2003: Year of Linux in Asia? 320
Anonymous Coward writes "The Register has a story
about traveling to a magical country where seeing Linux laptops displayed in stores is perfectly normal. The author then goes on to predict that this year will see much more desktop action coming not from Red Hat or Euro-Distros, but from China and India. Makes sense to me."
Year of Linux? (Score:4, Funny)
"I'm was born in the year of the dragon!"
"I was born in the year of the bull!"
"... Iwas born during the year of the geeks..."
Penguin (Score:3, Interesting)
"The Year of the Penguin"
Obligatory article repost before /.-ing (Score:3, Informative)
By Robin Miller, NewsForge.com
Posted: 27/12/2002 at 10:56 GMT
As most regular NewsForge readers know, I recently traveled to Arabeyes Project, was a small, independent computer store located in a back alley in one of Amman's many modest commercial districts.
There is a sameness to this kind of store the world over. I shop at one much like it in Sarasota, Florida, and another similar one in Greenbelt, Maryland.
The reason we were in this store was to find and buy a Linux-compatible PCMCIA modem. The salespeople in this store were just as clueless as the salespeople in equivalent U.S. stores, and there were the same know-it-all geek customers hanging around who offered us advice ranging from smart to useless. But there was one difference. When we wanted to test a modem for Linux compatibility, we found -- courtesy of one of the geek hangers-on -- a laptop running Linux on display, right up front.
As it turned out, we didn't need the physical test, and the modem ran just fine in the Red Hat-loaded laptop where it was destined to live, but the note that stuck with me was the fact that there was a laptop on display in a computer store, right up front, proudly running Linux, and people treated it as something normal, not as an oddity.
It wasn't Red Hat, either, but ThizLinux, a distribution from Hong Kong, which is appropriate since the laptop was a Hong Kong brand I've never seen in the U.S. before.
To top it off, the office suite CDs on display next to the laptop weren't from Microsoft or StarOffice or WordPerfect, but Hancom Office, out of South Korea. And it was an Arabic version, too, something neither StarOffice nor OpenOffice quite have ready.
Hancom makes major promo hay out of their support for many languages in their $59.95 (boxed edition) office suite. Their Web page says, "Chinese (simplified and traditional), Japanese, Arabic, Korean editions and Unicode support mean that Hancom Office is the best solution for companies with offices on multiple continents."
Asia is the next Linux hotbed
Linux, as we know it today, is an essentially European phenomenon. It started in Finland. KDE is centered in Germany and has close ties to Norwegian TrollTech. Mandrake is French, SuSE is German, and European governments have moved toward and supported Linux -- and Open Source in general -- faster than most governments elsewhere. The U.S. is the center of commercial Linux activity primarily because Red Hat and several other major distributions are based here, but most surveys show a higher percentage of European than U.S. developers writing Open Source software.
But a growing number of "next generation" Linux development is taking place in Asian countries, ranging from South Korea at one end of the continent to India diagonally across the continent's map, with China rising hugely -- in the Linux sense -- right in the middle of it all.
Africa and the Middle East are discovering Linux in a big way, but don't have nearly as much computer/IT infrastructure or as much computer-oriented education available as (some parts of) China or India -- or South Korea or Vietnam or Malaysia. Or Japan, where it looks like Linux will soon be adopted as a preload operating system by computer manufacturers on all kinds of gear, not just on the server and workstation levels as we see 99% of the time in the U.S. and Europe.
I see an increasing amount of Linux development and related Open Source activity coming out of Asia, almost all of it in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and other Asian languages.
I also see an increasing amount of Linux activity coming out of India, most of which is in English rather than in one of the many local Indian languages.
2003: the year of Asian Linux
I rarely make predictions. Heck, I am not all that sure I'll wake up tomorrow morning, let alone that the sun will come out from behind the clouds, assuming we have a cloudy sky tomorrow. But once in a while I let myself go and prognosticate. And this is my one and only NewsForge prognostication about Linux and Open Source in 2003: That some of the biggest advances we're going to see in the next year will come from Asia, not Europe or North America.
Whether we'll recognize how important these advances are (whatever they turn out to be) is another matter entirely. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. But that's a column I need to write at the end of 2003, not today.
well (Score:4, Insightful)
Are You Sure? (Score:4, Insightful)
I suppose that software piracy in both China and India will still overshadow Linux in the near future. Unless both government really put an end to piracy next year, I doubt that 2003 would be the "Asian Linux" year, at least not in the short run.
Moreover, Asia doesn't just consist of India and China, albeit they contain the most concentration of the population. But for the other countries, Linux still has a little voice. So, please don't over-generalize.
