LAMP Grid Application Server, No More J2EE 615
An anonymous reader writes "Check out this blog entry in Loosely Coupled about ActiveGrid's new open source Grid Application Server based on the LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP/Python/Perl) stack. Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war, but it looks like LAMP is starting to grow up, and that it is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE."
In which world? (Score:5, Insightful)
What the hell do you base that peice of tripe on? Why lets compare an incomplete system cobled together on top of PHP to a mature Java based solution which is currently being used in hundreds of thousands of enterprise sites daily throughout the world. Yeah, I can see how LAMP just kicks J2EE's ass on that one.
Seriously, overhype much?
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:In which world? (Score:5, Insightful)
People often equate J2EE with web applications and so do the J2EE-vs-LAMP comparison without the right information. J2EE is more than just web applications. You can build non-web clients that use the J2EE component model (they can even be built in other languages and use CORBA mappings). J2EE provides connections to legacy systems. J2EE supports asynchronous messaging. You can do pretty much everything transactionally with J2EE as well, so that if something fails along the way you can rollback your changes.
Actually, comparing J2EE to LAMP is wrong in another way. A J2EE server can run on Linux. An Apache web server is often used as a front end to a J2EE server (especially when you integrate the app server within an already-existing web server infrastructure). You could use MySQL (though I think you'd better off using ASA [ianywhere.com], but I'm biased) as long as you make sure to use transactional tables. There goes the "LAM" part of "LAMP".
So really, you're comparing the Java-based J2EE framework against similar Perl/PHP/Python frameworks. At least, that's what you should be comparing. Maybe for pure web apps the latter are better. I don't know, but you have to compare oranges to oranges.
EricJavaScript is not Java [ericgiguere.com]
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, Perl and PHP have their uses, but running large commercial websites is not their strong suite, at least not with the additional maintenance requirements on ours.
Re:In which world? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh come on! Some of the most heavily trafficed sites in the world - commerical and otherwise - are built on perl/php and seem to do just fine. Why do these discussions ALWAYS degenerate into "technology Y is better than technology X"? The fact of the matter is that, within a pretty broad spectrum of reason, what technology you use is not the deciding factor of how successful and maintainable your app is going to be. The day someone does come out with a miracle technology that REALLY improves a project's chances of success, we'll all know about it pretty darn quick because everybody will flock to it overnight - and i mean actual people, not magazine articles or Oreilly books. Given that we're all still having "my language can beat up your language" discussions on Slashdot, it's pretty safe to say that we're not at that point yet.
If you had a bad experience with a Perl/PHP based site before, the chances are pretty high that the fault is more with the designers (or lack of) and builders than the languages used. No sweat, this job is a learning experience and the first couple of apps will always be dogfood. A very good book once described mastery (in the development business) as the stage where you don't want to rip up all the code you've done in the last six months and start over.
Re:In which world? (Score:5, Informative)
Zope has:
Built-in object database (hence Z Object Publishing Environment - ZOPE).
Built-in http server (Medusa), and ftp server.
Ability to integrate with other http servers (i.e. Apache).
Built-in scripting/application language (Python - and you can add Perl if desired)
Built-in ability to connect to traditional relational databases, if needed.
WEBDAV compliant.
Built-in support for XML, HTML, DTML, TAL, TALES, METAL, and CSS.
Ability to extend the environment by building modules that become integral to the site.
Web client based development and administration - with access control built-in and fully configurable to your needs. If you can reach it from the network, you can develop and administer it.
A large stable of free/open source modules that can be loaded (Plone - a full function CRM solution, Zwiki - wikiwiki web clone, just to name a few).
Built-in ability to cluster a site across multiple machines (can be architected to serve behind an SLB for scalability, or in seperate geographical locations to provide local access to shared resources).
This is the fastest development environment I have seen - bar none. The biggest benefit comes from the object database - you don't have to think about a logical or physical data model beyond the needs of your application - you don't have to worry about how structures are defined in the database. You can move your data structures inside of your scripts directly into the object database as-is without having to monkey with table structures and all of the other baggage a relational database carries with it. Once you understand and use the object database, you never want to go back. Of course, you can attach to SQL databases, and do the silly walk if needed.
