Desktop Apps Ripe Turf for Open Source 270
Amy Kucharik writes "Two new reports on open source validate office suite application alternatives like OpenOffice.org and StarOffice and their push into the mainstream against market giant Microsoft Office. "
Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell, I have downloaded Firefox on countless occasions (usually to test a new version). It never lasts more than an hour on my machine. Does that count as a piece of market-share in the browser war when I don't actually use it?
I have downloaded OpenOffice multiple times as well (on multiple computers) to test and to tour the features newer version have to offer. Again, the install may last a few hours while I test the features that I require. So my 25+ downloads counted towards the 16+ million?
I am glad to see that somewhat viable alternatives are coming into their own and getting media attention but I don't know if we really need to be associated with false numbers just to get the word out. It doesn't exactly give us a leg to stand on when MSFT fires back about the artificially inflated numbers.
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:5, Interesting)
And I compensate because I keep the latest version on my usb stick that I carry around in my pocket. And I upgrade it on all my work machines, my home machines and the friends that I visit. So there.
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:2)
So your anecdotal evidence counters the grandparent's anecdotal evidence, which provides us with what kind of real valid and meaningful data?
Re:You, sir, are a virus. (Score:3, Insightful)
Firstly, may I point out open source isn't (supposed to be) political. Secondly, why on earth would someone install software on other computers without asking permission first?
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:4, Insightful)
I've got friends running OpenOffice.org because I popped round with a CD and installed it for them.
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:5, Insightful)
"We can't determine A+B because we don't know A."
"That's okay, we don't know B either!"
Why does that not fill me with confidence on this particular statistic?
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:4, Insightful)
In an office environment MS Office is "free" as in "no cost" to the cube dwelling end user. Most offices have all of Office installed on all the computers. Yet most cube dwellers use only one or two of the components, if that.
Also, a company that rolls out OOo or Firefox would likely only download one copy to the network, and install multiple times from that copy.
But it comes down to an obvious truth. You can't really judge by downloads alone what the count of active usage is. At best you can reasonably compare past downloads to current downloads and infer that the general trend is up or down.
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:2)
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, last x-mas I gave out copies of the open cd [sunsite.dk] to family and friends, each containing a copy of OO.o.
Perhaps I'm not alone, and that others who do this balance out the figures for downloads that don't result in market share.
There must be some margin of error, but in lieu of a comprehensive survey, download quantity gives a good representation of how widely used a software product is.
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:5, Interesting)
And I'm one of many in our dev team. The IT purchasing people makes sure you get a copy of MS office, but the majority of people are ignoring it and using software of their choice. Not that MS is the only people with skewed numbers. I think we have 3 JBuilder licences for every developer that actually uses it (Go Eclipse!).
Lack of AOL Client = Lack of Credibility (Score:2, Insightful)
The above observation is a good point since frequency of download does not equate to frequency of use.
The greatest lack of credibility for Linux going mainstream is the lack of an AOL client in Linux. If Linux really had a huge following or interest in the consumer market, then AOL would have already launched an AOL client for Linux so that millions of tech-ignor
Re:Inflated numbers don't make it credible. (Score:3, Insightful)
Its True (Score:3, Insightful)
Sun x86 based systems and they all came with OpenOffice. (I was a bit baffled why they didn't have StarOffice but such are the mysteries of life.)
Newspapers. (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, they get office documents ALL THE TIME in the mail. At the paper where my wife works, they actually have to share Office installs, because there is no budget for a mostly useless office suite for every computer.
When the Phbs in management there realize that there is a free alternative that, since they DON'T ACTUALLY NEED TO P
Re:Newspapers. (Score:2, Insightful)
Subjective. If OO.o doesn't have a feature that MSOffice has, but that feature is required to complete some task, then OO.o isn't superior to anything.
I use OO.o on my home machines because my wife's and my document creation needs aren't that complicated and it's free. We also use it at work for the same reasons.
