Culture Clash: SCO, OpenLinux, Linus And The GPL 710
hobsonchoice writes "SCO has issued a letter saying SCO Linux customers won't be sued. The same does not seem to apply if using a non-SCO distribution such as RedHat." LightSail points to the SCO letter itself, and raises an interesting point: "If they approve the use of 'their' IP in Linux in a single kernel, then the GPL holds that IP SCO allows to be used by a select few must be freely released to any and all. It appears that all Linux users everywhere were just given a license to continued use of Linux even if SCO would win their suit with IBM." And Haikuu writes "eWeek recently posted an interview conducted by e-mail exchange with Linus Torvalds regarding his recent move to the OSDL and the SCO suit."
SCO Letter (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Interesting)
SCO thinks the GPL is a joke (Score:5, Interesting)
Same deal with GNU software. I rely on the GPL to know that my code is going into the public pool. I do it as a hobby and I don't get paid for my time, so my one recompense is knowing that some jerks can't steal my hours of labor. I give them as a gift for all the world and that is good enough for me.
When these "SCO" big-shots start attacking the GPL I take it personal, and so does anybody else who has written for Linux and GNU. I'm certainly not writing code to make SCO rich. They don't pay me, they don't like my "philosophy", well they can go piss up a rope because I'm getting tired of them walking all over the GPL like it somehow doesn't apply to them because they are "big-shots." Bullshit! They are a bunch of crack-heads if they think they can pull this swindle off. They got big balls, I'll give them that, but their big balls are gonna get kicked hard.
Re:SCO thinks the GPL is a joke (Score:4, Insightful)
Well then you better reevaluate why you work for free - even if it's a hobby. Hypothetically speaking, Microsoft could very well be making money off of your labor. They could use your program, modify it for their own internal use, and never give anything for it while they reap the benefits of your software.
Re:SCO thinks the GPL is a joke (Score:4, Funny)
Re:SCO thinks the GPL is a joke (Score:4, Informative)
Re:SCO thinks the GPL is a joke (Score:3, Flamebait)
People buy windows because they can get support for it, why should they be pissed off if someone tells them to call Microsoft and get support for it?
Re:SCO thinks the GPL is a joke (Score:3, Insightful)
Once again so what? Do I really care if some clueless twit isn't using linux? I am happy they aren't using linux. They should stay as far away from linux as possible. Using linux will in all likelyhood make their little heads explode.
There is no re
Re:SCO Letter (Score:4, Insightful)
Does anyone have a link to analysis of the RCU patents and copyrights? Up to this point everything i have seen has been very broad discussion about why people doubted SCO's claim was correct, but this seems like a smoking gun... SCO shows rcu code and rcu ip is shown to belong to sequent and bought by ibm? Would push me into placing a short position.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Informative)
http://lwn.net/Articles/36164/ [lwn.net]
Re:SCO Letter (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:SCO Letter (Score:4, Insightful)
But if you kept selling the book, in the full knowledge of what it contained, can you then renege on your contract with the purchasers and demand the books back? Hell no.
This is the situation SCO are now in. Even after their initial allegations against IBM, they continued both selling copies of Linux, and offering it for free download from their web site.
Clearly they were entering into a contract with those people, with the knowledge that Linux contains RCU, SMP, and whatever else. That contract is the GPL. SCO has no grounds to revoke their customers contracts.
*If* (and this seems awfully unlikely) IBM breached their contract with SCO, then SCO can sue IBM. That doesn't make a whit of difference to people who got a GPL licence to the kernel from SCO.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:4, Insightful)
In which case, normal copyright laws apply, which means you can't redistribute at all.
The problem with most EULAs is that they restrict rights after purchase. The GPL is completely different in that it adds rights under specific conditions. If you don't meet those conditions, you never had those rights to begin with.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't go around claiming a bunch of people illegally stole your work when you're part of those group of people. It's called failure to mitigate your own damages.
Same with your landlord. Your landlord's failure to enforce thet terms of the lease on others doesn't limit his rights to enforce them on you. But if you're lease terms say that you can't knock down walls in your apartment, and your landlord is swinging the sledgehammer with you, your landlord just lost his right to enforce that particular lease term on you.
Now my point is this: the reason they can't sue X and grant immunity to Y -- because by distributing the code, they are, as specifically stated in the GPL since NOTHING ELSE gives them the right to distribute the code, agreeing to the terms of the GPL. Which means if their code is in there, by distributing to Y and holding them harmless, their case for sueing X has basically been totally destroyed.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:3, Informative)
"SCO Group has assured its Linux customers that any company that's paying for Linux software and services from SCO Group is already paying for SCO's
SCO Confirms They Can't Use Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, what SCO Products [sco.com] might be affected by the GPL and IPL?
Re:liable to whom (Score:3, Insightful)
Crap, suppose you buy a gun to protect your family and property. If someone throws a stick at your house would you shoot them ? How about if they try to kidnap your family and burn your house ? Would you shoot them then ?
SCO is trying to kidnap our family and burn our property, it is time to use the most effective defense possible.
Exceptional circumstances demand exceptional action.
Exactly what constitutes a SCO customer (Score:5, Interesting)
The big question is, what constitutes a SCO customer? Must I have purchased SCO services with my download of the SCO linux distro, or can I simply make use of their distro to avoid the threat of legal action? How much of the SCO distro must I use?
Perhaps I should install a few packages on each of my Linux boxes, so as to avoid the the threat of lawsuits.
As I re-read this, it appears the letter is only directed to current and ongoing SCO partners. This suggests that possibly, not only would I have had to have purchase SCO services but I would have to continue to pay for SCO service contracts indefinately into the future. Then again, IANAL, so perhaps I have misinterpreted the legal implications of this letter.
