Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us? 837
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller (of NewsForge and sometimes Slashdot) spent five days in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyadh, meeting with local Linux advocates and users, and wrote five articles while he was there. The article titles are Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes, Saudi Space Institute techies love their new Linux computer, Meet Saudi Arabia's most famous computer expert, Saudi open source conference opens minds, and Linux and open source opportunities in the Mideast. This is the first in-depth look ever at open source (and programming in general) in a conservative Islamic country. Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere, but from comments on the stories it looks like a lot of people don't agree.
Yes. (Score:2, Funny)
No. (Score:3, Insightful)
There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.
This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious z
Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)
To test this hypothesis, try arguing about the Koran. The Arabs that I have known cannot debate religion in the way that we debate religion.
Try asking them about the status of woemen; the same brick wall comes up.
There is nothing wrong with this IMHO. They can live in whatever way that they want, as long as they dont try and make me live like them in my own country. In this way, we can have peace forever, and everyone can follow w
Re:No. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, I dare say this will be taken as a troll, but to many of us outsiders the USA looks like a society with more than its fair share of crazy religious zealots, but I still realise that you're not all like that. Is religious fundamentalism more ingrained in Saudi Arabia than in the USA? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure there must be exceptions either way.
Re:No. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)
They are all in need of God.
Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)
The difference between the religious zealots in America and those in Saudi Arabia is that the ones in America don't lock school girls in a burning school because they can't find their burkas. In America, we don't have massive public beheadings in soccer stadiums. In America, everybody has the right to practice their religion with out obstruction by the governmen
Re:The US *Does* have to many religious zelots (Score:3, Insightful)
Until now.
Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't project your opinions on the group you think you belong to. To a lot of geeks, atheism is just as stupid as theism (you're still assuming things about "God", but can't define what "God" is), and uncontrolled libertarianism is just as stupid as unbridled socialism (why trust business more than government?).
There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.
Yes, and the misconception is yours. There is nothing that says you have to be a libertarian or an atheist to be a geek. Why would there be a PS geek code [geekcode.com] if we're all libertarians?
This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious zealot, but if you grow up in that kind of environment, a lot of it would probably rub off on you.
Probably just as much as that feeling of cultural superiority rubs off on a lot of westerners. There are a lot of little kings out there who think it's their godgiven right to pass judgement on everyone in the world (but get utterly nasty if you treat them the same way). It doesn't really matter if the superiority attidude comes from a religious or from a socio-economical background, the result is the same.
The Saudis, at least the people in charge, are like the Taliban with gold Rolexes.
Yeah cool, but what has this got to do with Saudi geeks?
Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)
/. geeks are not libertarians. No libertarian believes in monopoly regulation, yet the majority of
Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)
Odd, that the US never lifted a finger against either Pinochet or Franco, who were much nastier dictators than Saddam.. and of course the North Korean communists, who without question have WMD merit nothing more than strong language. Hell, I'd *love* it if the US w
Something In Common (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Something In Common (Score:2)
Breath holding is not recommended.
Thomas Miconi
Re:Something In Common (Score:3, Funny)
They hate each other but love FreeBSD over Linux/Windows. Oh how sweet. Lets hug each other.
Too thorough comparision (Score:5, Funny)
What's that exactly supposed to mean?
Re:Too thorough comparision (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Too thorough comparision (Score:5, Funny)
Right? Guys?
Oh damn...
Re:Too thorough comparision (Score:2)
I'm not kidding!
He peeked. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Too thorough comparision (Score:2, Insightful)
Why restrict it to geeks in the first place...
True litmus test (Score:5, Funny)
Or . . .
Show them a picture of Natalie Portman and gauge their reaction.
Re:True litmus test (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it's nice to know that there aren't any Arabs who hate Jews. I'll sleep a lot better now that I know such an authority as yourself has declared the Arab world free of any such sentiments.