Being "superior" depends on a lot. If I graded on startup times, OO.o would get a failing grade, for instance. On my Athlon 64 3000+, for example, I can sometime
Ummmm... (Score:2)
To be able to do that, and for free, makes it far superior. Slow startup doesn't apply because it's a seldomly used application---total time spent would be negligible on a weekly basis.
Re:Its True (Score:4, Informative)
1) Sun can divert (most of the) support to OpenOffice.org
2) Sun does not have to pay for the commercial fonts or other commercial add-ons (pdf exporter is one, I think) in Star Office and pass the cost on to you, the consumer.
It still astounds me that the linked article mentions Star Office as being free at one point, which it's not. The whole purpose of Sun making a commercial version available was to make the option more appealing to businesses - offer support as well as a set of professionally done fonts.
I for one ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Keep working on koffice guys. We really shouldn't be putting all our eggs in one basket.
Re:I for one ... (Score:2)
I do believe that's one of the arguments for open source alternatives to Microsoft.
Re:I for one ... (Score:2, Informative)
Taking a foothold (Score:5, Interesting)
However, the report notes that OpenOffice.org, an open source alternative to Microsoft Office, has secured 14% of the large enterprise office systems market, with over 16 million downloads and countless CD installations. Even with Microsoft retaining 95% overall marketshare, the fact that OpenOffice now holds almost 15% of enterprise workstations, means it's only a matter of time before John Cubicle brings OO.org home.
Disclaimer: I use OO.
Re:Taking a foothold (Score:3, Informative)
*sigh* So close..yet (Score:5, Interesting)
The format being as open as it is ( you can read, in the code, the format if all else fails ), you can do a great many things that just aren't possible with ms office.
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the question to ask would be, is the normal home or business user going to need or want to do those "great many things"?
There's a lot of stuff that may be pretty damn cool if you're a geek or hacker type, but I think you're going to have to find more relevant selling points if you want wider exposure than those limited circles.
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:5, Insightful)
The windows and mac users I know are often quite fond of downloading little extras for their favorite OS, many of which appear to be written by just random geeks who got excited when they noticed that the OS provided some API that would let them do some nifty thing.
So the "pretty damn cool" stuff for geeks can trickle down.
--Bruce Fields
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:4, Insightful)
You aren't thinking then. Imagine, you use openoffice today, but who's to say something better isn't coming out nextweek? Well, given OO's open format, you can switch fairly painlessly ( given the programmer knows his job ).
Neatness does indeed become relevant in the long run, often that's what switches people over.
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:2)
Very true, but the problem is getting people to start using OO in the first place, and more what I was commenting on
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:2, Insightful)
Ok, so that's sort of a mix of cost and morals. Just my two cents.
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:2)
For me, a veteran MS Office hater, my litmus test is compatability with MS Office formats. Unfortunately, OpenOffice does not score all A's in this dept. Perhaps the odds are stacked against them.
Here is my anecdotal evidence: A few months ago, my workplace laptop hard drive died. I always personally install everything, so after I got WinXP installed, along with various other apps I use, I came to the office suite
Re:*sigh* So close..yet (Score:2)
You don't think that's impressive at all, or more interesting to managers than cost? You have never suffered vendor lock in then.
Playing follow the leader (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Playing follow the leader (Score:2)
But which "non-bloating" features do we add? And how? Do we stick with the one function, one app mindset of Excel/Word/Powerpoint, or move toward a multifunction app/document that can be whatever we want it to be?
Is document-centric over yet?
Re:Playing follow the leader (Score:2)
Re:Playing follow the leader (Score:2, Insightful)
I tend to disagree. Office suites represent a very mature category of software. Just about any feature that is useful (and many that aren't) has already been added to these.
With software like this, all we really need to do is emulate and interoperate with what's already out there, and beat it o
Re:Playing follow the leader (Score:4, Interesting)
Regards,
Steve
Hmm I must have been sleeping... (Score:3, Insightful)
The trend is right IMO, large enterprises have the push to make it a standard. Then it will dribble down to smaller companies and finally to end users (think: employees).
