Telstra To Put Linux On Desktop 313
StArSkY writes "The Australian has an article today outlining how Telstra, Australia's largest Telco, is switching to Linux and open source on the desktop. Their pilot has been quite successful, and improved stability has been noticed. On trial are Star Office, Gnome, Mozilla and Wyse. Spending AUD$1.5 Billion a year on IT, means Telstra using Open Source is a massive boost to Open Source developers and support professionals. Not mentioned in the Article is that Telstra also just Dumped IBM Global Services, and will be running IT in-house again! Telstra will be hiring Linux-savvy people I think..."
hey steve (Score:5, Funny)
Re:hey steve (Score:3, Informative)
Re:hey steve (Score:4, Interesting)
Telstra is f**ken huge, this is a big deal in Australia.
Telstra was a monopoly till fairly recently (about 15 years ago they got their first competitor) and they still control all the telephone ground lines in Australia.
If Telstra adopts Linux/GNU, there will be thousands of desktops using OSS software and more importantly $US millions spent on research and development, most of which will be put back into the OSS community.
Re:hey steve (Score:4, Insightful)
If they do cut $750 million from their IT budget alot of that is going to come in the form for Australian IT workers (be they working for Telstra or IBM).
VMWare? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:VMWare? (Score:4, Informative)
What you miss is, that with these options, they are saying that it is more cost-beneficial to go with Linux, even if you have to support a bare-bones NT install as well. That's saying a lot.
Re:hey steve (Score:2, Interesting)
Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:3, Insightful)
Regarding their use of Linux, "even the Devil may cite Scripture for his purpose".
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:5, Funny)
Enough about Microsoft, tell us what you think about Telstra?
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:5, Funny)
They're still half government owned, so we get the worst of both worlds in that respect
Enough about Microsoft, tell us what you think about Telstra
Nah, MS owns half the government.
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:5, Insightful)
Telstra is a company of questionable ethics, do you think they are looking at this from the OSS comunity's point of view? No, they are looking to exploit it. They are trying to cut costs, which in the long run is easiest to take care of by reducing how many people you need to maintain the network. If that's their goal, then what's going to happen here is that your software, if you have code that is going to be used their, is going to be exploited to create fewer IT jobs.
Sure, they are supposed to contribute source back in, but what's to stop them if they don't. AFAIK, nobody has ever been forced by law to contribute source back in. Then again, mabey they will.
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:3, Informative)
Questionable ethics is a good sign (Score:5, Insightful)
"Create fewer IT jobs" is also good, if it means more efficient methods to produce the same goods and services with fewer people. It is called productivity increase, and free software has a great potential for that. Increasing productivity is the only thing that can make a society richer. It is sometimes resented by workers in fields that experience less demand, but that is a temporary effect until the job market has adjusted to the new situation.
One of the reason I release my software freely is that I hope it will be "exploited" as you call it. I just don't want to find myself in a situation where I have to compete with non-free versions of my own software, which is why I protect it with the GPL. As long as people keep their changes to themselves, that is find But if they share them, they have to share them freely.
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, given that it's likely to be internal use only, there's no legal requirement for them to contribute any of those source changes back. They're only required to distribut source for copies that go to external users.
On the other hand, it's very much to their advantage to contribute most of their sour
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:5, Insightful)
They're not adopting Linux because it's good or bad for OSS. They're adopting Linux because it's good for them.
And in the end, that's what OSS's goal is: making the best software for whoever wants to use it. That includes companies. Even evil companies. And personally, I think that's just fine.
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:3, Informative)
"The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization.
But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make t
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:2, Interesting)
This is something that most ex-goverment companies turned private have in common. Telecommunication companies like Telia (Sweden) and Telenor (Norway) are exactly like that. Our goverments are so moronic that they think small independent companies can compete on fair grounds with these behemoths. In Norway, the private company Netcom got lucky and tapped in on the virgin land of digital cellphones in the early 90's.
Together with Telenor, they have a monopoly in GSM infrastru
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:2)
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm no fan of Telstra, but lets step back a bit here. Telstra don't break the law at every opportunity - they're not that stupid/evil. They do bend the rules whenever it suits them - legal law breaking!
