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Sun Microsystems Software Linux

Torvalds on Opening Solaris 431

Posted by michael from the writing-on-the-wall dept.
An anonymous reader sent in a link to this interview with Linus Torvalds, where the questions center on Sun's movement toward the open source world (and Linus' dismissive view of the threat posed by Solaris), as well as a few questions about 2.7 and the future of Linux.
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Torvalds on Opening Solaris More

Torvalds on Opening Solaris

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  • How does he stay grounded? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by October_30th ( 531777 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @01:51PM (#11150228) Homepage Journal
    And while that still doesn't make me humble, it hopefully keeps me at least a bit more grounded.

    That's just the perfect reply. If you've accomplished something great, don't be humble - that's fake - but state the facts and stay grounded.

    What I don't understand is how this guy keeps himself grounded...

  • "Solaris/x86 is a joke" (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lrwx ( 800141 ) *
    I wouldn't be suprised if Sun came out with a responce to this article. I mean Linus essentially just called thier operating system a joke. I wonder what kind of responce Sun will have to that.

    • Did you read the article, or just the call-out? He said that Solaris/x86 is a joke because of the lack of drivers. And he's absolutely right.

      • Re:"Solaris/x86 is a joke" (Score:4, Insightful)

        by 0racle ( 667029 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:52PM (#11151018)
        Never had a problem with drivers for Solaris/x86. Here's a hint, and you have to use this with *BSD and Linux too, check that your device is supported BEFORE you buy it.

        Did Linus say what cereal he eats in the morning, because I'm begining to have an independant thought so I need someone to tell me what to do. What do I care about what Linus things about Solaris, of what benifit is it?

    • I wonder what kind of responce Sun will have to that.

      It will be a punchline, of course!

    • Re:"Solaris/x86 is a joke" (Score:5, Interesting)

      by White Roses ( 211207 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:13PM (#11150525)
      Back in the halcyon days when Sun was bar none the biggest UNIX enterprise player, Sun probably said the same thing about some little upstart OS cobbled together by that one guy from Finland that only ran on 386 machines and was described by it's creator as a "just a hobby" [wikipedia.org]. So really, I think this can probably be filed under "turnabout is fair play."

    • Re:"Solaris/x86 is a joke" (Score:5, Interesting)

      by arivanov ( 12034 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:45PM (#11150913) Homepage
      It is a joke. It was a joke. I shall be a joke.

      I have been forced to run the damn thing and it has always sucked rotten eggz.

      1. Multicast broken on 60+ percent of the network drivers. Linux over the years has had a chance to accumulate workarounds for broken cards. Solaris has never had the mileage to do so and as a result even trivial cards like ne2k, rtl and even eepro100 and 1000 are broken. In some cases it simply does not work. In other your entire machine goes south the moment someone tries to use it.

      2. DMA is broken and does not work or has corruption problems on many chipsets. As a result if you want to get anywhere you need to shell out money for SCSI.

      3. Numerous small niggles all over the place. Video, IO devices, power management (or to be more exact lack of), ad naseum.

      It may be better the moment they release 10, because sun has used the cheasiest and shittiest PC chipsets like ALI15xx in their servers so they have "appropriate experience" now. But it will still be a very mixed journey. I will recommend it only to someone who has a PC which has the same collection of hardware garbage as in a modern Sun: broadcom ethernet, ALI or Silicon Image IDE or an NCR/LSI SCSI. If you have classic "good" PC hardware like Serverworks + Intel you will be going up shit creek without a paddle all the way (possibly under water as well).

  • Linux liberated (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SIGALRM ( 784769 ) * on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @01:51PM (#11150234) Journal
    People seldom say "I need Linux to do Y, because Unix did Y," and in fact, that's an argument I fundamentally don't believe in. Rather, the problems that people have are more along the lines of "I need to do X, and I can't find a way to do it" to "I can do it this way, but it sucks because of Y." And that is where the inspiration really comes from
    This viewpoint is a major factor behind Linux's success, in my opinion. Despite what some believe, today's Linux is not "just a UNIX clone."