I think you will find that 99% of the users are completely satisfied with the feature set of either MS Office or OpenOffice. The key issues are mindshare (Office. Oh, you mean there's some
Re:Playing follow the leader (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course, the non-Microsoft world usually already has the superior technology. Plain Latex output looks superior than any MS Word document I've seen. Microsoft's databases are a joke; the popular F/OSS databases do much better. MS's operating system is horrible. Their mail client is junk, almost any alternative is better. The brows
Re:Playing follow the leader (Score:2)
For me, that's not enough of a downside to go back to Windows (although I have gotten a Mac), but for a lot of people it is.
OpenOffice news, AbiWord, missing features (Score:5, Interesting)
While I have been reading all Word documents with OpenOffice (OO) for the past 2 years or so, I often run into Word features not supported by OO. For instance, I recently received a password-protected Word document that I could not open with OO. I had to use AbiWord (how come the report doesn't mention that!?).
Another missing feature seems to be the ability to view Word document changes when the original document has 'track changes' turned on.
I guess reports like this one help larger, less up-to-speed corporate users by opening their eyes and mind.
Re:OpenOffice news, AbiWord, missing features (Score:2, Informative)
Much prefer AbiWord, Gnumeric (Score:2)
Very interesting... (Score:2)
Really, Free/Open Source software is about choice, and as such it is really a shame that it is overlooked in articles about MS Office al
Use the money you save to hire a lawyer... (Score:4, Funny)
Application Integration Still Not There (Score:5, Insightful)
Those apps are a big part of my business -- I'd happily migrate them, but nobody's the least bit interested in the Pharmaceutical industry in moving away from MS Word and Excel.
Re:Application Integration Still Not There (Score:2, Insightful)
The fact is that people that use VBA-scripted Office apps have bought-in to a level that nobody will be able to help them leave. Hell, even Microsoft probably will have to scramble away from those old VBA apps now that
So, in a rel
Re:Application Integration Still Not There (Score:2)
Supporting VBA is just not going to happen. OO.org is getting Python scripting though, which should open up the OO.org to a lot more scrpting and extension than is currently the case. In the end people upgrade systems and have to replace outdated custom code, and that'
Cross platform Opensource Music apps (Score:5, Informative)
Best Quote (Score:4, Interesting)
To think I would live to see that line. What an age we live in. And to think that there are now people posting on /. who will argue about it. Where's my time machine when I need it?
;)
The only Linux desktop apps? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't mean to bait flame here, but aside from OpenOffice and StarOffice (which essentially do the same thing), what other good, solid business apps are available for Linux? All I ever hear about are the same two.
Re:The only Linux desktop apps? (Score:2)
Abiword [abisource.com], Gnumeric [gnome.org], and Evolution [novell.com] are also cited a lot, these are GNOME packages. Then there is KOffice [koffice.org], part of KDE, which few seem to use or talk about, but which does seem solid and extensive.
Re:The only Linux desktop apps? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The only Linux desktop apps? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? You could be charitable and say it's because they're the best, or that they're the only two with major commercial companies behind them, or you could say it's because they run on Windows. Stuff that runs on Linux doesn't mean jack, because in the big wide world, linux doesn't mean jack.
Look at all the cool extensions, themes and stuff for the Mozi
Corporate features (Score:5, Interesting)
- some sort of central server type connector that allows multiple users to work on the same document at the same time and the result mirrored to all users.
1 is required , 2 would be a selling point
Re:Corporate features (Score:2, Interesting)
It works basically like diff. You and timmy take DocA.sxw and make a copy for each, you do you changes, timmy does his, timmy emails you his doc, you merge it with oo.o merge capabilities.
Since oo.o is plain XML, this is practically a diff->merge->patch procedure as we do in cvs or rcs.
What else do you want?
.. blah blah DESKTOP blah blah .. (Score:5, Insightful)
The real realm for application prosperity, *especially since Linux has a lead above and beyond WIN32*, is Embedded.
Yes, thats right folks, give up the Desktop War of Straw. Computers getting smaller, and smaller, and smaller
{If you've got the temerity for bold app design, I might posit, oh and some cheap host-hardware to throw in that $400 software/hardware combo you're selling to your customer
In short: Desktop is Dead. The New In is Embedded.