Actually, of course, if you look at any semi-reputable news organization (and by this I mean some news organizations in Europe, because anything in the US, Israel, or most of the Arab world is just organized propoganda) the prejudice of Arabs against Jews, and Jews against Arabs, is quite marked. And equally unfortunate (and unfair) on both sides.
> A racist state set up by terrorists and supported by racists.
There are elements of truth and falsehood in this, as in most statements that are made by fanatics. With most fanatics, the elements of falsehood greatly outweigh the elements of truth. I won't presume to judge in this particular case.
I also except statements made by people like Rush Limbaugh, which, as often as not, actually contain no element of truth what so ever. ("Styrofoam is biodegradable!")
> EVERYONE should hate Israel, just as they shouldn't hate Jews.
I'm always delighted to be told who to hate.
However, I in general like to not actually hate anyone. I know this makes me a lousy American, as well as someone committing the fundamental solicism of disagreeing with you, Mr. Partridge, but I've always found that hating tendes to lead to suffering. On both sides.
But hey, if that's what you're looking for, you have fun.
-fred
Well... (Score:4, Funny)
Not a correct gauge (Score:4, Funny)
Emacs Vi Emacs
Vi is for pussies.
That's a dumb question. (Score:2)
Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps this tendency is what causes geeks to be more or less similar in that we tend to care more about our field(s) of choice than things like government propaganda. Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe. Besides, if you give in to stupid petty hatreds, you might miss something that some member of one of those social groups has to say about computers, or astronomy, or what have you.
One thing that comes back to me time and time again is that people all over the world have the same potential. One thing that has led me to that conclusion is geekdom. Racism or most other -isms would just get in the way.
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:2, Insightful)
Women aren't even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia and they have religious police that murdered school girls by not allowing them out of a burning building because they where not 'dressed' correctly. When you make the decision that dress in more important than the lives of kids you are a majorly fucked up society.
I could go on, but I have work to do. If you wish, please feel free to continue
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Funny)
You say that like it's a bad thing...
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Insightful)
when you have to have metal detectors at schools you are in a majorly fucked up society. something to think about.
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:4, Insightful)
Or to be specific:
The existence of evil in America does not change, mitigate or otherwise affect the existence of greater evil in Saudi Arabia.
(And if your post was 'Insightful', I'm Toxie the Toxic Avenger.)
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Insightful)
Those metal detecters are there because a handfull of people went nuts, The US saw a problem and is trying to rectify it. What has S.A. done to prevent locking children in and setting them ablaze? Oh wait, it was thier idea in the first place.. Yeah I can see how much worse the U.S. is.....
What happens in the U.S. can only be compared if we are NOT activly trying to do something about it
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Insightful)
Women aren't even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia and they have religious police that murdered school girls by not allowing them out of a burning building because they where not 'dressed' correctly. When you make the decision that dress in more important than the lives of kids you are a majorly fucked up society.
Is this *more* or *fewer* dead kids than all school shooting victims in the US in the past year? I'm thinking there is more than one fucked up society here...
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:5, Insightful)
So while more kids died in school shootings in the US for the years sampled than little girls burned to death in Saudi Arabia, you have to keep some other factors in mind:
1: Saudi Arabia has a population of roughly 24 million. The US has a population of roughly 290 million. So for the two statistics to be equilivant, there would've had to have been 193 school shootings in one year. As is, the ratio of deaths is much lower in the US.
2: People in the US recognize that school shootings are a problem. We take active steps to counter them, and from all indications those steps are working. The Saudis didn't seem to care that little girls burned to death, there haven't been any major sweeping changes of the Ministry for the Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue.
3: When school kids kill each other with guns, it is a criminal act not sanctioned by the government. When Saudi authorities lock little girls in their school and make them burn to death, it is a criminal act sanctioned by the government.
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole point of this article, which is seemingly lost on the above poster, is that in contrast to whatever vast societal differences may separate individuals, we can share many things in common - often on profoundly meaningful levels.
As an American aid worker living and working in the middle east, I can tell you point blank that the reason why there is conflict between our two societies is because there are assholes on both sides. The above post is demonstrative of that fact.