--CTH
Re:Exactly what constitutes a SCO customer (Score:4, Interesting)
Nonetheless, I still contend that they are attempting to steal the work and IP of thousands of developers. That is wrong. That is theft.
Maybe the proper answer would be open-source, distributed lawsuits. Like, 10000 individual lawsuits against SCO, all at once, in every venue imaginable. Each of which can be resolved by them signing away all rights to all GNU software, and aside from that can only be resolved through them either fighting or losing case after case after case. I mean, if getting their lawyer to each venue costs only $500+10 hrs, but the lawyer is charging $50/hr [unheard of cheapo], then each time the lawyer has to show up, that's $1000. $1000 x $10,000 = $10 Million, times the number of times the lawyer has to show up.
I've picked my numbers low. SCO's legal fees could easily run into the billions, just for fighting the lawsuits.
Therefore, distributed attacking penguins could concievably work. Just arrange things so that if you win, or if SCO gives up all rights to GNU, it stops there, and they don't hit any other bumps. Be a gracious victor: the point is not to go to war, the point is to get out of the war intact as quickly as possible, and stay out where possible.
Someone mod parent down to 3 or 4 with overrated (Score:4, Interesting)
Quite honestly, although I consider my post to be interesting, I don't consider it to be insightful.
It may be inciteful, or not, but I'm not 100% sure it's good. I'm still of the opinion that the best wars are those that are never fought, and that wars have no winners, only losers.
So though I consider this as a trial balloon to think about and consider, I *don't* automatically consider this a good thing. And I don't find any particular insight in this. Insight is "seeing within". This posting, though, was as obvious as a guy carrying a scarecrow into a herd of penguins. I mean, slashdot thinks in terms of distributed function, right?
Now, insightful would have been if I had figured a way to finesse all of this, and completely drop off SCO's radar, and still leave SCO standing.
Thing is, I still don't hate SCO or Microsoft, even with all their criminal behavior. There is some good in every organization, just as there is some good in every city, because you don't get the organization without human trust. I just don't like it when it breaks bad.
Anyhow, someone mod this one down to 3 or 4. I wanted this balloon out there, but it's really not all that insightful.
- MickLinux [and yes, it's really me].
Re:Exactly what constitutes a SCO customer (Score:4, Insightful)
This is absolutely correct.
However. . .SCO did grant license at original aquisition, and made that license the GPL. You can find it right in the distro. They remain bound by it themselves.
This is the legal Scylla and Charybdis that SCO is attempting to navigate between. This is why they have to keep making new clarifications of their position every day. As they turn in one direction they begin to come too close to the danger on one side, then when they turn back they come too close to the danger on the other.
I think there's a general consensus that if they keep it up sooner or later they're going to go down the hole or get smashed on the rocks, there is no clear route through, other than somebody sending out the Coast Guard to rescue them with a sweetheart buyout deal.
KFG
Re:Exactly what constitutes a SCO customer (Score:3, Informative)
Either SCO are about to become the richest and most powerful company in the industry, or they're about to have something unpleasant happen.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Informative)
It would be, except that they're still distributing [sco.com] said product.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Informative)
What have you got to say for yourselves now, dumbasses? This may not contain the exact stuff that they're all worked up about (although it sounds like they want to claim RCU entirely), but it is a patch for source that does contain the offending material and therefore a derivative work.
Re:SCO Letter (Score:3, Interesting)
However, over here:ftp://ftp.sco.com/pub/scolinux/server/4.0/up d ates/SRPMS [sco.com] are four files that claim to be "kernel-source" but strangely contain the string "nosrc" as well.
This one in particular: kernel-source-2.4.19.SuSE-82.nosrc.rpm [sco.com] contains a file called patches.i386.tar.bz2 which in turn contains a file called 8975_NUMAQ.
That seems to be a kernel patch dealing with something related to NUMA, and contains GPL references.
Is
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Informative)
Re:SCO Letter (Score:5, Interesting)
And according to the terms of the GNU General Public License, if you can't satisfy patent laws AND the terms of the GPL simulataneously you have no right to use the code at all.
Does this mean that SCO, by telling their users it's alright, is violating GPL? I'm not a lawyer, but I know a bit about IP law. But this whole mess is confusing even me, especially since SCO keeps saying conflicting things.
My head hurts now. I wonder if I can sue SCO for medical bills and psychological trauma?
The most important line in the letter is... (Score:4, Informative)
In other words, they have every intention of continuing to distribute Linux to at least some of their current customers. They have not only violated the GPL in the past, but they are planning to violate it in the future.
Re:Bad analogy (Score:5, Interesting)
They actually can't do whatevery they want with their IP.
dynamic IP (Score:5, Funny)
I have dynamic IP.
Yesterday I owned the rights to Wireless Toasters, and the day before it was me who invented a certain sort of plastic sheathing suitable for undersea cables, tomorrow it may be me who invented tcp/ip!
Oh the excitement of dynamic IP...
graspee
Re:SCO Letter (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't see any reason why the GPL would be invalidated, however. The GPL grants people rights that they do not have under normal copyright law, unlike most licenses that seek to remove rights. There are rules that the distributors have to follow in order to be granted the GPL rights, but it's hard to see how that could possibly be a problem. If it was invalidated, the court would be saying that the GPL grants people additional rights that are too restrictive. That's not logically coherent. And the GPL doesn't prevent anyone from asserting IP rights. By agreeing to follow the terms of the GPL, they are agreeing to not assert additional IP rights over that code. The agreement is the important part. Nobody is forced to distribute GPL'd code, it is done by choice. Any loss of IP rights on the part of SCO is because they chose to give them up.
looks better with line breaks (Score:3, Funny)
Linux will always prosper
so will IBM
Is it worth it? (Score:3, Funny)
How much suffering would you have to endure before you'd use Caldera on all your servers to make it stop?