Re:Are You Sure? (Score:3)
A lot of replies of my parent post don't understand what I meant with "piracy". If piracy is rampant, the cost difference between Linux and other what-have-you OSes are negligible. Given the predilection in favor of Windows-based system nowadays, it will take a very long time and arduous effort to shift that towards Linux. One of such effort is to put a sudden end to the piracy, which is impossible within a year, IMHO.
Sheesh. I know that Linux is free (as in speech, but often times as in beer as well). And after following Slashdot this long, you still lecture me about that.. Heh. :-)
Re:Are You Sure? (Score:2)
It might as well be, considering that you're allowed to distribute it at will... one person can buy it and put it up for free download - and it's perfectly legal.
Re:Are You Sure? (Score:2)
There's a dirty little secret in the GPL. It's in section 2, paragraph b:In other words, if you release a work that is in any way derived from a GPL-licensed work, you have to give it away for free to everybody. You aren't allowed to sell it.
Re:Are You Sure? (Score:2)
Yup, right (Score:4, Funny)
1996^H^H^H^H
1997^H^H^H^H
1998^H^H^H^H
1999^H^H^H^H
2000^H^H^H^H
2001^H^H^H^H
2002^H^H^H^H
2003 The Year that Linux takes over the desktop!
Where have I heard this??
Not in India atleast (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't see Linux making any significant inroads in the mass computer culture of India.
Most savvy users in India will only pick up a tool if it can be an instrument for economic gain. This is why ofcourse, computer programming and learning it is a big thing in India. Because that's what the 20-something thinks. Learn coding and the world is open to you. The Indian mindset is not exactly open to adopting a culture where the software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue. Which in other words means there is no (or hardly any) revenue !
If someone in India trys out Linux, its because of the geekish 'chic' factor. To expect a group of Indian coders to sit and down and code say, an IDE, give it away for free is fantasy*
*Unless that group is currently in an academic or research institution where they have a stipend or other sources of income.
Note 2: If you're going to counteract that they can sell the product as a shrinkwrap too, then you don't know the Indian software retail market
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
Perhaps I don't. It was my understanding that a great deal of the programming business going to India was for custom applications for specific clients and consultants. If that is the case, I would think that a world wide move to Linux would be a huge boom market for India.
On the other hand, if the bulk of the product is in shrink wrap sales, then in the immediate future this wouldn't be as profitable. Even still, a Free operating system does not mean all Free software. It is still quite possible to make a buck selling closed source apps for Linux, FreeBSD, or any other flavor of Unix.
A software company looking to work on a Unix product need not follow the exact business model of a Linux distro. An application based company has a different set of goals and would require a different business model.
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
You can if the software is run from the server.
Aside from the OS side of things, there's a lot of momentum also building around the Free database apps. Those databases are going to need the business logic worked into them, and preferrably all at the server side of things. This is the kind of thing that businesses would pay serious cash for, and still be off cheaper than an MS solution.
Mind you, I'm thinking US customers with Indian vendors. The interesting tid bit here is the ability to drive thin clients so effectively. Nothing else does this as well as Unix OS's. US companies are hitting a point where they're sick of both dealing with MS and upgrading indvidual PC's. If this does prove to be a way out from both of these traps, these folks are going to need customized stuff.
Granted, there won't be a switch flipped to suddenly make this happen. It's slowly working its way forward, like a train coming out of the station. When that train gets up to speed, the programming market in India will take notice. It won't matter how many pirated Windows apps litter the streets. Demand is the only thing that can cause the shift.
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
No one is going to make money selling software in the Indian desktop market. It doesn't matter who writes the software, the folks in India aren't going to pay for it. Microsoft has a huge user base in India, but they aren't going to make any money from this user base until they are able to successfully charge money for their software. The harder Microsoft pushes to collect the more Indians are going to realize that Free Software isn't all that bad. Even if Microsoft slashed their prices for their software you can bet that many Indians with computers would rather learn Linux and OpenOffice than shell out $150 for software. I imagine that there are some software firms in India that target the local market, but my guess is that most firms target the international market, for this very reason. After all, if Microsoft can't collect what it is due then what are the chances that a small Indian development firm is going to be able to combat piracy effectively. In other words the fact that Indians tend to run Windows on their home and business computers is completely irrelevant. Indians aren't buying your software.