Telstra is an amazing business. It has near-monopolistic control over every market it enters (all telecommunications, cable TV, Internet), yet its prices are definately not competitive.
If no-one was ever sacked for buying IBM, then there must be a lot of companies that say, "you can't go wrong buying from Telstra".
Re:Damn Telstra to the lowest pits of hell. (Score:5, Funny)
I agree with you... (Score:5, Insightful)
That being said, we can be glad that they are switching to Linux, because a) it demonstrates that there are sound economic reasons to make the switch (because there's no way in hell Telstra would do it for any other reason), b) they will either employ Linux hackers or pay desktop Linux companies to customise the solution for them, c) a very big company has decided to break the Office file format monopoly, and d) maybe they will be more inclined to support Linux for their customers now that they are running it en masse.
Actually govt monopolies rule (Score:2)
Look at the mobile phone mess with 3+ carriers. Costs would be a lot less if one carrier had 100% of the market. Take even just driving down the highway, instead of all 3+ networks having cells along the route, only 1 network of cells would be needed, meaning a monopoly would cut mobile phone network costs in half.
But, but, but, what stops them charging whatever they wa
Where will they get cheap Linux-savy people ? (Score:5, Funny)
Outsourcing companies rejoice! India rejoices. US, UK drink wine in the park!
He's right (Score:5, Informative)
So So (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Where will they get cheap Linux-savy people ? (Score:2)
So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:5, Insightful)
-a
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:5, Interesting)
Probably about as much as the average home user spends on OSS...
To be quite honest, I'm surprised that more organisations haven't jumped on board the open source bandwagon; especially those who have a skilled IT department (Universities, Telcos, etc). I can understand small business owners wanting to toe the Microsoft line for the sake of being able to get advice from their buddies over red wine and dinner parties (or maybe it's the lack of OSS exposure?), but for those who know what they're doing and can afford to support it, there's savings to be had in open source.
Does anybody know how well Telstra pay? It could be time to dust off the ol' resume...
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:3, Informative)
Not sure about telcos, but lots of universities use OSS heavily, and even a number of banks (with the proud exception of PestWhack [westpac.com.au]) here in Australia are linux-friendly or at least non-linux-hostile.
Seems to me that the biggest sticks in the corporate mud for insisting on Microsoft are the Federal and State governments. I'm sure it's not becau
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:5, Informative)
In my line of work I've had a lot of contact with universities, and I must say I've barely seen a whisper of open source usage. Perhaps there are small departments here and there who are getting into it, but if so I'm yet to see it. Good on them if they are, however.
a number of banks (with the proud exception of PestWhack) here in Australia are linux-friendly
I'll put my hand up to being a Westpac customer, and I must say that I've never had any problems using their online banking, either on Linux or Windows (using both Opera and Mozilla Firebird on both operating systems). I have heard of people having lots of problems trying to do online banking on Linux, but I can't say I've ever heard Westpac's name mentioned in conjunction with that. FWIW, I think that Westpac's online banking is quite good compared to that of its competitors.
the biggest sticks in the corporate mud for insisting on Microsoft are the Federal and State governments
This is a landscape that is changing quite rapidly in Australia. The South Australian government is actively trying to pass a bill mandating that all government departments use open source software in preference to Microsoft, et al, where practical. A number of other state governments, including Queensland and (I think) Victoria are watching the case with interest, and if it is a successful program, will more than likely move down the same path. I'm sure it won't be long before this sort of publicity reaches critical mass and other government and corporate entities start to take notice and make the shift.
Having said that, it wouldn't come as a surprise to me if I learned that MS, or other software companies with vested interests in government/big business, started offering financial incentives for these organisations not to switch over to open source...
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:3, Informative)
First - I am also a Westpac customer and I have not had any major problem with Westpac's on-line banking. When I first tried, Mozilla wouldn't render a number of links along the navigation sidebar down the left - that has now been fixed. I also find that a number of browsers (Safari at least) don't quite render the column widths correctly when viewing all your accounts. Slight inconveniences but still a workable system.
Second - the South Australian Government is not actively trying to p
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:2)
Know what? Those incentives are more likely offered to individuals. In an organisation, 2 or 3 people (CEO, CFO, CIO) are making decisions - it's lot cheaper to pay them than the organisation. The effect is exactly the same.
