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Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us? 837

Robin 'Roblimo' Miller (of NewsForge and sometimes Slashdot) spent five days in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyadh, meeting with local Linux advocates and users, and wrote five articles while he was there. The article titles are Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes, Saudi Space Institute techies love their new Linux computer, Meet Saudi Arabia's most famous computer expert, Saudi open source conference opens minds, and Linux and open source opportunities in the Mideast. This is the first in-depth look ever at open source (and programming in general) in a conservative Islamic country. Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere, but from comments on the stories it looks like a lot of people don't agree.
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Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us?

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  • Yes. (Score:2, Funny)

    by Limburgher ( 523006 )
    And? Geeks are the same everywhere.
    • No. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by autopr0n ( 534291 )
      I doubt this is true. The same love for computers and tech? Probably. But this doesn't make them "the same". I really doubt that many Saudi Geeks would have the same libertarian, open-society, atheistic outlook that many geeks here in the US seem to have.

      There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.

      This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious z
      • Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by sydlexic ( 563791 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:42PM (#8008445)
        I guess you don't know any Arabs. They are quite liberal. This is especially true of the younger generation. The people in charge are not the Taliban ... but they are resposible for the rise of fundamentalism through corruption, cronyism and basically being too self-absorbed to really care about the countries they're in charge of. They've left that to the powerful, unelected religious leaders. And it's *these* people who are the prime benefactors of the Wests gross misconceptions and indifference to the Arab people. The anger that generates only fuels more fundamentalism.
        • Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          They are quite liberal. This is especially true of the younger generation.

          To test this hypothesis, try arguing about the Koran. The Arabs that I have known cannot debate religion in the way that we debate religion.

          Try asking them about the status of woemen; the same brick wall comes up.

          There is nothing wrong with this IMHO. They can live in whatever way that they want, as long as they dont try and make me live like them in my own country. In this way, we can have peace forever, and everyone can follow w
        • Re:No. (Score:3, Informative)

          by be-fan ( 61476 )
          Eh. I know lots of Arabs (I'm a Muslim) and I wouldn't say that they are quite liberal. I know lots of Southerners too (I live in Georgia) and I'd say that they are not very liberal either. They are, of course, good people, but they do have a conservative streak.
      • Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:50PM (#8008497)
        This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious zealot, but if you grow up in that kind of environment, a lot of it would probably rub off on you.

        Okay, I dare say this will be taken as a troll, but to many of us outsiders the USA looks like a society with more than its fair share of crazy religious zealots, but I still realise that you're not all like that. Is religious fundamentalism more ingrained in Saudi Arabia than in the USA? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure there must be exceptions either way.
        • Re:No. (Score:3, Interesting)

          Damn right - most Europeans have a REALLY hard time coming to terms with the American bible-thumping right wing. That's why we're never really sure if you're civilised or not - I mean, what the fuck are Bush's "faith based initiatives" doing in a country with a supposed strict segregation of church and state? The French are taking a lot of heat over their banning of school-worn hijabs, but it seems entirely consistent with their constitution to me.
        • Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)

          Is religious fundamentalism more ingrained in Saudi Arabia than in the USA? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure there must be exceptions either way.

          The difference between the religious zealots in America and those in Saudi Arabia is that the ones in America don't lock school girls in a burning school because they can't find their burkas. In America, we don't have massive public beheadings in soccer stadiums. In America, everybody has the right to practice their religion with out obstruction by the governmen
      • Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Zan Zu from Eridu ( 165657 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @04:01PM (#8009298) Journal
        I really doubt that many Saudi Geeks would have the same libertarian, open-society, atheistic outlook that many geeks here in the US seem to have.

        Don't project your opinions on the group you think you belong to. To a lot of geeks, atheism is just as stupid as theism (you're still assuming things about "God", but can't define what "God" is), and uncontrolled libertarianism is just as stupid as unbridled socialism (why trust business more than government?).

        There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.

        Yes, and the misconception is yours. There is nothing that says you have to be a libertarian or an atheist to be a geek. Why would there be a PS geek code [geekcode.com] if we're all libertarians?

        This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious zealot, but if you grow up in that kind of environment, a lot of it would probably rub off on you.

        Probably just as much as that feeling of cultural superiority rubs off on a lot of westerners. There are a lot of little kings out there who think it's their godgiven right to pass judgement on everyone in the world (but get utterly nasty if you treat them the same way). It doesn't really matter if the superiority attidude comes from a religious or from a socio-economical background, the result is the same.

        The Saudis, at least the people in charge, are like the Taliban with gold Rolexes.