I set up a CRM solution using Plone that has been up and working for 6 months now with minimal time babysitting it. Adjunct to that, I have built several unique apps far quicker than our IT department could possibly accomplish using J2EE (we have several projects through that group that are years overdue and over budget - hence my move to Zope for internal development of critical support functions that can not wait).
Among the principles behind the Agile Manifesto are several that are instructive:
"Our highest priority is to satisfy the customer through early and continuous delivery of valuable software."
"Welcome changing requirements, even late in development. Agile processes harness change for the customer's competitive advantage."
"Deliver working software frequently, from a couple of weeks to a couple of months, with a preference to the shorter timescale."
Zope has helped me be successful with all of the above. How do your tools measure up?
Point me to a fast Zope site (Score:3, Interesting)
Java has everything you listed, and multiple frameworks to boot - if your J2EE people are so far behind, perhaps they should just be writing servlets, or using Tapestry or Spring or IDE's that help you put together standard J2EE components more quickly.
P
Re:In which world? (Score:5, Informative)
Ability to publish zope objects with SOAP
CORBA support.
Message queues
Object relational layer
transaction support for relational databases
RMI or it's equavalent in python
Common logging infrastructure (log4j)
Timed services (cron like device for calling certain code)
Naming directory.
But what it lacks more then anything else is good documentation. Yes there are lots of products but the vast majority of them have no more then a one sentence explation.
FInally a plea to whoever is reading this.
I hate Java, please please please build a J2EE like container for python or ruby make sure it has everything I have listed above.
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Interesting)
SOAP and CORBA are data transport protocols. What would stop you from writing a product in python to handle these formats? Message queues are a physical implementation of those protocols. Again, you can implement your own queues in python (or any other language for that matter) This can be handled external to the Zope framework and passed into Zope via external methods.
Re:Why not use Jython? or Groovy? (Score:3, Interesting)
Among python, perl, and PHP, only python has superior language syntax to Java, and groovy leapfrogs python. Groovy's syntax is probably second only to ruby in term of OO purity and clarity. Perl's CPAN libraries are the only one competitive with Java's libraries (and java wins narrowly even over perl). When you give groovy syntax to java, you will have an absolutley lethal combination.
Goovy's benefits from complete bytecode equivalence to Java can
Re:Why not use Jython? or Groovy? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Among python, perl, and PHP, only python has superior language syntax to Java"
Here is an example from the apache merlin web site
"ReferenceDescriptor reference =
new ReferenceDescriptor( Widget.class.getName() );
ComponentModel model = (ComponentModel) m_model.getModel( reference );
model.commission();
Widget widget = (Widget) model.resolve();"
Notice how you have to type eve
Re:In which world? (Score:5, Funny)
Some people, when confronted with a problem, say, "Let's use CORBA."
Now they have two problems.
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Interesting)
When the owners of the website first came to me, they basically had a team of developers who worked around the clock to maintain the old website which was running JSP and Oracle on a total of 5 servers (I don't know the proc, mem, etc).
The website ran like a damn pig and the owners were tired of all the problems.
Basically, they came to me and asked me if I could re-create the entire website using FOSS an
Re:In which world? (Score:5, Insightful)
Give me your PHP/MySQL solution and I bet I can bring it to its knees with a few properly placed bad queries and/or data structures.
To make any conclusions about technologies based on your one example would be a crime (...though, this is /. after all...)
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Interesting)
However, from my experience, in the future I will always recommend the setup I've already explained because I know it works well.
Give me your PHP/MySQL solution and I bet I can bring it to its knees with a few properly placed bad queries and/or data structures.
Of course, bad code will bring anything to its knees, n
Re:In which world? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) PHP
For web scripting.
Do something small and fast.
Will run fast.
Won't scale for the strictest rules of scaling.
2) J2EE
For everything big, not just web sites.
Do something large and right, which takes more front time, but much less time to keep up. A good way to program yourself out of a job, easily. (Can be done with PHP, but not really stressed so much.)
Will run fast, but can consume a lot of resources in the process. If it's running slow, just give it more memory, and learn -Xmx settings.
Will scale in all senses of the word.
Now... a little on the scalability...