    In my past life I was an SCO engineer (yeah hate me for it, but it was waaaay back)... and the more Linux evolved--disassociated from UNIX--the more I loved it. Posix/SUS was meant to be a basis for a manufacturer-neutral standard system interface. Linux kernel/gblic internals have been extraordinarily creative in working toward that rationale.

  • Oblig. (Score:3, Funny)

    by JamesD_UK ( 721413 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @01:52PM (#11150244) Homepage
    Does anyone have a digitally signed copy of this article? How else can I trust this Tovald's guy with my computer?
    • In corporate IT, only guys selling inferior software raise the issue of secure distribution of competing products.

  • a bit too dismmisive? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bsharitt ( 580506 ) * <bridget@NoSpAM.sharitt.com> on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @01:52PM (#11150250) Journal
    I think Linus is being a bit too dismissive towards Solaris. Sure it's not going to completely crush Linux like McNealy wants to believe, but if it ends up being good enough it could slow down the growth of Linux and become a major competitor on x86.

    • Re:a bit too dismmisive? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:00PM (#11150342) Journal
      > I think Linus is being a bit too dismissive towards Solaris. Sure it's not going to completely
      > crush Linux like McNealy wants to believe, but if it ends up being good enough it could slow down the
      > growth of Linux and become a major competitor on x86.

      I think Solaris has got an uphill battle in this one, but my attitude is the more the merrier. FreeBSD, Linux and an open Solaris, all competing against each other, bettering one another can only do the end-user good.

      I'm not surprised that Linus is dismissive, but he should know better than anyone the peculiar way that underdogs and unknowns can burst on to the scene.

      At some point I may take a look at Solaris, purely out of curiousity. That's how I started with Linux.
      • One thing that Solaris has for it that the BSDs don't is that is a well established name from and established vendor.
      • > all competing against each other

        And sharing code! The fact that the kernel-included device driver code is open should make it fairly easy for Solaris x86 to get back up to speed, if the desire is there.
      • I think Solaris has got an uphill battle in this one...

        I'd bet Solaris 10 is going to be huge in consulting and government work. It's cheap to license and will be open source, yet it still gives the bureaucrats/customers the satisfaction of commercially branded products.

        Sun is putting themselves in a unique position between Microsoft and Linux--one that is appealing to both geeks and management. Pure genious or folly God knows, but I'm looking forward to 2005.

    • How does slowing growth come out of competition?
    • For one thing, Linus is right about Solaris/x86 being a joke. I've been trying to run it (admittedly, halfheartedly) on my home boxes since Solaris 7 came out, and it's never recognized any of my hardware.

      For another, what does Solaris have that Linux doesn't? Large scale SMP? That monstrously large ZFS filesystem? dtrace? Okay, so that stuff gets ported. Other than that, why Solaris?

    • Re:a bit too dismmisive? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ValourX ( 677178 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:25PM (#11150671) Homepage
      The "opening" of Solaris holds no promise of wider hardware support. As it stands right now, Solaris Express (the 10 pre-release) works on such a small segment of the x86 and AMD64 PC market that it's hardly worth considering for a desktop OS. As a server? Well, if you're considering a server, you're considering Sun hardware, so you'll be okay. But outside of what Sun sells, you won't find much Solaris adoption, open source or not.

      Linus' statement about hardware support hits harder than people are giving it credit for. What use is an OS if it doesn't run (or completely run) on your computer? Shortly you'll see Mandrake and Novell say the same thing RE: Solaris 10 (actually, they've already said it, but the article hasn't published yet).

      -Jem

  • Sun could learn a thing or two IMHO (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gtrubetskoy ( 734033 ) * on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:02PM (#11150365)