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:5, Funny)
At this point, I think it would take me and my loved ones being flogged with bundles of stinging nettles that have been dipped in hot sauce and rolled in salt, while listening to Celine Dion sing that Titanic song accompanied by an orchestra of bagpipes. In Hell.
Re:Is it worth it? (Score:5, Funny)
Companies just don't get that GPL means business.. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's almost as if the GPL is too "far out" and too liberal for anyone in corporate America to really believe it's real or take it seriously; they seem to think they can just pretend like it isn't there and the courts will wink and understand. As more and more cases end up in court (as the SCO case looks like it will), I wonder if we'll start to see a shift away from "those free software kids don't have a REAL license, this GPL thing is just a toy" to "these are dangerous commies that threaten our entire economy and for that reason the courts must ignore what they're doing and side with us!"
Sort of like the end of segregation and the Vietnam war protests in the US, both things that much of the older generation simply couldn't understand beyond "those silly kids and their silly ideas" and later "those god damned subversive kids and their dangerous ideas..."
Re:Companies just don't get that GPL means busines (Score:5, Interesting)
The Silver Lining (Score:5, Interesting)
Counterintuitively - and not a little bit idealistic about the legal system's ability to judge without outside influence - perhaps the thing to do is to root for SCO a little bit. Egg them on with false love! Give them a hand up the hubris ladder! Kneel down as they fawn over their petards! Make this the fight that covers many bases as possible so that these things we seem to share an attachment with are the stronger for it.
Good news; bad news (Score:5, Insightful)
Licensing lawsuits (or lawsuits in general) are rarely about right and wrong and are more about which side can afford better lawyers. Even an egregious violation of the GPL by SCO would still come down to this. To some extent, this is why companies don't take the GPL seriously. Under any other circumstances, who is going to cough up the big bucks to challenge some company's higly paid legal team?
The good news:
IBM can afford very good lawyers and has a huge economic incentive to fight SCO "to the death." IBM has been moving to a "services" based business model for some time and free, cross-platform operating systems and software fit into this plan nicely.
The unknown:
So far, IBM has publicly been asserting only that they have a valid license to use System V Unix as per their original license agreement. They have not asserted anything regarding the GPL with regard to either the code in question or SCO's use of GPLed software in SCO Linux. This whole mess could and probably will get settled without the GPL even being brought up in the courtroom.
SCO's action of attempting to stop IBM from shipping AIX by revoking the license is fairly weak since it requires SCO to show that IBM *as a corporation* deliberately assisted Linux development by violating the SCO copyright on certain code. All IBM has to do is say "No we didn't. Prove it." (which they have) and SCO is faced with the task of finding e-mails or memos or whatever that directed some of IBM's kernel contributors to copy code. Barring finding such evidence, SCO would be stuck going after the individual contributors. In this matter, the question of whether or not some Linux code may be lifted from SCO's codebase only proves that their was a violation of the SCO copyright; not that IBM as a corporation is responsible for the copyright violation. More likely, all SCO will "discover" is a memo from IBM's legal department to one or more of the contributors involved stating that it is a copyright violation if you cut and paste but its not if you simply apply techniques learned to the Linux code. Hardly a smoking gun.
SCO could sue the individual contributors involved in which case IBM would probably still foot the bill for their legal defense since IBM would just say they are standing by their employees in a business related matter and chances all SCO could get out of it even if they win is a retraction of the code (chage a few variable names and the indentation and comments and someone else can re-submit it) and maybe a few bucks since chances are we aren't talking milionaires here.
My guess:
This is primarily a FUD campaign on SCO's part to try to derail Linux. They don't have a good case but they sure are making a lot of noise to make up for it and IBM knows it. Unfortunately, there's no good legal way to say, "Put up or shut up!"
This is exactly why GNU exists, and what its about (Score:5, Interesting)
I have indeed been a SCO sysadmin, and it is an ugly hard-core Unix with no frills, no hand-holding, and it ain't Linux. If you think that Linux isn't ready for the desktop then SCO Unix is about ten years behind Linux in this regard. Basically it sucks in every respect except that SCO will come in and hook up a bunch of consoles for you and will write you some lame app in Unibasic to run on your terminals. That was the old SCO, the new SCO probably doesn't get their hands dirty with such stuff like writing programs.
Having run their OS, it was OK, nowhere near as good as GNU+Linux but it was OK, something like NetBSD with FVWM2 I suppose, except not as good. SCO reminded me of Ultrix on the university terminals about ten years ago.
But Linus did a clean-room implementation of the Unix kernel, and Stallman's FSF wrote the rest of the GNU OS as a clean room implementation as well. This was so that you and me could piss around with a real Unix-like system at home without having the bankroll to install AT&T UNIX. I don't know what you know about how SCO operates, but they implement the High Priesthood almost as good as IBM does.
When I was the SCO sysadmin, the management totally freaked out when they found out I had even touched the SCO box! But the mods I made (since I had learned using Linux) pleased them so they let me keep working with it. I replaced as much as I could with GNU so I was running SCO/GNU which was better than SCO. The little box was humming better than it ever did. I hacked the Unibasic code and implemented ANSI-BBS terminal support in addition to Wyse-30 "magic cookie codes" and Whoaa! We could use the "telnet" thing just as good as the Wyse-30's!!! Amazing! No more garbled screens ... don't have to walk over to the termial anymore!
Linux exists as a learning tool. How else are you going to learn Unix as a home user? No it isn't ready for the desktop, and it may never. It is an old-school "big iron" OS and you ought to thank your lucky stars that you have it.
How is the GPL Designed to turn copyright on it's (Score:4, Informative)
It does NOTHING to take away ANYONE's rights under copyright.
