Debian Questions Trademark Policy 82
An anonymous reader writes "The OSS/developer community at large is paying more attention to the trademark issue, especially since Linus Torvalds bid to trademark the name 'Linux' in Australia failed recently. Branden Robinson, Debian's project leader, says the current trademark policy needs updating to ensure it has the appropriate level of protection against legal challenges. Robinson said there are various questions that project members must address when deciding how to change the policy. These include whether Debian Linux should have a trademark at all, and whether the trademark can be used to penalize those who 'prey upon' the community."
Trademark (Score:2)
Re:Trademark (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Trademark (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Trademark (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Trademark (Score:1)
Re:Trademark (Score:1)
Re:Trademark (Score:1, Informative)
Here's a link to a story about it. [commondreams.org]
Note that Apple Computers operates under a similar deal with Apple Records, and ran into some trouble with them over starting up iTunes.
Re:Trademark (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Trademark (Score:3, Insightful)
remember lindows ?
i really believe that passing around trademarks for common words is wrong and that's exactly what's happening.
Re:Trademark (Score:1, Informative)
The case never made it to trial.
Re:Trademark (Score:1)
Re:Trademark (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously
Re:Trademark (Score:3, Informative)
With due respect, you clearly don't have the faintest clue what "generic" means.
Generic is when you use something that might be a trademark to refer to anything vaguely similar. For example, in Britain it's common
Re:Trademark (Score:3, Informative)
It's not necessarily cut and dried with Linux. It has become so widespread in so many flavors, distributions,
Re:Trademark (Score:1)
Xerox's legal department used to send (nicely worded, non-threatening) letters to authors who referred to "Xeroxing something" in their novels or short stories, requesting that they recognize that the wording be changed to copying with a Xerox(r) brand machine.
Re:Trademark (Score:1)
WHICH ONE?
Tell that to all the distributions that use "Linux" in their name. It's not "Red Hat Enterpris
Re:Trademark (Score:1)
Nobody "called it wrong" (Score:3, Interesting)
No, they didn't. The problem was that the person who filed the application was incompetant.
Besides the fact that the application referred to Wikipedia (which has been discussed to death,) the reference described "Linux" as a generic phrase for an operating system kernel - which is precisely your argument.
Now, you and I know what Linux referrs to, but the trademark examiners don't, and it shows from their response:
"The entry from the Wikipedia encyclopaedia indicates
Linux isn't a quality stamp (Score:1)
Not at all, but: IMHO Linus' reason(s) for pursuing trademark protection for the Linux name is flawed. Here's why:
If I understand correctly, the main reason was to establish Linux as a sort of 'quality stamp', saying "if it says Linux on the box, then you can expect Linux-like quality software inside". Read 'box' as 'website' or 'vendor' if you like. Note: I'm not saying anything about how bad or excellent quality tha
Has it happened yet? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Has it happened yet? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Has it happened yet? (Score:3, Interesting)
Really? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not in my jurisdiction. (and I am/was a paralegal)
Nor in any jurisdiction with civil law and a copyright law similar to what is dictated by the Geneva convention. In those countries, the ONLY things in public domain are those (a) that do not involve creative work and (b) those whose copyrights terms expired.
And to boot, the intent of the GPL is NOT "to allow pe
Re:Really? (Score:1)
What about stuff that is explicitly stated to be public domain by the author? I used to release odd bits of software with a license that said, "This software is truly public domain. You can run it, distribute it, hack it or anything else that your little heart desires." That's the exact text of the license that I made up and used.
Is that not a legally recognized a
Nope. (Score:2)
Re:Has it happened yet? (Score:3, Interesting)
There is absolutely NOTHING in case law to support the fact that if you loosen your restric
Re:Has it happened yet? (Score:3, Interesting)
Copyright says that you need the permission of the copyright holder in order to make and distribute copies.
The authors of GPL'd code have essentially said "I own the copyright to this code. I own the exclusive right to this code. HOWEVER, I will allow you to do a, b, c, d and e as long as you abide b
Re:Has it happened yet? (Score:3, Interesting)
This was one of SCO's arguments. Which dosn't actually appear to have any standing in either statute or case law anywhere on the planet. If a court were to rule a distribution licence "invalid" then the standard provisions of copyright apply. Thus it would be pointless for any party to even bring a suit to attempt to do this, they'd have nothing to gain.
Really, it could go either way. Since the intent of the GPL is to all
Re:Has it happened yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
So enforcable no-one's dared challenge it. There have been plenty of companies with the motivation to go up against it if they thought they stood a reasonable chance of winning, and none of them have tried.
and IS "linux" a trademark
In some countries, yes, definitely, Linus only got the trademark after a legal battle when someone else trademarked it. However, in Australia it isn't. It just depends on local laws.