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:2)
And it's a good thing. I read today that the NSW government had signed up with MS for $400 mil or something. The good thing is that they screws them for a good deal with threats of going open source. Anything that stops MS from collecting their monopoly ren
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:3, Insightful)
**
yeah that explains(not) how there's dozens of opensource projects(heck, berkley software distribution.) that originate to universities. in our university(and other finnish unis) most desktops still run windows, but underneath and in server
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:2)
I'm not. With money as a motivator, the perception is there that the company will produce a product to satisfy you and keep working to improve it to make more money. With OSS... eh... you have to kind of hope that other people have used it to solve the same problem you have.
Before firing a flaming rebuttal at me, consider perceptions as opposed to the way things are or should be.
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:3, Interesting)
and actually you guys would be surprised the number of people/companies that run linux, the point is linux is silent, there wont be an outage caused by some worm/virus/maitnence like there is with microsoft, so you wont "hear" about someone running linux
(of course i am refering to server side software, desktop is another issue)
Re:So how much will be spent on OSS? (Score:3, Insightful)
It is probably much easer for them to do that then to say put in the budget that they are spending X on linux application development. They now have a large vested intrest in making sure it works for them, and wh
Still in `trials'. (Score:5, Funny)
Will we be surprised if, two months from now we hear: "Alas, all 500 test subjects hated it terribly; we'll stick with Windows. Oddly, they all seem to have inherited $1M from abroad.".
Re:Still in `trials'. (Score:2)
Re:Still in `trials'. (Score:2)
Telstra (Score:5, Interesting)
For the last couple of years they have been increasingly conservative, increasingly anti-competitive and increasingly stupid. They artificially inflate their Telstra Shop profits with their exorbitant call costs and line rentals (Really, charging $20/month to a rural person who makes 2 calls a month???). Not to mention how they ripped off millions of mum and pop investors with the whole T2 failure. However. Supporting Linux is a good thing, so ummm, I'm a little confused about how I am supposed to feel about Telstra now...
Re:Tel$tra (Score:2, Interesting)
http://whirlpool.net.au/article.cfm/1183?show=rep
for those who are unfamiliar with good ol tel$tra
Training, not hiring (Score:3, Interesting)
The article mentions training costs, so I doubt that they'll be hiring. Looks like they're going to attempt to re-train the current staff. Or at least those staff that aren't in India.
Reducing outsourcing (Score:2)
If they are stopping outsourcing stuff to IBM GSA they are certainly going to need extra people to cover it. (Of course, a lot of those people will probably be poached from IBM GSA...)
And so the flood begins... (Score:5, Interesting)
Then, somebody asks: "What about..."? - and it works there, too.
And then somebody else asks: "Well, it worked here, what about..."? and it's good enough there, too.
This process continues until some major company decides to bet their farm on it - and it's good enough for that.
Suddenly, everybody sees it. Everybody recognizes the value. This is a turning point. One of many, but one of the big ones.
Linux is now widely recognized as "the future". As a Linux user, I routinely have conversations where Linux is "the future" and it's not questioned anymore.
With paying clients. And other vendors.
Linux is on its way. In 10 years, it'll be the default, like Windows is today still.
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:5, Interesting)
In 10 years, it'll be the default, like Windows is today still.
If Linux is the New Windows, it makes me wonder what will be the New Linux... maybe some project that is barely out of gestation today?
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe a HURD kernel? Maybe BSD? Maybe a Windows Kernel that leverages on others work instead of trying to destroy it.
This isn't about linux per se, its about software freedom.
Thats freedom for little guys and freedom for behemoths like Telstra.
If not for MS's licensing 6.0 this would have happened several years later, that decision dramatically reduced complacency and intertia in corporate IS departments.
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:2)
plus it's proprietary and kinda closed.
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:2)
My precious Amiga.... Did you hear that? There's hope for us.......
The New Linux? Nobody will care (Score:2)
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:2)
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:And so the flood begins... (Score:2)
Good news, questionable company (Score:4, Interesting)
I very much think that in 15 or 20 years it will be this current age we remember as being the watershed moment where the "technological civilization" is realized.
