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Linux Desktop Guide 461

Posted by michael from the man-man dept.
codergeek42 writes "The International Open-Source Network has created a desktop manual aimed at end-users with little or no prior knowledge of PCs. This manual goes through using The Fedora Project to do things from file-management to using the internet (as in browsing the WWW and using email), how to use the OpenOffice.org office suite, and even a basic intro to using the shell. This is definitely a step in the right direction for GNU/Linux, and the Free Software and Open-Source Software movements. And the cool part is that the entire thing is under an attributions-required OSI-approved Creative Common license, and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) or PDF formats."
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Linux Desktop Guide

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  • Uh... Fedora? (Score:5, Funny)

    by stinky wizzleteats ( 552063 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:02PM (#10040959) Homepage Journal
    For a first-time user?

    Hey, this is great, you've got your first Linux system. Whoops! Time's up. If you want security updates, it's time to wipe and reinstall!

    • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:12PM (#10041034)
      Hey, this is great, you've got your first Linux system. Whoops! Time's up. If you want security updates, it's time to wipe and reinstall!

      It's on purpose, so people migrating from Windows get a familiar user experience and feel at home.

    • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:5, Informative)

      by thephotoman ( 791574 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:15PM (#10041054) Journal
      That's why they have a version of the APT-Get tool for Fedora. And of course, there's always Yum, but that tends to be a bit behind the times.
      • yeah, i remember the first time I used windows and I had to install apt-win so that I could get security updates for my machine. It was such a pain to use cmd.exe and then edit.exe to edit my apt-win repositories.

        If you have to install stuff that's no in the base distro (which AFAIK apt-rpm isn't) you're already asking more from a first-time linux user than you're likely to get. That sucks, but that's the way it is.

    • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Skeezix ( 14602 )
      Between the fedora project and the Fedora Legacy Project [fedoralegacy.org] you get something like 2.5 - 3 years of supported updates. And at any point you can do an upgrade, you do not have to "wipe and reinstall."
    • Each release should be supported for about 1.5 years, and possibly longer. Is that such a short time for non-production systems?

      • from my understanding... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by zogger ( 617870 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:41PM (#10041217) Homepage Journal
        ...Fedora is designed to be a more or less bleeding edge perpetual beta, even though they call it a release. Sorta like moz in a way. Call it a stable~beta, freebie community/developer/enthusiast edition. If you want "more" stable and more and longer support, you go to the redhat pay per view version, or stick to legacy Rh 7-9 as long as that lasts.

        With that said I like fedora, it works fine,seems perfectly stable to me with only a few minor hiccups, no showe stoppers, and twice a year to plop a few Cds in isn't hard, and updating even on my old coal burner system and rural slow dialup is not hard either.

        Basically, you can't have it both ways at the same time. If you want new and improved, well, the developers ain't lazy and come out with new and improved all the time, so there ya go. If you want to run a distro for a long time, then just run a distro for a long time. If it's gotta-haveit security updates, you might have to compile it in. thems the breaks. You can't have a 5 ton truck that gets 50 MPG, just ain't happening, some times ya got to make some compromises. I bet there's folks here still running RH6 probably, and similar vintage older various distros/OSes. Heck, I run new linux but I still crank up some old macs running 7.x and 8.x sometimes, and still got a laptop with win 95 on it that I (and who knows who else, heh) fool with occassionaly just for sport.

    • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Matt Perry ( 793115 ) <[moc.oohay] [ta] [45ttam.yrrep]> on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:23PM (#10041106)
      I have a serious question then. What's a good, easy to use Linux distribution for first time computer users that also will have security updates for many (3+) years to come? I know there are a lot of different Linux distros out there but few of them state how long they'll be supported before an upgrade is needed. I use Debian for my computer needs but I wouldn't consider it to be an easy to use and administer system for someone who's new to computers. It definitely requires some experience to set up. Fedora is nice but between Red Hat's support and Fedora Legacy, updates will only last about a year and a half to two years before one has to upgrade.

      Any recommendations?

      • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Informative)

        by Duke Machesne ( 453316 )
        Upgrading to the latest version of Fedora is as hard as copying and pasting from the Red Hat website into the yum.conf file, then typing "yum upgrade". Most people will be able, after 1 1/2 to 2 years of using a system, to copy and paste into a text file.

        As far as I'm concerned Fedora is the best newbie distro available. SUSE and Mandrake are both weirder and more obtuse, in my experience, than Debian; they both have glaring obnoxiousness that is completely inexcusable for distros aiming at the markets the

        • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by wizrd_nml ( 661928 )
          Upgrading to the latest version of Fedora is as hard as copying and pasting from the Red Hat website into the yum.conf file, then typing "yum upgrade". Most people will be able, after 1 1/2 to 2 years of using a system, to copy and paste into a text file.

