Mark Shuttleworth Tries To Lure OpenSUSE Devs 258
polar_bear` writes "A lot of developers are angry at Novell for its deal with Microsoft, but is it fair game for other vendors to try to capitalize on dissatisfaction with Novell? Apparently, Mark Shuttleworth thinks so. Shuttleworth sent an invitation to the openSUSE developers list inviting developers 'concerned about the long term consequences' of Novell's deal to participate in Ubuntu Open Week and consider jumping ship to Ubuntu. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu developers are not amused."
Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)
Folks at Ubuntu should borrow a leaf from Xandros and Freespire. These distributions actually work as advertised.
Interesting rebuttal you have there (Score:2)
"No"
"You're kidding, right?"
"Ubuntu is the most successful distro. Not by accident either."
Care to elaborate?
Re:Your Bad Call was... (Score:5, Informative)
Ubuntu is sort of close... but by refusing to have anything proprietary it will never "just work" because graphics drivers and such aren't free as in beer yet.
Ubuntu 7.04 will have proprietary drivers installed by default to make way for AIGLX and Compiz or Beryl. And they are free as in beer, but they're not free as in speech.
There's a pretty big controversy a-brewin' at the wiki [ubuntu.com] about the decision, but I think it's justified. Some compromises have to be made in order to survive a proprietary world, and it's still primarily free software. I don't want Ubuntu to be left behind as the last major OS without a compositing window manager after Vista launches. What really concerns me is how this'll go over after the Kororaa controversy.
Re:Your Bad Call was... (Score:3, Insightful)
O, Tempora! O, Mores!
Re:Your Bad Call was... (Score:2, Interesting)
And if that means that you have to compromise the licensing on someone else's code then that's a sacrifice that you are willing to make, right? Why not go the whole hog and just pirate Windows?
For reference: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.h
"Closed source Linux kernel modules are illegal."
"Closed source Linux kernel modules are unworkable."
"Closed source Linux kernel modules are unethical."
Re:Your Bad Call was... (Score:2)
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't have an open mailing list for OpenSUSE if you don't want to deal with sometimes unwanted comments.
Re:Open is not an invitation to be a jerk (Score:3, Insightful)
Either way, Mark Shuttleworth wasn't being malicious. He wasn't trying to offend anyone. Moral rights are subjective things, and clearly this didn't offend his own morals, so he wasn't abusing anyone's trust.
Nu-uh (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway, I don't see why this is 'un-Linuxy'. Competition helps OSS thrive, and if you can convince developers to work on your project, why wouldn't you?
Re:Nu-uh (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Nu-uh (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Nu-uh (Score:5, Interesting)
The Free Software Foundation has a whole bunch about the whole rewards mentality, but it really boils down to this: If a developer for OpenSuSE is obligated, then they cannot do their best work and will likely be far more counterproductive. This is because obligation to a "leader" (whatever the form of business, whether OSS or not) is feudal in nature and feudal systems emphasize pleasing the leader of the moment, rather than doing what needs to get done. The only way to do what needs to get done is to eliminate all feudal and monarchistic elements from the project.
(The Linux kernel is not an exception, because most of the modules that Linus ends up approving or disapproving have existed for some time and have an established track record. They were not developed to be pleasing to him, they were developed because it needed to get done. Those projects Linus turns down from the vanilla kernel often lead perfectly happy lives and are routinely patched in by assorted distros anyway.)
So the head of Ubuntu is trying to "poach" developers whose code SuSE will likely end up using anyway, as opposed to them being at SuSE and Ubuntu using the code if released. Big wah. It really doesn't impact SuSE, since they can still use the code developed. If it's not the code SuSE wanted done but nobody else thinks that SuSE's idea was worth coding for, then perhaps it was no big loss. If the idea was good, then the developers will develop it anyway. The only loser in this is whoever picks a scoring system that makes them lose.