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Insightful)
Think about how the Americans have conducted themselves around the world before you spout off. Some of the highlights include the genocide against the native Americans, slavery, and government sanctioned discrimination against those people until very recently, the supply of arms to these very same r'egimes, supplying arms to central America, etc, etc.
And at least in muslim countries you know that Islam is the law of
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Funny)
And from one Canadian to another, please do us all a favour and move somewhere where your brand of sophisticated political analysis and your fantastic social skills will be more thoroughly appreciated. I hear there's a lot of open land in Texas just waiting to be developed.
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:3, Insightful)
Cheers.
Re:Geeks everywhere are (essentially) the same (Score:2)
Isn't that still a nerd? I think geek is the more hardcore nerd without the social skills. :-)
zSure, unless they're women. (Score:5, Insightful)
Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.
Please. Most American geeks tend not to be white-supremacists or anything like that because modern American culture abhors that kind of thinking. You won't find any kind of "racist" anywhere, unless you look very hard.
On the other hand, have you ever read slashdot? Look at all the anti-Indian hysteria in any thread about H1-B or off shoring. It's the same unthinking "us vs. them, they're taking our jobs" attitude that all racism is borne out of. Maybe they won't take the final step to true racism (i.e. anyone of Indian decent == bad), but it's just as bad (any Indian == bad job stealer).
A couple years ago, there was an article about a fiber-optic link around Africa. I was shocked when I read the comments. People were pissed, like it was some kind of a waste (even though it was being done by African countries expecting to make a profit). The racist comments in that thread were beyond the pail.
Geeks have just as much capacity for ugliness as anyone else. I'm willing to bet that "geeks" in SA have the same sort of opinions on religious diversity, women's rights, etc that most of the country does, which is pretty bad.
class vs. race (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sure, unless they're women. (Score:5, Interesting)
In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.
RTFA.
One of the things that Saudi geeks are apparently actively discussing (privately) is how software development work makes it possible for women to work without incurring the wrath of fundamentalist Muslims. Sure, that's mainly because they can work from home so the fundamentalists never see them, but the point is that these Islamic geeks in Saudi Arabia are actively considering how they can utilize technology to allow women to work. Their goal is to exploit an untapped resource, but even if they're underpaid and hidden from sight, working women will have a new power and level of influence they've not had before -- and these geeks don't see any problem with that.
Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.
Or, in this case, hacking out more code.
It's this sort of understated change that ultimately changes whole cultures. It's also precisely what a lot of the radicals are afraid of and can not stop, no matter how many car bombs they detonate.
Completely different (Score:4, Funny)
Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Umm... (Score:2, Informative)
Look at how women and other religious minorities are treated before you start saying that other geeks are just like them.
Do some research.
Re:Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at how women and other religious minorities are treated before you start saying that other geeks are just like them.
Um, they do? Show me the bit in the articles where it said that all the Saudi geeks were 100% behind the fundamentalist excesses of their government.
I might as well conclude that all American geeks are creationists? After all, some people in your government are creationists, so obviously that applies to every member of the population too!
Re:Umm... (Score:3, Informative)
This is the scary part.
Somehow you hoped that people in such a fucked up society that leaves little girls in a burning school as they were not dressed correctly, were different.
I for one would like to be able to point to a special aberrant gene causing this crap.
Essentially the same, but... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Essentially the same, but... (Score:5, Funny)
I, for one... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Well.. (Score:2)
How would you like it if they said "let's remember that every American likes to invade Arab countries and believes the Second Coming is at hand"?
Re:Well.. (Score:2)
So you are saying "In general Saudis are like that but not the majority of them"?
That makes no sense at all.
I had the opportunity (Score:5, Interesting)
I discussed the job possibility with my wife (the money was very, very good), but her life would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse in that country. Women there (particularly foreign, christian women) do NOT have the same rights as men. Among other things, you can be detained by the religious police (different from the regular police) if you are a female out in public, not accompanied by at least one male relative. Not wearing an abayah (female headgear) in public is asking for trouble.