        Yeah cool, but what has this got to do with Saudi geeks?

      • Re:No. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by geekee ( 591277 )
        "would have the same libertarian, open-society, atheistic outlook that many geeks here in the US seem to have."

        /. geeks are not libertarians. No libertarian believes in monopoly regulation, yet the majority of /.ers believe it is right to regulate Microsoft.
  • Something In Common (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 17, 2004 @11:57AM (#8007675)
    Hey, now the Israelis and the Saudis can team up! You knew Open Source was going to turn political.
    • Just after terrorism is stopped, Israeli colonies (or "settlements") in Palestine are dismantled, an agreement is reached over the holy sites, a stable democratic Palestinian state emerges sharing Jerusalem as a capital with Israel, free circulation between these two countries is instored and peace and collaboration treaties are signed between Israel and all Arab states, there'll be nothing to prevent Saudis from teaming up with Israelis.

      Breath holding is not recommended.

      Thomas Miconi
    • .... as well as the Indian and Pakistani ones.

      They hate each other but love FreeBSD over Linux/Windows. Oh how sweet. Lets hug each other.

  • by Gyan ( 6853 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @11:59AM (#8007683)
    Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere

    What's that exactly supposed to mean?
  • by UnknowingFool ( 672806 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @11:59AM (#8007690)
    Why don't they fill out the recent slashdot "Biggest Failure as a Nerd" survey [slashdot.org]?

    Or . . .

    Show them a picture of Natalie Portman and gauge their reaction.

  • Well... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Ice_Balrog ( 612682 ) <ice_balrog@@@netzero...net> on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:00PM (#8007692)
    It depends. Do they use Vi or *shudder*Emacs?
  • Geekiness knows no cultural bounds...
  • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:01PM (#8007705) Homepage Journal
    You're a geek if you are passionate about something nerdy, but still have social skills of some sort. ("Geek" has often been defined as someone who is social about computers, but you can be a math geek, physics geek, et cetera.) To me, being a geek implies that you revel in understanding something difficult and you feel the same satisfaction from grokking the deep and apparently unexplainable that other people get from their "normal" pursuits.

    Perhaps this tendency is what causes geeks to be more or less similar in that we tend to care more about our field(s) of choice than things like government propaganda. Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe. Besides, if you give in to stupid petty hatreds, you might miss something that some member of one of those social groups has to say about computers, or astronomy, or what have you.

    One thing that comes back to me time and time again is that people all over the world have the same potential. One thing that has led me to that conclusion is geekdom. Racism or most other -isms would just get in the way.

    • Don't give me that crap. Look at how women and other religions are treated in Saudi Arabia before you spout off.

      Women aren't even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia and they have religious police that murdered school girls by not allowing them out of a burning building because they where not 'dressed' correctly. When you make the decision that dress in more important than the lives of kids you are a majorly fucked up society.

      I could go on, but I have work to do. If you wish, please feel free to continue
      • by Anonymous Coward
        Women aren't even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia
        You say that like it's a bad thing...
      • you are a majorly fucked up society.

        when you have to have metal detectors at schools you are in a majorly fucked up society. something to think about.
        • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:59PM (#8008542)
          *yawn* Two wrongs don't make a right.

          Or to be specific:

          The existence of evil in America does not change, mitigate or otherwise affect the existence of greater evil in Saudi Arabia.

          (And if your post was 'Insightful', I'm Toxie the Toxic Avenger.)
        • when you have to have metal detectors at schools you are in a majorly fucked up society. something to think about.

          Those metal detecters are there because a handfull of people went nuts, The US saw a problem and is trying to rectify it. What has S.A. done to prevent locking children in and setting them ablaze? Oh wait, it was thier idea in the first place.. Yeah I can see how much worse the U.S. is.....

          What happens in the U.S. can only be compared if we are NOT activly trying to do something about it
      • Women aren't even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia and they have religious police that murdered school girls by not allowing them out of a burning building because they where not 'dressed' correctly. When you make the decision that dress in more important than the lives of kids you are a majorly fucked up society.

        Is this *more* or *fewer* dead kids than all school shooting victims in the US in the past year? I'm thinking there is more than one fucked up society here...