Re:.. blah blah DESKTOP blah blah .. (Score:2, Interesting)
Hrm. I think it's got a few years left in it, my friend. Giving up now to fight a future battle only puts you ahead of a curve that's not yet ready to be taken. Ask Apple - they've done a good job of this many times in the past, only to have others eat their lunch (Newton, QuickTake being a prime example).
Re:.. blah blah DESKTOP blah blah .. (Score:2, Interesting)
I didn't say its going away. As far as 'app traction' goes, its dead right now; the Big Thing is Embedded. You know
Re:.. blah blah DESKTOP blah blah .. (Score:2)
but I'll wager that ten years from now, when we're all using handhelds wirelessly connected to the dumb-terminal monitor/mouse/keyboard we're sitting at we'll *still* be using word processors and whatnot.
What I mean is that the usage won't change, just the form factor.
Just because it's embedded has absolutely no relevance to what we're doing. Word processing or design or programming or CAD or music editing or non-linear video editing or just
Re:.. blah blah DESKTOP blah blah .. (Score:2)
But how do I do that? Well, I write thousands and thousands of lines of C++, Objective-C and little bits of python. But do I conjure all that code from my ass? No, I make C++ "documents", type for a while, and let the compiler sort it all out.
My point here, mr smarty, is that it all boils down to documents, you know, little files with text or binary inf
OOS Office Suites need more exposure... (Score:3, Informative)
Case in point - our local high school has a class that requires a PowerPoint presentation as part of the class. The teacher insisted on PP and was a bit taken back when I suggested to one parent that OO has a perfectly good presentation package and doesn't require shelling out the $$$ for MSOffice; and you can test for compatibility with MS's free PP viewer as well.
Despite living an affluent district, many parent's can't afford the $125 or so for a student edition MS Office and may not even have a PC that can run it, so OO is a very viable alternative.
Re:OOS Office Suites need more exposure... (Score:2)
Anyway, Office 2K still costs money, if MS still sells it. And if they don't still sell it, well, pirating Office 2K isn't much different than pirating Office XP.
LDS church now using Open Office (Score:4, Informative)
Boy you really spin your facts, don't you? (Score:2)
I suspect this is the only post I will have made to slashdot that will be in agreement w
No spin zone. (Score:5, Interesting)
The interesting this about these numbers is that no one can put a spin on this. For instance, if these numbers were about 'number of PCs sold with Linux pre-loaded', you would have claims that this was only being done to circumvent the MS tax, and most people subsequently loaded the PC with pirated Windows OS.
You just cannot make those claims in this case.
Re:No spin zone. (Score:3, Interesting)
The interesting this about these numbers is that no one can put a spin on this."
But as an earlier post mentioned, those kinds of metrics are totally invalid. The 16M downloads could span multiple versions by the same person, and how does one measure "countless" CD installations?
So how could you put spin on these figures, or make invalid claims based on them, when the figures themselves are absolute bunk?
Re:No spin zone. (Score:3, Interesting)
(1) Downloads are meaningless. Just look at a few of the comments attached to this story - people downloading it many multiple times and often uninstalling it. I know that I personally am responsible for at least 15 Mozilla downloads, and 2 OpenOffice downloads, and while I finally do use Mozilla I haven't used OpenOffice.
(2) "Countless CD installations" does not imply there's necessarily a lot. It simply implies we can't count them.
(3) 14% of the large enterprise office systems as counted ho
Re:No spin zone. (Score:2)
I agree, the number of downloads by themselves do not have much relevance. What I do think is relevant is that there seems to be an upward trend in the number of downloads, and that to me
Re:No spin zone. (Score:2)
Re:No spin zone. (Score:2)
Of course you can.
number of downloads != number of users. It doesn't matter if something has been downloaded a billion times, if everyone deletes it within five minutes of installation. And what about the OpenOffice CD I made for my friend with a 56k connection and no patience to download it? Or what about the people who get it from corporate intranet sites? Or when I download it right before my hard drive crashes, and I
The new Insurgence (Score:3, Interesting)
Since all of these work on Windows, these people can learn on their existing WinOS, and switch to Linux when the 'upgrade to XP or else' is forced on them.