I should point out that lots of westerners live in walled compounds, so you don't really have to interact with the regular population if you don't really want to... but who wants to be cooped up in a walled compound for a year or two? The security we had at our military base was ridiculous (and necessary), and the compounds did not have the same level of security. Remember those car bomb attacks in Riyadh last year? They wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance at our military compound... that's the kind of security I'm talking about.
It's a very different culture, and a tough environment to walk into as a freedom-loving american... despite the excellent cash compensation. You really have to bite your tongue, be polite, keep your opinions to yourself, and be a gracious guest. Saudi justice is not american justice (in court, if it's a muslim's word against a christian's word, the christian can lose automatically) You're NOT a citizen there, and if you forget that detail, you can get yourself in serious trouble.
Good money, and I'm sure they could use a few geeks... but know what you're getting yourself into. Lots of TCNs (third country nationals) work there... Britts, French, etc, and some of them seemed to like it... but it wasn't for me.
Not all countries in the middle east are the same (Score:5, Informative)
First to dispel some misconceptions: The women on the roads here think it is just as crazy that their counterparts in Saudi can't drive. Alcohol is available at hotels, restaurants, and in liquor stores. There is essentially no dress code for visitors, and we see plenty of tank tops and belly-button rings. Women don't wear veils or always black, because that's not part of Islam - that's a recent part of Saudi culture. Plenty of women wear jeans and t-shirts. Birth control pills are available at subsidized rates and are encouraged. And of course there are all of the modern ammenities you'd expect: water, power, cheap gas, shopping malls, movie theaters, Starbucks and McDonalds and satellite TV, just like everywhere else.
Second, there are a number of ways in which life here compares favorably to life back home (I'm American): in day to day living, things are less oppressive here. When you get pulled over by the cops, you get immediately get out of your car and shake hands with the cop and exchange pleasantries. You would get shot doing this where I lived in LA. Speaking of getting shot, there are no guns here. Well, there are rifles of course, but murder is exceedinly rare. In fact, the last one was some Texan woman who murdered her oil-worker husband with the aid of her son. There is virtually no crime to speak of at all. No metal detectors in schools, no looking over your shoulder in dark alleys, no worries or concerns about getting carjacked or mugged or harassed in any way. I rarely lock my car, never lock my house. Punishment for crimes is indeed swift, certain and severe, but a trial by jury is guaranteed - kind of like small-town USA. Medical care? Free. For everyone, foreign or Omani.
Freedom? There sure seems to be. All citizens vote for parliament members. There are female doctors, professors, ministers - you're free to choose to do whatever you want with your life. Freedom of religion too. A couple of my jewish friends have been out to visit and loved this place. You're much more free here to go where you like, camp where you like, eat and drink and smoke where you like. Cops in Arizona (well, rangers), in the middle of nowhere, busted me for trespassing and not camping at a designated campsite. And here I was used to rolling up any old place, pitching a tent, making a fire, cooking up some pork sausages I picked up from the local supermarket, surfing and fishing wherever I chose.
Next to my folks' house in California people had a 'vote no on prop 22' sign on their front lawn (the bill that would have allowed gay marriage, which was voted down). Racial hate crimes and general tension are vastly greater in the states than here - Oman is historically a melting pot because of all its sea-faring trade. Oh, and unlike in here, I needed a license to catch a fish and a permit for wherever I wanted to go fishing back in California.
The point of all this is that things are never black and white, and these countries out here are almost nothing like what the evening news and our elected officials would have us believe.
Who said anything about animals? (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, it was more than that.
Perhaps this is difficult for you to understand, but Americans are extremely fond of speaking their minds... both in private, and public. In America, if I wanted to walk around in front of a catholic church with a blood-drenched picture of the pope, accusing him of horrible crimes, I could do it (not that I would, but you get the idea). In Saudi Arabia, that could get you beheaded.
