Best Buy and it's hard to use. People buy things based on the price tag without doing their research first. Most of the time, they can't even get their microwave oven to stop flashing 12:00. What makes you think they're going to want to read an extremely lengthy linux user manual?
Last time I checked, Apple hardware wasn't running Windows. Yet, they've managed to take a *nix/BSD-derived OS and make it VERY simple and intuitive to use.
If [insert netbook vendor here] Executive staff can't seem to find the value in hiring a COMPETENT *nix admin to create a decent functional disk image worthy of being a Microsoft replacement, or at least as easy to use as OS X for the end user, then I feel NO pity for them.
Bottom line is *nix IS ready for the desktop, and Apple has PROVEN that. Other distros have made a large enough impact to make it to Best Buy shelves as well. Make it intuitive enough, and you don't need a 300-page user manual to figure it out.
And ENOUGH with the flashing 12:00 analogy already! Cripes, even my 8-year old knows how to set the damn time on the microwave. Todays generation of 30 and 40-somethings grew UP with tech, and the younger generation can't live without it.
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Well by that standard Vista isn't ready for the Desktop. Do you know how much money people are making installing XP for people that have bought Vista?
I am hoping that Ubuntu will produce a really good version for netbooks. I am also waiting for Apple to enter the netbook market. OSX can scale down to netbook size.
Software not available at BestBuy? Who cares. The key to the netbook and frankly to Linux is online software purchasing. An iTunes like program like Apple has already done for the iPhone and Goog
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You also can't buy off the shelf software for the windows based netbooks as that software tends to come on optical storage media, which netbooks cannot read. I guess you could get a USB dvd drive, but how many people want to invest in that? With Linux you just install from your distro's repositories. Much easier. No extra hardware required.
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That is the best description of 'brand loyalty' I've seen so far. I will steal it right now.
Mod parent up! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, this neighbor is actually quite an intelligent and insightful person, but as I've witnessed before, give her a computer and she transforms into a complete moron. Yet she uses one daily! I suspect the great majority of users are like that; they learned once, long ago, how to do something on windows and now they are done learning. If they can't see the same icons and menus in the same places they simply give up, complaining bitterly that it's the computer's fault. They may be perfectly reasonable and intelligent people away from the computer, but while using one they are, for all intents and purposes, completely fucking stupid. It's frustrating.
So no, I'm not a bit surprised that lots of people return Linux netbooks. I see how they are.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's too bad there is so much stupid people in the world.
It's truth. There is too many stupid people on the world. If only they where perfect like us we wouldn't be all that problems.
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:2, Interesting)
But Windows XP is dead. Microsoft wants you using Vista, and Vista is one of the hardest OSes to learn after using XP. Microsoft will soon enough ban OEM installs of XP on netbooks, so this talk of XP vs. Linux is mostly useless.
People come to me all the time, asking for help with setting up their wi-fi or trying to figure out some other off-the-wall issue with Vista. And I tell them, hell if I know... I wish they'd switch to Ubuntu. It is no more difficult to learn than Vista.
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
It is probably "power users" who are returning these. Not people who just want their web browser to work and write letters with the word processor and little else.
Not geeks who would know what they want in terms of OSes.
People who know Windows, and MS Office well, but do not actually understand at an abstract level that can be re-applied to other OSes and apps. From people with a memorised sequence of muse clicks for hundreds of tasks, to people who write apps in VBA and Excel.
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
that is more true than many realize. in my humble opinion 90% of users are nothing more than monkeys clicking keys in order to get the desired result. The same applies to cars. all they truly know is that you put a funny smelling liquid into it, turn a key, and wiggle the steering wheel around while pressing buttons on the floor to make it go and stop. It isn't complicated to understand the thing is they don't want to know.
it is the difference between memorizing a method and understanding the concept. you can set me down in front of any computer and I can learn the ins and outs of it in hours, (longer with more command line options). After a while some people stop learning, and everything after that point is a struggle.
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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Or, it's the case of people having other, more interesting things to spend their time learning.
I used to be a computer geek, but now stuff like OS' bore the living shit out of me.
Yes. and the end result of this anti-intellectualism is an inability
to back up your own data or keep your computer safe from malware.