Free software authors, like ANY authors, have the right to choose how their works are licensed, and under what terms derivitave works can be made... and that choice includes saying "Anyone can use this as long as they abide by the GPL".
You are always free to contact the copyright holder of any work available under the GPL and request licensing under different terms, you know. Think the author of a GPL work is perhaps a bunch of people? That depends on the project.. often copyrights are assigned to the project leader... and depending on how contributions are made, that may still be the case despite having lots of authors.
I'm really unclear on what aspect of the GPL needs to be "challenged". If the GPL does not apply, then copyright law forbids the things people are doing with those works the authors placed under the GPL. It's not a use license, but if you don't accept it, the law is clear: you don't have the right to do certain things with that code.
SO unless the argument is "THE gpl doesn't apply, so all works available under the GPL are actually in the public domain" there is no argument.
IT doesn't have to be tested in court... copyright is already testd in court, and the authors of any GPL software are free to sue anyone who is not abiding by the license, and hence, has NO right to do what they are doing.
Re:Companies just don't get that GPL means busines (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's leave morality and Stallman out of this for a minute and just look at the license. Standard copyright law says you can't do anything without a license or sale of rights from the copyright holder. Well, not quite nothing. Excerpts can be quoted critically and the like but standard copyright law gives no usage or distribution privileges by default.
So far, the GPL hasn't come into this at all. First off, the GPL grants unlimited usage rights. Well they specifically say any usage of the Program is permitted. You can even use Emacs to write "Stallman is a dirty hippy." and post it to Slashdot. It then goes on to grant unlimited distribution provided specific rules are adhered to. At no point has anything been taken from you that you didn't already have. Now you may detest the "specific rules" but that is another argument. The fact remains that the GPL permits far more than no license at all.
And yes, the GPL can be construed as granting rights. I can do any number of things that a software author detests with his work as long as I follow the rules. I can fork the code, publically question its design, benchmark it and so forth. The author can't say crap as long as I follow the rules. The real world works that way. Go yell "Fire!" in a movie theatre if you would a real world demonstration of what rights are and are not. Rights, rules, and prohibitions aren't mutually exclusive except in the minds of certain obtuse philosphers who obviously didn't get out much.
Re:Companies just don't get that GPL means busines (Score:5, Insightful)
Consider, if I, at work, want to program a robot or something, I can totally use GPL code until the cows come home, and nobody or nothing can do anything about it. The GPL gives me this freedom. As long as I don't try to distribute my derived code, I'm totally legit! And since my company doesn't sell robots, nobody gives a crap as long as it works flawlessly. It is an in-house thing never to be sold or given away, and it does what it is supposed to do perfectly.
That is how the GPL works for you. And don't try and say I'm ripping off the GPL because I'm not, this is perfectly within the License and my robot program is none of your business as long as I don't try and sell it to you.
This is a powerfull license for engineers, I sincerely doubt that Visual Studio would give you these broad freedoms even if it was suitable for programming industrial equipment, which I will never know because my company will never pay the ridiculous licensing fees for something like that if a GPL alternative is viable.
I wonder... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:no-one, because (Score:3, Informative)
When you short a stock, you are in effect borrowing shares from a shareholder and selling them. If the stock price goes up, you have to make up the difference to the shareholder you borrowed from. If the stock completely tanks, it's unlikely the shareholder will want the now worthless stock and you walk away with a nice profit.
well (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully this means Linux is free and clear (Score:3, Insightful)
However, it does seem logical that SCO could _choose_ not to prosecute SCO Linux users. But then, couldn't you argue that any Linux user that ever had a Caldera/SCO OpenLinux CD is a SCO Linux user?
IANAL, but SCO barely had a leg to stand on legally and now it seems like they shot the foot on that leg :)
Re:Hopefully this means Linux is free and clear (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, many people are posting here that "SCO is approving the use of their code in Linux under the GPL! Nyah nyah!" Well, there's a far cry from not prosecuting certain individuals and approving the use. If you stole SCO's code but only had $50 in your bank account so they chose not to prosecute you, they could still prosecute RedHat for doing the same thing. By your logic, the failure to prosecute home users is a blanket approval, which it truly isn't. It's just a cost-benefit analysis; they have little to gain from suing home users.
In certain IP cases, failure to enforce IP ownership does constitute a grant to public domain of that IP, but this is not a wholesale failure to prosecute, only a leave given to a few specific alleged violators. This is meaningless. Of course SCO won't sue SCO users; this is not in any way a legal flaw (and, no offense to all those armchair lawyers, but I'm sure SCO had their legal team review all actions they've taken prior to taking them, so I doubt you'll find any "loopholes").
Re:Hopefully this means Linux is free and clear (Score:3, Informative)
This pretty much clears it up from our end. Linux is (or will be) in the clear, which is pretty much all we probably care about. For IBM, however, this is not nearly the end of the story.
If IBM did violate their contract with SCO (I know this is something we all don't want to talk about much), they did do som
Re:except... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't really feel like going in-depth on the other argument, but I will address it briefly. Basically, the argument goes, SCO accidentally GPL'ed their code. In order for this to apply, SCO would have to be the one who released the code under the GPL. This is incorrect; the alleged SCO code that was included when SCO released their own distro under the GPL was not released by SCO, it was being redistributed. The initial release, allegedly, was done by IBM, which is therefore invalid in that it was not released by the code owners.
Also, this argument ignores the specifics of the SCO/IBM argument, which is not IP at all but, rather, about contractual violations; there are no "is this wrong" issues here; the only issue is whether it happened. If IBM did in fact release SCO code, it was certainly a contract violation.