I would not want to force my wife to wear something she didn't agree with, particularly something that is required by a religion we don't practice, that ostensibly puts her in a subservient position. I consider women to be my equal in virtually everything, excepting perhaps physical size and strength. I have a problem with subjecting my wife to possible humiliation, interrogation, and virtual imprisonment just to make a few bucks.
Judging by the reaction of muslims when their women are prohibited from wearing veils in schools and drivers license photographs, it's obvious you can appreciate my point. You don't like being forced, and neither do I.
As for being courteous and polite, that goes both ways... you could expect my politeness to end, with extreme prejudice, the moment some muttawa religious policeman tried to strike my wife with his stick because he could see skin above her ankles in public. All cultural differences aside, if you strike a man's wife in front of him, you'd better be prepared for the consequences, whether you're Saudi or American.
Call me an ugly american if you want, but I have a problem with asking my wife to live in an environment like that, even for a year or two... I simply have too much respect for her.
Some things are more important than money.
Re:I had the opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)
Have you ever actually gone to court? For middle-class Americans, even a moderate court battle can be a devastating financial blow. For an immigrant, visitor, or somebody who's just poor, the costs can make good representation impossible.
There are many bleeding hearts out there who will fight for your cause no matter how evil or good you may actually be, as long as you have a good sto
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The articles in question were vignettes on a much more human, reasonable side of Saudi life. Oh, the heresy. These complaints smack of 1980's propaganda about the Soviet Union wherein any attempt to humanize even the most lowly of citizens on the other side to a degree that didn't fit that approved portrayal was viewed as practically treasonous.
If the articles concluded that Saudi Arabia was a wonderful idyllic land of nothing but brotherly and sisterly love with no social problems, fine, fire away. However, the writer has acknowledged the problems and chosen to move on, leaving that analysis to the droves of writers that have already written volumes on the subject and continue every day.
This sort of journalism illustrates what isn't on the standard yellow journalistic boilerplate and does so with integrity. The endless spewing of vitriol at such an objective account shows the fragility of the standard-issue American view on all things foreign and belies its assumed basis in truth.
Re:Well.. (Score:5, Informative)
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, reports from the women themselves, etc.
Here's an example of Saudi Arabian barbarism towards women and girls: Religious police make girls die in fire because they aren't wearing headscarves [amnesty.org]
Re:Well.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Also don't forget that it isn't very long ago when people in western civilisations thought of women in much the same way as certain Muslim zealots do.
Re:Well.. (Score:4, Insightful)
There are probably people in Norway who believe things that would disgust you as well as me, but I'm not going to accuse you of beliving the same things as they do just because you live in the same country. Please accord Saudis the same respect.
Re:Well.. (Score:3, Insightful)
i Norge (Score:3, Insightful)
Ja! Not imprisoning kids for fifteen years for cracking some silly protection system, having politicians who take home a reasonable salary and have no commercial interests and many other cultural idiosyncracies that may seem odd to a US citizen.
But seriously,intelligence depends on a willingness to think for oneself. It should be no surprise that it is these people who are least constrained by the arbitary be
Re:Well.. (Score:2)
Hell, woman are not even allowed to drive!
They can not book hotel rooms because women who are not with their husbands are considered prostitutes and whores. This actually happened to a female western journalist. The hotel refused her because her husband was not present.
Service women in the milatary can be spat at and fined if they do not cover their face, etc.
They also persecute christians, jews, and even shi-ite muslims who are n
Re:No you moron. (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux encroaching non Western countries (Score:2, Interesting)
Perceived Differences (Score:2, Insightful)
The essence of this topic is that we are all human beings besides different culture, attitudes and religions. When someone sits at a keyboard the way they use it is going to be most likely the same way you use yours; key layout may be different but they are still using their fingers to do the typing.
A geek is a geek is a geek. Before
Yep. (Score:5, Funny)
> Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere
Even the most rudimentary biological knowledge should have tipped you off that what's under the robes is just like what's under the jeans, kilt, or lederhosen.