In some misguided rush to avoid being a "computer geek" you can't even
use the "appliance" beyond its most rudimentary features (even in Windows).
Nevermind "the difficulty of Linux", drones like you can't even be bothered
to fully utilize Windows. The go whining to the local Windows or Linux guru
to be bailed out or coddled.
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Or, it's the case of people having other, more interesting things to spend their time learning. I used to be a computer geek, but now stuff like OS' bore the living shit out of me. I have -zero- interest in dicking around with a computer any more than I have to. I have a lot more interesting things to do ,like running my business, fixing up my house, studying art, whatever. I wouldn't bother with Linux because to me, it's a complete and total waste of my time.
Hm, this is one of the reasons why I don't do
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The poster mentioned "fixing up [his] house" as an alternate activity with more value. How many "computer geeks" out there who fault people who don't know basic computer operations, don't know how to sweat copper pipe, or replace a light fixture and so don't have the skills to maintain their home?
Your leaking pipes and worn-out light switch don't affect or inconvenience anyone other than you. Fix them at your leisure or not at all; nobody else will bother you about it.
If your computer is p
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Funny)
Or, it's the case of people having other, more interesting things to spend their time learning. I used to be a computer geek, but now stuff like OS' bore the living shit out of me. I have -zero- interest in dicking around with a computer any more than I have to. I have a lot more interesting things to do ,like running my business, fixing up my house, studying art, whatever. I wouldn't bother with Linux because to me, it's a complete and total waste of my time.
Hi, Nice point. I am sending you a file called FUNNY_SEXY_PAYPAL_KEYLOGGER.exe, and you are so going to love it. It's like, well, I won't spoil the fun. Let me just say it: it will drive you nuts!
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
Then please refrain from using a computer.
You know the first thing I did when I first got a digital camera? I learned photography. Not just "how to turn the camera on", but aperture, shutter speeds, exposure, rules of composition, etc. Yeah, I "could" have let the camera handle most of that stuff, but I know that unless I know what's it doing on the background even on the Auto modes, I have no right to expect something other than shitty results.
I simply can't understand why people don't do the same with computers... I mean, do you go to a guitar store, buy a $600 guitar, and then return it the next day because you didn't sound like Jimi Hendrix? I seriously hope not.
Re:For return people computer... (Score:5, Insightful)
What are you talking about? (Score:3, Informative)
PCs sold as appliances, irrespective of the OS, will have Flash, Real Player, PDF reader , Java VM and any other necessary software.
The EeePC is just like that, as are several other Linux appliances in the market.
This scaremongering is frankly tiresome, bring on real issues to have a meaningful discussion, lack of basic software is no longer an issue in most situations.
Yeah sure. (Score:3, Insightful)
Like if Windows was that good.
Inertia is the word you need.
People prefer to continue in the current state of suffering rather than to try something new that may or may not be better.
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So they returned it because they expected Windows but got Linux and not because it was difficult to learn for them? I think not, read the interview.
Oh, they should blame the install, which was poor? Exactly how?
Oh, power users are the cause...the ones that probably have hacked copies of Windows waiting around to install over Linux (as you say, that's what they wanted...)
I think you are simply trying to divert the fact that Linux is not some kind of magical operating system that every user should embrace a
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Insightful)
Right now the ONLY logical reasons to move to a Linux based PC is 1) cost and 2) boot time when run in minimalist mode. Otherwise an XP machine is far better for the availability of apps and consistency of experience.
Oh, and software that gets faster with time (see KDE 4 vs. KDE 3). And better hardware support (dead serious). And a nicer desktop (got anything to compare to Compiz yet?). And a smaller footprint (I'm using less than half of the 1GB of RAM on the Eee PC I'm typing this on right now). And a software library that makes Windows look niche (I'll put apt-get against VersionTracker any day of the week). And a more consistent interface (see: those screenshots of 20 different widget toolkits on a single Windows screen).
Yeah, besides being a better, faster, cheaper, prettier system with better 3rd-party support, I don't see much point in using Linux over XP. Oh, and double that for Vista.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That's valid for the 1,000 people in America who actually need some obscure function, but no big deal for the rest of us who are completely supported by Open Office.