          I see this kind of comment all the time and I just have to say something: if you know what needs to be done to get something working, then actually doing it is usually a piece of cake. It's figuring out what the problem is or what the best approach to co

          • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Insightful)

            by FictionPimp ( 712802 )
            I actually have a similar exp on the issue. I've been using linux as a web server, and a firewall, but never as a desktop. I recently was given a p4 3ghz processor from a friend who's computer "died". After troublehsooting the box he gave me I found out it was a bad motherboard. I ordered a new board and case (I hated his case). I then put together a box with these specs:

            p4c 3ghz processor 800mhz fsb intel D865PERL motherboard (onboard lan, sound) Gainward Nvidia FX5900XT 512meg kingston value ram. 160gig

      • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Informative)

        by helarno ( 34086 )
        If you set up your YUM (or apt-get if you install apt-get on Fedora) configuration properly, you can upgrade from Fedora Core 1 to 2 to 3 (whenever it comes out) automatically. No need to download, burn and do a massive upgrade from CD.

      • My suggestion (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Zork the Almighty ( 599344 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:15PM (#10041398) Journal
        Knoppix. Include directions for installing to hard drive and setting up Debian. It still needs a bit more polish, but it could be killer.

        • Re:My suggestion (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Zork the Almighty ( 599344 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:44PM (#10041509) Journal
          I think I'll elaborate on this a bit more. No computer newbie these days should be using an install cd and rolling the dice. With Knoppix you can see approximately how well everything will work beforehand. This is the be-all end-all of software installation!

          I haven't tried Knoppix recently, so I don't know what has been done, but this is the ideal. We want a polished install program, which can handle partitioning with an icon on the desktop "Install to Hard Drive". Debian repositories should be automatically queried, and security updates downloaded automatically. It needs an "update software" program which shows a list of programs (not libraries), and installs necessary updates. Then it needs a "new software browser" which can browse and search the library of available programs (not libraries) and can install them. This would be it.
      • The desktop-specialist distros, such as Mepis, Lycoris, etc. are based on Debian. As Debian isn't about to go away any time soon, and these distros use Debian's package repository, I'd suggest they're probably a good fit.

        The only thing I'd be concerned about is the impacts of doing an apt-get dist-upgrade on one of these distros, as it could give some wholesale UI changes when KDE's version rolls. Has anyone done this?

      • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:5, Informative)

        by bit01 ( 644603 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:35PM (#10041468)

        Try SuSE 9.1. Almost all point and click. Uses RPM under the hood but installing security/recommended updates online is easy:

        1. Click System/YaST on the main menu. YaST is the equivalent of the MSWindows ControlPanel.
        2. Enter the root password and click OK.
        3. Click Software/Online Update.
        4. Click Next to accept the default source site.
        5. Click Accept to accept the default set of patches.
        6. Click Finish to finalise patch installation. I've seen one patch that required a reboot.

        9.1 was released recently so updates should be available for a while yet.

        I've no connection to SuSE other than as a satisfied user.

        ---

        It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
        It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
        Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.

      • What? no one mentioned Mandrake yet... (Score:5, Informative)

        by Mad_Rain ( 674268 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:58PM (#10041566) Journal
        Seriously. Mandrake [mandrakelinux.com] is easy to install, has excellent hardware detection, and passed the "my-non-techie-mother can use it" test. Once you set up the urpmi system (a lot like apt-get for Debian, and has a graphical front-end for it as well), updating and upgrading is straightforward and simple.

      • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:5, Informative)

        by stinky wizzleteats ( 552063 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:00PM (#10041574) Homepage Journal
        I have a serious question then. What's a good, easy to use Linux distribution for first time computer users that also will have security updates for many (3+) years to come?

        There isn't a complete answer, but for me and my customers/business associates/employer, etc., a good answer has been Mandrake. It's non-US, so it's free to include such contraband items as mp3 decoders, and it has none of the bluecurve foolishness. Urpmi, while not nearly as elegant as apt-get, has the singular and very important benefit of resolving dependencies with supplemental packages in the Mandrake default install. This is something apt-get can't promise , at least without some tweaking (AFAIK, if I'm wrong, let me know), and it unlocks a much wider set of options to the new user than anything Fedora can do.

        Admittedly, Mandrake 10 is a train wreck at the moment (stability, etc.), but 9.2 is a good platform for now, and is well supported. I have confidence that Mandrake will work out the problems with 10 (point release and all that), but I also had confidence in Red Hat, and we all see what that got me. My next stop on the Linux train will be Gentoo, if it comes to that.

        • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Brian Blessed ( 258910 )
          My next stop on the Linux train will be Gentoo, if it comes to that.

          IMHO you should try this anyway. I'd been using Mandrake for years when I tried Gentoo earlier this year, and it isn't hard to use for people that know what they're doing on Mandrake.

          I have seen benefits that I didn't appreciate before I tried it, such as the design of the Portage system which means that each Gentoo install contains all of the build information for the whole distribution, and is simple to extend yourself.