Software developers, whether they are Indian or American, or whatever, target folks that pay money. Which means that if you create a custom application that relies on Oracle you are essentially adding Oracle software licensing to the cost of your application. If you based your application on PostgreSQL instead, you could easily lower the total price of your application while still delivering higher gross margins. Now clearly this wouldn't work for all types of software or for all clients, but if you aren't pushing Free Software in those situations where it fits, then I can guarantee you that you are losing business and profits. After all, why line the pockets of the commercial software vendors when you can put their licensing fees in your own pocket.
Sure, learning PostgreSQL (or whatever) takes some time, but it is an investment that would quickly pay for itself with probably a single PostgreSQL installation.
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
And (LOL) how much money do you make by purchasing Microsoft Windows?
Answer: none. Your argument is bogus. You don't make any money by using Windows. You only make money by selling services and products for Windows. You could make similar money by selling services and products for Linux.
Using Linux doesn't force you into a pact where all your own software has to be free as well. Oracle and Borland are two largish companies with closed-source non-free products for Linux . You could join that market as well.
But in any event, the free IDE from India has already been done. Check out Anjuta [sourceforge.net].
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:3, Interesting)
Blah blah blah. You're back pedalling so quickly you could set an olympic record for the 1km sprint. Your original argument was "(LOL) how can I make money giving away my products for free!". Now your argument is "Windows is just as free as Linux because I steal it anyway". I'm unimpressed by your insincerity.
Of course I did. You said that nobody from India would write an IDE and give it away for free. You were wrong. Your footnote didn't apply because Naba wasn't paid by Manipur Tech to write Anjuta. In fact, it's totally disgusting of you to cast mud upon Naba's generous donation by even implying such things.
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
Is it just me, or are Indian techie bitchslaps just far more impressive, linguistically...
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2)
By the same bogus argument nobody would build spare parts for BMWs because "there aren't any decent number of potential buyers" what with 90% of the population driving Ford, Toyota or GMH. I'll be very blunt: you still don't have a convincing argument.
This is a different claim than you made before. Earlier you said that nobody would write free software unless they were being paid a "stipend" by a research institution to do so. Naba wrote Anjuta on his own time and for his own reasons. It's an insult to Naba for you to claim that his donation was anything other than his to give.
If you want to argue that academics are more interested in free-software than other IT people then I won't disagree. But this is a new claim you are making and it has no bearing on your earlier incorrect claim.
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:3)
Well this "foolish" "jerk" couldn't read the rest of your well-delivered insult because, unfortunately, you used several words with more than one syllable.
Fortunately I hailed a passing person with strong skills in English and they translated your poly-syllabic post into grunt words that I can understand. Basically you're repeating Gyan's lame argument because you seem to think I can't read 100 words without losing my train of thought. Here's a clue: I didn't argue against his lame argument then, and I'm not going to argue against it now. There's no need to repeat the argument to me if I'm not arguing against it, twerp.
Re:Not in India atleast (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Yes GNU/Linux is yet to make serious inroads for the home user.
2. No, GNU/Linux IS a huge deal in most universities and large companies.
3. I went to IIT Delhi and we had more than a couple of labs running purely GNU/Linux and that was not because we couldn't afford Windows etc. (Actually IBM/Intel had provided machines with NT installed - we took it all out
4. I worked for one of the (then) largest SW subsidiary of an American company in India and guess what !! We had a choice of desktops - NT or GNU/Linux (IT staff supported both)... and a lot of us chose GNU/Linux
5. GNU/Linux is trickling to the home user in India
6. Someone pointed out that Indians will only follow something that makes monetary sense. Well Indians also hate to buy a new computer every 3 years and throw old equipment out
7. A lot of development being done in India (for overseas clients ) is web applications and many people already are building these on top of Apache, Tomcat, JBoss etc. This (I hope) will eventually influence the client's decision when they think of deploying these applications. So you should see more and more applications being deployed on Open Source/Free Software at the companies which outsource development to India.
correction on the new year (Score:4, Funny)
last I checked.. 2003 is going to be the Year of the Goat [chinapage.com]
since when was linux an animal?
Re:correction on the new year (Score:2)
Re:correction on the new year (Score:2)
Re:correction on the new year (Score:2)
Re:correction on the new year (Score:2)
Re:correction on the new year (Score:3, Funny)
2003 will be the year of the Gnu/Penguin (goats and Gnus are interchangable anyway...)
Some comment from an 'insider' (Score:5, Interesting)
While the article would seem like a happy fairy tale for Linux supporters, the cold, hard reality is that Linux is not even known by the large majority of computer users in most parts of Asia... AND this includes the so-called high-potential areas such as China and India.