And I don't see what IBM's lawyers have to do with it; what I meant was that it is silly to assume that such a simple flaw exists in SCO's reasoning without even doing any legal research first. IBM's lawyers, to my knowledge, have never used either of the above mentioned arguments publicly, and I would be quite surprised if those arguments made it into the court case, seeing as it is about contract violation and not IP.
The Gloves Come Off... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. What the HELL were you protesters thinking by putting your arms around this guy and turning it into a photo-op for him? I mean, the windows refund day [deirdre.org] fiasco was bad enough. But are we serious about protesting or not?
2. The more I read, the more I think this is going to come to a legal test of the GPL.
3. As someone has already pointed out, it's a fine line between granting a license and choosing to not enforce copyright violations from their own customers. It's assinine that they could even suggest their own customers are violating a copyright by using software which THEY sold to them, but it will make for a very interesting legal battle.
4. Does anyone have any stories of how Linux customers of other distributions are being damaged? Of how other Linux-derived companies or employees are being harmed? I think it's time to create a mailing list somewhere of people who feel they are being harmed by SCO's actions.
Re:The Gloves Come Off... (Score:5, Interesting)
I got to thinking afterwards what a masterful stroke SCO pulled by joining the protestors. Entering the fray 'in the spirit of fun', and getting the opposite side to join in, including at one point convincing one of the protestors to carry pro-SCO signs, reduced the anti-SCO position to 'all in fun' as well. Not to be taken seriously. You can bet though, the message the SCO signs carried - linux = communism, GPL = theft, OSS = Kazaa - resonated with a few less-informed people.
Pretending to extend the hand of friendship, SCO completely obliterated the anti-SCO message. Slick.
stay away from sco (Score:3, Insightful)
SCO's "protest" images were not in good taste; portraying Torvalds as a puppet of IBM is a pretty cruel thing to do; equating hard work banging out code with piracy is a pretty cruel thing to do.
It's a numbers Question here (Score:5, Funny)
SCO shoots both it's own feet.... (Score:5, Funny)
Nice Quote from Linus (Score:5, Funny)
Linus:I allege that SCO is full of it.
Yikes (Score:5, Funny)
Linus: I allege that SCO is full of it.
Watch out, SCO is just nutty enough to take that the wrong way.
Obligatory Simpsons Quote (Score:5, Funny)
Sideshow Bob: The following neighbourhood residents will not be killed by me: Ned Flanders, Maude Flanders, Homer Simpson, Marge Simpson, Lisa Simpson, that little baby Simpson...that is all.
[Homer runs up to Bart's room]
Homer: Woo-hoo! Did you hear that Bart? Heh--oh...
GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:5, Interesting)
The anti-GPL crowd likes to talk about how the GPL has this power to "force" people to do things, like some kind of animated chainsaw that turns on its owner. Now the anti-SCO folks are using the same argument? Sorry folks, that's not how it works.
The GPL is simply a means for a copyright holder to grant others the right to copy under certain circumstances. It can't "force" anyone to do anything.
If the Linux kernel is a derivate work of SCO's (or more likely, certain PARTS of the kernel are derivative works), then SCO can simply claim that ALL copies of the Linux kernel are infringing copies, and ALL public distributions of the code are copyright violations.
The GPL was placed on that code by someone who was not the copyright holder. That person would not have the right to license the code at all. So you'd have to just ignore the GPL, and treat the code the same as if you just downloaded the Windows 95 source code from somebody on Kazaa.
SCO can also say, well, since we don't want you to have to go to all the trouble of deleting your OS, we'll sell you an end-user license and so forth, for $50. Otherwise we'll sue you. Aren't we nice and friendly? And we'll pick and choose who we want to sell licenses to, and who we want to give them to for free.
They certainly wouldn't allow distribution by anyone under the GPL.
The GPL simply falls by the wayside, since the copyright holder (SCO) NEVER INTENDED to distribute the code. It doesn't matter that they were already distributing it, they can argue that they were duped into distributing it because they didn't know what was in it.
The GPL does not have any magical power to bestow freedom on anything it touches. Especially someone ELSE'S code.
(This is assuming all the bullshit SCO is putting out is actually true.)
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:5, Insightful)
So if there is violating code, SCO has no right to "bless" redistribution unless they agree to non-GPL licensing terms with EVERY SINGLE KERNEL DEVELOPER who contributed non-offending source. If they are implying that distribution of their linux kernel is legal, therefore, it implies that they are offering whatever portions they claim ownership of under the terms of the GPL. If not, they are infringing upon the copyrights of hundreds of kernel developers.
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:5, Insightful)
SCO has no right to "bless" redistribution
Should be:
SCO has no right to "bless" non-GPL redistribution
The most sickening thing is that it sounds like SCO really doesn't want the (hypothetical) code removed. They want to convince a court that somehow IBM's AIX contract gives them ownership of anything that happens to have Unix code in it, and this overrides anyone else's copyrights, even if they wrote it, Linux as well s Dynix and AIX.
If they really cared about their Linux customers, they would flag the (alleged) offending code immediately and, if not replace it themselves, at least alert the kernel developers, so that a legal fix could be released. The records are clear enough that it seems they ought to be able to win damages from whoever was responsible for adding it, even if the offending code had been removed from current kernels. If there is no real offending code, though, what they are doing makes perfect sense: the more extreme and ludicrous their claims are, the higher their stock price goes, and the higher their (still slim) chances of being bought out or getting a nice settlement, rather than being embarassed in court.
worst case... (Score:3, Insightful)
an introduction to "New Logic" (Score:5, Insightful)
Sequent has licensed Unix from AT&T. Sequent develops some nifty stuff like NUMA, RCU, etc. for large parallel computers. They then incorporate this into Unix. The result is now a derived work of Unix, and AT&T/successors have "sole relicensing rights" to that derived work. But here's where the New Logic comes in: Not only that version of Unix, but also the original implementations of those technologies themselves, are also derived works, and the Unix license grants them to AT&T, or their successor in holding the license, in this case SCO. You'd think that Sequent's copyrights (now held by IBM) would let them do whatever they want, but this is erroneous: The Unix license grants these rights to SCO, and IBM can distribute implementations of these technologies only according to the terms of the System V license. This is what SCO has claimed all along.