Why shouldn't they trademark their works? (Score:2)
Re:Why shouldn't they trademark their works? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why shouldn't they trademark their works? (Score:2)
See Also... (Score:5, Informative)
some debian-legal [debian.org] discussion
Re:See Also... (Score:2)
/Mikael
Re:See Also... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:See Also... (Score:3, Insightful)
Illustrator has the facility to draw spirals based on a set of mathematical criteria. The default spiral settings plus the default brush used also makes the exact same debian logo. There wasn't much creativity put into making that specific debian spiral.
A free operating system logo made on a non-fre
Re:See Also... (Score:4, Funny)
Can we petition Illustrator to have this removed. Even if we don't have the legal trademark over it I'm sure the bad publicity for Adobe infringing on IP of Free/Open Source Software would persuade them.
Whats that site again that lets you run petitions?
Re:See Also... (Score:1)
(a) Debian held a European trademark before Elektrostore started using that logo, and
(b) A judge could be convinced that the usage is confusing
In this case I doubt that there's any real chance that people could be confused into thinking that Elektrostore are somehow endorsed by or associated with Debian, so it probably wouldn't be a problem for them.
Responsibility (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Responsibility (Score:2)
Yeah, and other people should hold their copyrights for them too.
If anyone has your trademark it should be you. Anything else is asking for trouble.
Re:Responsibility (Score:1)
Holding trademarks tends to require you to be a legal entity. Your choices are pretty much:
Who preys upon the Debian community... (Score:1)
Doesn't the need for opposing standards like patents and trademarks become larger as the community grows in size, or do we accept that very large corporations have a natural, excusable reason to protect their name and value through legal bondage? I think it's bull.
Should it have a TM? Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
In the meantime, signal your intentions by updating every internal and external document you can find to read Debian(TM). Same goes for Ubuntu.
Remember: a trademark protects the name, not the content. Trademarking the name of a distro does not attempt to take away or add anything to the copyright or software licences of any component. It just prevents evil corporate bastard or pakistani virus spreader from calling his CD of spyware, viruses and trojans "Debian".
Is there any trademark attorney out there who would help these people pro bono or at reduced rate? If there is an appeal, I would certainly contribute to the filing costs.
Re:Should it have a TM? Yes. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Too Late... (Score:2, Informative)
I guess at one point they managed to get Trusted Debian to change their name, but then Bruce Perens immediately backpedaled with his "fair to all businesses" policy.
You've got the order very wrong there. The Trusted Debian thing happened in 2003, whereas Bruce's policy was announced in 1998.
When Bruce started his little group of people to support Debian, all hell broke loose. A third of the developers went with Bruce to carry on the tradition of separating busi
Re:Too Late... (Score:2)
Re:Too Late... (Score:1)
Yeah I'm talking about UserLinux. Admittedly, it's been a year since I'd looked at them. But, you have to admit, there was something to it at one time. Lots of Debian people were pissed that anyone would dare to build a distro on top of Debian without hiring them outright. UserLinux was ridiculed from the very beginning, because Bruce talked about "marketing" and "support" rather than "developing" and "collecting fees". The project was designed to extend Debian, rather than replace it
Re:Too Late... (Score:2)
If Debian thinks they can take the route that Mozilla has, in trying to prevent others from releasing improved/modified versions of their software as "Debian", then they must be joking.
Where did you get that idea from? The article doesn't say that.
For Brandon, especially, to be pushing for this is completely ridiculous, since his employer does exactly what he's talking about preventing, by releasing Progeny Debian
Your statement only makes sense if your unsupported assumption is accurate. If Brando
Re:Too Late... (Score:1)
It seems to be all the rage nowadays. And, yeah, the article was quite vague. Admittedly, I'm a little touchy about it. It was a rant, what can I say?
why the random attack?
Warning shot
Re:Too Late... (Score:2)
All that aside, I believe what they settled on that they needed to do was make sure a
Robinson's full post (Score:5, Informative)
His main point seems to be that trademarks can lead to forking, whether it be forced by the trademark holder or voluntary, and that these trademark forks can lead to confusion (Why are these forked version unofficial? Is it really the same product? Which is the 'best' version?), inefficiency (harder to share code between forks) and fragmentation of the open-source community. Moreover, the implicit threat of trademarks - play by our rules or lose the name - seems at odds with the ethos of freedom to make changes that at the core of the free software movement.
He ends with three main questions that Debian will have to resolve:
* Why even have a trademark? What protections does it give that are useful for Debian? How do these protections different internationally, within dozens of different national jurisdictions?