They don't have girlfriends, either. (Score:5, Funny)
Roblimo's got balls (Score:5, Funny)
Surfing pr0n in Saudi and then writing about it. I hope he gets out of the country.
It has to be said. (Score:3, Funny)
Nobody expects the Saudi Inquisition!
no.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:no.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Ten differences... (Score:5, Funny)
1. The Saudi geeks don't have cellars.
2. They browse from right to left.
3. Stateside geeks have longer hacking sessions, not being required to stop for prayers every few hours.
4. Saudi geeks have better weather.
5. Saudi geeks drink tea, while stateside geeks drink coffee.
6. Saudi geeks get more work done, not reading Slashdot as often.
7. Stateside geeks wear sandals, Saudi geeks wear Gucci.
8. Stateside geeks rarely dress in white.
9. Saudi geeks speak at least two languages - Arab and English. Stateside geeks hardly speak at all.
10. Saudi geeks go camel-riding in the weekends. Stateside geeks don't have weekends.
Unlike us. Period. (Score:2, Insightful)
Unlike us, because we have a solid middle-class with kids that can afford to be geeks. Geeks whom may surf for porn, express their political opinion and whear stuff people are wearing on MTV.
Where's that free, liberal solid middle-class in SA?
Nerds == Nerds (Score:3, Funny)
(someone corrects my syntax)
Geeks from Saudi Arabia (Score:5, Informative)
As a part time team member of the (imho
Last time we got to know that someone from the Arabic community has done this already.
Unfortunatly, my Arabic is still far too broken to be used in daily conversation or even letters. It took some time and attempts to get into contact with them. Well, it seems that this week, the phpmyfaq will be shipped as a version 1.3.9-pl2, introducing Arabic support, thanks to these great people.
If someone speaks this beatiful language, he/she might check out these forum threads:
swalif [swalif.net]
or alqafelah [alqafelah.com]
This is one of the arabic phpmyfaqs: ksavb.com [ksavb.com]. Pretty interesting style imho.
The arabic language file was first spotted on albakr [albakr.net]
Doesn't this look like the cute Arabic sister of freshmeat.net?
In Saudi Arabia... (Score:2, Funny)
Spamming for Free Speech ? (Score:5, Interesting)
It does sound twisted, but because it is in context of a country where free speech is quite restricted - the thought did pop in my head.
Could it happen that some day spamming techniques or "spammers" will be hired by people who want to exercise their free speech ? You could spam with censored information when every other means of getting your voice heard is suppressed ?
Full Disclosure - I don't know spam. I have never sent spam. I don't like spam.
Women in Saudi computer industry (Score:2)
Women are already an overwhelming minority in the field, and I can imagine that it is not only uncommon, but very difficult for them to make even a minimal impact in the tech world there.
Re:Women in Saudi computer industry (Score:2)
Bummer... (Score:2)
Dang, must be tough having his job. Now...the average reader might read this and think that Roblimo's lying just for the journalistic effect here, but read his sta
Roblimo, Saudia Arabia, Open Source and Freedom (Score:5, Insightful)
So is there a problem with this? I believe there is. You see, Microsoft, or any other software development house, can afford to optimize its development methodology or even start from scratch a la Apple, if it really became all that self-evident to them that they were technically and financially failing. So one of two things can happen:
1) if they throw enough money at the problem, they will match our technical achivements. Apple started from scratch and has produced a decent OS built on top of BSD/Darwin/Mach. So it is doable.
2) They do not match our technical achiviements. Yet at the end of the day, if the only thing we care about is having an open source operating system regardless of whether it advances the cause of freedom, then the labor of love of all these years will seem a little less meaningful to many of us. To me, it will be all seem pretty hollow.
And here's where I have a problem with Roblimo's articles. He does not question the irony that the Saudy monarchy is using free software to exercise censorship and control. Even if some of can be circumvented, it is perversed to those that believe in Free Software to see this happen. And in respecting the freedom of the license, we must allow it, but we should call oppression by its name when we come across it and he did not have the guts to do it.