    I have recently attended a talk [gmu.edu] at our local NOVA (Northern Virginia) LUG by Harry Foxwell focused on Solaris 10. And while Harry is a respected scientist and a great presenter, I couldn't help noticing some things that were not exactly in the Open Source spirit if you will. The talk was 90% about Solaris Containers (aka Zones or N1 Grid Containers), and being a believer of giving credit where credit is due, I was somewhat disheartened not to hear ony mention of FreeBSD jails [freebsd.org] and several statements about how Solaris Zones are primarily based not on any OSS work, but rather prior Sun work on Trusted Solaris. While I believe the Trusted Solaris stuff was partly true (in Linux this is called capabilities, BTW (POSIX 1003.1e/1003.2c)), it wouldn't hurt to briefly mention the origins of the concept of separation, FreeBSD jails, and the fact the Linux Vserver [linux-vserver.org] provides the same functionality for Linux (Linux Vserver was mentioned, followed by some condescending analogy of Linux and transformer robots and how Linux developers can "transform" Linux into supporting anything.) The truth of the matter is that FreeBSD jails appeared in 1999, Linux Vserver in September of 2001 and Solaris Zones in 2002. The talk could also use less of "Solaris is for real, Linux is not" comments, especially considering this is a talk at a Linux User Group.

    The bottom line is - I salute Sun open sourcing Solaris, but they still need to work on improving the attitude towards other open source OS's, particularly Linux and FreeBSD. The strategy of insisting that Solaris is just better, isn't going to get Sun very far, simply because it isn't true in many respects.

    • Re:Sun could learn a thing or two IMHO (Score:5, Insightful)

      by elmegil ( 12001 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:42PM (#11150870) Homepage Journal
      Perhaps it would be more likely for Sun engineers to give respect when respect was routinely paid back to them. For example: GNU would not be where it is today if it hadn't been built on Unix, and particularly Solaris/SunOS for a long time before The Linux kernel was a sparkle in Linus' eye.

      You don't generally get respect from people who you routinely disrespect, and Sun gets very little but "you're an irrelevant old dinosaur" from anyone prominent in the OSS world. This interview with Linus is a case in point; at least he's not openly hostile, but he's clearly dismissive.

      I'm rather amused to see Sun be the first to implement a replacement for the old init and have it done. I can't say I know who thought it up first, but Solaris 10 SMF is the first working implementation I'm aware of that's going to get any kind of wide deployment. I saw some linux-head saying this needed to be done a year or more ago, but I can't even find their website in google now. And obviously if Solaris has it now, the implementation started a while back (probably more than a year)...

  • How Linus Thinks... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by KJACK98 ( 623902 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:04PM (#11150391)
    I would recommend other Slashdot members to read this article, probably one of the best interviews I've had the pleasure of reading about Linus. The comments he made would benefit any open source project leader and stress once again that a successful open source project is one where "People need to feel involved...If anybody feels like somebody is just a passenger, that's bad for everybody." Other comments about incremental improvements and Not Invented Here (NIH) Syndrome are worth reading too. Don't let the title about Solaris confuse you, and its nice to know Linus didn't resort to mud slinging, which is very common from the Sun camp...

  • Solaris is no threat (Score:5, Informative)

    by nodehopper ( 839304 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:04PM (#11150396) Homepage
    We received a Sun Blade 2500 running Solaris 9 with an NMR that our company bought. I thought it would be cool to learn some Solaris. I was very disappointed. The software seems to make no sense, the provided applications are old ( it comes with Netscape 4.7x as the only provided browser). I was surprised to have been so under whelmed. Sun seems to be SO conservative in regards to their software that they seem to be paralyzed. I fired up Netscape 4.7x to find some answers on questions I had about the OS and when I hit a site that used JAVA the browser told me that the version of Netscape I was running didn't support the version of JAVA the Webpage was using!! This is what came with a standard install of Solaris? I am much more comfortable with Linux and so understand I am a bit biased, but I just don't see SUN and Solaris being a threat to Linux unless they really put out a better product bundled with more current software.
    • expect that to come with the next version of Solaris, either bundled or to be added on seperatley.

    • Huh!?

      This gets a +5??? WTF, over!.

      This statement reminds me of that stupid TV show with Jessica Simpson and her duffus husband. She rents him a Lamborghini for his birthday. His dreamcar.. and when he takes it for a drive, he doesn't know how to drive the standard and its too low to sit in and scrapes the bottom going over curbs!! He hates it.

      Geez! Solaris is a server operating system. If you really want to appreciate its strengths use it for a year. Also use package tools such as pkg-get from htt [blastwave.org]

    • Re:Solaris is no threat (Score:2, Informative)

      by ch-chuck ( 9622 )
      look for sun_netscape (netscape 7) in /usr/dt/bin/
    • Yes folks, this is our next generation... Scared yet?