Sadly, from what I understand (not being an Aussie myself), Telstra is a horribly and unfairly run/administered corporation, that often reaks of anti-competitive behavior, viz:
"Australia's Broadband Woes" [ectnews.com] [http://ectnews.com].
Improved Profit (Score:4, Informative)
Telstra 1 Shares were offered around $3.60 (Australian), and peaked in late 1999 at $9.15 (Australian).
Telstra 2 Shares were offered at $7.40 (Australian) in late 1999, and are currently trading at just over $5.00 (Australian)
http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/eddesk.
Share Info.
To the Telstra haters (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, loving Telstra for moving to linux may still be hard cause quite frankly Telstra sucks. But you guys have gotta start doing what I have been doing for a year now. Become a telephone whore.
I've never stayed with one company for more than about 4 months before I switch to some new 'welcome back' plan another phone company is offering. The only way services will increase while prices drop is if there is considerable competition. Do your bit for Australian telecommunications and be a phone whore.
I must admit I am currently with Telstra but Optus has offered me a 'hard to refuse deal' to come back to them. I'm just waiting to see if my local Telstra affiliate Cooee will beat them both.
So change you phone companies like you change your undies ... once a quarter.
Re:To the Telstra haters (Score:2)
Why so often? Turn 'em inside out, and wear them for a second quarter. Think of the environment, think of the phosphates you're pumping into the ocean with that quarterly washing cycle! Sheesh!
Perhaps some of the IT savings.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Cost Cutting (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know if Telstra are doing this because of the benefits that Open Source could provide, or cause they've been told to save money.
I just hope that they get it right for once. They seem to have enough trouble with their Microsoft products.... (the school's system in South Australia -- run by Telstra -- was down for three hours due to the Blaster worm on Monday, as was a number of Telstra dialup and e-mail....)
IBM Global Services (Score:5, Interesting)
Telstra is probably saving more by ditching IBM Global Services than switching to Linux. The businessI work for outsourced all desktop support to IBM Global Services to save money a while ago and employee productivity has dropped due to the poor care of the desktops. They still have not addressed the Blaster and Welchi worms after weeks -- they never patched the desktops. IGS doesn't judge success based on employees being productive but how many "tickets" they can clear. Clearing a ticket does not mean a problem is solved, it just means they were able to push a problem on someone else. Even IGS employees call their ticket system, "ManageNow", "MangleNow". Its freaking scary what they do to you!
If you here that IGS is taking over your support, quit your job! You life will be less frustrating.
Re:IBM Global Services (Score:2, Insightful)
At my former work Siemens got a contract to support the IT and everything was hell for 3 months, then it got a bit better but still didn't work right.
Anyway the point is - it all depends on the contract and what the company decided they wanted to pay for - the problem usually is that alot of the stuff that IS usually does isn't included in the contract.
I have worked with IBM and IGS on some occations and only have positive impressions from that -
Re:IBM Global Services (Score:4, Informative)
Telstra had a subsid. company named Advantra. Advantra was a SME outsourcer. IBM owned 1/3, Telstra owned 1/3.
IBM has a subsid SME outsourcer named IBM GSA. IBM owns 1/3, Telstra owns 1/3.
Both of these companies had a role in the support of Telstra desktops and resources. Things have changed. Advantra has since, after a name change, been integrated back into Telstra, after IBM dropping it's investment in the company. GSA has become a legacy problem for Telstra, who are looking to insource again. GSA is also looking to insource (as Telstra handles significant portions of GSA's services to customers).
It's just a cleaning up exercise.
Not surprised (Score:2, Interesting)
Projects were also often taken into production in horrific and unfinished state, leaving the support teams the unenviable task to finish the project while simultaneously handling operations and customer fault reports.
The last month I worked
Re:IBM Global Services (Score:3, Interesting)
I was installing and maintaining firewalls. My bigest complaint was the amount of work that served for nothing. (ie 2 days of working on a presentation, and no one shows up to see it), and those were usually to encourage us (IBM) to use our own products rather than purchase from the competition. We had OS/2, which at t
Boo-urns (Score:5, Insightful)
Who knows, maybe the money they save can be put towards letting people connect to their 'broadband' [whirlpool.net.au] service, which they kindly cap at 3gb/month [whirlpool.net.au]? Or maybe educating [whirlpool.net.au] our [theregister.co.uk] communications minister? [theregister.co.uk]
While it's nice to hear that Telstra are switching to Linux, this hardly makes them a good company - they're still monopolistic and evil, as I'm sure any Australian who's tried to get decent broadband will tell you.