Would I like it if people poached coders from my Open Source projects? Actually, yes. The SOBs rarely contribute anything as it is. I'd far prefer it if those who aren't interested left and those who were interested joined. It would make life much easier and progress much swifter.
Would I have always felt like that? Well, no, but the meds help a lot.
Re:Nu-uh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The GPL is a Virus (Score:5, Insightful)
Derivative works of copyrighted works are not allowed at all without permission of the copyright holder anyways... the fact that the copyright holder says that derivative works can be freely created without royalty as long as they are put under the same license is not denying anybody any rights they would have otherwise had. People who bitch about how viral the GPL is should take a long hard look at this fact.
Besides, since the GPL's strength comes from Copyright, and Copyright can't protect ideas, so there's nothing to stop you from learning something from a GPL'd work and then reimplementing the ideas yourself, free of any constraints of the GPL, as long as you don't actually copy any previously copyrighted content that was covered by the GPL (but that has more to do with copyright than the GPL).
Re:The GPL is a Virus (Score:2)
Well it's not quite a virus then, is it?
Re:The GPL is a Virus (Score:2)
Neither a virus.
Re:The GPL is a Virus (Score:2)
A better analogy would be that with GPL code, I let you fuck my wife, but if you have any offspring, you must let everyone who wants fuck them under the same condition. This analogy seems incredibly unreasonable, until you someone reminds you that you're not married to your code.
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, like when Linus posted about Linux on the Minix list?
Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Insightful)
Posting about Linux on the Minix list is more akin to posting about Kubuntu or Xubuntu on the Ubuntu lists, or about Ubuntu on the Debian lists , or about Mandrake on the Red Hat lists (when the projects were first started, that is). When derivatives start there's always going to be an announcement on the origional list or no one will know about the derivative.
Ubuntu, however, is not even remotely an offshoot of OpenSuse. Ubuntu also already has a thriving community and the OpenSuse developers already know about it. They know their options, there's no real need to advertise.
Re:Bad Call (Score:2)
Re:Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)
Because it has nothing to do with the development of OpenSuse. The developers list is like OpenSuse's office. You don't go into GM headquarters and hang flyers asking engineers to work for Toyota, that's just not cool.
If someone made project related to OpenSuse, or maybe a fork and said, "Hey, look what I'm starting, help me out if you want" cool. If someone says "Hey, look at these project that's existed for 3 years and has a thriving community, why don't you help us instead" that leaves a bitter taste. It's all about context.
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, what? Who made you the authority on what OSS is "about"?
Also you contradict yourself. You say "OSS is about choice". News flash: Jumping ship is about choice. Mark Shuttleworth is reminding the openSUSE devs of one of the choices available to them.
Also, OSS is very much about attracting developers. Projects without developers don't go anywhere. Projects that have developers do, almost without regard to technical merit (cf. PHP)
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Interesting)
So, let me get this straight. The openSUSE developers are smart enough to work on openSUSE, smart enough to be welcome to other distros, but too stupid to realize they can work on another distro if they want to?
Whatever OSS is about, Shuttleworth comes off as condescending. The openSUSE developers aren't idiots. If they're unhappy with Novell, they don't need to be reminded of their options.
Newsflash: Ubuntu is currently one of the most popular Linux distros around. They're not exactly hurting for developers. Certainly not enough to necessitate stealing developers from other distros.
With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs.
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Insightful)
Not stupid, just ignorant of other options. As long as he wasn't an asshole about it, I see it as fair.
It seems to me that many of the complaints here are due to fear. You are afraid people will actually take him up on the offer.
"With Ubuntu's questionable inclusion of non-GPL, "binary blob" and closed source drivers, maybe Shuttleworth should worry more about his own distro, and let the openSUSE developers worry about theirs."
What you don't realize is that this is the only way a linux distribution has a chance at competing with Windows. Shuttleworth is a (smart) businessman and knows this as well.