  • Linus certainly doesn't seem up to date (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ikewillis ( 586793 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:06PM (#11150418) Homepage

    It seems to me that they have taken some action besides just grandstanding. They have resurrected the x86 version and added several interesting features--containers, DTrace, and ZFS, for example--that are available today in beta versions of Solaris 10. They're actively rounding up support from developers and software companies. And they announced that the production version of Solaris 10 on x86 will be available for free. What do you think about the x86 move and the new Solaris features?

    Solaris/x86 is a joke, last I heard. (It has) very little support for any kind of strange hardware. If you thought Linux had issues with driver availability for some things, let's see you try Solaris/x86.

    This attitude is perfectly fine for any Solaris release prior to 10. However, Sun has made massive strides both in performance and hardware support, especially on the AMD64 platform.

    Furthermore, he completely dodged the questions about containers, DTrace, and ZFS. While these are all fancy names for things which are also available in Linux, the truth of the matter is the Linux counterparts cannot hold a candle to any of these features in Solaris. Here's a quick run down:

    Containers: Solaris's new virtualization mechanism. Containers have a special kernel image which is able to communicate with the main system kernel entirely in kernel space. This is somewhat similar to the approach taken by the Xen virtual machine, except that Xen does it at a much lower level. Solaris containers may be thought of as somewhere between a Linux kernel instance running in Xen on top of another Linux kernel and BSD jails. It certainly is nothing like UML, where the UML kernel is running in process context and thus performs rather pathetically.

    ZFS: This integrates all the features of a high end filesystem and high end volume manager into a single package. Unfortunately, this will only be available a few months after Solaris 10 General Availability, but once it hits expect tools like VxFS and the Veritas Volume Manager to be rendered thoroughly obsolete on the Solaris side. Linux certainly has many interesting filesystems with cool whiz-bang features, many of which aren't implemented in ZFS, but on the flip side ZFS has many features tuned towards the enterprise market which are seen in very few Linux filesystems, most notably XFS.

    DTrace: While a bit obtuse for the time being, a simple demonstration of its power must be seen [filibeto.org]. The main advantage DTrace has over Linux alternatives such as KProbes [ibm.com], besides being massively more powerful, is that there is no performance impact on the system when they are not in use. DTrace probes are inserted into the kernel when needed and removed when not, whereas KProbes require they statically be built into the kernel.

    Conclusion: There is a considerable amount of feature parity between Linux and Solaris 10, but the Solaris features all have an edge over the Linux ones. Linus should not let his hubris cloud his judgement... I expect Solaris 10 to be a major competator to Linux in the low end SMP server market.

    Right now running Linux (or FreeBSD) on AMD64 has you flying by the seat of your pants a bit... it's certainly not polished and there are a number of caveats and gotchas to watch out for. Contrarily Solaris 10/AMD64, especially on Sun's own hardware, runs like a dream. I expect Solaris 10 to thoroughly decimate Linux in the Opteron server market.

    There are still a number of areas where Linux is still playing catch up to Solaris as well, most notably in the realm of schedulers. While Linux 2.6 now sports a constant time scheduler like Solaris has had for a half decade, Solaris still supports modular schedulers which can be swapped in and out, can be active simultaneously, and processes can be moved between them. One of the most notable ones fo

    • I just wanted to point out that you are talking about Sun's own hardware. Call me when Sun Solaris 10 will run without glich on poor's man Pentium IV or AMD Athlon XP server.

      So far it is just raving from Sun - ohh, yeah, we have very shiny hardware, and ohh, our OS is free and open source.

      Prove it. Improve it under different platforms. Then claim it a winner :)
      • I am running Solaris 10 build 72 on an old Dell Precision 220: 800 MHz Pentium III, 384 MB RAM. I had no problems configuring the video or any other hardware, and it "feels", in my opinion, just as fast as RHEL 3 or Windows XP (this is purely subjective, I haven't run any benchmarks on it yet). This build comes with Java Desktop 3 and StarOffice 7 integrated into the OS installer, and so far I am pleased with it.