        • by corbettw ( 214229 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:44PM (#8008466) Journal
          Fourteen little girls burned to death in the Saudi fire.[1] [hrw.org] I couldn't find a reference for the past year, but for the year July 1, 1999, to June 30, 2000, there were sixteen homicides in schools where the victims were children.[2] [usdoj.gov]

          So while more kids died in school shootings in the US for the years sampled than little girls burned to death in Saudi Arabia, you have to keep some other factors in mind:
          1: Saudi Arabia has a population of roughly 24 million. The US has a population of roughly 290 million. So for the two statistics to be equilivant, there would've had to have been 193 school shootings in one year. As is, the ratio of deaths is much lower in the US.
          2: People in the US recognize that school shootings are a problem. We take active steps to counter them, and from all indications those steps are working. The Saudis didn't seem to care that little girls burned to death, there haven't been any major sweeping changes of the Ministry for the Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue.
          3: When school kids kill each other with guns, it is a criminal act not sanctioned by the government. When Saudi authorities lock little girls in their school and make them burn to death, it is a criminal act sanctioned by the government.
      • by Bombula ( 670389 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:34PM (#8008393)
        It's easy to rant against the ills of an entire society. America is a big target too, from the most deaths by guns, world's biggest gangs and sickest criminals (more serial killers than everyone else put together), largest corporate crimes, largest environmental crimes, state-sanctioned murder, blurring lines between church and state, right-wing fundamentalist nutcases, elections that make a mockery of democracy, KKK and entire regions thick with racist, ignorant scumbags - on and on and on.

        The whole point of this article, which is seemingly lost on the above poster, is that in contrast to whatever vast societal differences may separate individuals, we can share many things in common - often on profoundly meaningful levels.

        As an American aid worker living and working in the middle east, I can tell you point blank that the reason why there is conflict between our two societies is because there are assholes on both sides. The above post is demonstrative of that fact.

      • Look at how women and other religions are treated in Saudi Arabia before you spout off

        Think about how the Americans have conducted themselves around the world before you spout off. Some of the highlights include the genocide against the native Americans, slavery, and government sanctioned discrimination against those people until very recently, the supply of arms to these very same r'egimes, supplying arms to central America, etc, etc.

        And at least in muslim countries you know that Islam is the law of
    • You're a geek if you are passionate about something nerdy, but still have social skills of some sort.

      Isn't that still a nerd? I think geek is the more hardcore nerd without the social skills. :-)

      z
    • by autopr0n ( 534291 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:01PM (#8008163) Homepage Journal
      In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.

      Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.

      Please. Most American geeks tend not to be white-supremacists or anything like that because modern American culture abhors that kind of thinking. You won't find any kind of "racist" anywhere, unless you look very hard.

      On the other hand, have you ever read slashdot? Look at all the anti-Indian hysteria in any thread about H1-B or off shoring. It's the same unthinking "us vs. them, they're taking our jobs" attitude that all racism is borne out of. Maybe they won't take the final step to true racism (i.e. anyone of Indian decent == bad), but it's just as bad (any Indian == bad job stealer).

      A couple years ago, there was an article about a fiber-optic link around Africa. I was shocked when I read the comments. People were pissed, like it was some kind of a waste (even though it was being done by African countries expecting to make a profit). The racist comments in that thread were beyond the pail.

      Geeks have just as much capacity for ugliness as anyone else. I'm willing to bet that "geeks" in SA have the same sort of opinions on religious diversity, women's rights, etc that most of the country does, which is pretty bad.
      • class vs. race (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Doc Ruby ( 173196 )
        When people get mad at foreigners for "taking their jobs away", it's not racism - it's economics. People get just as mad when the foreigners are of the same race. It's rational competition. Even though it's wrong. People should be mad at their fellow countrymen, who run the corporations that offshore their jobs. Those suits get subsidized every which way to develop their corporations, then break the system that supports them by sending the labor dollar into an unconnected economy overseas. Geeks should see
      • by swillden ( 191260 ) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Saturday January 17, 2004 @04:27PM (#8009463) Journal

        In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.

        RTFA.

        One of the things that Saudi geeks are apparently actively discussing (privately) is how software development work makes it possible for women to work without incurring the wrath of fundamentalist Muslims. Sure, that's mainly because they can work from home so the fundamentalists never see them, but the point is that these Islamic geeks in Saudi Arabia are actively considering how they can utilize technology to allow women to work. Their goal is to exploit an untapped resource, but even if they're underpaid and hidden from sight, working women will have a new power and level of influence they've not had before -- and these geeks don't see any problem with that.

        Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.

        Or, in this case, hacking out more code.

        It's this sort of understated change that ultimately changes whole cultures. It's also precisely what a lot of the radicals are afraid of and can not stop, no matter how many car bombs they detonate.