1) Load balancers are only 1 section of a huge problem, and you can load balance anything, including LAMP.
2) Transaction support is new to the M in lamp, and no one uses them in the P part. J2EE has a transaction system (JTA) that will combine all your data access into one big happy transaction, on all your resources that support JTA (includes JDBC).
3) Session state replication is completely absent from LAMP. A server could catch fire in a good J2EE configuration, and when the user clicks submit, they wouldn't even know, because at least two servers will have the users session id.
Ok... now about why it takes less upkeep in J2EE land...
1) Specs require backwards compatibility in all new versions. I've had problems with every section of LAMP on this issue, but never on J2EE.
2) A JSP page is only supposed to display information and forms. There is no logic in it. If you have problems with this, I recommend STRUTS. Some people recommend WebWork or Spring. It's a matter of taste, but STRUTS is still the top dog. In PHP, you have to work hard to not mix the two. I used to do action= in the get to simulate this behavior, but it's still not as good, just workable.
3) If you want a rich application accessing your data, you can do it through the same CORBA, SOAP, or XMLRPC calls. The newest spec from J2EE allows you to turn a normal function on a Session Bean (EJB) into a web service that can be called from anything, including JavaScript on Mozilla or a Flash animation (I have done this). Since it's calling the exact same method, if the database changes, you only have to update the code in the least number of places possible.
Features completely abscent from LAMP:
Good web-service support (you can fake it, but Zope actually does XML RPC for you)
JTA (Transaction system)
JMS (Messaging System for asynchronous processing)
Things commonly thought to be missing from Java, but aren't:
Easy scripting of SQL (The Java Standard Taglib is far easier to use than anything I used in PHP or Perl, but Zope probably has everyone beat there)
Speed (the bottleneck in 99% of all software is disk related... If you know how to make a database properly, it will be fast.)
Genuine concerns with Java:
Memory consumption.
Threading on your particular platform.
Lagged support for the newest features on all platforms.
Doesn't automatically pool database connections.
Can be hard to configure properly.
Requires more knowledge than it lets on.
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Informative)
Umm, your not very good with php are you? Like any product you need to use it correctly, with the right set of tools to get it to work properly. Most people install php and dont do any optimizing whatsoever, and when their code runs slow blame php. First off, you need to compile php yourself, with only the options you need. Secondly, if you want to run enterprise PHP apps, you need Zend's tools. What, never he
Re:In which world? (Score:3, Informative)
For a free (at least as in beer) PHP extension to transparently cache the compiled version of you PHP scripts (instead of recompiling every page load), check out
PHP-Accelerator [php-accelerator.co.uk].
"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (Score:5, Funny)
Not provocative at all that. No. Not in the slightest.
I'm sure the flamewar that no doubt follows is merely a figment of our collective imaginations.
Re:"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (Score:2, Funny)
Re:"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (Score:3, Funny)
Here is a box of matches and a gallon of gasoline. Lets see who can light a mathc quickest after being drenched in gasoline.
Re:"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (Score:3, Funny)
I use carrier pigeons to transmit the hole punch data to chicken routes, that spits out egg packets to your computers.
Next week, we are migrating to ant communication through the use of their scent glands for communication. Open Source all the way... just grab an ant and hack the chemistry and the biology.
Re:"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, and they snarl.
What the? (Score:5, Funny)
Thats like me saying, "Not to offend you, but check out goatse.cx!"
ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!
Re:What the? (Score:5, Insightful)
LAMP is great for what it does, but MySQL has no place in the enterprise. There's way too much important stuff that it lacks. I'm sure the nice folks who run /. can tell you of their many misadventures with MySQL, if they chose to...
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find my asbestos suit.
Re:What the? (Score:3, Informative)
MySQL no place? It has many places... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What the? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What the? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What the? (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me get this straight (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Let me get this straight (Score:2)
In this discussion, it is what you are shilling that is the inherently slow platform.
Re:Let me get this straight (Score:2)
Quite the reverse (Score:3, Funny)
He's saying: use a suite of highly-optimized tools (the various LAMP components, most of which are fast and all of which can be replaced with alternatives as necessary) rather than throw more hardware at an inherently slow platform (Java).