He could have looked for hactivists in Saudi Arabia to see what tools they were using and how they were furthering the cause of freedom. He could have spoken to dissidents, but he didin't. It's easy to stay at a comfy hotel and write from the sidelines. It's easier to be an expectator paying lipservice to free softaware than to stand up for what free softare actually represents.
In summary, being technically superior without being morally committed to the cause of freedom is a very hollow undertaking.
Re:Roblimo, Saudia Arabia, Open Source and Freedom (Score:5, Informative)
2) I did *not* stay in the hotel. I wandered all over Riyadh, and I met quietly with several social dissidents, but writing about them by name would not be safe -- for them. Sometimes it's better to leave a U.S. reader thinking less of me than to put someone's life in danger. At least *I* think so. You are free to disagree.
3) I'm sure I'll eventually write other stories about Saudi Arabia that will go more deeply into the social/religious/political situation there, but not for NewsForge or Slashdot. There are other media where those stories would be more appropriate.
- Robin
Geekness == culture (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't geekness just a culture where people worship technology. And from my experience they are very conservative in their way.
so there is no fundamental difference in my eyes and especially no cultural gap for the saudis.
like us? (Score:2, Insightful)
Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)
When Collin Powel considered running for president, all the white people mentioned that "He speaks so well. He speaks so well". How the fuck is he supposed to speak? "Ima be pres-o-dent!"
geez.
LS
Yes (Score:2, Funny)
Bad Story!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Are Muslim field hockey players just like us other girls?
GAH!
People are pretty much the same around the world (Score:5, Insightful)
Physiologically people are quite the same. Some have folds in their eyes, some have lost pigment from their skin and some have fat in different places. These are only cosmetical differences. Inside we're all the same.
If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you'll see that the bottom layers are physiological, safety, and love. These are what every person in the world wants. They don't want to sit in the cold, they don't want to be hungry and they don't want to be afraid. (Yet some are.) And people want love and want to love.
The only substantial difference between different nations is due to culture. Some are born in conservative countries, some in liberal. Others live in religious areas, others have secular rule. Yet despite this, people still practice arts, science, whatever. You have geeks in Saudi-Arabia and deeply religious people in USA.
Whatever group of people you look, you'll find innovative people there. I recently received a revelation about this subject while reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. (Excellent book, recommended). His examples showed how people have adapted to all sorts of environments and made the best use of available resources. If this does not restore your faith in mankind, nothing will.
It is true that there is a deep cultural divide between the Western world and the countries of the East, and I don't see the current political situation to lessen the situation at all. However, this is mostly due to ignorance. If you see two small children playing with toys, do you care if one of them is a Jew and another one an Arab? Do the children care? No.
If Mr. Bush had met Mr. Hussein in a neutral and safe environment before the war, would they have fought with their bare fists. Probably not. Their nations fought one another, perhaps even their ideologies. But the people themselves... you can hardly ever find a good reason to strike at your fellow man. (This teaching, it would seem, lies at the heart of every religion. Sadly it is not observed very often.)
The only way to fight this is to get rid of the prejudice and the fear. If you can, travel to different countries and try to see beneath the surface. People are the same, even in France. Try to learn about different cultures. If you can't spare the money, go to http://www.wikipedia.org/ and read about the different achievements of cultures both long gone and present. Read about their times of glory and downfall. Go to a library and read a book. (Once again I recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel".
I'd like to end this rant with a quote from Charlie Chaplin. At the end of "The Dictator," the Jewish barber (who looks like Adolf Hynkel) gives a rather touching speech about universal harmony. (Emphasis mine.)
"I'm sorry but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible; Jew, Gentile, black men, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each others' happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls; has barricaded the world with hate; has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge as made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these things cries out for the goodness in man; cries out for universal brotherhood; for the unity of us all."