Re:they don't know what they get until they open t (Score:5, Informative)
The OS may be no more difficult to learn (for everyday use; if you're a power user, though, XP -> Vista is still easier than XP -> Ubuntu),
I call BS on that statement.
I am a power user and in high level tech/server support, and one thing about power users is this: Interface is irrelevant.XP -> Ubuntu is equally as easy as XP-> Vista, Vista -> MacOS and MacOS -> Ubuntu.
What you are forgetting is that XP -> Anything Linux you could have a choice of Gnome, KDE, XFCE or a tonne of more obscure ones like IceWM or Enlightenment.
I have tried all of these above, I give tech support on all of these (OS'es and Environments) and once you teach a user where to click to do what they want they become drones again and to open mail click here, to edit a document click there and so on and so on endlessly. Users tend to "forget" the actual environment that they are in and learn an almost "muscle memory" type of sequence of mouse-gestures and keyboard clicks to get done what they want.
I got my wife to use Ubuntu, and she uses it every-day. I could've gotten her to use anything else.
The real pain comes in the "under the skin" things like adding your computer to a network, setting up your wireless and other essentially one-time housekeeping tasks that need to be done (setting up wireless on a laptop is more than a one-time task, but migrating around wireless networks with notebooks is an equal pain regardless of OS)
Then we get to actually installing the software and getting it to work with the actual hardware.Now immediately both you and I can point to areas where Windows has greater driver support from vendors than Linux - but ask yourself this: How many users ever set up their own hardware? Being a tech manager with an IT team I get the very strong impression that regardless of OS a user will call on us to install a new screencard, PCI/USB wifi network card or whatever the case might be. Thus user-wise the hardware issue has largely been negated by user incompetence. Remember though that users need only worry about using the computer - IT geeks like those who's job it is to fix computers are supposed to worry about the actual hardware, and again for a power user/tech support it is less than an issue than you think.
but then you also have the added learning curve of replacing every single application except possibly Firefox, if they weren't using IE before.
Again I need to point to the error of your statement.
1) Have you looked at the awesome cockup that is the Office 2007 interface?
I have countless users who phone me regularly to ask "where is the file meny", "where do I name the file when I (eventually found how to) save as" and so on.
2) Have you tried bringing an Office 2007 setup into an existing officespace?
Try telling a user over the phone how to install the patch that allows him to open .docx documents in Office 2003 OR explain why the Office 2007 user suddenly needs to save his files in a different type every-time-he-saves-it, or why it says "compatibility mode" when he opens a .doc file. Or why he can no longer open his old e-mails since he started using Outlook 2007 and his .pst file is no longer supported. Older versions of .pst files are a pain to recover.
3) A personal tale from first-hand experience.
We use a custom in house program developed in MS Access. Me, being a Linux user cannot use this program since I cannot open the database in Linux. That goes for every Office 2007 user in our company. The database needs to be converted to an Office 2007 compatible format before they can use it - and when that is done the ones using office 2003 can no longer use it since now it is incompatible with their version of office. We will only be able to get Office 2003 licenses for a short time still before 2k3 goes the way of XP. Thus very soon we will be forced to up
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You give me my point? I wasn't trying to make a point at all, just stating the simple fact that the current (=stable) version of OpenOffice doesn't support .docx out of the box. I know very well that Office 2k3 doesn't support it either.
But if you insist on me trying to make a point, I can restate my personal experience that I haven't been able to get the official conversion tool up and running - though admittedly I haven't spent much time with it, and it's probably just a hickup in the (unofficial) Arch
Which gets to FOSS' main flaw (Score:3, Insightful)
It has little to do with the OS merely being 'different' than Mac or Windows, otherwise all these smartphones running everything from Symbian to custom Linux-based stacks would suffer the same returns problem (and for the most part, they don't).
Installing and updating software applications is a royal beeotch.
With a Windows setup (horrible warts and all), you just download and install your software packages as on a desktop PC.
But with Linux-based stuff, since you're not dealing with a well-defined platform,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So there must be some other reason for the higher rate of returns. In any case, as others mentioned, the higher rate is meaningless without absolute numbers. 40% return (vs. 10% for Windows) would be horrendous; 4% return (vs. 1% for Windows) w
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Since you are posting as AC, I'm guessing "a few people" is longhand for "I"
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I demand an analogy!