          Actually, it wo

      • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Apreche ( 239272 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:22PM (#10041671) Homepage Journal
        Do what I do for my grandma. I made her a "custom" desktop that has very few very large icons to launch the programs she uses. The pc is setup with gdm and autologin. It's gentoo. Sure, my grandma has no idea what's going on. But I have some cron jobs in there doing routine maintenance and e-mailing me. And on occasion I ssh in and do a little emerge -uDva world.

        Linux is designed as a multi-user system. The best way for it to work is via the client server model. You want someone who knows what they are doing to maintain the system itself, because it will never be easy. Then life for the clients is a dream come true. Thunderbird, Firefox, OpenOffice, Gaim, rox, xmms, giftui and gimp. Maybe sunbird in the future. 99% of people can get by on just that and be happy forever. Especially since its incredibly fast, feature rich, good looking, stable and secure.

      • Re:Uh... Fedora? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by discogravy ( 455376 )
        If someone knowledgeable is going to install it, I'd suggest debian sarge (or stable with sarge updates for a lot of apps) with an automated cron script to update stuff.

        If the user is going to install it themselves, I'd suggest Libranet. It's a customized debian that has a lot of user-friendly stuff put in it (easy setup for PPP, Flash, fonts, etc). The updates are debian so you know they're gonna be around in a 3 years -- although note that libranet encourages users to use libranet repositories, since they

  • Clever (Score:4, Funny)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:05PM (#10040981)
    the entire thing is [...] available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) or PDF formats.

    That's one way of ensuring the user has broadband and a large enough hard drive...

  • Fedora ??!!?? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jrl87 ( 669651 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:05PM (#10040985)
    Wouldn't something like Mandrake or SuSe be better for beginners?

    • Re:Fedora ??!!?? (Score:4, Informative)

      by bach37 ( 602070 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:22PM (#10041099)
      I agree- Mandrake would have my vote: mp3 and DVD playback work out-of-the-box.
      Suse 9.1- no DVD playback o-o-t-b; Fedora - no mp3 playback, o-o-t-b.

    • absolutely (Score:4, Insightful)

      by HunkaHunkaBurninLove ( 411198 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:24PM (#10041111)
      Mandrake and Suse would be better for ANY desktop user, and certainly better for the IOSN to promote since both distributions have long-term commitments to the desktop.

      • Re:absolutely (Score:5, Insightful)

        by OmniVector ( 569062 ) <se e m y h o mepage> on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:37PM (#10041729) Homepage
        i disagree. fedora is much further along in providing a cohesive experience thanks to bluecurve. on top of that, fedora uses anaconda for it's installer -- this is lightyears ahead of anything mandrake has to offer in polish, and somehow i doubt suse's is much better than mandrakes. suse is a kde distro. enough said. kde is not as good for usability as gnome, and i think this is integral for beginning desktop linux users. fedora is backed by the biggest linux company around, redhat. it's going to have a brighter future if you ask me than suse and mandrake.

    • Re:Fedora ??!!?? (Score:5, Informative)

      by pphrdza ( 635063 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:33PM (#10041162)
      Though slashdotted, if you actually get through you'd see
      Linux has many distributions and sometimes the programs or tools used to perform a certain function can vary from distribution to distribution. This guide tries to be as generic as possible in the description of the features and functionalities. However, in some cases, especially some of the GUI desktop configuration tools, there is no really independent generic tool that can be used and each distribution has its own tool. In such cases, we have tried to illustrate their usage using Fedora Linux
      This guide was written on a Fedora Linux system and as such many of the screen shots reflect this. However, this should not be construed as an endorsement of this distribution of Linux over the others on the part of the authors.
      Fedora's desktop is used for screenshots and examples, but it isn't a guide to Fedora.

    • Re:Fedora ??!!?? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Janek Kozicki ( 722688 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:37PM (#10041191) Journal
      Since license allows it - anyone interested can copy this manual and make slight changes so it will describe a distribution of his choice (like debian or gentoo)

      After appearance of this manual I bet we should expect its clones appearing like mushrooms after a rain.

    • Re:Fedora ??!!?? (Score:5, Informative)

      by helarno ( 34086 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:02PM (#10041323) Homepage
      The poster didn't bother to mention that the IOSN is a project of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) [undp.org], which is focused on developing countries. They tend to deal with really poor countries with very limited resources. They are not focused on Joe-consumer in a rich, developed country.

      Under these conditions, you want a distribution that can be freely downloaded, burned and redistributed without restrictions or problems. Fedora fits that bill and is targeted towards the desktop.

    • Re:Fedora ??!!?? (Score:3, Informative)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 )
      "Wouldn't something like Mandrake or SuSe be better for beginners?"

      I'd nominate Knoppix. Burn a disc, pop it in, reboot, read a friendly written manual to play with it. I've never thought of Linux as easy to use, but Knoppix seriously turned my head. Nice pleasant combination of auto-detecting everything and having the right stuff pre-installed.