  • by egg troll ( 515396 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:01PM (#8007706) Homepage Journal
    There is no comparison. Here in America we play Dungeons and Dragons. Over in the Middle East its Dunes and Djinis. Nope, nothing in common.
  • Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jabberjaw ( 683624 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:02PM (#8007709)
    Why wouldn't they be "just like us"?
    • Re:Umm... (Score:2, Informative)

      by DAldredge ( 2353 )
      Because they believe that women are lesser creatures that have next to no rights?

      Look at how women and other religious minorities are treated before you start saying that other geeks are just like them.

      Do some research.
      • Re:Umm... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Haeleth ( 414428 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:47PM (#8008059) Journal
        Because they believe that women are lesser creatures that have next to no rights?

        Look at how women and other religious minorities are treated before you start saying that other geeks are just like them.


        Um, they do? Show me the bit in the articles where it said that all the Saudi geeks were 100% behind the fundamentalist excesses of their government.

        I might as well conclude that all American geeks are creationists? After all, some people in your government are creationists, so obviously that applies to every member of the population too!
    • Re:Umm... (Score:3, Informative)

      by bstadil ( 7110 )
      Why wouldn't they be "just like us"?

      This is the scary part.

      Somehow you hoped that people in such a fucked up society that leaves little girls in a burning school as they were not dressed correctly, were different.

      I for one would like to be able to point to a special aberrant gene causing this crap.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:02PM (#8007713)
    In Saudi Arabia the Linux zealot will blow himself up when his company goes with a Microsoft solution.
  • I, for one... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by inode_buddha ( 576844 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:02PM (#8007715) Journal
    think it would be great if we all actually *did* get along just once. If geeks can help that, so much the better!
  • Well.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by DAldredge ( 2353 )
    Save for the fact that they treat women like lesser beings that have next to no rights...

    • Those are the Saudis in general. Let's not assume every Saudi agrees with that. I imagine many of them don't, in fact.

      How would you like it if they said "let's remember that every American likes to invade Arab countries and believes the Second Coming is at hand"?
      • > Those are the Saudis in general. Let's not assume every Saudi agrees with that. I imagine many of them don't, in fact.

        So you are saying "In general Saudis are like that but not the majority of them"?

        That makes no sense at all.
    • by The Tyro ( 247333 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:41PM (#8007996)
      to work in Saudi Arabia, and after some thought, elected not to do so. I spent some time there during a military stint, and had the opportunity to interact with a number of Saudis (in the medical field, which is what I would have been doing there).

      I discussed the job possibility with my wife (the money was very, very good), but her life would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse in that country. Women there (particularly foreign, christian women) do NOT have the same rights as men. Among other things, you can be detained by the religious police (different from the regular police) if you are a female out in public, not accompanied by at least one male relative. Not wearing an abayah (female headgear) in public is asking for trouble.

      I should point out that lots of westerners live in walled compounds, so you don't really have to interact with the regular population if you don't really want to... but who wants to be cooped up in a walled compound for a year or two? The security we had at our military base was ridiculous (and necessary), and the compounds did not have the same level of security. Remember those car bomb attacks in Riyadh last year? They wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance at our military compound... that's the kind of security I'm talking about.

      It's a very different culture, and a tough environment to walk into as a freedom-loving american... despite the excellent cash compensation. You really have to bite your tongue, be polite, keep your opinions to yourself, and be a gracious guest. Saudi justice is not american justice (in court, if it's a muslim's word against a christian's word, the christian can lose automatically) You're NOT a citizen there, and if you forget that detail, you can get yourself in serious trouble.

      Good money, and I'm sure they could use a few geeks... but know what you're getting yourself into. Lots of TCNs (third country nationals) work there... Britts, French, etc, and some of them seemed to like it... but it wasn't for me.
      • by Bombula ( 670389 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @02:12PM (#8008612)
        Bear in mind that there are vast differences between the different countries of the Gulf. The national identities of their societies go back millennia. I live in Oman, which a very progressive and pro-western country.

        First to dispel some misconceptions: The women on the roads here think it is just as crazy that their counterparts in Saudi can't drive. Alcohol is available at hotels, restaurants, and in liquor stores. There is essentially no dress code for visitors, and we see plenty of tank tops and belly-button rings. Women don't wear veils or always black, because that's not part of Islam - that's a recent part of Saudi culture. Plenty of women wear jeans and t-shirts. Birth control pills are available at subsidized rates and are encouraged. And of course there are all of the modern ammenities you'd expect: water, power, cheap gas, shopping malls, movie theaters, Starbucks and McDonalds and satellite TV, just like everywhere else.