Re:Bad Call (Score:3, Insightful)
No, I realize that completely. Regardless, distributing binary drivers is in a grey area concerning GPL compliance. Which was my point originally. Shuttleworth/Ubuntu doesn't necessarily have the moral high ground when it comes to GPL adherence.
Re:Bad Call (Score:5, Interesting)
I read it as "Hi. If you are unhappy with Novell right now, I would like to extend an offer to join the Ubuntu project, as we are having developer sessions soon, which might be up your alley."
Re:Bad Call (Score:2)
The suse devs might not have realized that there was an upcoming event targeted at new developers to Ubuntu, though.
Re:Bad Call (Score:2)
That's nothing, ubuntu-desktop also requires Mono. Shuttleworth really ought to get his own glass house in order before throwing stones.
Re:Bad Call (Score:2)
--S
Re:Bad Call (Score:2)
Re:Bad Call (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bad Call (Score:2)
In order to be "Linuxy", you have to develop something, do a half-assed job, and then disappear completely (devfs, arts, xmms) leaving other devs to make sense of the mess you left behind. The Suse devs did nothing wrong, their management did. Suse is actually a pretty nice distro, but will likely disappear now due to Novel's carelessness. It's pretty depressing actually. It's kinda like how Novel made WP disappear.
BBH
Microsoft developer community? (Score:4, Funny)
No - it would do the opposite.. (Score:5, Insightful)
No? Didn't think so either.
Re:No - it would do the opposite.. (Score:2)
Semantic difference :-) (Score:2)
In that case it gets more complicated, because the whole library porting problem shows up. But no, obviously your code is your code..
Why (Re:Microsoft developer community?) (Score:2, Insightful)
As for Shuttleworth, its about bloody time he piped down from his grand standing and actually got his damn distribution working correctly out of the box rather than jumping on every Microsoft and competitior bashing bandwagon that goes past his doorway, and instead, actually correct the deficiencies in his distribution; like the lack of WPA configuration and setup - no wpa-gui sucks, its broken and doesn't work.
The day I can dump a ditribution on his oh-so-generic laptop (Toshiba A100) and everything works out of the box, without distorted sound, constant wireless network dropping - then Linux will have made a success on the desktop, until then, it'll be relegated to the server and the desktops of those with way too much time on their hands.
Yeah, I'll get marked down, and a jihad declared on my ass because I *dare* question the almighty penguin agenda, but for christ sake, part of being an adult is accepting praise as well as acknowledging deficiencies and correcting them as they arrise - something which the Linux/OpenSource community is no very good at.
Re:Why (Re:Microsoft developer community?) (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Who ever the coward who marked me down, show your face, or are you yet another Linux fanboy unwilling to accept a little criticism of your beloved OS; I have no love for Windows, Linux or what have you; I use what gets the job done, out of the box, with minimum work required; and if Windows does that, then so be it; stop the religious jihad, and start focusing on the problems.
2) Why isn't that WPA information on the ubuntu website? the ubuntu documentation is absolutely crap - would I help out to fix it up? yeap, but not if it requires me to jump through hundreds of hoops just to get something in there.
3) The ipw3945 driver has been available for quite some time; sure, you can distribute the firmware, but there is nothing stopping a distribution like Fedora from including it with their kernel binary; also, why don't they set things up so that when the firmware is installed, you don't need to edit 1/2 dozen files just to make sure that the regulatory daemon loads before the wpa_supplicant, but at the same time, ensuring that the wpa_supplicant is excuted before the eth1-up script is executed.
Its about making sure that your configuration is wise enough to take into account when new drivers are added, and how to handle those new drivers that have been added, so that the different parts are loaded in the correct order - if MacOS X, Windows and others can do the job, why can't Linux?
4) The problem with Linux, more correctly UNIX is that documentation maintainers make grand assumptions, assuming that everyone has atleast 2 years of UNIX under their belt and a keen interest in tinkering around with their system to get things working - the fact is, those who are like me, sure, we have the technical know how, but at the same time, we don't want to sit there for ages trying to get something working, we just want to follow some instructions, and voila, it works.