While companies prefer to stay legit and actually buy licenses for their software (and even this is fairly recent, thanks to the BSA), a large majority of home-based consumers run pirated versions of Windows, and a bunch of pirated application which can be bought at less than US$2 per CD. This is the cold hard truth.
And many Western media report blames the Govt for not doing anything when the fact is that they can't actually properly enforce the rules. The pirates here are true gangsters in the sense of the word... not some pimply faced kid with cable connection and terrabytes of storage like the typical image of software pirate many of you think.
They are backed by armed thugs, scouts that check on police/IP-enforcers, and possibly insiders from the police or even the local BSA branch... yes, really!
And to top it off, they keep the customers happy... Yes, they really do. I find these pirates more approachable than your average MS or Adobe salesperson.
CD not working? No problem, we'll replace it for you... No questions asked.
Two weeks guarantee on any purchased CD.
Recommendation on a better substitute of the app you wanted to buy
With that kind of service it's no wonder people here flock to pirated CD shops than to the legit vendors. Price is one thing, but if you are going to be severely restricted by EULAs and other licensing terms, might as well buy a pirated copy for 1/200 of the price and be happy about it.
From a typical Asian point-of-view, there is no value-added incentive to purchase original CDs.
Back to the topic, while companies (especially SMEs) will embrace Linux because of the money they can save from software licenses. But even so, many of the established businesses will stick to propietry software because it is what they are used to. And these are decided by the bigwigs which have no desire at all to embrace new technologies eventhough it might save them a huge pile of cash. It is in the mindset... not the software itself.
Linux can move forward by becoming more Desktop-centric not just for home users but for corporate users. And it does not need to be free (as in beer)... most companies will invest a suitable amount of cash to improve productivity.
Sorry for the long rant, hope u get my point.
Re:Some comment from an 'insider' (Score:2)
What about XP, with "Windows Activation"?
Linux is not going to get users to "move" ..... (Score:5, Interesting)
The key phrase here is "started out with MS and Windows".
There are literally BILLIONS of potential users who have never become used to Photoshop or Outlook Express or MSIE. This untapped userbase is ripe for the picking and if Linux is there early with an OS that is cheap and applications in their languages then Linux could have a large proportion of those users.
Imagine Asia and Africa populated with computer users who can't see any reason to switch to Microsoft because they are used to what they have; Linux.
Thailand and Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
You see linux desktops and laptops in almost every computer store. All top five domestic brands, including Belta [belta.com] Liberta [liberta.co.th] and Laser ( I can't find a link), use it for their lower models. It is always the same, the National Electronics and Computer Technology (NECTEC [nectec.or.th]) organization of Thailand's own Linux TLE [opentle.org], a Red Hat based distibution that has had Thai language support and translations added to virtually every application.
Since November,the new releases come with version 4.1R2, which is touted as "Professional," and includes OfficeTLE, an OO.o variant which includes such difficult to program features as a Thai word parser, because Thai uses no spaces between words. It, in my opinion, outshines Sun's Pladao Office [pladao.com], which translates as "Starfish." The menus for Pladao are all in Thai, but the OfficeTLE menus are in English. Books for both litter the bookstore shelves in prominant places.
NECTEC also has a venerable serverdistribution, SIS (can't find the link), which stands for School Internet Server, and connects primary, secondary, and tertiary(?) schools to their SchoolNet, a free internet and information sharing operation.
Free Software is kicking here in Thailand.
For other perks, see my sig.
Oh boy, more fuel for the homeland security fire. (Score:3, Interesting)
A brief history of Chinese OS (Score:5, Interesting)
Right on. Look at RedFlag Linux [redflag-linux.com]. It's backed by China Government, RedHat-based Linux distro.
In my opinion, China Government is no much an Open Source advocate, instead, MS forced them to take this path. I got some underground news when I worked for IBM around 94, when we completed each other developing a Chinese OS for Mainland China. The progress of the development our Chinese OS/2 was not as fast as Windows 95 because they outsourced their work to Taiwan and we've put comparatively too much effort on testing(I were one of the full-time tester in Asian region).
That was the biggest mistake MS has ever made.
As usual, MS pushed their first release of Simplified Chinese version of Win95 before thorough testing. To China Government dismay, they found that whenever they type the word 'Kung'(the first word of Communism in Chinese), the association helper immediate popup the word 'bandit' after it. 'Communist Bandit' is how Taiwanese called Communist party in Mainland China.
That was a really good prank the Taiwanese Developers made for China Government.
I've also been told that there's still a couple of nasty easter eggs hidden in this first release of OS(or Word/Excel?) that made fun of some lead people in communist party, that pissed them very much. Although MS had done everything to 'repair' the damage, but as a common practise of them "this shall not be forgiven."