  • right direction (Score:5, Insightful)

    by celeritas_2 ( 750289 ) <ranmyaku@gmail.com> on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:05PM (#10040990)
    I think this is a step in the right direction. Now i'm not for dumbing down linux, but I think there should be a user-friendly (ouch) option on some of the major distrobustions so that people who know little about and will not learn about computer systems will use linux. If more common people use linux than more governments and institutions will, meaning more donations for projects, more press, and better defence against the Microsofts and SCOs out there.

    • Re:right direction (Score:5, Informative)

      by Mr2cents ( 323101 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:16PM (#10041063)
      When I was leaning Linux, my friends and the HOWTO's were the greatest help to me. A nice document with a first time walk-through could be nice, if you're missing the linux-savvy friends.

      Anyway the first thing you should learn, just in case, is how to quit vi. (it's :q!)

      • Never forget IRC (Score:4, Informative)

        by Azureflare ( 645778 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:39PM (#10041209)
        IRC is where I go for most of my needs that aren't met by google et. al... On there you can find some real gems, real experts in the fields (also total wannabe-linux-gurus)... But all in all my experience has been great. irc.freenode.net is a great place, with some quality channels.

        Happy mandrake 10 user here. It just makes my life easier. Finally without a windows partition!!

        I've been using mandrake for 2 years now... before that I was a windows fanboy.

        Anyways... linux has been great. I am able to do everything I need to for my job in linux (CXOffice has been wonderful).

  • Dear /. CrapMerchants... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:10PM (#10041020)
    ...please invest in a link checker. You can't be trusted to get them right.

    http://www.openoffce.org/

    http://www.openoffice.org/
    • You don't understand, do you? OffCE is a well-wknown FSF-sponsored anti-Microsoft site qhich provides detailed intsructions on how to get Off CE. Open Off CE is Eric Raymond's attempt at an Open Source, and therefore freer, form of OffCE.Org.

  • Is manual a solution? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by usefool ( 798755 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:11PM (#10041025) Homepage
    I wonder if manual/guide is the solution to the 'problems' in desktop territory.

    Will grandma get such guide and follow through step by step command lines to achieve something?

    • Re:Is manual a solution? (Score:4, Funny)

      by 0racle ( 667029 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:15PM (#10041059)
      I don't think users know how to read manuals.

      • Re:Is manual a solution? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Zorilla ( 791636 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:27PM (#10041131)
        Funny you should mention that. At times, I feel I need a manual just to figure out how to read man pages. Some are ok, but for example, man rpm, is a nightmare.

        • Re:Is manual a solution? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by 0racle ( 667029 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:00PM (#10041315)
          That actually isn't what I was getting at, personally I feel that an incomprehensable manual is a failure on the part of the writer. However, what I was refering to is the apperent 'alergy' to manuals that most users display. They refuse to take any responsibility themselves to learn anything and if it doesn't work they blame everyone but themselves. Before you start whining about useability and how you shouldn't have to learn anything to use a computer, do you realize how complex a computer system is? Your microwave came with a manual to set the clock, I bet you read it, so did your TV, VCR and DVD player. Those are childs toys compared to the beige box on your desk, but apperently everyone believes they should be easier to use.

          I am really missing konquerors spell check right now.
          • While the computer is of course more complex as a microwave, it also already comes with everything needed to help and guide the user. A microwave doesn't have a html-browser, a wizard tool, a 1024x768 full color display and similar stuff that can guide the user and display help exactly when and where its needed, that why a microwave needs a seperate manual.

            The only form of a seperate manual that a good OS should really need is one that guides the user through the very first steps of the installation and on
        • man, rpm is a nightmare.

          Hooray puns!
    • Why not? My mom took a class at the senior center on Windows, bought a Reader's Digest book on Windows, and a couple of different DVDs on how to use Windows. Of course, none of it did a bit of good, but she still attempted to aquire the necessary knowledge.

  • Good step. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by keiferb ( 267153 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:11PM (#10041033) Homepage
    This kind of stuff is a great step in the right direction, but lots of people in the target demographic would still prefer a dead-tree version. I'd really like to see a couple of those big, glossy, step-by-step picture books put out for Linux. There's a bunch for Win/Mac already, so I'm sure it'll just be a matter of time.

    • Re:Good step. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Reorax ( 629666 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:21PM (#10041096)
      The "___ for Dummies" line probably has something that's pretty good. I have their "Redhat For Dummies" book and it did a good job of leading me through installation and use before I knew anything about Linux. This was for Red Hat 8, but they probably have something more updated by now.

  • Nice, but they've got it all wrong... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by One Childish N00b ( 780549 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:22PM (#10041097) Homepage
    Does Linux have top home marketshare? No.
    Does Linux have top education marketshare? No.
    So is the chance that people's very first system will be Linux high? No.
    Does this make this whole thing pointless? Yes.

    What do stores sell a new user if they don't know what they want? Windows. Therefore they will learn Windows. The only way they'll find out about this report is if they go online and find it, and then if they're not a techy user, they're not going to want to install something like an OS for themselves. This is a pointless exercise to make the open-source community hope for an influx of new users, when the fact is while stores still sell Windows machines, while mummy and daddy still have a Windows machine in the living room, while little Johnny's school uses Windows machines... Microsoft's monopoly is self-sustaining.