Re:Boo-urns (Score:2, Interesting)
I tried for one month to get decent (better than 1kbytes/second) speed out of my modem, and was on the phone to the Testra Bigpond helpdesk for perhaps 5 hours all up.
I basically had two settings incorrect on my PC, they did not offer any useful advice on finding them, they were obsessed with getting me to reinstall windows, explorer, their cd and modem strings. Which I did, many times. Finally I found what was wrong, predictably enough it was none of th
Re:Boo-urns (Score:2)
For me, you can drop the word 'decent' from that sentence: I can't get broadband at all. I'm on crappy 33.6k dial-up: can't get cable (cable doesn't go past my house), can't get adsl (exchange isn't enabled), and can't afford either satellite or isdn. What's more, the wife doesn't want to move (at least, not for those reasons...), and I'm too cheap to buy a 56k modem for a small increase in speed, only for it to become obsolete when I can g
They are going with diversity (Score:4, Informative)
This is a win for everybody---well, except for HP-UX, which they're dropping.
The point is, each different type of system has filled an important niche. Linux for the thin client front-ends and the financial database, Solaris for the web server and for scalability, and Win?? for "the simple stuff." (Can you say "role reversal?")
Well, some of those specifics are off, as I need sleep. But I think I conveyed my general point here.
Duuuude... it's symbiosis... so beautiful, man...
Re:They are going with diversity (Score:3, Insightful)
Contrast this with Sun, who are continuing to develop the Sparc architecture, the new UltraSparc processors will provide full backwards compatibility with even the first generation of sparc processors, and the new versions of the Solaris OS also provides backwards compatibilty
Re:They are going with diversity (Score:2)
Telstra are.
Telstra are trying to shed themselves of employees at every possible opportunity. (This isn't factless ranting, this is published - browse through australianit.com.au's archives) Telstra are desperate for their share price to raise so the government is able and willing to sell t
Cost Cutting (again) (Score:4, Informative)
Telstra to Slash IT Bill in Half [afr.com] Interesting.
Telstra and Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux needs to rule the locked down computer stylings of the corporate desktop before it will have any chance of shaking up the home desktop market.
I remember the days when apples were easy and dos* was hard. The only reason my mum got a x86 was because that is what she used at work. These days Windows is easy and Linux is hard, but things are changing real quick.
Oppertunities like this are a great way for new users to be exposed to Linux. Lets just hope the exposure that telstra gives its employees is good one.
Never know, one of these days my mum may go out and buy one of these new 'linux' computers like the one that she uses at work.
Re:Telstra and Linux (Score:2)
Don't believe a word those bastards tell you.... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are only two reasons why Telstra would make a press release announcing their intention to use Linux:
(1) 'cos they've found a way to further screw their customers by their use of Linux, or
(2) 'cos they've found a way to further screw their competitors by their use of Linux.
That aside, if you go one step further, and read the article, you see that they're actually not using linux at all. They're beating around the bush with lines about XP and NT and Sun and HP-UX and Solaris and Linux and Citrix and XP-on-a-chip and you-name-it. The article is completely meaningless marketeer speak designed to trick some journo's into picking up on the key words "unix" and "linux", and it worked.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as happy as the next guy if a large corporate makes the switch to Linux, but that's not what this article is about. Never lose site of the fact that Telstra are evil. Every bit as evil as Microsoft or SCO.
Re:Don't believe a word those bastards tell you... (Score:2, Interesting)
Influx of good news (Score:5, Insightful)
Incidentally, it seems that most of the bad news seem to be coming from US, while the rest of the world is moving forward. Now what was the old world/new world again...
Bah (Score:3, Funny)
It's been done, I've had one for years.
If you RTFA (Score:3, Insightful)
Move along nothing to see here.
Mabey this is why they are switching. (Score:3, Informative)
Telstra has NOT dropped IBM (Score:4, Informative)
IBM Australia recently bought out Telstra and Lend Lease and so no IBM GSA is totally owned by IBM.