RedFlag Linux may be the first major getback on MS.
Re:A brief history of Chinese OS (Score:2)
Smart Move For Asia if it Happens (Score:2, Insightful)
Axis of evil (Score:3, Funny)
Troll? (Score:2)
Welcome to the new world order (Score:3, Funny)
Spoke like a true white guy running around the streets of Jordan.
The The Peter Principle of Economics (Score:5, Insightful)
I say that not just because of pricing themselves out of the labor market, with Asian and other labor forces offering cheaper labor. The truth also includes cheaper *methods* which Linux is a part of, long term. Higher costs imposed my closed source and proprietary (read: Microsoft) operating systems and application software will cause higher prices for those who choose them. This making Asian markets that choose Linux even *more* competitive down the road.
Giving back (Score:3, Interesting)
Could well be... (Score:2, Interesting)
The times THEY ARE a changing.
Framebuffer Console for Windows? (Score:2)
However, there is one thing that bugs me, that I can do with Linux, but not with Windows.
I would like the Framebuffer console; let's say, the 160x64 console, and let's say, maybe 5 or 8 virtual consoles, maybe running screen with cygwin bash. This is my standard terminal, it is my *favorite* video mode among all the options available to me, and it appears to be altogether IMPOSSIBLE in windows.
Don't talk to me about fonts and terminal windows in win2k; it is not the same. You can get some nice things there, but, I cannot get the equivalent of the linux console. And I really want this.
It doesn't have to be the framebuffer device, per se, but it definitely needs the same font options, and absolutely needs to equal or exceed the speed of the native console. NO WIN2K TERMINAL COMES CLOSE to the speed of the linux console.
This is the first item on the list of things that keeps me running linux on my main computer, as a matter of fact. It's my first requirement!
Why not just be satisfied... (Score:2)
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Interesting)
However, when you move to standard home user then yeh, it sucks because he can't play the games all his friends are, or he can't view the latest web pages (I know Moz is standards compliant, but a lot of sites aren't.) or he can't open the attatchment sent by his brother of some pointless sort because he doesn't have the viewer. etc.
I see your point, I really do. But, then again, I don't think Linux should become mainstream.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I hear that a lot, but I never see it. I've been running Chimera (and before that, Mozilla) for quite a while and I can't remember hitting a site I couldn't view. Some banks require user-agent spoofing* to work properly, but once I've got my foot in the door, everything seems to work great.
Got any examples of sort-of-high-traffic sites that just plain don't work in Mozilla based browsers?
*See this [mozilla.org] for more on that.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Well, I don't know if you consider the Dow Chemical Company [dow.com] in this category, but virtually every page is broken in Mozilla with Javascript code strewn across the screen; search forms, etc. don't work as a result.
The problem is that their HTML comments are screwed up with the wrong number of double-hyphen pairs. Mozilla parses them correctly per the SGML standard [htmlhelp.com], the result being not what Dow intended; but IE parses them incorrectly, and IE's bug cancels out Dow's bug. Curiously Dow's own internal search engine does parse the comments per the standard, so you often see garbage JavaScript fragments (even in IE) - the same ones you see in Mozilla - where the summary for the search result page should go.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Interesting)
Java doesn't work out of the box in IE either, you have to download the pluggin...
Same with Flash,
the installations in linux are a little more involved, but there are simple instructions laid out, the flash installation is particularly easy, for the last 6 months + whenever I try to go to a site that uses flash on a box that doesn't have it, I click the link, it takes me to the right page, I download the file, and copy it to the directory it says to copy it to on the macromedia site.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:5, Insightful)
It's refreshing to see one other person on Slashdot that understands this concept. What's keeping my tied to Windows isn't going to be solved by a kernel update to Linux. What's keeping me using Windows has nothing to do with MS's monopoly or that I'm an idiot or any of those other stupid rationalizations I hear all the time. Linux is free so I should have no problem using it right? Wrong.
I use Outlook 2000 (no, not express, so spare me the virus bs.) because I choose to. It's the best for what I use it for. (Calendar, To do list, Spam filtering, synchronization with my PocketPC and Phone, etc...) There are probably clones of it out there, but so what? I already have my solution. I use Lightwave. I could switch to Maya or something, but I've already spent the money so where's the value? I use Photoshop. I could use Gimp, but Photoshop is what everybody uses. I like to play games, dare I even touch on that?