      • Re:Linus certainly doesn't seem up to date (Score:4, Insightful)

        by E-Lad ( 1262 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @04:24PM (#11152360)
        Solaris 10 is not meant to run on grandma's Pii Celeron.

        You're missing the whole point, and showing your overall ingorance of, Solaris 10. Because of what you said, I greatly doubt that you've even tried to use Solaris 10 in its intended environment and are talking just as Linus did - based on anecdotes which are greatly dated and no longer valid.

        It's designed to run on modern, high-end SPARC, x86, and now AMD64 platforms. Does it run on a hacked up Intel box where the average age of the components varies between 5-8 years? Hell no, and I'm glad Sun isn't wasting resources trying to make sure it does.

        /dale

  • Somewhat disturbing... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by NemosomeN ( 670035 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:06PM (#11150419) Journal
    This, and some replies here seem to act like Solaris enters the OSS world as an enemy that we can now more fully pick apart and find the flaws of to mock them. Kinda disheartening, if that's the angle people are going to take on it.

  • Solaris is a threat? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by learn fast ( 824724 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:07PM (#11150428)
    Why does Solaris have to be seen as a "threat"? A threat to whom, exactly?

    I don't understand. It still baffles me whenever this kind of mentality gurgles up, like when Jimmy Wales said [slashdot.org] that Britannica would be "crushed out of existence" as if that should be one of Wikipedia's goals. What, is Britannica somehow a net negative on the world?

    Come on, get a grip.
  • Choice quote:

    The NIH syndrome (Not Invented Here) is a disease.

    I'm gonna remember that one and use it like a sledge hammer!

  • .

    How can he like Newton so much when Newton was so mean and bitchy [scienceandyou.org]?

    • Oh, calm down now. (Score:3, Informative)

      by AltGrendel ( 175092 )
      He explains in the article: "Now, Newton may not actually have been a very pleasant person in real life, but I think that quote is what personifies science. And open source. The whole point is to stand on the shoulders of giants, and make incremental improvements on concepts and ideas of others."

      You can relax now.

  • Gates dismissive on Linux, Solaris (Score:5, Funny)

    by macshune ( 628296 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:14PM (#11150527) Journal
    REDMOND, WASHINGTON: Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates stated today that he has a rather dismal view of competing operating systems, Linux and Sun Microsystem's Solaris.

    "If Torvalds is dismissive of Solaris, then I'm dismissive of Solaris and Linux. We're all emperors, of sorts, you know, it's just that we all have different styles of government," Mr. Gates said.

    He continued, "My rule of Microsoft is oligarchical, obviously. I just work to prop up the share value enough so that the peasantry doesn't get uppity. I secretly have better things to do than play with my peons, if you know what I mean."

    When pressed to further his analogy for Solaris and Linux, Mr. Gates stated, "Sun Microsystems is like Russia is now, or maybe China. They see that it's beneficial to appeal to...certain kinds of people in order to maintain solvency and growth. It's still autocratic at its root, but there is this illusion of free-market gallantry and an embrace of hitherto unembraced principles that appeals to certain kinds of people. Sort of like, 'do whatever you want, but we still own it and you.'"

    Sun Microsystems is open-sourcing its Solaris operating system in a similar manner to Linux.

    About Linux, Mr. Gates said, "Linux is like the United States with a small federal government that still retains enough power to break the whole thing up, but usually just stands back and helps the children play. Linux guides its adherents in a Jeffersonian grand experiment in freedom and it will be interesting to see if the ideological descendants continue to steer the ship in the same direction, so to speak."

    When asked why he wanted to comment today, Gates said, "I personify my company, so, doesn't it make sense that I don't think too kindly of upstart Linux and grandma Solaris -- operating systems that are little more than pale blue dots in a galaxy of Windows?"

    C'mon, of course Torvalds is a Solaris skeptic!:)

  • Hypocrite... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by adiposity ( 684943 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:16PM (#11150559)
    Solaris/x86 is a joke, last I heard. (It has) very little support for any kind of strange hardware. If you thought Linux had issues with driver availability for some things, let's see you try Solaris/x86. (Editors' note: Drivers enable an operating system to communicate with specific hardware such as a video card or network adapter.)