Now lets apply this to Linux. IBM has incorporated implementations of these ideas, which can only be licensed through SCO even though IBM owns them, into Linux, under the GPL. Under Old Logic, even if we accept the above, IBM has simply broken the GPL, and the kernel without these parts still belongs to the original contributors, and can be licensed under the GPL. But as always, New Logic changes everything: Since Linux, with RCU and NUMA support, is now a derived work of System V Unix (even if it has been created illegally), SCO now has "sole right of relicense" to not only this derived work, but as with Sequent, all previous implementations, even those without the licensed code (just as it applies to implementations of RCU and NUMA before they were incorporated into Unix). And under the New Logic, Linus' copyright matters no more than Sequent's.
Re:an introduction to "New Logic" (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:5, Interesting)
The GPL does prevent SCO from deciding who can and can't use the linux kernel.
Forget the GPL, make them put up or shut up! (Score:4, Interesting)
Slashdot should be helping to shape the language of this media hype event, we shouldn't even be debating this crap until the evidence is presented....we should be encouraging the press to do likewise....all press comments should be "we are within our rights, we obey the law, we are unconcerned, we'll see the bastards in court, business as usual..." That's precisely how IBM's handled the case so far..."we are right, we know it, we'll be seeing ya' in court."
Even answering their charges only serves to shift the debate and allow them control over the media "language" of the case. With their weak case, they will attempt to shift the spotlight to anything BUT proving that copying took place, who did it, and the chain of custody along the way.
The best answer is to deny, deny, deny....then claim that you can't recall, but you are sure that you didn't do it, 'cause you never break the law. That's how Bill G. does it...it seems to work pretty good....
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:3, Interesting)
If they do give their users a legimitate li
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:5, Interesting)
"If the Linux kernel is a derivate work of SCO's (or more likely, certain PARTS of the kernel are derivative works), then SCO can simply claim that ALL copies of the Linux kernel are infringing copies, and ALL public distributions of the code are copyright violations."
The Linux Kernel is a work owned by many people; the copyrights belong to no one person. To declare that, "Well, since this code was added to the kernel, the entire kernel is now in violation and belongs to us" is ridiculous. SCO may sue for damages of the code used (IF it exists, which is sketchy at best), and then it will be removed (IF they ever explain what code that is -- if not, any judge with two brain cells is going to force them to or drop the suit). End of story.
---
"The GPL simply falls by the wayside, since the copyright holder (SCO) NEVER INTENDED to distribute the code. It doesn't matter that they were already distributing it, they can argue that they were duped into distributing it because they didn't know what was in it."
Another idiocy, except I can't put it past the courts to not blame SCO on this one. Still, the Linux code that SCO distributed still belongs to the copyright owners who have deemed that the code is not to be distributed unless all attached code is GPLed. SCO, willingly or not, either published their code under the GPL, or violated the IP of hundreds of developers.
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Based on their original (albeit vague) allegations, how can SCO claim that they didn't know that they distributed their IP under the GPL when IBM can claim the same ignorance?
Re:GPL doesn't help here!! (Score:5, Insightful)
RTFGPL (Score:5, Interesting)
That's not what it means. Nobody can unintentionally make their software GPL through 'infection'. Instead, it means that SCO has just formally violated the GPL and should now be sued for copyright infringement by anybody and everybody who owns copyrights to any part of the Linux kernel. In particular, Linus could generate lots of press by suing SCO for copyright infringement. He might get some good coin out of it too; $3.1-billion ought to do it.
IP != Copyright (Score:5, Informative)
No, emphatically not.
GPL applies to copyright'ed materials only. If SCO have other form of IP protection (such as patent, or, as they in fact claim, trade secret) the the GPL does not even interact with it. And see below.
Further, it is possible for SCO to liscence their copyrighted code such that all thier customers may use it. That does not make it GPL'd.
The GPL only applies upon redistribution - it is quite valid for me to link in code written under any sort of liscence to the Linux kernel. However, I may not freely redistribute it unless I can meet all the restrictions on it. From the GPl, section 7:
Granted, it is talking principly in terms of patent liscencing, but that's inconsequential.
As a case in point, conside the NVIDIA binary drivers. If you have an NVIDIA card, you have a liscence to use that copyrighted code. You do not have a liscence to re-distribute NVIDIA's code. Yet you may link the two systems together, just fine, provided you don't try to redistribute the combined work.
Now, SCO redistributing binaries from their ftp site, _after_ they make claims about thier code being in Linux is a whole different kettle of fish. That's a different issue however.
That is different. (Score:4, Interesting)
Note - I'm trying to find the clause that allowed it, I'm sure I've seen it before, and it's common knowledge.. but I can't find it, anyone know where it is?
The license on the linux Kernel itself is not just the GPL, it has an additional clause.
You quoted Section 7 of the GPL.. let's look at more of it:
"For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program. "
That's pretty self explanatory.. if SCO cannot distribute copies that allow ANYONE to redistribute in the same manner, they cannot distribute at all.. Therefore, they cannot just license their version of linux to their users only, and impose restrictions on others.