It's all pretty much a matter of what you were brought up with. On the other hand, I'm working for a household-name client now that's banned Java across the board because they got sick of the 'buy more chips' solution to performance problems. Acceptable platforms: LAM
Lisp vs. C (Score:4, Insightful)
ah, the eternal dynamic/productive/high-level/slow vs static/unproductive/low-level/fast debacle.
Nice to see the Lisp vs C flame still going strong these days... :)
Nice to see too both have many intelectual descendents which are very good on their own.
And finally, nice to see that both sides of the same coin have seen such widespread adoption to this day, proof that more than one way of thinking is a good thing.
Re:Lisp vs. C (Score:3, Insightful)
Help me understand where the functional paradigm of Lisp enters either side...
New /. business model? (Score:4, Insightful)
Where to go ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Where to go ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Take a look at O'Reillys "Better, Faster, Lighter Java"
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/
IMHO Java scales very well, from small prototype projects right up to enterprise level apps. PHP is fine for the smaller stuff but I'd rather poke my eyes out with a white hot needle than develop and enterprise app with it.
Re:Where to go ? (Score:5, Informative)
Not that I have qualms with any attempt to provide these services in PHP. It's not a matter of having just one tool in your toolbox, but rather knowing which tool is right for which job. My only response to the original poster is "I don't want to start a flamewar, but if you aren't a sound enough engineer to know when to use which tool, you pretty much suck."
Re:Where to go ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Allright then...
and there are no free (as in beer) quality servers
Apache Tomcat.
(..and kinky, every one and their mom developed a framework)
Doesn't mean you have to use them all.
I want a decent middle ware, that is cross platform, fast, and well documented, free as in beer (and preferably as in speech also).
That's Java.
Re:he said quality servers (nt) (Score:3, Informative)
Tomcat is an enterprise level, quality implementation of the servlet specification. We use it at work backending to a postgresql database and the traffic loads (and system loads of complex financial analysis) are high but Tomcat has been able to handle anything we through at it.
So with a bit of clue learning to write xml config files you have a fast, efficient, standard-adhesive and supported servlet cont
Re:Free? (Score:3, Informative)
OTOH, if you really want to add features to the JRE, there's no stopping you from extracting a class from rt.jar and replacing it with one you wrote. If you're really clever, you can even get a bytecode editor, change the name of the original class, then writing a new class with the original name that extends the original class, and only adds the new features you want...
Re:Free? (Score:3, Informative)
JNI is more than adequate if you only need to access external libraries.
Language extensions could be handled by the C/C++ model - write a tool that compiles your "j++" code into standard java and then compile that.
Use Lisp (Score:5, Interesting)
The language is well-documented. Implementations range from simple interpreters to complex, optimizing compilers (they are on par with C, and sometimes outperform it). It has packages for many purposes, enough to implement Yahoo! Store at any rate.
People complain about the parentheses (some say LISP is short for Lots of Irritating Superfluous Parentheses). That's a valid point. In C syntax, at least there's variation. Besides parentheses there are curly braces, straight brackets, commas, semicolons, etc. Seriously, the parentheses make for a very simple and consistent syntax.
Lisp allows you to program in whichever paradigm suits you best (pick the right one for the task at hand). Functional, object oriented, imperative, it's all there. It's macro system is so powerful it lets you basically generate programs, rather than writing them. Add garbage collection, higher order functions, dynamic typing (although static typing can be used for performance), arbitrary precision arithmetic (integers are not limited to 32 bits), multiple inheritance, and tail call optimization (recursion in constant space), and you have a language that blows all others out of the water.
Why does nobody use it? Fear, uncertainty and doubt. People think it died with AI. People think its old, so it won't be up to modern tasks. People can't get over the parentheses. The boss won't approve it. Nobody else uses it, so it's hard to get support. Any number of reasons.
Re:Use Lisp (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I think those were all pretty valid reasons.
Re:Use Lisp (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree.
Don't know why the hell people modded this funny. It is very serious. But then again, most of the code-monkeys enterprises like to hire for quick hacks for low salaries wouldn't ever be able to use nor understand Lisp.
Of course, VB lusers can laugh at Lisp, since they don't understand it, but some very large companies use Lisp as the base for their systems, like Intercontinental Airlines (using C++ like assembly for critical sections) and Yahoo.