    Oh really? I guess Linux was a joke for the longest time, then, considering its lack of hardware support. In fact, I guess it's still a joke compared to windows, if driver support is all that (apparently) matters. Why is Linus ripping on the new kind on the block for the exact problem his OS has had since its inception? This is disgusting hypocrisy.

    He should be proud of what he's accomplished, and I'm grateful for his and other's work--but to take this snide attitude when another OS comes along, because it has some of the same problems his OS did originally, is pretty sad.

    -Dan
    • Yeah, but you you had to PAY for Solaris, while Linux is free. If I PAY for something, I expect that they would make it support more hardware than I would expect from a free project where people tend to only write a driver if they need it themselves.

      • Re:Hypocrite... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by adiposity ( 684943 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:31PM (#11150729)
        That was a valid point, back when Solaris x86 was retail, but it isn't going to be the same argument going forward. Linus is dismissing Solaris x86 as a "joke," because it lacks drivers...the same problem Linux has had forever. Once it goes open source, don't you think the drivers will appear? That's part of the reason for open sourcing things.

        It almost seems that Linus is less interested in open-source growing and more interested in Linux being *the* open source OS. Can't say I blame him, but it's not an admirable attitude.

        -Dan
    • Not to say this particular quote isn't a bit hypocritical, but earlier versions of Solaris/x86 were jokes. I used both the x86 and SPARC versions of Solaris 7 and 8, and the x86 version, well, it just stunk. True, hardware was much slower in those days, but it just never felt like Sun paid much attention to it. Kinda like NT/Alpha. Anyway, I have to agree with Linus on this one: last I heard (or rather, used), Solaris/x86 was a joke.

      As a mitigating factor, Sun has a load of full time engineers who ar

    • Problem is maybe there that Solaris isn't actually a new kid in the block AND it is supported and backed by Sun. It is very striking difference between Solaris and Linux.

  • Linus shows one more time... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MikeCapone ( 693319 ) <skelterhell AT yahoo DOT com> on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:25PM (#11150669) Homepage Journal
    Linus shows one more time that he's an intelligent and well spoken individual. A good spokesperson for open source, that's for sure.

    Anybody can imagine Ballmer or Gates giving honest answers like that to an interviewer?

  • Dangerous waters? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by little1973 ( 467075 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:31PM (#11150736)
    Disclaimer: I am against patents.
    From the article:

    Surely if you like the idea of standing on the shoulders of giants, there might be some handy ideas in Solaris. Why ignore it?
    Because I personally don't think they have anything left worth taking after I've applied the general Unix principles. I really do think Linux is the better system by now, in all the ways that matter.

    But more importantly, if I'm wrong, that's OK. People who know Solaris better than I do will tell me and other people about the great things they offer. To try to figure it out on my own would be a waste of time. (emphasis mine)

    In our patent driven world, isn't it dangerous to say such things? Since Linux was attacked with patent infrigement claims, Linus should be more careful about saying things which make the reader think about IP theft.

  • "Solaris/x86 is a joke, last I heard." (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ZuggZugg ( 817322 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:32PM (#11150740)
    "Solaris/x86 is a joke, last I heard. (It has) very little support for any kind of strange hardware. If you thought Linux had issues with driver availability for some things, let's see you try Solaris/x86."

    I'm sure the comment will be taken all out of context...can't wait to see the mud slinging that ensues. Check Schwartz's blog/marketing tool for the comebacks in the next few days. Torvalds comments are mostly true for the non-server market, and Sun first and foremost is going after the server market with Solaris x86 although they are actively porting JDS to Solaris x86 which I think will run into problems that Linus mentions above.

    To personally counter some of Mr. Torvalds other claims, historically Solaris x86 was a non-starter, but with a company like Sun pushing it now fully (especially on x86-64), it shouldn't be hard to find proper driver support for the majority of server installs from IBM, HP, Sun (of course), and Dell going forward. Where they're going to have to work hard is getting all the ISV's to port apps to another Unix with very small marketshare. Money always helps in that department and Sun is not shy about the fact that they have billions in the bank...so it could happen.