    It doesn't matter how many guides you put out for Linux aimed at the 'new user', there are no users who've never used a computer before who are likely to run Linux - they're going to run what the store tells them to run, or what the computers in their house already run - Windows. The monopoly self-sustains. Unless all us nerds train our kids from birth to use *nix, and they all train their kids, etc, etc, etc, only Microsoft can destroy their own monopoly. Our only hope is that a catastrophic worm makes it impossible to ever use Windows, as other than that, reguardless of how many 'Linux for Total Newbies' PDFs people put out, those 'total newbies' will be reading it from a Windows machine, and the vast majority of them will be too scared or too stubborn to switch.

    This will probably get modded troll, but that's the way it is - this is the wrong approach to be taking, and for all the people us few thousand nerds convert (very few), there's going to be a few thousand more kids growing up using mummy and daddy's Windows machine, perpetuating Microsoft's mindshare. We need to find a way to deal with it, and this is not it.

    • Baby steps (Score:4, Insightful)

      by celeritas_2 ( 750289 ) <ranmyaku@gmail.com> on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:42PM (#10041220)
      You're right, microsoft has tons of it apple has a few pounds of it, and linux has about 2 grams of it. It is popularity among the antil33t computer users. Linux is hard to setup the first time, especially if you're a new user, hell, windows instalation scares people too. What this project is trying to do is make linux available to users who are a little less experienced and less willing to spend the days and weeks necessary to understand linux. Not intended for six year olds or cookie baking grandmas, this documentation will help people with just a little of the hacker gene get into linux.

      Plus, if it fails, it's the writer's time that is wasted, not yours.

    • Actually, now that Wal-Mart is selling Linux systems, a newbie running linux (albeit a shitty distro) is not unthinkable.

    • Re:Nice, but they've got it all wrong... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by mcrbids ( 148650 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:11PM (#10041385) Journal
      Microsoft's monopoly is self-sustaining.

      I almost agree with you. The point, though, is that Microsoft is being squeezed by Linux in very real ways.

      There's a tremendous amount of inertia keeping Microsoft going, but in every real sense - marketshare, mindshare, install base, ease of use, as examples - Linux is gaining against both the other Unixes and Microsoft.

      The Dell laptop on which I type this is running Fedora Linux - and with only the exception of the integrated wireless card, does an excellent job. (I use a D-Link PCMCIA to use wireless - cost me $9)

      We don't have to "cru5h M$" to succeed. As a consumer force, Linux only needs to be a "viable alternative" to keep the Microsoft abuses in check.

      Of course, Microsoft has long ridden on the coat-tails of "cheaper", but that's stopped now, and Microsoft is having to change their tune every 3 weeks...
    • By this logic, the GNU project never should have been started at all and neither should have the Linux kernel. Even by the narrow dictates of popularity, in order to make something popular one first must make something. This particular work is licensed to allow sharing, improvement, and commercial distribution which strikes me as being remarkably generous. We can't afford to believe that we must sequence our steps of progress because if we do we'll never accomplish anything.

      I think it would be far healthier to continue to let a thousand flowers bloom.

    • No you do. (Score:4, Informative)

      by nlinecomputers ( 602059 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:45PM (#10041510)
      I haven't read the PDF yet but I suspect its not directly aimed at Joe User. It is aimed at US(Linux user ITs or geeks) to GIVE to Joe User with a copy of Fedora or Mandrake. Yes you are correct that the stores will sell you windows but the end users are getting frustrated with Windows enough to be looking for solutions. This is one. They aren't likely to know about Linux but they may know about you. So get off your duff and show them the better way.

    • Re:Nice, but they've got it all wrong... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by naelurec ( 552384 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:04PM (#10041594) Homepage
      Your right. Lets pack up our things and go home.

      The problem I see is your posting this to slashdot. On here, I would be VERY surprised if 85%+ of the people on here DID NOT start (or have a significant portion of their computing life) on Microsoft DOS/Windows/etc.

      So you look at these people, who now run either exclusive a *nix system, hybrid setup or at least have a certain sustainable interest in the FOSS movement.

      I tried out Slackware Linux back in 1996ish and was turned off fairly quickly since it just seemed like too much work, revisited it a few years later, thought the same thing. It wasn't until I was trying to learn ASP when I came across PHP (thanks to the recommendation by a webmaster) and coupled with a step-by-step how-to about PHP/MySQL was able to finally achieve my goal.

      At that point in time, I thought the world of PHP. Not only was I able to grok it MUCH faster than ASP/MSSQL development but it was totally absolutely 100% free. The fact it was a FOSS/GPL product sparked my interest enough to finally buckle down and start truly learning Linux.

      No friends knew Linux, my school didn't have Linux, my workplace didn't have Linux. However, I was drawn by it. I'm guessing there are a LOT of others out there that will find value in Linux but simply do not know about it.