Silly SCO (Score:4, Funny)
Not really (Score:4, Informative)
Unfortunately, this may be false (IANAL etc.) because SCO can say that "credit" their liability. That is, if the court finds that their IP was stolen and all Linux users must pay $1000 to SCO, SCO can simply credit their own customers as having "paid up" as it were. Now the interesting issue is this
In Defense of SCO (Score:4, Funny)
It was the winter of 1988, and I was a student at the University of California at Santa Cruz. One night, I went to the Wednesday juggling group, and I met this woman named Lynn. Lynn was in an on-again, off again relationship that at the moment was off again.
Well, by the end of the evening, Lynn and I had a date to go hiking that weekend. We went out for a hike, and one thing led to another, and the next thing you knew we went back to my dorm and slept together.
We continued on like this for a few weeks, merrily boinking away, and then I went away for spring break. When I returned, Lynn told me that she had gotten back together with her old boyfriend. It was no huge loss where I was concerned, and I was grateful for all the good times.
Now how does this relate to SCO, you ask? Well, it turns out that Lynn worked for SCO. At the time, Santa Cruz had no technology companies to speak of. So it stands to reason that if it weren't for SCO, Lynn likely would have found work in some other town, and we would never have met.
This is all a round-about way of saying that SCO got me laid. Which sort of pales in significance to who owns what lines of code or what licenses were or weren't handed out. Yet it seems the Slashdot crowd is obsessed with this technical minutia, and purposefully ignores all the great things that SCO has undoubtedly contributed to this world. Like getting me laid. So, people, please get it together and be a bit more objective about this great company.
Wrong SCO (Score:3, Funny)
So, the SCO back then was GOOD the SCO now is BAD
Don't think that they're the same company cause they're not. It used to be about UNIX, now it's about using UNIX to sue people to earn profit.
Re:In Defense of SCO (Score:3, Funny)
And then you'd be in a *whole* lot of trouble.
SCO Trial (Score:3, Funny)
McBride: My precious was birthday present YESS
IBM Lawyer: What are you talking about?
McBride: Its what has it got in my pocketses.
IBM Lawyer: You do not even have the source code do you?
McBride:Did we say so, precious? Cross it is, impatient, precious.
IBM Lawyer: Your honor, since SCO can not even have the code they therefor have no ownership. I have the source code here and
McBride: MY PRECIOUS! THEIF, theif IbM! We hates it FOREVER! My PRECIOUS!
Trademark/Copyright (Score:4, Insightful)
The other side, as I see it, is if someone paid money to SCO/Caldera/Whoever and accepted an EULA from SCO/Caldera/Whoever, then they have a license to use the code anyway....
Re:Trademark/Copyright (Score:3, Informative)
SCO does not own the trademark for UNIX, nor any other trademarks alleged to be infringed in this suit. Trademarks are the only IP that can be lost if not actively defended.
Copyrights can be moderately defended and still kept. However, if you choose to widely ignore infringement for a lengthy period of time, your hopes of coming back to sue people for large amounts of damages will be laughed out of court. Especially if you continue to help give away those copyrights fully knowing that by doing s
Interpreting the letter (Score:5, Interesting)
One thing that I haven't figured out, is what about UnitedLinux? (which I believe SCO to be a member of). Is SCO Linux = a standardized UnitedLinux distro, or is it more complicated than that?? And if yes, or nearly, how do SCO think customers of their UnitedLinux partners should act??
Another thing that isn't clear, is whether you will be able to become a SCO Linux customer (not saying I want to, just whether it will be possible) - i.e. what if you want to buy SCO Linux - could you? I realize they have stopped selling it for now, but will this continue?
Not *exactly* (Score:3, Interesting)
Contrary to what a lot of people think, the worst that can happen to you if you violate the GPL is that you lose your rights to distribute the code, and you might have to pay a civil fine for the GPL infringement.
But the point is moot anyway, since SCO isn't distributing anything right now, they are not GPLing anything.
SCO hiding facts? (Score:3, Funny)
Think about it - he disappears and the SCO FUD machine cranks up. Coincidence? I don't think so.
SCO vs. IBM vs. [INSERT YOUR NAME HERE] (Score:3, Interesting)
Linus didn't have to say a whole lot. The suit doesn't involve him yet and he's not obligated to remove any code from the kernel because A) no one has asked him to and B) the pending lawsuit seems to be the way SCO wants to handle this. Linus does give his opinion of the lawsuit though and I think he would like it if SCO just said, "You know what, we're morons. Sorry about the mess." But, SCO is too deep into this now.
Just a reminder. I'm consolidating the "worthwhile" points of the lawsuit at the link in my sig. If anyone would like me to add something to that page or would like to contribute commentary on this subject please don't hesitate to contact me.
Another Good Linus Quote (Score:3, Informative)
Linus: Not that I know of, although I do suspect a fair amount of time has been wasted just worrying about it.
20 years is a long time (Score:4, Funny)
Don't forget the "Just because we don't..." clause (Score:3, Informative)
In every contract I have written, signed, and/or approved there has been a clause that says something to the effect of...
"Just because I decide not to enforce a particular section of this contract today, doesn't mean I don't have the right to call for enforcement tomorrow."
I don't know all the details of the GPL, and I don't know all the details of any agreements that SCO has with other companies. But, at first glance, I rate it this way...
"Any and all" > "Just because I decided to sue you and not him"
Of course, as some have pointed out, If SCO can prove that their IP was given out, without their knowlege, then the "any and all" may be pre-empted.
Then again... If the IP was given out, and SCO did know about it, but they chose not to enforce it at all for a given length of time, then their rights are forfeit BECAUSE they didn't enforce it.
So.. Here's the question.... Did SCO own something, and not know what they owned, and who was using it, for a really long time?
A) No. They didn't know, and they didn't enforce their rights. Therefore, SCO is dumb and they lose.