Re:Use Lisp (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Use Lisp (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Where to go ? (Score:4, Insightful)
In my experience, as a developer and as a web user, a simple non-EJB java webapp running a relatively mature framework (or not), on something like Resin is capable of tremendous performance, but I'll state that as opinion to try and avoid baiting some PHP flametard into posting how many views his anime forum can handle.
If you are developing for something that isn't going on a server you run, with a nice simple Java webapp all of a sudden you (or more often someone else) can choose your OS (Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc), your DB server (MySQL, PostreSQL, Oracle, etc), AND your web server (Apache, IIS, none, etc). Thats something that MSFT and LAMP-heads don't offer (without compromising their acronym) and something that client IT departments will very much appreciate. A "pure" admin (i.e. one who doesn't consider him/herself a developer), HATES being told by some outside developer to patch their systems, or run something they don't know or don't like.
Mason rather than PHP (Score:3, Informative)
Forget about clunky PHP, try Mason instead [masonhq.com]. And use whichever db makes sense for you - for us it's often Oracle but then we've got the DBAs and experience to make use of it (oh and the licences...).
And sometimes Java (even J2EE) makes more sense than working in Perl. Which is why we do that too.
Choose the kit of parts that suits your application needs and the skills of your developers. And think about avoiding lock-in to a closed-source vendor. That has always seemed like a big risk for a project.
Re:Mason rather than PHP (Score:3, Interesting)
We started using Mason here and have just not looked back. It has so many useful features built-in for site maintenance, and to top it all it allows me to embed Perl. We put all our application logic in Perl modules, then wrap the site around it using Mason.
In fact I hereby propose a new meaning for LAMP:
Linux
Apache
Mason
Postgres
Re:Where to go ? (Score:4, Interesting)
You do realise that J2EE is not a synonym for EJB don't you? And that xdoclet is one of the worst villains when it comes to meta-data hell?
Do yourself a favour, stick with J2EE, dump that p-o-s EJB and use Hibernate [hibernate.org] and Spring [springframework.org] and you'll do fine: and be amazed how much you can achieve if you don't tie yourself to the EJB dead horse. Seriously: you'll thank me.
Re:Where to go ? (Score:3, Insightful)
EJBs do have their place. They are good for distibuting your objects across servers when the data processing is so costly that it outweighs the cost of remote invocation.
The problem with EJBs is that everyone tried to use them for everything, and later realised that they were using an expensive (processing wise) hammer to crack a nut.
JMS and MDBs also shouldn't be ignored...they too have their place.
To claim that E
Re:J2EE != EJB (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, and when your security needs are more complex than the simplistic EJB model, you have to either use no declarative security (and write your own) or to apply ugly hacks around the deficiencies...
Get a fucking grip (Score:2, Insightful)
The only thing this indicates to me is that Grid/LAMP is going to struggle to gain acceptance in the enterprise because it proponents are idiots.
Re:Get a fucking grip (Score:2)
Regadless how good something new is, people are not going to abandon it as said above. (This is not meant as comment on the relative merits of the two systems)
Still no TPC (Score:5, Interesting)
LAMP (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:LAMP (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Still no TPC (Score:3, Informative)
I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
--
Wiki de Ciencia Ficcion y Fantasia [uchile.cl]
Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:4, Funny)
ba-DING.
Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:2)
Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:2)
Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:2)
Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (Score:2)
However, the "extreme pain" your are probably reffering to is most of the free server software we all install is mainly for LAMP. Using another db is probably the least tested item. In addition to so MANY of these projects are haphazard in
Do not equate JAva to J2EE (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war, but it looks like LAMP is starting to grow up, and that it is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE
(emphasis mine)
Remember, folks, Java is more than just J2EE and J2EE is only a part of Java. There are many enterprise applications written without the cancer that is J2EE. There a great number of alternative frameworks for building enterprise applications.
Personally, I feel that J2EE justifies itself because the bloat of a J2EE server means you have to have multiple instances to support an equivalent load a non-J2EE solution could handle on a single server.
Re:Do not equate JAva to J2EE (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally I think you're wrong. J2EE is great if you need the features it supports: JMS, distributed transactions, database connection pooling, jsp/servlets etc etc.