Re:Why (Re:Microsoft developer community?) (Score:2, Informative)
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WPAHow
Heavens, no. No documentation anywhere.
Re:Microsoft developer community? (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft developer community? (Score:2)
Most OSS projects and Distros are not written in VB.NET so the Microsoft devs will be of limited use.
GNOME is funded by *everybody* (Score:4, Interesting)
For better or for worse, GTK is a very attractive GUI toolkit for commercial developers to code with. Hence, Sun, Redhat, and (recently) Novell all write their apps in GTK and use Gnome for the desktop environment. In fact, until very recently Suse was a holdout to this rule, and was very KDE and Qt centric. I would wager that Gnome has seen much more code from Redhat (and Sun) than it has from Novell. And Gnome is still very much a free desktop environment.
As an aside, I would like to point out that despite great protest from KDE fans, it looks like Gnome is winning the desktop wars. Trolltech aside, Gnome and GTK have the most commercial support behind them, and that support is really translating into a huge amount of momentum for Gnome. I have long been a Gnome user, and I remember just a few years ago when the number of KDE users vastly outweighed the number of Gnome users, and now it seems just the opposite. Given this trend, and they heavy investment that Canonical has made in Gnome, it really doesn't make sense for them to switch desktop environments.
Desktop Wars. (Score:3, Funny)
Oh great! I just switched to KDE. That just figures.
P.S. I'm glad you said the number of KDE users outweighed the number of Gnome users, and not KDE users outweigh Gnome users. I'm a little sensitive about my excess poundage.
Re:GNOME is funded by *everybody* (Score:3, Insightful)
Gnome will be winning the desktop wars when Linux starts winning the desktop wars, and there are no signs that we're even making any progress in this area. As much as Linux is growing, the fact that companies are writing more apps in GTK isn't a sign of Gnome's superiority or even progress in this area as it's still mostly servers and specialty machines.
KDE or Gnome it doesn't matter. They maybe the leper with the most fingers, but they still can't wipe their ass. Whether companies choose to ship Gnome as the default desktop or not it makes no difference, because none of them are succeeding on the merits of being a general purpose desktop OS.
Re:GNOME is funded by *everybody* (Score:2)
I think it succeeds admirably at the task of being a general purpose desktop OS. Until I bought my Dad a Mac, he used to use it on one of my old PCs - and if my Dad can use it, well, I think it can't be all that hard to use!
Re:GNOME is funded by *everybody* (Score:2, Informative)
Yes, it's unfortunate that many of the more common distros are shipping Gnome as the default DE now. I think this is due to the perception that Gnome is "simpler" and thus more suitable for the "average" user. Even Kubuntu completely lobotomizes the default KDE install by removing the majority of entries from the K menu, replacing the control center with a dumbed down version, etc.
Despite the number of distros shipping with Gnome as the default DE, polls suggest [linuxquestions.org] that KDE is still the most used DE, for now anyways. I suspect we'll see Gnome absorb many users migrating from Windows, but I don't see many KDE users changing over to Gnome.
KDE: now with more FUD (Score:2)
That's total bullshit and pure FUD. I guess now that they've run out of technical arguments, the KDE zealots are changing their strategy and spreading FUD about licenses.
KDE is the obvious environment to use instead of GNOME.
KDE is a non-starter for commercial desktop environments because of the cost of Qt for commercial users: that's why Sun, IBM, Ubuntu, RedHat, Eclipse, and SuSE are all basing their major products on Gtk+, not Qt.
New distro (Score:5, Funny)
I'd call it STFU linux.
--
Sometimes people are as stupid as they look.
Re:New distro (Score:2, Funny)
Re:New distro (Score:5, Funny)
Re:New distro (Score:2, Funny)
+1 ~ missed joke completely.