B) Yes. They knew, but didn't enforce. SCO loses again
No witty signature here. Nothing to see. Move along.
they have already distributed the software (Score:3, Insightful)
IBM's Response (Score:3, Informative)
See sco run (Score:3, Funny)
See SCO lie.
See stocks fly.
Fly stocks, fly!
See Gartner blow.
SCO stocks grow!
Grow stocks! Grow!
See Novell.
See Novell smack,
Smack SCO! Smack!
See IBM.
See IBM laugh.
SCO lawyers barf.
SCO stocks cut in half.
See SCO.
See SCO whine.
SCO says "It's mine!"
See IBM.
IBM puts foot down.
SCO execs start to drown.
Drown SCO, drown!
Interesting Development: Linux distributors okay (Score:4, Informative)
SCO is now saying they have no intention of suing Linux distributors!
From http://www.computerwire.info/brnews/6FF3308412856B 4D80256D4E005D45FA
(Last time I pasted in a URL, it inserted a space. So if you can't connect, look for spaces)
However, they still appear to want "licensing fees"
Also, notice here that they are now saying the "infringing code" is from AIX and Dynix:
In other words, SCO now seems to be saying that the so-called infringements are from AIX and Dynix instead of System V.
What they still aren't saying is those so-called infringements are of code written by Sequent and IBM, owned by Sequent and IBM, copyrighted by Sequent and IBM, and is theirs to do with as they wish.
While AIX and Sequent Dynix are derivative works of System V, they have a long way to convince me that the IBM/Sequent modifications are derivative works of System V.
It's a contract dispute with IBM based on definitions that have extremely interpreted to SCO's benefit and in ways that I suspect have rarely, if ever, been interpreted before.
Also in the article:
This brings up the obvious questions:
1) Are they talking about other flavors of UNIX that have IBM/Sequent code? For that matter, are there other flavors of Linux have the IBM/Sequent code?
or
2) Have they found other so-called infringements apart from the IBM/Sequent code? Are they claiming, as it sometimes seems, that if System V and another UNIX has a few identical lines of code, there is necessarily an infringement regardless of the actual source of the code?
SUE SCO! (Score:5, Interesting)
But can you imagine the impact of 5,000 of these kinds of suits?
I'd be willing to provide the hosting space for a site that instructs and coordinates this kind of effort.
this will never fly (Score:5, Insightful)
If they attempt to sue a Linux company or a linux user for using Linux, they will have to reveal in court, in public, all duplicated code in question. Once that happens (if this duplicated code actually exists), you can bet your $$ that code will be gone from Linux in less that 12 hours.
Linux vs. SCO: The Decision Matrix (How Linux will (Score:4, Interesting)
www.cybersource.com.au/users/conz/linux_vs_sco_ma
SCO is doomed either way now. (Score:5, Interesting)
"b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License."
"4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance."
SCO could have claimed that since they did not know of the alleged code, that they have not granted rights to that piece of code by distributing it. however, they have stated that they knew months in advance of the lawsuit of the alleged code, and continued to sell and distribute their Linux distribution. They have also continued to distribute their Linux distribution via FTP, and now, they prove in this letter that they know they have distributed the alleged code to their customers, and are planning to hold them harmless instead of removing it from their distributions.
So, we have two cases:
1. That SCO has granted rights to the code in question under the GPL by knowingly distributing it. In this case, they have no case against anyone but the original infringer.
2. That SCO has not granted rights to the code in question under the GPL. In this case, they have voided the license to distribute the kernel under the GPL, and have been knowingly stealing Linux, as they have no other rights to distribute it under. Their announced plan for the future is to continue stealing it for benefit of their customers. They could be sued by everyone who has contributed to the kernel for stealing their IP.
So, SCO is simply doomed regardless of the validity of their case.
However, if you've been reading the daily SCO articles and interviews, the whole stolen code thing is just misdirection and FUD. What they are really claiming is that anyone who has touched an invention to System V has not only given SCO rights to that invention, but has given up their own rights to that invention. This is simply madness, but this is their claim. This is their basis for claiming non-SCO technologies like IBM's JFS, and claiming that hundreds of thousands of lines of code in Linux are infringing. The sheer audacity of this claim, that they exclusively own 20 years worth of other people's inventions, is probably why they have avoided seeking a temporary injunction, because they would have to make this argument in court immediately, and it would never hold up. They want this to drag on as long as possible in hopes their slander and libel against Linux pays off on its own.
Some basic points of fact (Score:4, Informative)
We all need to take a deep breath and realise that there is a serious threat here. You may think that the GPL gives you unbreakable rights in perpetuity. You'd be wrong. Read it [fsf.org]. Try and find the clauses. They aren't there.
The problem that SCO has is that they may still be duplicating other people's copyrighted code. Doing so while prosecuting patent rights removes the protection that the GPL gives them from being sued, so get your suits in now. But heck, the GPL is only a gentleman's agreement anyway. It doesn't have the force of law, nor is it a contract. You can sue anyone for duplicating your code regardess of whether you attached a GPL license to it or not, arguing that it didn't form a contract, or that it's revokable because it doesn't grant rights in perpetuity.
This isn't black and white. SCO have left themselves liable to being sued, but that doesn't mean that they invalidate their right to sue others for duplicating their copyrighted source. The only winners here will be the lawyers. And no, I'm not one, but I've paid enough to them to accept that the GPL is a huge mess (because it doesn't mandate unrevokable and in perpetuity) and that this was an inevitable situation sooner or later.
Re:viral nature of GPL. (Score:3, Funny)
It will soon be pronounced ... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Pronounciation? (Score:5, Interesting)
I called their line the other day to see why they were still distributing [sco.com] linux, and their voice mail said "S-C-O". This surprised me, since my friends and I have been pronouncing it 'skoh' since the 1996 or 1997.