I have no incentive to switch to Linux. My computer works, it's quite stable (despite the FUD spread around here about Windows 2000 or XP), and it more than suits my needs. At some point Linux is going to have to stop playing catch-up to MS and start being better if they want me to jump ship.
Funny thing is, I'm not even pro-Microsoft. But I'm not interested in dropping everything just to enter the "I'm cool because I use Linux" popularity contest. A switch to Linux costs me a great deal, it doesn't buy me anything today.
With that said, more needs to be done to make Linux an attractive platform for companies like Adobe to port over to it. The opportunity is there. Movie Studios are starting to pick up Linux as a workstation. It ain't going to completely replace Microsoft or Apple until an artist such as myself is presented with an interface I can pick up and use. I have to be able to maintain my machine. I have to be able to install and run apps. I have to be able to communicate with people who don't run Linux (i.e. good Office port...). All of this completely fails if I have to memorize a bunch of text commands in order to configure my machine.
Solve the interface issues with Linux, and you'll see support from companies like Adobe. When we see support from these places, the interesting apps will appear.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Insightful)
You touched on an interesting point there. Everybody on
But this only goes so far. At some point, Linux has to do something better than Windows. A checklist of "we don't have MS's problems" isn't enough. I mean seriously, who's going to go to Gateway and not buy Windows because of DRM? They won't even know how it affects them until it bites them in the ass long after they've bought it. Why not make a distro of Linux catered to small group of people?
Make an artist distro where Film Gimp, Gimp, Killustrator, and a few other things have their icons on the desktop or on the toolbar or something. Make the other stuff available, but make the important stuff come out first. Make a PVR distro where right away you have the functionality you need to get the PVR going. Maybe distro is the wrong word.. configuration? Hell I don't know. I love the idea of installing Linux and as soon as it comes up it's all ready to go with compositing tools ready to launch.
Now that I think about it, one of Linux's biggest failings is that it tries to do a little too much. The Linux Community is all about choices. Some like Mozilla, some like Netscape, some like Opera, so let's put them all in there. Right? Bad idea. The first time I fired up Linux I was met with a number of programs all beginning in K. Who was the dumbass that came up with that naming convention? I mean it's Kcute and all, but Kwhen Kall Kprograms Kbegin Kwith Kk, Kthen Kit Kis Khard Kto Kfind Kthe Kprogram Kyou're Klooking Kfor since the list is sorted Kalphabetically. If they wanted to keep me as a Linux user, they would have slimmed down the choices a bit. I mean face reality here, I'll have to use any given program a while before I understand why this other choice is of interest.
Okay, I rambled a bit. I hope somebody out there involved in developing for Linux read this and got a little bit of insight into why I'm not a Linux user now. I'm all for ditching MS for something that is.. well. democratic like Linux is. (I'd like to see somebody try to force DRM support in Linux, heh...) but I just can't do it yet. Unless Linux gives me something I don't have in Windows, then I just don't have the time to muck with it.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like what you're looking for is the hard sales pitch. Not sure if you're going to find that in Free software land.
You will find desktop environments that allow for seemless use of multiple desktops, server class networking, and front line applications that do a pretty fine job rivaling their rather expensive counterparts. All without having to troll the WareZ groups for hours on end.
The advantages of a Unix desktop aren't immediate though. You won't have a paper clip come flying out to show you around. It takes some time and curiosity to see for yourself why there are those of us who left Windows behind. The really rough part here is that it's not something I can describe adequately to you here. Oh, I could probably list off a stack of features that Windows simply can't do, but it wouldn't mean anything to you. It only has value or meaning when you get there yourself.
All that's assuming you can get past the app naming conventions. You can, can't you?
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
That's a good point. What use are those features to me if I'm not looking for them now? I use my computer to work. I don't have a lot of time to explore and fool around. I could adopt Linux, and at some point it might even be able to make myself more productive with it than I could with Windows. But, if my biggest bottlenecks right now are with the apps I use and not the OS, then Linux does me absolutely no good.
"All that's assuming you can get past the app naming conventions. You can, can't you?"
No need to be insulting. That's a legitimate crticism of Linux. (or more specifically, KDE) The main reason Windows is a success is that people can use it. People are willing to forgive instablility when at least their computer is useful to them. Think back to the days of Windows 95 when computers with confusing CLI's were a recent memory. Windows was a relief! But if Windows loaded with confusing buttons (i.e. applications on the task bar that all begin with K), then it'd be a hinderance to using the computer.
This has nothing to do with my lack of intelligence or deductive reasoning, it has everything to do with bad UI design.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
You could say the same of any tool used to complete a task. Any new tool requires time to work through how to make the most of it. It's not fooling around, it's learning.