        Second, there are a number of ways in which life here compares favorably to life back home (I'm American): in day to day living, things are less oppressive here. When you get pulled over by the cops, you get immediately get out of your car and shake hands with the cop and exchange pleasantries. You would get shot doing this where I lived in LA. Speaking of getting shot, there are no guns here. Well, there are rifles of course, but murder is exceedinly rare. In fact, the last one was some Texan woman who murdered her oil-worker husband with the aid of her son. There is virtually no crime to speak of at all. No metal detectors in schools, no looking over your shoulder in dark alleys, no worries or concerns about getting carjacked or mugged or harassed in any way. I rarely lock my car, never lock my house. Punishment for crimes is indeed swift, certain and severe, but a trial by jury is guaranteed - kind of like small-town USA. Medical care? Free. For everyone, foreign or Omani.

        Freedom? There sure seems to be. All citizens vote for parliament members. There are female doctors, professors, ministers - you're free to choose to do whatever you want with your life. Freedom of religion too. A couple of my jewish friends have been out to visit and loved this place. You're much more free here to go where you like, camp where you like, eat and drink and smoke where you like. Cops in Arizona (well, rangers), in the middle of nowhere, busted me for trespassing and not camping at a designated campsite. And here I was used to rolling up any old place, pitching a tent, making a fire, cooking up some pork sausages I picked up from the local supermarket, surfing and fishing wherever I chose.

        Next to my folks' house in California people had a 'vote no on prop 22' sign on their front lawn (the bill that would have allowed gay marriage, which was voted down). Racial hate crimes and general tension are vastly greater in the states than here - Oman is historically a melting pot because of all its sea-faring trade. Oh, and unlike in here, I needed a license to catch a fish and a permit for wherever I wanted to go fishing back in California.

        The point of all this is that things are never black and white, and these countries out here are almost nothing like what the evening news and our elected officials would have us believe.

    • Re:Well.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by C10H14N2 ( 640033 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:56PM (#8008124)
      I find it interesting that ANY attempt to portray any other aspect of Saudi life, with all that implies, that doesn't include the familiar propaganda, which of course may be true, is met with furious opposition as any statement other than the party line on the subject should be put down.

      The articles in question were vignettes on a much more human, reasonable side of Saudi life. Oh, the heresy. These complaints smack of 1980's propaganda about the Soviet Union wherein any attempt to humanize even the most lowly of citizens on the other side to a degree that didn't fit that approved portrayal was viewed as practically treasonous.

      If the articles concluded that Saudi Arabia was a wonderful idyllic land of nothing but brotherly and sisterly love with no social problems, fine, fire away. However, the writer has acknowledged the problems and chosen to move on, leaving that analysis to the droves of writers that have already written volumes on the subject and continue every day.

      This sort of journalism illustrates what isn't on the standard yellow journalistic boilerplate and does so with integrity. The endless spewing of vitriol at such an objective account shows the fragility of the standard-issue American view on all things foreign and belies its assumed basis in truth.
  • To be honest, I found the article [newsforge.com] on the takeup of Linux more interesting than whether or not geeks in another country are just like us. The fact that Linux is being used in the space infrastructure of Saudi Arabia will no doubt help to accelerate its adoption in poorer countries such as the Indian south subcontinent and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I was also impressed by the sheer standard of Linux knowledge displayed by the Saudi computer expert [newsforge.com] considering that over there in the country they es
  • by Anonymous Coward
    When you can actually post a story about perceived differences it only goes to show that you harbor some sort of mentality which seperates you from the next man/geek whatever.

    The essence of this topic is that we are all human beings besides different culture, attitudes and religions. When someone sits at a keyboard the way they use it is going to be most likely the same way you use yours; key layout may be different but they are still using their fingers to do the typing.

    A geek is a geek is a geek. Before
  • Yep. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:09PM (#8007769)


    > Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere

    Even the most rudimentary biological knowledge should have tipped you off that what's under the robes is just like what's under the jeans, kilt, or lederhosen.

  • by The I Shing ( 700142 ) * on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:09PM (#8007770) Journal
    They're just like the geeks in the USA, except that their non-existant girlfriends have fewer rights.
  • by utahjazz ( 177190 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:11PM (#8007779)
    I found at least a dozen anonymous surfing sites that let me view all the porn anyone could want in less than 30 minutes

    Surfing pr0n in Saudi and then writing about it. I hope he gets out of the country.
  • no.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by the_2nd_coming ( 444906 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:13PM (#8007797) Homepage
    in saudi arabia, geeks have the advantage of women being forced to marry them.....
    • Re:no.... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You think living with a woman that doesn't want to be with you would be fun? Hell would be like a holiday camp after that.
  • by pieterh ( 196118 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:14PM (#8007804) Homepage
    Ten differences between a Saudi geek and a Stateside geek:

    1. The Saudi geeks don't have cellars.

    2. They browse from right to left.

    3. Stateside geeks have longer hacking sessions, not being required to stop for prayers every few hours.

    4. Saudi geeks have better weather.

    5. Saudi geeks drink tea, while stateside geeks drink coffee.

    6. Saudi geeks get more work done, not reading Slashdot as often.

    7. Stateside geeks wear sandals, Saudi geeks wear Gucci.

    8. Stateside geeks rarely dress in white.

    9. Saudi geeks speak at least two languages - Arab and English. Stateside geeks hardly speak at all.

    10. Saudi geeks go camel-riding in the weekends. Stateside geeks don't have weekends.
  • Us? So what's us? I thought this is somehow international here...

    Unlike us, because we have a solid middle-class with kids that can afford to be geeks. Geeks whom may surf for porn, express their political opinion and whear stuff people are wearing on MTV.

    Where's that free, liberal solid middle-class in SA?
  • by Col. Panic ( 90528 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:18PM (#8007832) Homepage Journal
    it's a brotherhood.

    (someone corrects my syntax)

  • by presroi ( 657709 ) <neubau@presroi.de> on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:19PM (#8007835) Homepage
    Last week was an excellent example to see if geeks in Saudia Arabia work similar.

    As a part time team member of the (imho :)) excellent phpMyFAQ [slashdot.org], I am eager to (let) translate them into as many languages as possible (actually, I'm working on a Latin translation right now).

    Last time we got to know that someone from the Arabic community has done this already.

    Unfortunatly, my Arabic is still far too broken to be used in daily conversation or even letters. It took some time and attempts to get into contact with them. Well, it seems that this week, the phpmyfaq will be shipped as a version 1.3.9-pl2, introducing Arabic support, thanks to these great people.

    If someone speaks this beatiful language, he/she might check out these forum threads:

    swalif [swalif.net]
    or alqafelah [alqafelah.com]

    This is one of the arabic phpmyfaqs: ksavb.com [ksavb.com]. Pretty interesting style imho.

    The arabic language file was first spotted on albakr [albakr.net]

    Doesn't this look like the cute Arabic sister of freshmeat.net?
  • by Anonymous Coward
    ...people in glass houses don't throw stones unless your adulterous sister is inside.
  • by leoaugust ( 665240 ) <<leoaugust> <at> <gmail.com>> on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:22PM (#8007860) Journal

    Sadly, the Saudi Net filter doesn't stop spam. "If you could stop spam," I told Al-Hejery, "You could make a million dollars a day as a consultant for the U.S. government, and I'd even kick in some extra out of my own pocket."

    "If I could do that," he replied, "I would be a hero here, too."

    It does sound twisted, but because it is in context of a country where free speech is quite restricted - the thought did pop in my head.

    Could it happen that some day spamming techniques or "spammers" will be hired by people who want to exercise their free speech ? You could spam with censored information when every other means of getting your voice heard is suppressed ?

    Full Disclosure - I don't know spam. I have never sent spam. I don't like spam.

  • Given the oppresive attitude towards women in the strict, wahabi society of Saudi Arabia, how are women in tech treated?

    Women are already an overwhelming minority in the field, and I can imagine that it is not only uncommon, but very difficult for them to make even a minimal impact in the tech world there.

  • Now it's time for a little disclaimer: The Saudi Internet filters are easy to defeat. I found at least a dozen anonymous surfing sites that let me view all the porn anyone could want in less than 30 minutes, and I have viewed more online porn while testing the Saudi content filters than I had looked at in my entire life before this experiment.

    Dang, must be tough having his job. Now...the average reader might read this and think that Roblimo's lying just for the journalistic effect here, but read his sta
  • by LibrePensador ( 668335 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:22PM (#8007864) Journal
    Roblimo's article highlight -perhaps inadvertently- the important and profound differences between the open source and free software communities. While these communities collaborate as a practical matter, and may need each other for their survival, one is political and principled, the other pragmatic and concerned overall with technological imperatives.

    So is there a problem with this? I believe there is. You see, Microsoft, or any other software development house, can afford to optimize its development methodology or even start from scratch a la Apple, if it really became all that self-evident to them that they were technically and financially failing. So one of two things can happen:

    1) if they throw enough money at the problem, they will match our technical achivements. Apple started from scratch and has produced a decent OS built on top of BSD/Darwin/Mach. So it is doable.