STUFAD (Score:4, Funny)
one word for Novell: "consequences" (Score:3, Insightful)
What's the problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:2)
Re:What's the problem? (Score:2)
Trying to get in the last word, are you? If you weren't, why didn't you stop there?
I mostly agree. (Score:2)
To me, it does not matter what someone else did/does. It doesn't make it right if it was wrong to begin with.
But I don't see any problem in letting people who MAY be unhappy with the current situation know what your views on the subject are and that they may find employment with you if they believe that your views more closely match their's.
Hell, we've had this discussion before. What if Microsoft managed a hostile take-over of Red Hat? Would you expect the coders to just accept that or would you expect them to take their knowledge and skills and move to a different distribution?
And would anyone be upset then that Mark was offering employment to them? I would not.
When the company you work with signs deals that you are opposed to (for whatever reason), then there is nothing wrong with someone else offering you a job.
Re:What's the problem? (Score:3, Informative)
No big deal (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No big deal (Score:5, Informative)
And yet it happens enough to cause projects like Linux, KDE, GNOME, OpenBSD, Apache, and so on, to get off the ground. Get used to it.
I don't see the problem (Score:2)
That being said, I see no problem with this. With the likelihood of developers on the project scratching their heads and wondering what they should do, he extended an invitation. It's up to them whether to accept. It isn't surprised that some on both sides would disapprove and feel threatened.
I can see where some would think this is in bad taste, but letting them know they have a place to go if they want one is a good thing IMO.
More developers is good... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, as you will find out if you follow all those links in TFA+TFS, it appears *someone* at Ubuntu decided to ship binary drivers by default (!) in the next version of the OS. Now that is just wrong, for so many reasons. In any case, it doesn't show Ubuntu a pure-FOSS supporting distro. Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.
And while the Novell/Microsoft deal is little more than corporate FUD, the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.
Mark, leave openSuse alone and do something about the binary driver issue. Please.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, I am not a Ubuntu dev, so I may be wrong ,but from my short research:
I, for one, think they did the right thing. And the moment anyone produce a decent gfx card (say, can play A Tale in the desert and Savage 2), I will be moving to those gfx cards. Until then, I'm stuck with Nvidia or ATI.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Regardless, the community seems to be in favour [ubuntuforums.org], or at least in favour of giving users the choice at bootup.
The problem is twofold. Firstly, the Linux desktop is rather a niche product, and lacks the pressure that a more popular product would have. Secondly, it's probable that the NVidia drivers contain information which NVidia considers give it a competitive edge, and open source drivers may not be beneficial enough for NVidia to give up that edge.
Frankly, I see nothing wrong with Ubuntu giving users a choice at bootup (which is my guess is what will happen), and Ubuntu has never been a 100% FOSS distro anyway.
Mark Shuttleworth is filtering messages (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Mark Shuttleworth is filtering messages (Score:2, Insightful)
If you're trying to communicate with him directly, then the right method is email. If you're trying to make a personal public message then the right forum is your own blog (or something like slashdot.)
Re:Mark Shuttleworth is filtering messages (Score:2)
Re:Mark Shuttleworth is filtering messages (Score:3, Insightful)
Response (Score:5, Interesting)
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/20
Re:Response (Score:2)
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg0378 8.html [opensuse.org]
The size of Mark's reality distortion field gets scary if you just look at the /. thread.
Re:Response (Score:2)
That's because it's almost a word for word copy of MS's original mail.
Hold off? (Score:2)
Maybe join one of the independent projects that support all distros if you really disagree....?
-m
They forgot to link to... (Score:2, Informative)
FOSS is not to be fragile (Score:2)
Perhaps Novell made one, perhaps it did not; it depends on your perspective. But should that one action cause such wide-spread criticism, and calls to abandon the distro and the developers who worked behind it? Even while I have no comment on whether the Novell-MS deal was appropriate, I feel such a reaction is very sad. Is Open Source so fragile?? A fully commercial vendor meanwhile can make its mistakes, learn from it, correct it, move on.