      Perhaps this is just what I need as an advocate of Linux and FOSS. If someone has interest, I can reference them to this guide to *hopefully* get them up to speed and using Linux much faster than I ended up "taking up linux".

      Perhaps people who have never used a computer *MIGHT* be using Linux as their first system. Linux makes a GREAT public terminal. Linux is GREAT for computer labs at schools and coupled with a Knoppix CD, Students can use the same exact programs from school at their homes, at friends houses and so forth. It truly does make sense for a lot of applications where individuals are exposed to computers. Perhaps its time for guides to be available for these users -- nothing that hammers on the command line or installation but rather applications, interface usage and other basic computer GUI skills.

    • People learn about computers in a very haphazard manner. For example, I've been using them for about 20 years, and there is an entire univers of computer knowledge I have never encountered. By the same token, many of the supposedly computer-savvy teens today have no idea about many of the fundamental underpinnings of computers. My point is that when you assume a user has "basic" knowledge, you're already leaving some people out of the loop, even if many of them have been using computers for years.

      I think this guide is a fantastic idea for people like my uncle. The guy absolutely hates Microsoft, for a variety of reasons that will be familiar to most Slashdot readers. But he has never switched to anything else because he's too afraid of losing compatibility, not being able to use MS Office, etc. I should say he *was* afraid, because I recently gave him an old G3/500 iBook running Mac OSX, and he loves it.

      Now he is ready to take his old Wintel box and put Linux on it. This manual will be perfect. I can pass it his way, have him give it a read-through, and then I'll go over to his place and we'll run through a Linux installation together.

      There are a variety of folks out there who have a strong dislike for Microsoft products, but have no real experience with anything but Microsoft. They know that many pundits say OS X is a better user experience. They know that Linux is out there too. But they need all the help they can get in pushing past the extremely strong inertia that Microsoft has created.

      You are quite right in saying that "the vast majority of them will be too scared or too stubborn to switch," but I believe that if there are multiple avenues (in the true *NIX tradition) for people to take in their quest to find alternatives to Microsoft, so much the better. Linux has never been about "The One True Way" and I think it's a bit much to expect that we will ever find "a way to deal with it." Why not present multiple paths?

    • Re:Nice, but they've got it all wrong... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by j1m+5n0w ( 749199 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:13PM (#10041632) Homepage Journal
      So is the chance that people's very first system will be Linux high? No. Does this make this whole thing pointless? Yes.

      Perhaps the lack of good documentation is keeping first time users away from Linux? Maybe if we fix the things that drive users away, we'll have a bigger user base? It seems to me that a high quality system that isn't attracting novice users ought to think about producing good documentation. You certainly haven't demonstrated that it is pointless.

      only Microsoft can destroy their own monopoly.

      And the linux community needs to be ready to absorb those users when it happens. Some might say it's already happening, or that it's inevitable.

      We need to find a way to deal with it, and this is not it.

      Why not? Just because linux doesn't attract many casual users doesn't mean we should assume they don't exist, nor should we criticize efforts to attract casual users. Certainly other things need to be worked on as well (useability, more robust configuration tools, etc...), but not everyone is a coder, and not every problem is fixed with code.

      -jim

  • Admirable (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Chuck Bucket ( 142633 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:22PM (#10041098) Homepage Journal
    This is an admirable effort, however why Fedora for a beginner's distro? The problem I see is that Fedora is just getting it's feet wet and entire reinstalls are needed to update from core 1 -> 2. This harks back to my days with Red Hat 5 and Mdk 6. Without trying to start a flamewar, I really think a Debian based system with Synaptic setup for updating is the best solution. Lastly, I don't know if a beginner's guide should include the commandline, that will likely scare some off. Let them get completely comfy in the GUI, then let them start exploring off the path.

    Still, efforts like this NEED to be undertaken, if it's one thing OSS projects often lack is documentation.

    CV*)($#B

  • A good idea, but... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by zaxios ( 776027 ) <zaxios@gmail.com> on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:22PM (#10041101) Journal
    And the cool part is that the entire thing is under an attributions-required OSI-approved Creative Common license, and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) or PDF formats.

    Neither a .sxw or a PDF one would be very useful for someone new to PCs - they need some basic knowledge to even view it, and it would get incredibly confusing to try to use the computer and read instructions off it at the same time. The alternative is to get the manual printed by someone you know who already knows how to use a PC and has a lot of paper and ink to waste and... If you were learning a computer for the first time, what would be more convenient, this or a reasonably cheap, easy to find Dummies guide to PCs (which would refer to Windows)?

    I know we're into OSS evangelism here, but honestly, for someone new to PCs, it would be much better to choose the platform most common and hence easiest to find advice and help for, and that's Windows. As I've seen with my grandparents, learning PCs for the first time is hard enough as it is without the extra trouble of pursuing a minority desktop OS.