Now if you'd said "EJB", which is only a part of J2EE: and by far its worst part, then I'd have agreed with you. EJB is the epitome of what happens when something is designed by committee.
Slashdotted. (Score:2, Informative)
Anyway, here is TFA:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:AXRoWhcH5UIJ:w
RTFA (Score:3, Funny)
Translation? (Score:3, Funny)
What with the concurrent text pump synergies, next languages, impedance mismatches and grid quantum antipolarity trilithium subspace continuums, I got a bit lost.
Anyone understand what they're peddling?
LAMP may be fine for web-based applications... (Score:5, Insightful)
"There is no impedance mismatch, everything talks SOAP/HTTP" - well, yes, that's great, but you shouldn't be talking SOAP/HTTP internally. There are faster means of communication, so use them.
"Apparently what is needed is a language/environment that is loosely typed in order to encapsulate XML well and that can efficiently process text" - only on input and output. In intermediary stages, you should be using a much more efficient format. If you're doing something clever, it's going to involve much more than just plain old text.
"J2EE and
RTFA and you'll see that LAMP is being pushed for "text-pumping". Why aren't they saying it's any good for anything else? Because it most likely isn't.
Scripting languages suck (Score:2, Insightful)
But with any scripting language, you have to run the application to catch even trivial bugs like misspelled methods and incorrect argument type
Re:Scripting languages suck (Score:2)
Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Article is Slashdotted, so I can't comment on the content, but just to reply to some of the posts that will defenitely come up, because they ALWAYS come up when Java is discussed-
EJB are bloated etc:
J2EE is does NOT equal Enterprise Javabeans. J2EE contains classes for lots of things. XML processing, messages, web servers, database connectivity, etc. You don't have to use EJB. Lots of Java developers don't like EJB because they are too cumbersome, and there are plenty of alternatives. Check out for instance O'Reillys recent book Better, Faster, Lighter Java [oreilly.com].
Java is slow:
Startup time for the JVM is still slow yes. This rarely matters for a web/application server. When it comes to running, it is plenty enough.
It isn't open source:
So what. It's close enough.
Ok, that over with, was this darn topic necessary? I like both LAMP and Java. They have their uses, why did the poster and the article have to turn this into a confrontation?
More marketing hype (Score:3)
I love marketing hype like this.
One sure sign of marketing hype is to quote a venture capitalist on technology. That's why we all don't own a Segway, despite its claimed "future".
Second of all, a technical paper shouldn't be based around a press release that quotes the same venture capitalist. Not too many technologists will take that seriously.
Next, don't bring the NetDynamics CTO near me. Maybe he's a good guy and all, but in my experience, NetDynamics was one fucked up product. And this was before AND after Sun gobbled them up. It was like the Marketeers and Experimentationalists got into it, forgot that it was supposed to be an enterprise product, and screwed it to hell.
Finally, a combination of Perl, PHP, and Python for a complicated enterprise app isn't going to win any awards - damn, how many specialists does one need?
Finally, I'm not going to be running my payroll on a core of MySQL, PHP, Python, and Perl. And which version of Apache? 1.3 or 2.0? Perl 6? Why isn't ksh in there?
I love people that seamingly have ZERO large, enterprise-class application experience telling those who do how to do it.
Apples and Oranges (Score:2)
But J2EE does more than just web apps. It's strength is being a business application server with Swing GUI front-end, the only competition in that field is
A fairer comparison would be LAMP and JS
Flamewar (Score:5, Funny)
Laughing all the way! (Score:5, Insightful)
No seriously, it is like comparing apples and oranges. PHP and the wonderous LAMP stack (I have just heard about it, so that is the first stumbling block for its adoption! many companies like to be fast followers) might be able to do what Java does if you look at output, it might even be quick, but that has nothing to do with the costs and development and staffing that real people with real money care about.
Java has a huge demand in industry that is being met with huge interest in terms of capable candidates which is proven by the number of successful and *bearing in mind this isn't a flamewar!* well written open source project out there.
The level of Java competency in the industry is growing enormously as a result, which is a good thing. PHP is also good, and I like PHP, lets not get things mixed up here.