    2) They do not match our technical achiviements. Yet at the end of the day, if the only thing we care about is having an open source operating system regardless of whether it advances the cause of freedom, then the labor of love of all these years will seem a little less meaningful to many of us. To me, it will be all seem pretty hollow.

    And here's where I have a problem with Roblimo's articles. He does not question the irony that the Saudy monarchy is using free software to exercise censorship and control. Even if some of can be circumvented, it is perversed to those that believe in Free Software to see this happen. And in respecting the freedom of the license, we must allow it, but we should call oppression by its name when we come across it and he did not have the guts to do it.

    He could have looked for hactivists in Saudi Arabia to see what tools they were using and how they were furthering the cause of freedom. He could have spoken to dissidents, but he didin't. It's easy to stay at a comfy hotel and write from the sidelines. It's easier to be an expectator paying lipservice to free softaware than to stand up for what free softare actually represents.

    In summary, being technically superior without being morally committed to the cause of freedom is a very hollow undertaking.
    • by Roblimo ( 357 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:54PM (#8008525) Homepage Journal
      1) I did not question the irony because I knew *you* would without my help.

      2) I did *not* stay in the hotel. I wandered all over Riyadh, and I met quietly with several social dissidents, but writing about them by name would not be safe -- for them. Sometimes it's better to leave a U.S. reader thinking less of me than to put someone's life in danger. At least *I* think so. You are free to disagree.

      3) I'm sure I'll eventually write other stories about Saudi Arabia that will go more deeply into the social/religious/political situation there, but not for NewsForge or Slashdot. There are other media where those stories would be more appropriate.

      - Robin

  • Isn't geekness just a culture where people worship technology. And from my experience they are very conservative in their way.

    so there is no fundamental difference in my eyes and especially no cultural gap for the saudis.

  • like us? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by enkidu87 ( 194878 )
    What are "we" like?
  • Hmmm (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LS ( 57954 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:33PM (#8007937) Homepage
    Does anyone else consider this topic to be implicitly racist? Arabs aren't fucking aliens. It reminds me of the Chris Rock joke (paraphrased):

    When Collin Powel considered running for president, all the white people mentioned that "He speaks so well. He speaks so well". How the fuck is he supposed to speak? "Ima be pres-o-dent!"

    geez.

    LS
  • Yes (Score:2, Funny)

    Yes they are, only thinner.
  • Bad Story!! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by killfixx ( 148785 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:35PM (#8007950) Journal
    This smacks of something out of a teen girls magazine!

    Are Muslim field hockey players just like us other girls?

    GAH!

  • by arasinen ( 22038 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:49PM (#8008072)
    It's not just geeks. It's not just USA and Saudi-Arabia.

    Physiologically people are quite the same. Some have folds in their eyes, some have lost pigment from their skin and some have fat in different places. These are only cosmetical differences. Inside we're all the same.

    If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you'll see that the bottom layers are physiological, safety, and love. These are what every person in the world wants. They don't want to sit in the cold, they don't want to be hungry and they don't want to be afraid. (Yet some are.) And people want love and want to love.

    The only substantial difference between different nations is due to culture. Some are born in conservative countries, some in liberal. Others live in religious areas, others have secular rule. Yet despite this, people still practice arts, science, whatever. You have geeks in Saudi-Arabia and deeply religious people in USA.

    Whatever group of people you look, you'll find innovative people there. I recently received a revelation about this subject while reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. (Excellent book, recommended). His examples showed how people have adapted to all sorts of environments and made the best use of available resources. If this does not restore your faith in mankind, nothing will.

    It is true that there is a deep cultural divide between the Western world and the countries of the East, and I don't see the current political situation to lessen the situation at all. However, this is mostly due to ignorance. If you see two small children playing with toys, do you care if one of them is a Jew and another one an Arab? Do the children care? No.

    If Mr. Bush had met Mr. Hussein in a neutral and safe environment before the war, would they have fought with their bare fists. Probably not. Their nations fought one another, perhaps even their ideologies. But the people themselves... you can hardly ever find a good reason to strike at your fellow man. (This teaching, it would seem, lies at the heart of every religion. Sadly it is not observed very often.)

    The only way to fight this is to get rid of the prejudice and the fear. If you can, travel to different countries and try to see beneath the surface. People are the same, even in France. Try to learn about different cultures. If you can't spare the money, go to http://www.wikipedia.org/ and read about the different achievements of cultures both long gone and present. Read about their times of glory and downfall. Go to a library and read a book. (Once again I recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel".