* What is the approval process for using the Debian trademark? Should some groups get automatic approval, or should Debian leverage its trademark to compel vendors to contact Debian?
* Can we apply the Copyleft principle to trademark? That is, how can we turn trademark on its head and make it a tool to promote the open and free use of Debian and other projects instead of a device to restrict the rights of others?
Re:Robinson's full post (Score:1)
"Introducing Debian Windows..." "SCO has announced 'Debian SCO' for x86 systems..." "Red Hat Enterprise Debian" "Bob's Distribution of Debian That Comes With Free Kiddie Porn and Marijuana" Extreme examples, but you get the point.
They don't have an option... (Score:5, Insightful)
Trademarks aren't trademarks simply because they've been successfully registered. They're trademarks anyway, but registration affords some ADDITIONAL protections, beyond what a non-registered trademark gets.
Any mark that's used in commerce is automatically given trademark rights and protections under common law in almost every western nation, including the US and Australia.
The real issue in this case is that trademark protections are weakened when they are not protected by the owner of the mark. So if Debian lets anyone use "DEBIAN" for commercial purposes whenever they like, it will be hard for them to then go and protect that mark in the future.
Hell, depending on the examiner, it may already be unregisterable due to lack of protection.
Re:They don't have an option... (Score:2)
Regarding the notion that Debian might not want to "have a trademark at all," they really don't have any choice, strictly speaking.
Of course Debian has a choice. Our mark is in fact registered with the USPTO [uspto.gov], but we could always deliberately choose not to exercise our privileges under registration or common-law trademark. I.e., we can pretend there's no such thing as trademark law for us and let the chips fall where they may. We may reach a consensus that that's not a wise option, but it remains one
It's never going to happen (Linux Trademark) (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason you can't trademark Linux is because well, there's Redhat Linux (That's GNU-Linux + lots of other stuff), and Linux programming 2nd edition (and it's not about kernel programming) and a quick google for linux turns up
Linux
www.microsoft.com/getthefacts Read in-depth 3rd party performance analysis of Linux & Windows.
as second on the list!!, and that's not about the Linux kernel either.
Leader, leader, where are you? (Score:1)
For example, the new DCC Alliance seems to have gone right a
Re:Leader, leader, where are you? (Score:2)
To answer the question in your subject, I'm right here. Where've you been? :)
This doesn't bode well for the future of Debian.
To be fair, the imminent death of Debian was predicted steadily for years before I became Project Leader, was again immediately upon my election, has been again today (by you), and, I'm confident, will continue to be well after I'm gone. I hope you'll forgive me if I therefore cannot find the substance in remarks like the above.
Leaving aside squalid arguments about whether a
Re:Leader, leader, where are you? (Score:1)
Sorry for any typos and missing link tags in the above. I'm in a bit of a rush as there's a flight [deadbeast.net] I've got to catch in about 45 minutes, and I need to wander back over to the gate area. (Useful WiFi coverage in U.S. airports appears to be a task for future generations).
Re:Leader, leader, where are you? (Score:1)
OK, I apologize for being rude which undoubtedly I was. I guess it comes from a sense of frustration that so many folks just shrug when the word Debian is mentioned, anticipating a lot of jaw-jaw and not much else. That, and a lack of tools for the job. For example, it's fairly easy to show people the fruits of desktop Linux - pop in just one Ubuntu (or Mepis or whatever) CD and leave an hour later with a machine humming away nicely and in the case o
Re:Leader, leader, where are you? (Score:2)
Many thanks for taking the time to clarify some points.
No problem at all. The article has now fallen off the front page, so I'm not sure how many people are still reading this, but you deserve a response.
It's fairly easy to show people the fruits of desktop Linux - pop in just one Ubuntu (or Mepis or whatever) CD and leave an hour later with a machine humming away nicely and in the case of Ubuntu very good online user forums to help with the many questions. The user doesn't know it's all based on Debi
TradeMark (Score:1)
Does Linux need Trademark? Yes.
Simply put the LINUS had no choice but to fight to get the trademark from some nefarious little fscker trying to extort money from OSS projects.Linky http://www.linuxmark.org/faq.html#Are_you_doing_th is_because_you_want [linuxmark.org]
Debian neeeds not worry until the same happens with the same result. The problem in deciding to TM is that you have to therafter actively defend your trademark ( Like the LMI does now )or you lose it.(Carries with it some ba
Re:TradeMark (Score:1)
Yes, of course it should (Score:2)
On the other hand, Debian refers to a specific Linux that originates from the Debian group. There isn't Ubuntu Debian, Microsoft Debian, or Mom's Ole Fashioned Debian. It passes the test which the Linux AU trademark app failed.