The outsourcing contract remains until 2007.
Excellent Now with the Money they save (Score:2)
Open Source J2EE? (Score:3, Insightful)
I never knew Sun was in the Open Source business with their J2EE server!
Or maybe they mean that in when Telstra writes their .net apps they will do that in the blind, not able to see their own code, local_echo=off?
Or they will release the source of any J2EE online billing application they write.
Or maybe the article's author is just using one too many buzz words...
Telstra (Score:3, Interesting)
As the article says, there are alot of Solaris and HP-UX systems already in place and the platform of choice when I was there was Unix. Of course, there will still be custom windows solutions for alot of their in-house products which will still need Windows, however since most of their stuff is done in-house, it wouldn't be a huge step in rewriting an app for a different platform.
Puts them in a good bargaining position with MS (Score:5, Interesting)
Telstra are one of Australia's largest Microsoft customers. They spend $AUD1.5Bn/year on IT (not all of this is on Microsoft)
They're now in a good position (having made this all public) to go to MS and say "We've got a problem. We give you too much money. Fix this problem and we can talk"
-kai
Re:Puts them in a good bargaining position with MS (Score:4, Funny)
Anyway, the Staroffice and J2EE deal went ahead and Micro$oft wasted the cost of Stev's time and trip.
Tp.
Telstra are horrible. (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe this means (Score:2)
Most of the problems I have to diagnose by telephone for work involve users who are invariably running different software than I am, which is a royal PITB. I can't be expected t
Heh (Score:2)
Viewpoints on Telstra should not change. (Score:3, Insightful)
In this thread, many people have pointed out how evil Telstra is (I won't repeat). They are yet another greedy, monopolistic telco. Some people point out these things but then mention they don't know how to feel about the telco because now they are supporting open source.
Let's make one thing clear: the software an organization uses doesn't make them good or bad in a moral or ethical sense.
In otherwords, all you people who are wondering how you should feel about Telstra should just continue hating them. If Microsoft switched to 100% open source software, I would not forget all the shit they've pulled. I would still argue that everything that can be done to make them go away or pay for their crimes should be done. That goes for this telco too (assuming they are as bad as some people say).
We can certainly use the fact they've switched to open source to our advantage, citing it as a success story and so on. However, that does not mean all those affected should go off and pat them on the back. If they were a nasty telco running Windows, they'll be just as nasty of a telco running Linux--and with more money in their pocket to continue doing nasty things.
Think about it.
Re:Unexpected (Score:2, Funny)
Err, what clueful roots? They've never had a clue and I doubt they'll inherit one within the next decade.
Re:OT Linux question (Score:3, Informative)
Downloads from Linuxiso.org [linuxiso.org]; also has pretty cheap "buy disk" links if you're on a modem. Also see Distrowatch. [gothicwolf.com]
Re:mod parent down, paste edited (politically) (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Harder in the US (Score:2)
When you go to the shop nearby they will happily sell you their clone-of-today, usually offering a much more modern machine for the same price, and you get get it without Windows.
But sure, when you want to have something from HP, Dell, IBM etc it will be Microsoft-tax-included.
Of course this involves only the operating system, which is pretty useless by itself. When you need additional software like Office,
Re:Harder in the US (Score:2)
Re:Harder in the US (Score:2)
I think many companies in US can save a lot of money too if instead of drooling they will start to
Re:Harder in the US (Score:2)
Mad hatter which is a "thick" client that runs Linux/Star-office/Evolution/Gnome and should* be selling for roughly half the price of the equivelent microsoft product.
*= product not released until Oct 5th
Re:Harder in the US (Score:2)
The U.S. is a market where this problem has been reduced. One of the few areas where MS has actually complied with anti monopolistic rulings is that they no longer insist that OEMs install Windows on every single computer they sell. That is, they are complying in the U.S.: in countries such as Japan, it is business as usual ...
Re:before or after (Score:2)
Re:before or after (Score:2)
Err, yes. Whilst they remain half-owned by the government they are influenced by government policy. (overseas outsourcing is bad, mm'kay?)
That's the reason why they're so desperate to be fully privatised. If it will increase profit to outsource all their front-line call centres to India or wherever, then as a fully independant, publicly listed company, they'll do i