    I'd like to end this rant with a quote from Charlie Chaplin. At the end of "The Dictator," the Jewish barber (who looks like Adolf Hynkel) gives a rather touching speech about universal harmony. (Emphasis mine.)

    "I'm sorry but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible; Jew, Gentile, black men, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each others' happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.

    In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls; has barricaded the world with hate; has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge as made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little.

    More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these things cries out for the goodness in man; cries out for universal brotherhood; for the unity of us all."
  • Article says (Score:4, Insightful)

    by $exyNerdie ( 683214 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @12:57PM (#8008142) Homepage Journal
    Conversations with geeks in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are similar to conversations with geeks anywhere, and most of the ones I have met so far are smart, young, single men who are addicted to the problem-solving aspect of programming.

    I know of many geeks who are not single. For the rest, it is the society/media that glamorizes football jocks and the thugs these days over people who are in the field of science/technology ....

  • I think that... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:02PM (#8008167) Homepage Journal
    Most people are just people trying to live their lives, with the nutbag assholes being in the vast minority. Unfortunately it doesn't take many nutbag assholes to ruin the image of everyone else.
  • by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:04PM (#8008188) Homepage
    It'll be the cheapest round you'll never buy!

    [leaps behind politically correct flame-proof wall]

  • by pair-a-noyd ( 594371 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @01:12PM (#8008249)
    "Roblimo concludes that under the robes,"

    Um, I don't know about you guys, but I really, really don't want to go there.

  • Space institute (Score:3, Interesting)

    by astrashe ( 7452 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @02:47PM (#8008848) Journal
    I guess I'll be blowing some karma on this one.

    The last thing I want to see is an Islamic country with a large fundamentalist population picking up expertise in missle technology.

    The fight against nuclear proliferation is being lost, but at least we (Americans, I guess I should say) have some protection from the difficulties associated with targeting long range missles.

    Saudi Arabia is an ally, and I don't want to run them down. But they're an ally that doesn't have a lot of ability to control its technology and funds. Pakistan is in the same category. These countries are allies, but there are people with high positions in the militaries and intelligence services of both countries that are very hostile to the US.

    The standard geek way of looking at space technology is either naive or deliberately ignores some basic facts. It's military technology.

    The space race with Russia was not undertaken to beam cool pictures of guys walking on the moon to the folks at home. It was because we felt we had to be better at building ICBMs and cruise missles than the Russians.

    Our skill with satellites gives us intelligence and the ability to coordinate our forces on the ground, and to target our weapons much more precisely.

    That's what this stuff is really for. Bush knows it, the Saudis know it, the Pakistanis know it, the Russians know it, and the EU knows it.

    The HST is amazingly cool. The mars rover is incredible. They do spend some money on pure science. I'm glad they do.

    But if you look at space technology purely as geeky goodness, and not as (at the very least) dual-use military technology, then you aren't looking at the space program in a realistic way.

    And for the record, under Saudi law RobLimo could have been decapitated for pulling up that porn while he was on Saudi soil. The government looks the other way when Westerners do stuff like that, but it is the law.

    The fact that he pulled up the porn under those circumstances, to check the filter, makes me wonder about how well he understands the people he was covering.

  • by Arab ( 466938 ) on Saturday January 17, 2004 @03:44PM (#8009202) Journal
    I dont even want to comment on how many camel jokes i read in that list of posts, I'm not offended but to be quite frank you are playing up to a stereotype of ignorance.

    Saudi geeks are much like any other geeks, religion is not a factor in being a geek, culture is not a factor in being a geek, just a love of what you do and in the case of computer geeks it's computers.

    Having lived in saudi for the first 18 years of my life before going away to university I'd say that saudi geeks are the same as they are anywhere. if anythign the "restrictive" society leads more people to be introversive and there are more people that spend far too much time in front of computer screens, there are also a surprising number of women that go on to do degrees in computing, which one can assume is and extension of their geekiness.

    I've seen geeks around the world and they are the same, we dont ride camels to work, or flying carpets, we don't have hot and cold running oil.

    In the city I live in there are entire shopping malls dedicated to selling computer parts, every where you go you are hassled by people who are trying to sell you pirated software. computers are an enourtmous thing here, because there is nothing else to do. some people use their computers to play games, some people use them to mess around with photos, some use them to hack about with code, some just spend hours surfing the net and talking to people that they normally wouldn't be able to talk to in person due to the restrictions of the society (mainly the opposite sex, regardless of which sex they are, there is little intermingling for most people but some are more liberated.)

    anyway it's nice to see that everyone is so openminded and such and that being at the frontiers of counter culture you aren't swayed by stereo types...

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