Any Small OS (Score:2, Interesting)
No
So any options?
Oh yeah iam a windows user.wanting to try linux.or perhaps a new OS.
Re:Any Small OS (Score:2, Insightful)
In the mean time, do you have any contacts that may have access to a high speed connection (students, employees, family, friends). You could give them instuctions on what to download then they could burn it for you.
Alternatively, if you email your address to
andyfaeglasgow@gmail.com
I would be happy to mail you whichever distribution you want.
Andy
Re:Any Small OS (Score:2)
Or, with the help of Google [google.com], you could have found this [frozentech.com] page, which is a list of live CDs. But don't expect a complete desktop OS in under 10 MB. Even the basic font files take about half of that.
Re:Any Small OS (Score:2)
While not 10MB, Damn Small Linux [damnsmalllinux.org] at 50MB would be doable overnight.
Alternatively, you could try ordering a full set of Fedora [easylinuxcds.com], Mandrake [easylinuxcds.com], etc. CDs for under $5US, which is pretty minimal. Certainly within a budget for trying out a new OS.
professional bias? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:professional bias? (Score:2)
How can opensource apps with their underdog persona get around this?
Who cares about these people? Look, there are always going to be people who make bad decisions. It is not important that everybody use FOSS; it's only important that they have the option to do so.Re:professional bias? (Score:2)
I can go "wow" when looking at office - or Photoshop - alternatives, because it's of course an impressive amount of work. But I can't compare those attempts with the real thing.
I don't agree at all with the notion that OOo is a good replacement for MSOffice. It's however a good alternative when you no longer want to - or have to - pay the MS tax.
Re:professional bias? (Score:2)
One small step at a time...
Thoughts from an outsider... (Score:5, Interesting)
I've made the switch to Firefox completely - both at work and at my home. Why? It looks really nice, functions well, and was easy to get my wife switched over to as it functions pretty similar to tools she already knows. Hell, I've even switched some of my less technical friends over, and they love it. I didn't do this with Mozilla though - it just seemed "too much".
Now, on the other side, I finally broke down and installed OpenOffice to give it a shot. I thought, will this be the Office breaker I've heard about? No way. I can't stand it - it's clearly designed by technical people and doesn't have the slightest bit of usability in mind. Bash MSFT all you want, but they spend a fair amount of cash on usability, and unfortunately flattery is the best form of competition right now (think about how early versions of Word had the ability to emulate certain WordPerfect functions).
Right when I installed OO I went to open the word processor. It's actually called a Text Editor. WHAT? Notepad and nano are text editors, this is supposed to a Word Processing suite! Further, the interface looks like Office 95 - honestly, people are visual and the interface makes me feel like I should be sitting in a tiny bricked wall office with no windows and a flickering flourescent light overhead. Sure, some may like that, but it's not most people. Finally, the product seems slow on WinXP - yes, it may be my setup, and your mileage my vary, but Word is snappy on my box so it doesn't matter.
The short short is that products like Firefox and MythTV can make me a convert. They're well designed, look nice, have a lot of functionality, but also keep the end user in mind. OO.org has a long way to go thought before I'd recommend it to one single person as a Microsoft alternative.
Re:Thoughts from an outsider... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Thoughts from an outsider... (Score:2)
It isn't. OpenOffice is derived from StarOffice, made by StarDivision Inc (now acquired by Sun). In other words: OpenOffice is derived from a commercial product! *Shock*, *shrudder*, commercial products are always designed by tons of usability experts and can never, ever be unusable junk like open source software, right? Right?
If anything, your statement just proofed that commercial software can be just as
What is still needed... (Score:5, Informative)
[1] decent == Can track resources, tasks, costs; can perform some sort of resource auto-leveling; can report resource conflicts; supports GANTT charts; has a relatively easy-to-use UI.