    As for Linus' comments about Linux being superior to Solaris, I'm not so sure about that. Perhaps from a licensing perspective, and some aspect of the kernel might be as tight...but...

    Solaris 10 has some neat features that don't fully exist in Linux or lack the polish that is found in Solaris.

    Zones, fair share schedulers, zfs looks neat..., dtrace is amazing,

    If Linux can polish up some the projects that do similar things as the above mentionned items than I think there isn't much reason to consider Solaris anymore.

  • Cognitive dissonance (Score:5, Insightful)

    by asliarun ( 636603 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @02:38PM (#11150808)
    I think that a lot of commentators have misunderstood Linus' answers. When Linus blandly said that he's not even going to bother studying Solaris/x86 in detail, he meant that he's not a Solaris expert. The Linux development model, by its very nature, means that any new technology of sufficient value would be easily incorporated in Linux. Linus simply meant that because he has created a dynamic atmosphere that encourages the adoption of ideas, he really doesn't need to inspect a competitive OS with a fine-toothed comb himself. If Solaris 10 does have features that get widely adopted by it's customers and proves itself over time, it would be a trivial issue to incorporate the feature in Linux (if it makes sense).

    He's not dismissive of Solaris; he simply has a lot of confidence in his development model.

    IMHO, of course.

  • Did I miss something ? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Builder ( 103701 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @03:58PM (#11151983)
    From TFA:

    It seems to me that they have taken some action besides just grandstanding. They have resurrected the x86 version and added several interesting features--containers, DTrace, and ZFS, for example--that are available today in beta versions of Solaris 10.

    Did I miss something ? I thought that ZFS wasn't available in the beta stuff yet ?

    Sun are in a hole. At the moment, they're writing to their enterprise customers asking that they (their customers) contact their ISV's and request software for Solaris x86. This is a bloody dangerous thing to do and could cost a lot of people in a lot of companies their jobs in the medium term.

    Think about it - 10 of your customers (and you only have 20 or 30) phone and ask for your app on Solaris x86. They may be doing this because they genuinely want it, or more likely because they want to keep in Sun's good books and use this favour for improved discounts down the road. So you hire some new developers, move some existing developers from your Linux / Solaris on SPARC port and get going on the x86 port. You bring it to market and NO-ONE buys! So you lay off the extra people you hired, you lay off a couple more people because your profits are in the shitter because of the development commitment you made, and you hire off some more people just because redundancies always spawn more redundancies. And all this because Sun are trying to make a grassroots movement where there isn't one!

  • Name calling? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by saj_s ( 667330 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @04:12PM (#11152189)
    > Solaris/x86 is a joke, last I heard.

    Last I heard? Come on Linus, please don't let what could be a healthy discussion degenerate into childish name calling. Such comments are usually the preserve of those that don't have anything constructive to add.

  • Gee, Schwartz Must Have As Much Money As Gates (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Master of Transhuman ( 597628 ) on Tuesday December 21, 2004 @04:43PM (#11152669) Homepage
    given he's apparently paid all the Solaris trolls to come out of the woodwork and diss Linus for a one-paragraph comment.

    Sun is history. Period. Forget about them.

    If they had been smart five years ago, they (and HP and IBM) would have ditched their proprietary Unix platforms and handed over the enterprise features to Linux (like SGI did with their file system) and concentrate on adding value with system management tools. They would have had a prayer of competing with Microsoft then.

    Now, they're going to end up doing that anyway - after they've lost to Microsoft and Linux.

    I have no sympathy for Solaris users. You backed the wrong horse. Tough. Deal with it.

    In ten years, the only people running any other Unix OS except Linux will be the same sort of people who still run IBM System/3 minicomputers.

    In other words, morons.

    Linus is right. He doesn't have to care about Solaris - he's going to get all of Solaris's useful features in Linux sooner or later anyway - one way or the other.

    Like the saying goes, "If you aren't part of the steamroller, you're part of the road." Or as Linus quipped about Gates' book, "Anybody standing in the road looks like roadkill to me."

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