[snip = list of reasons why people choose java, which was boring even me]
Also J2EE is *the* platform for applications running for thousands of users, on machines with 90+ GB of ram, and 24 processors just to handle the data requirements.
Oracle love J2EE. Oracle is a fairly decent enterprise (not just performance, but support and board level confidence) db to say the least.
Now, LAMP might be lovely, but why even pitch it against anything, dear LAMP community, just be, don't try and compare it against anything.
FUD et al.
PS: erm, nerr nerr? u sux0r? pwned? I am loosing my touch at this internet name calling gaff, time to retire.
Ruby on Rails, and Trails (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the guys in our user's group, Chris Nelson, is building a similar framework for Java - called Trails [theserverside.com]. He also built a blogging application live during the meeting. It took him a bit longer - perhaps 15-20 minutes. It was impressive as well, although I will say that for Trails you need to know a fair amount about Hibernate [hibernate.org] and Tapestry [apache.org]. Realize that he's been working on this only for a few months and suddenly you see that this work is very impressive too.
Anyone interested in developing web apps might want to check these projects out - very impressive stuff!
Whoa there cowboy.. you don't understand. (Score:5, Insightful)
J2EE is not about the OS, server or database. It's a specification. JBoss (JBass.. heh), Geronimo, Welogic and many others are implementations of it. Some are certified, some are not, like Resin.
You can run it on many os's, including linux. Apache is making one of the J2EE servers. I'm not sure where databases came into all of this, since it's fairly independent. I.e. w/ jboss, there are data mappings for all of these servers, if you decide to use EJB, which is part of the spec, but not a requirement to use. The last thing is the big ol' P.
J2EE is a set of technology specs. Things like XML manipulations (JAXB, JAXM), communication "stuff", like SOAP, JMS and JMX, database abstractions, like EJB using JDO, CMP, BMP.. "web stuff", though you can do your own protocols, with the servlet spec. Last I checked, the closes to a spec I've seen is p5ee, which had an interesting run. You had options of what to use, maybe too many, in p5ee, but that was about it. It would have been nice to see a tight binding between everything.
Anyway.. the LAM in LAMP is irrelivant in this article. I can use Linux, Apache and MySQL with J2EE if I so desired.
GAS LAMP (Score:5, Funny)
So does that make it a GAS LAMP?
*ta dit boom*
Erm, back to basics folks... EE and strings? (Score:5, Insightful)
So we came from string programming roots, we developed OOP and AOP, and now... now we go back to string programming because of xml parsing?
I find this a worrying trend, you have to understand, an application is state, and behaviour.
This is trying to tie an application into a 'thin veneer' over an operating system, which seems a bit worrying for an app that will cost a few million to develop in the right circles.
Be reducing all the benefits of OOP (huge and varied, numerous and wonderful) we seek to define our crowining enterprise applications with an approach from the 70's that would pioneer the use of string processing programming constructs over highly developed and structured powerful programming tools.
The program isn't the code, it isn't the data, it is the design, the behaviour, the organisation, the people understanding it. All of this becomes very alien to us when we go this route.
Humanising code is key to developing the kind of applications this company has now touted.
What is looselycoupled? Anyone read it regularly? is it a valid news source? Is this some free advertising for a fad?
I am almost tempted to read more about the LAMP, but I just have a knowing feeling it will be another 'cure all' product.
Yep, tick tick, oops, missed one, back to step 1.
Finally! (Score:3, Funny)
Just tools, use them accordingly (Score:5, Interesting)
For large scale projects, I use Java. It is great Object oriented language that I can use to the fullest extent. I can get very close to that MVC pattern that is soo useful in large-scale projects. I don't use EJBs -- not needed them yet. I use the JMS, WebServices, JSP/Servlets, etc. We connect to a real database (DB2). J2EE offers a completely different scale with work with. You can do everything from simple web applications to clustered app servers at several levels.
For smaller stuff, I like LAMP fairly well. It is simple and easy to get started, although not great for larger projects (code reuse, management, scaleability). MySQL, again, nice and fast for small stuff. I perfer PostgreSQL because of the power and flexibility. I'm trying to move more towards PostgreSQL especially after recent changes in licensing with MySQL. For these projects in general, I like PHP over Perl for webpages. Perl is still great for admin tools on the console or for confusing the heck out of folks not familiar with your code. PHP is simple and made for website based applications. Again, I'm not going down that path if I know it will grow into a huge project.