  • UNIX on the desktop in 3 steps! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:26PM (#10041126)
    Step 1: Buy a Mac.
    Step 2: Put Mac on desk; power up.
    Step 3: There is no step 3!
    • You must be new here... Step 3 is Profit!
    • Saying that OS X has "the power of Unix" is like putting whippits in my glovebox and saying that my car has "the power of nitrous".

      • Re:UNIX on the desktop in 3 steps! (Score:4, Informative)

        by discogravy ( 455376 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:54PM (#10041804) Homepage
        I take it you haven't actually used a Mac OS X's command-line then. Hell, you can get a dual-proc G5 or an Xserve and use them as pure unix servers. Samba, apache, ssh, a large amount of things can be configured via command-line (the only things that come to mind that aren't able to do this are GUI-only things that it would make no sense to do via CLI anyway.) Probably the only thing that I can think of that's a bitch about OS X is that Java and it's browsers are a bit different on it. Fuck, you can install Fink on it and get apt-get updates and install unix/linux programs like GIMP or different shells (tcsh, csh, ksh, bash, whatever.)

        But if you have a reason for saying that OS X doesn't have the power of unix in it, I'd like to hear about it. It's meant for a workstation or desktop, but it can certainly do traditional unix server stuff.

        • Re:UNIX on the desktop in 3 steps! (Score:4, Insightful)

          by prockcore ( 543967 ) on Monday August 23, 2004 @02:31AM (#10042268)
          Hell, you can get a dual-proc G5 or an Xserve and use them as pure unix servers.

          I wouldn't recommend it though. Darwin has horrible performance. Especially for unix related tasks like file IO, network IO, pipes, and building and tearing down processes.

          There's no comparing Linux versus OSX when it comes to the server space. On the exact same hardware, linux outperforms OSX.

          As far as I'm concerned, OSX's "power of unix" is no different than installing Cygwin on WinXP.

  • I'm concerned their efforts are for nothing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Stevyn ( 691306 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:31PM (#10041149)
    While I commend them on their efforts, I don't think very many people are going to find this useful.

    I would have chosen Mandrake over Fedora because Fedora is meant to be Red Hat's bleeding edge test bed. Mandrake is easy to set up and as long as don't care to tweak around with it much, it'll do you fine.

    Computer use is getting so complex and most of us here don't even realize it. To explain the simplest tasks to someone who knows nothing about computers is not easy and I think it needs to be taught rather than dictated to in a book. And a book at that, a pdf is only useful if someone is going to print it out in lieu of teaching someone.

    Nobody learns to drive a car by reading a manual, and no one should be expected to learn a computer by manual either.
    • After actually getting a couple pages to download (at a whopping .3KB/sec), I gotta say it's pretty impressive.

      This is definitely better than the books I've seen for newbies on Linux.

      BTW, I do this sort of thing for newbies on Win machines, and I'd definitely recommend/give it to people asking for a simple manual. (And yes, I do get requests for Linux)

  • Another good book on Fedora... (Score:5, Informative)

    by aussersterne ( 212916 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:34PM (#10041167) Homepage
    After perusing it, I gave this one to my sisters and mother. It covers all the same things, but in print, with Figures:

    Teach Yourself Red Hat Linux Fedora [amazon.com]

  • SuSe or Fedora? Fedora is actually great! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by p0 ( 740290 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:43PM (#10041226)
    Some of you guys may not suggest Fedora for a linux beginner, but wait, I have seen quite a few users hop on to linux, completely abandoning Windows right with Fedora Core 1, and they are actuallly happy with it!
    Installing applications are not that hard unlike the earlier days. I recommend rpm.pbone.net [pbone.net] to find your applications packaging for Fedora, I have been 99.99% successfull! And with the brand new Yum, staying upto date is always a breeze.
    I also recommend adding Dag Wieers [wieers.com] repository in your yum configuration and this particular one releases very useful applications/updates. Needless to stay, once you load fancy themes [freshmeat.net] and eye-candy like gDesklets [gnomedesktop.org] you really can grab the eyes of people around you while giving you a pleasurable user experience.

  • Friendly linux users/community more important (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I think this is a step in the right direction, but I think it would be even better if there is a distrobution aimed specifically at home linux users, with strong community support.

    I have been using linux for about 5 years, and I have used most of the major distros for a while (Slackware, Red Hat, Debian, Mandrake, Gentoo). One of the things I find lacking is a friendly support group that doesn't just tell you to "RTFM, you n00b!".

    I think Gentoo is definitely heading in the right direction, so far the gent

  • But (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Keifer ( 773922 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @09:56PM (#10041297) Journal
    how is Linux supposed to be usable for someone new to Linux such as myself
    when your new 9800 PRO isn't supported by X?
    • ATI provides a 9800 pro driver. I've installed it myself. The reason X distro's don't include it is because they are proprietary (non-free). However, their generic radeon driver runs just fine as long as you aren't doing any 3d acceleration. Funny, thats the same way it is with windows...built-in driver works but for 3d accel you need the ATI version.
  • The International Open-Source Network has created a desktop manual aimed at end-users with little or no prior knowledge of PCs.