Re:What is still needed... (Score:2, Informative)
Imendio Planner [imendio.com]
Re:What is still needed... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What is still needed... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.dotproject.net/ [dotproject.net]
Bloatware (Score:4, Insightful)
I really prefer the approach taken by AbiWord. They made a good word processor, without the bloat. It continues to be light and snappy now that they have added support for various features and formats.
Now, AbiWord is only a word processor, but with other projects providing spreadsheets, databases, etc. you can still get all the pieces of a complete office suite. Add some coordination and cooperation and you can get everything nicely integrated and uniform, too. Or use KOffice; a bit lacking in features last I sampled it, but well integrated and relatively light.
It's not that I don't recognize the hard work that went into OOo, it's just that I think the development approach is fundamentally flawed. Same goes for Mozilla, BTW. First they made a huge effort to build the Mozilla application suite, now Firefox and Thunderbird are working hard to strip off the bloat. KISS.
Exchange (Score:3, Informative)
If there were Outlook replacements and Exchange replacements, then corporations could swap out one or the other rather than having to jump immediately into the water.
Especially more so in the fact that if you swap out Exchange and keep Outlook 2000, then your IT department will have saved a bucket-load of cash end whilst the end-users will never know the difference and never need retraining.
Re:Exchange (Score:2)
Reminder: Do not pirate MS Office. (Score:5, Interesting)
As a teenager I gave countless copied CDs with Office or Windows on it and it only helped MS. Now I do the opposite. I have Slackware installed (might try some gentoo or Unbuntu soon though) and use solely OpenOffice and when people come to me for help or for software I point them to FOSS alternatives. Open Office works great with it's own format. It just has problems with closed formats. I think being polite and asking people to send me thing in RTF is a good way to save 300$+ on my OS/Office suite.
Re:Reminder: Do not pirate MS Office. (Score:2)
Their reasoning is similar to "People in my country have the freedom to kill other people. Your country's law restricts people from killing others. Therebefore my country is freeer than yours."
My experience (Score:5, Interesting)
They are not switchers, they continue to use Office (MS Office 97 in some cases), but keep OpenOffice for this feature when they need another PDF.
getting my Dad OO (Score:3, Interesting)
However, I use MS Office V.x for Mac over OpenOffice. Why? I find that it works better than on windows and I actually like using it over other applications. But mainly PowerPoint. Keynotes is nice and I could survive with Apple Works for my word processing and spreadsheet needs, but still I find PowerPoint for Mac extremely hard to beat. Same with Word for Mac. It just seems cleaner than Word XP or 2000. Excel I don't use often enough really to go one way or the other.
As indigo montoya might say ... (Score:3, Interesting)
If some organization was actually validating these products it would be great. I tried OpenOffice on one of my real-world MS Word documents awhile back and it crashed (no I don't remember which version). I imagine it works fine for simple documents, but then again, so does WordPad.
I still think that the goal of MS Office file compatibility is a losing one. They should try to produce a better product instead. Anyone who believes MS Office file compatibility is critical, isn't going to risk getting fired to save a few dollars.
On the other hand, many users don't need to edit old documents or share them, and those are the users to target with a superior product IMHO.
Re:Been there... (Score:2, Informative)
"RH Linux" hasn't been around for a couple years (I can only assume you're running RH8 or 9, forgive me if it's RHEL). A fresh install of Fedora would alleviate all of your problems, trust me. I've been running various linux distributions (Slackware, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora) over the last six years, and I've never run into any of the problems you describe.
It would appear that the Firefox people aren't leaving th
Re:I'm a big fan of OSS, but... (Score:2)
I see this argument a lot, and frankly I don't understand it. I just fired up OO.org on my Athlon XP (2800) and it took 12 seconds to completely load. This is on a laptop.
OO.org 1.0 perhaps was slower, but 1.1 is just fine.
Re:I'm a big fan of OSS, but... (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft Word XP: 9 seconds.
OpenOffice.org 1.1.1: 24 seconds. It took 9 seconds just to see the splash screen. (However, I don't keep the 'quicklaunch' systemtray application running, so with that it might be a bit faster.)
That's an eternity in computer-use-time.
Re:I'm a big fan of OSS, but... (Score:3, Informative)