But, if my biggest bottlenecks right now are with the apps I use and not the OS, then Linux does me absolutely no good.
Greatly depends on the apps in question. As I found over time, there's apps out there that really do replace their Window's equivalent quite nicely, but they aren't always obvious as to which apps they are. Some time spent on Freshmeat, IRC, or even browsing through mailing lists can sometimes clue you into the apps you never knew existed. One of the downsides of not being inundated with marketing.
No need to be insulting.
Duely retracted, and my apologies given. In reading my post over again that did come off worse than I had intended.
But if Windows loaded with confusing buttons...
Windows Explorer. Object Packager. Hyperterminal. Just a couple of names off the top of my head that related to functionality not described by their name. I distinctly recall looking all over the place for File Manager after upgrading to 95. Today we sort of take these things for granted, because we learned what in the heck they were.
Since most the of distros seem to dink up KDE's default presentation, it's hard to say what you saw the first time in. By default, KDE places a plain description next to the cute KName of all the applications within the KMenu.
Most things are still pretty obvious as to what they do. KCalc for example. Others are so far gone as to be silly. Who would ever guess that Korn was a mail checker? Overall, I would agree with the naming convention being a long term problem. I have a couple of posts up in the KDE Usability mailing list nagging on this very thing.
If your distro up and turned off the descriptive text in the KMenu, you can get all that back on with...
Control Center > Look & Feel > Panel > Menus
In there you'll see a checkbox for "Detailed menu entries". At least this is true in 3.0.5 of KDE.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
So Macs are unusable because of iTunes, iPhoto and iWhatever? So Windows is unusable because of Winzip, Winword, WinWhatever?
But if Windows loaded with confusing buttons (i.e. applications on the task bar that all begin with K), then it'd be a hinderance to using the computer.
That's bullshit.
An app that starts with a "K" is a KDE-app. That's very useful because you know before you try it. Just like you know that a "Win*" app is a Windows app.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Why should I, a user, care if an application is a KDE application or not? If I want to use it, I'll want to use it for my own reasons, reasons that will have nothing at all to do with KDE.
And the "Win-" thing? Dumb. Every application on a Windows computer is a Windows application; they require no naming convention to identify them.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:4, Insightful)
You will find desktop environments that allow for seemless use of multiple desktops...
What is WITH that? Why does EVERY Linux distro Ive seen always have the multiple desktop shit turned on. That is so totally a geek thing. Half the people I know using Windows are barely managing minimize/restore/maximize, I just dont see my mom keeping track of 4 different desktops. That shit has always bothered me. Make it available, fine. But a pre-installed, pre-turned on, huge portion of the taskbar, in an OS that wants to garner normal PC users? Anyway...
server class networking...
Um. Im not sure what that means exactly. If youre referring to hardware, I think they make gigabit cards for pretty much every OS. If youre referring to the TCP/IP stack, isnt windows's the same as BSD since Win2k?
and front line applications that do a pretty fine job rivaling their rather expensive counterparts.
Here's the challenge part. Show me front line Linux applications that rival (or even come close to matching)...
- Quickbooks
- Macromedia Director
- Quark Xpress
- Painter
- Dragon Dictate
- Chief Architect
- Hallmark Greeting Card Maker
- Streets and Trips
- Encarta
- AfterFX
- Learn to Speak Spanish
And the list goes on. Maybe someone could offer a couple "possible" matches on the Linux side for one or two of these. But even that's doubtful. Im not trying to be fecetious (too lazy to look up the proper spelling), I'm trying to make a point. Linux is void of the vast majority of apps people really buy. Go look at the store shelves at Best Buy, and point me to Linux equivalents of most of them. Sure, Open Office is awsome, I use it. MySQL is arguably decent. So you have an office app and a database. Well hooorayyyy!!! What about the shit people REALLY buy all the time?Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Informative)
My personal experience with non-geek types has been just the opposite. In fact, I believe it's actually easier for folks to grasp multiple desktops than the whole minimize thing. Well, from what I've seen of users anyway. YMMV.
Um. Im not sure what that means exactly.
What I mean by server class networking is that it doesn't come brain damaged by default. Every workstation class OS from MS (9x, NTWS, XP, 2kPro) will refuse any more than 10 connections. Many network services are not possible to install at all without a server version. Linux and the BSD's come with no such restrictions to their capabilities.
Here's the challenge part. Show me front line Linux applications that rival...
Let's see what I can do with your list here.
QuarkXpress: As I recall there was a project that was attempting to address this. Heck, I bet OSX users would love to have Quark going too!