The deal is, they are tools. The both have their strengths and weaknesses. Evaluate your needs, and choose the best tool for the job. I use both and love both -- but choose wisely.
WebObjects Cocoa::Apple should re-release (Score:3)
Seeing all this about this kicks ass over this rhetoric it is too bad Apple decided to curtail the original WebObjects into Java and not provide WebObjects ObjC and the full-power of EOF and all the extensive frameworks.
Hopefully, they'll release it and rejuvenate their Enteprise presence, but who knows.
Re:mirrordot not quick enough (Score:5, Informative)
Example:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:AXRoWhcH5UIJ:w
Re:mirrordot not quick enough (Score:3, Informative)
They are there to prevent trolls from stretching the width of the page by inserting silly long strings of text that lack breaks.
Slash code adds spaces, and that enables the text to wrap, meaning you don't get an ugly and ill-behaving website.
The point is... Add the tag or make it HTML formatted to make Slash know that it is a URL and to not only hyperlink it, but not to break it either in the hyperlink (but still in the render as we still don't want wide pages).
Re:mirrordot not quick enough (Score:2)
Re:J2EE? (Score:2)
Re:Java versus PHP? (Score:2)
Re:I just got myself some new asbestos underwear (Score:5, Insightful)
Why "of course"?
Am I alone in wondering exactly what a "next-generation application" is anyway?
What qualities or requirements define a "next-generation application", other than it not having been developed yet?
Anyhow, it was my take on the article that the use of 'P' languages was incidental, it was the grid concept and the horizontal scaling. The 'P' languages just happen to be part of a readily available set of tools for implementing this idea.
Forced into and OO "paradigm"? (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason for using an OO language is to get you to work with objects and encapsulation. There's a really good reason to do any large enterprise level application using objects. That is that the app is being designed to last longer than one year. That means that during it's life back-end systems are going to change, customer requirements are going to change, and new requirements are going to be introduced.
If you haven't properly separated out all of the portions of your code then when they come back and say "can you give us these two functions running on PDA's?" you're gonna be SOL.
(I spent a year building a system and they promised to transition one of the back-end systems to a whole new platform by the end of the job. They never succeeded but we developed against the old system and the new so it didn't slow us down one bit. THAT'S why you take the time to do OO work.)
You're missing the point (Score:3, Insightful)
The "heavy" part of the application is what does all of the back-end work. Database manipulation, messaging, legacy-system communication and integration, calculations, life cycle management, etc.
The fact is that customers hardly ever know what they want when you start developing. Development is a continuous feedback cycle where you show some, get new requirements, and show some more.
So, maybe you save
Rapid prototyping overrated (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides, rapid prototyping is overrated for all but impr
Re:I just got myself some new asbestos underwear (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Parent rewritten with some HTML code (Score:5, Insightful)
It took me one week as part of a work placement in a summer holiday to learn all about EJBs. Either it can't be that hard, or I'm a genius.
Oh, and I think it's a little contradictory to argue this line, then argue along the lines of just doing some no-brainer form-filling with the application server.
J2EE is about more than just shopping carts, and thus it WILL take longer to learn than a system that's suited to running an online shopping cart.
Java AS suck RAM big time (and CPU too). BEA advises customers to use open-source technology (Apache) to server static content, cuz' it would kill the server.
That's because application servers are not web servers. Sledgehammer and nut spring to mind.
PHP actually is running the internet far more than java has ever been
See above. Java is about running applications that just so happen to have a web front-end. PHP is about hosting websites that just so happen to have some application logic behind them.
J2EE only has it place in big enterprises that are willing to get it becuase the big bucks it costs come with some big name company that offers support.
"the big bucks it costs" - *COUGH* [jboss.org]
even in enterprise contexts, the largest part of the majority of apps is pretty stupid form entry and validation
If that's the case, you don't need a big server cluster to manage it...
Re:Developing distributed apps is very hard with J (Score:3, Funny)