For all the work the guys at Novell have put in (Gnome, Mono,
I have been a SUSE user for many years now, and _personally_ I find it the best. I have never really contributed to openSUSE, now I am thinking about how I can help the team in any small way I can.
Re:FOSS is not to be fragile (Score:2)
To be successful, one thing you need is the 'Freedom to make mistakes'.
Sure! But that only applies when there is action to correct those mistakes. Novell has yet to address the damage their mistake has done. They tried to put a positive spin on it. It isn't the same thing.Why (Score:2)
Corel/Microsoft & Novell/Microsoft - look deep (Score:5, Informative)
If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.
I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.
Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:
"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft" [forbes.com]
"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" [cnn.com] @ CNN 10/16/2000
"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal" [washingtonpost.com]
"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source [washingtonpost.com]
"Microsoft Litigation" [groklaw.net] List - Educate yourself
I ask you: Who do YOU trust?
Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?
For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:
"Gates on Vista, Linux and more" [com.com]
History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes.
blog quote made me lol (Score:5, Funny)
his emphasis
Ok, there's two, warring stereotypes here. First:
Did anyone else picture that being posted by Sir Fauntleroy Etherbottom III directly after his monocle flew right off into the crumpets?
"I dare say, this Shuttleworth fellow is the worst kind of bounder. This sort of thing is just not done!"
Second:
"Stuff like what Mark did"
Ok, Cletus, simmer down! Y'know cousin Mark ain't been right lately, not since his ol' smell hound done up and runned off.
Infighting within the linux communities... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Infighting within the linux communities... (Score:3, Insightful)
Relax (Score:2)
really, I mean people love to get worked up over the littlest things, how dare he suggest that I co-operate with someone else!!!!!
Seems to me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Each of us must decide if the Novell/Microsoft deal changed the way we fundamentally view Novell and Suse. That is even more true of anyone developing a platform that is a part of this deal.
Re:Seems to me... (Score:2)
What? That other projects welcome developers? Do you realy think that there were openSUSE developers that said to themselves: "Gee, I would like to leave as an openSUSE developer, but where should I go?" Do you realy think that there are deveopers who think that openSUSE is the only project in history that wold want their skills?
Mark the astronaut is simply jealous (Score:2, Insightful)
Remember when Mr. Shuttleworth was calling for developers to improve the looks of Ubuntu? Well this is the same call. Let's get them when they are pissed. They got evident skills.
Of course it's fair game (Score:3, Insightful)
Spamming the list with repeated messages would be wrong, as would making threats, lying, etc. I don't see how a single, polite invitation to switch groups would be wrong at almost any time, though.
Not a good / safe idea (Score:2)
Id say the entire crew is now taboo for life. Sux to be them.
Re:I wonder... (Score:4, Informative)
This is about Freedom, not money. (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft has to, somehow, put a cage around it. It can be a big cage. It can be a HUGE cage. But Microsoft needs to put a cage around it.
Microsoft is trying that with this "patent agreement". It (with Novell's support) splits FOSS into two groups: "Microsoft supported" and "lawyers may sue you".
That gives Microsoft another chance to move the people from the "lawyers may sue you" group into the "Microsoft supported" group. And once they're there, they're in the cage and Microsoft can alter the rules how ever they want, whenever they want.
Which is why I have a problem with Novell's "patent agreement" with Microsoft. Particularly with how Novell is marketing it in Europe where they are pushing the "patent protection" as an important "feature" of SuSE.
Re:Relax, people (Score:2)
Re:Michael clearly understands that $20m $368m (Score:2)
I don't know about Ubuntu, but I think you don't understand the motivations of Debian developers very well.
Re:Do it Mark (Score:2)
we shall see
the 6 month release schedule is going to be a pita for those who run a lot of systems.
the 3/5 year lts schedule looks nice but its unproven as yet.