Re:People are pretty much the same around the worl (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, my first hand observations show that the culture of a society directly influences the psychology of a people. And the psychology of a people, for lack of a better term, is who they "are".
Here's a really long in-depth article [lawrencewright.com] by a man who spent some time in the kingdom mentoring some newspaper reporters. Some very interesting views.
Article says (Score:4, Insightful)
I know of many geeks who are not single. For the rest, it is the society/media that glamorizes football jocks and the thugs these days over people who are in the field of science/technology
I think that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Support all Moslem geeks with free beer! (Score:5, Funny)
[leaps behind politically correct flame-proof wall]
Please, let's not! (Score:3, Funny)
Um, I don't know about you guys, but I really, really don't want to go there.
Space institute (Score:3, Interesting)
The last thing I want to see is an Islamic country with a large fundamentalist population picking up expertise in missle technology.
The fight against nuclear proliferation is being lost, but at least we (Americans, I guess I should say) have some protection from the difficulties associated with targeting long range missles.
Saudi Arabia is an ally, and I don't want to run them down. But they're an ally that doesn't have a lot of ability to control its technology and funds. Pakistan is in the same category. These countries are allies, but there are people with high positions in the militaries and intelligence services of both countries that are very hostile to the US.
The standard geek way of looking at space technology is either naive or deliberately ignores some basic facts. It's military technology.
The space race with Russia was not undertaken to beam cool pictures of guys walking on the moon to the folks at home. It was because we felt we had to be better at building ICBMs and cruise missles than the Russians.
Our skill with satellites gives us intelligence and the ability to coordinate our forces on the ground, and to target our weapons much more precisely.
That's what this stuff is really for. Bush knows it, the Saudis know it, the Pakistanis know it, the Russians know it, and the EU knows it.
The HST is amazingly cool. The mars rover is incredible. They do spend some money on pure science. I'm glad they do.
But if you look at space technology purely as geeky goodness, and not as (at the very least) dual-use military technology, then you aren't looking at the space program in a realistic way.
And for the record, under Saudi law RobLimo could have been decapitated for pulling up that porn while he was on Saudi soil. The government looks the other way when Westerners do stuff like that, but it is the law.
The fact that he pulled up the porn under those circumstances, to check the filter, makes me wonder about how well he understands the people he was covering.
It's nice to see that you are all so openminded... (Score:4, Interesting)
Saudi geeks are much like any other geeks, religion is not a factor in being a geek, culture is not a factor in being a geek, just a love of what you do and in the case of computer geeks it's computers.
Having lived in saudi for the first 18 years of my life before going away to university I'd say that saudi geeks are the same as they are anywhere. if anythign the "restrictive" society leads more people to be introversive and there are more people that spend far too much time in front of computer screens, there are also a surprising number of women that go on to do degrees in computing, which one can assume is and extension of their geekiness.
I've seen geeks around the world and they are the same, we dont ride camels to work, or flying carpets, we don't have hot and cold running oil.
In the city I live in there are entire shopping malls dedicated to selling computer parts, every where you go you are hassled by people who are trying to sell you pirated software. computers are an enourtmous thing here, because there is nothing else to do. some people use their computers to play games, some people use them to mess around with photos, some use them to hack about with code, some just spend hours surfing the net and talking to people that they normally wouldn't be able to talk to in person due to the restrictions of the society (mainly the opposite sex, regardless of which sex they are, there is little intermingling for most people but some are more liberated.)
anyway it's nice to see that everyone is so openminded and such and that being at the frontiers of counter culture you aren't swayed by stereo types...
Re:How do they spell (Score:3, Informative)
Sorry, I don't have the unicode. Essentially: Alif -Lam Ba-Waw-Sod-Ta, Alif-Lam Alif(with hamza)-Waw(with shadda)-Lam, . The last letters for "bust" may differ (emphatic or not) depending on the original pronunciation.
Thomas Miconi
Re:Where's the camel? (Score:5, Funny)
Probably about the same number of (native) penguins that are in North America and Europe.