    I seriously hope it's not written in English, then. Everyone able to use a computer that can speak English already likely is.

  • Ever heard of that joke... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:16PM (#10041405)
    This manual goes through ... how to use the OpenOffice.org office suite ... and is available in .sxw (OpenOffice.org Writer) ... formats.

    Erm... This reminds me, I have to go watch that videotape that'll show me how to use my VCR.

  • Linux made huge advances in user-friendliness (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kavau ( 554682 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @10:23PM (#10041439) Homepage
    I'm amazed how many people here like to bash Linux by reviving cliche's that were still true a few years ago, but are all but gone by now. Linux has matured a lot in the last few years, and if you choose the right distro, setting up a basic functional Linux system is even easier than setting up its Windows counterpart.

    Since SuSE Linux is the only distro I have extensive experience with, I use it as an example. Installation is as easy as booting off your DVD, selecting your language, accepting a few default options for partitioning and package selection, choosing your username and passwords, and waiting about half an hour for the system to install. And off you go surfing the net and writing letters with OpenOffice! The last time I ran into serious difficulties with a SuSE install was more than a few years ago.

    A Windows install? The first few steps are quite similar, but once the system is installed the fun begins: insert manufacturer disk to install custom drivers; insert MS Office CDs to install word processor; hop on the web to download Acrobat Reader; install IM client, jukebox, IE replacement, firewall, and whatnot. With Linux all the stuff a beginner needs is already there; no need to hunt around for programs. And no need to reinstall every few months because a worm messed up the system.

    Granted, with Linux you have to pay attention what hardware you choose, especially concerning printers and modems. But the time where you have to touch the command line in order to get Linux to run has passed quite some time ago.

    • "The first few steps are quite similar, but once the system is installed the fun begins: insert manufacturer disk to install custom drivers; insert MS Office CDs to install word processor; hop on the web to download Acrobat Reader; install IM client, jukebox, IE replacement, firewall, and whatnot."

      You've made an excellent point that's often left either unmentioned or underrated. Once a typical user has passed the basic web browsing/e-mail/file management experience, Windows reveals itself as painfully ina

  • the shell (Score:3, Funny)

    by rock_climbing_guy ( 630276 ) on Sunday August 22, 2004 @11:47PM (#10041768) Journal
    I've looked through it, and I still have no idea how to use the three shells [amazon.com].

  • Mirror (Score:4, Informative)

    by mnordstr ( 472213 ) * on Monday August 23, 2004 @06:42AM (#10042948) Journal
    I've set up a mirror at http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguide / [ftlight.net].

    The original page with links is http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguide /print.html [ftlight.net].

    Files are still being downloaded, you can see how many are present from the first link.

    Torrents will be available when downloads are complete at:

    http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguide /linux-userguide-sxw.torrent [ftlight.net] for OpenOffice files and
    http://ftp.ftlight.net/pub/mirrors/linux-userguide /linux-userguide-pdf.torrent [ftlight.net] for PDFs.

  • Great! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mr_z_beeblebrox ( 591077 ) on Monday August 23, 2004 @07:05AM (#10043012) Journal
    Now go around your office and find out which Windows Luser ever read the manual...none. That is how many will read this one. 90% of all users got their sorry little knowledge by routinely watching as their admins were forced to hold their little hands. Laziness, not ignorance, is what stands in the way of switching platforms.

  • I am fed up... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by polyp2000 ( 444682 ) on Monday August 23, 2004 @08:13AM (#10043476) Homepage Journal
    Of hearing the arguments on slashdot, regarding how ready or not linux is for the desktop. While there are a few rough edges here and there. My experience has told me that my retired parents can use Linux (MDK10) (after a successful trial with knoppix) and they rarely need my help. My dad is 70 and my mum in her mid 60's. They use it through choice , its a dual boot system and 99% of the time they choose linux of their own accord. On the rare occaisions my mother boots into windows I often hear her cussing about how she hates windows (this brings a smile to my face!)

    There is more to that story but its proof enough to me that non-technical people can happily use it. And although I am around the house to help if things go awry. My assistance is rarely needed to fix things. When they used windows I would often get frustrated with the constant problems I had to fix for them.

    My point is if you are non-technical windows can be just as annoying. if not worse than a properly set-up linux box. If you are an experienced linux user and are fed up of fixing friends or families windows boxes belonging to non-techies. In my experience once they are up and running those problems seem to dissappear, your life and theirs just got better.

    The only confusing thing for new linux users is breaking the habit of buying off the shelf software. In addition their is the issue of Windows games not running. If they are a hardcore gamer chances are they are fairly technical anyway. My PS2 does just fine for me.

    Anyway the point of this post was not really to post "yet another example of how linux can work well for non-techies" but actually to ask this question...

    Does anyone know of a website containing l success stories and examples of non-techies who have found the joy linux has brought into their computing lives? Because if one does not exist, I'd like to consider setting one up. Anyone interested or with similar stories please post here.

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