Macromedia Director: Proprietary editor for a proprietary file format that utilizes a proprietary plug-in. I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.
Painter: Gimp is more than a match for this one. Maybe if you were talking Photoshop 7.0 a better argument could be made.
Quickbooks: There are a number of accounting packages up on Freshmeat, as well as professional packages built for Unix. I would agree that none of these really address the core market that Quickbooks is hitting. I highly suspect that financial software is going to be a very high focus in the next year or so.
Chief Architect: There's a stack of CAD apps for Unix. So far as any that do the bulk of the work for you, not too many out there. Probably the most notable of the free CAD apps is QCad.
Dragon Dictate: Never seen this work right in Windows. It sortta works, so long as you don't start into a conversational tone of voice. Voice recognition has a long way to go on every platform.
Hallmark Greeting Card Maker: You won't see fun little grandma made a XMas card kinda things for a while yet I suspect. Like with Windows, the corporate desktop needs to be won over first.
Streets and Trips & Encarta: Of course you won't see this hitting the Free software arena. The information gathering and subsequent publishing involves bucks. Both of these kinds of apps can be got on the web, either for free or via a subscription. Encarta is available to you now if you wish to subscribe.
AfterFX: Film Gimp. Used at the professional level today. Heck, developed by studio folks!
Learn to Speak Spanish: KDE has been working on a KDE Education package now for a little while. Today it includes a fair stack of items, such as a typing tutor, star chart, a French spelling helper, as well as other stuff. It doesn't yet include any foriegn language tutorials, but there is work moving in that direction.
Personally, I haven't really ever had a need for any of the applications mentioned on your list. At the office, only Quark is used, and it's run on Macs.
The one app that really needs to get addressed this year is Quickbooks though. This is a critical one for small businesses, which should be a target desktop market for Linux at this point. There's a LOT of folks who put this to use to keep track of their business.
If we see an effort put forth like what was generated for Mozilla or OpenOffice on this, I believe a lot of the rest of your list starts to fall in place. We have to have market share before vendors will start porting!
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
GIMP is not comparable to photoshop, and it is not comparable to painter. They are three separate programs, with photoshop being the fastest and most robust, and painter being used to simulate traditional mediums like paints, and pencils. You can have paper texture and do rubbings, you can watercolor and watch it drip down, you can mix red and yellow to make orange on your canvas.
Film Gimp is a image manipulation program that works with images beyond 8 bits per channel. After Effects is a compositor. They are not even shooting at the same targets by any stretch of the imagination.
I know you didn't mention it, but I will say it anyway, Blender is not comparable to any commercial 3D software that costs more than $200, let alone Maya, Lightwave, 3D Studio or Softimage XSI, it doesn't come close, so if anyone out there is thinking that Blender could ever replace them, just get it out of your head right now.
Linux is making inroads in graphics very quickly, but it depends on commercial support first and foremost and this will continue. Adobe will port photoshop when another image manipulation program that is comparable comes to Linux, enabling people to switch and use that program instead of photoshop. This will probably be Amazon paint, but if Softimage wises up quick, it could be Matador.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft distinguishes between the server and the workstation versions of Windows in order to sell the workstation version at a lower price. If you're not happy with the limitations of the workstation version, you're free to buy the server version instead. So saying that Linux has better networking than Windows is really just a price argument, which (1) Linux already wins, and (2) is obviously irrelevant.
The one app that really needs to get addressed this year is Quickbooks though.
I can't see how this could be done. I ran my last (failed, dammit) business venture on QuickBooks. The level of support you get from Intuit is amazing. No free solution could ever hope to match that level of service.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Can I add a few non-Windows-specific items to your list? Let me just peruse my applications folder here...
- Illustrator
- InDesign (which is the same as Quark, for purposes of this discussion)
- Photoshop
- FaxSTF
- FileMaker Pro
- iCal
- iChat
- iDVD
- iMovie
- iPhoto
- iTunes
- Microsoft PowerPoint
- NetNewsWire
- OmniGraffle
- OmniOutliner
- Palm Desktop
- Quicken
- Sherlock
- Snapz Pro
- StuffIt Deluxe
- Watson
These programs all have counterparts-- some perfect, some okay, some not so okay-- for Windows. None of them, to my knowledge, have counterparts for Linux.Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft understands this concept all too well; That's why their knickers are in such a twist over India.
The last thing M$ wants to see is a large population of Unix desktops available for app developers to sell products to.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:5, Insightful)
Linuxers understand that it is all about the applications. In fact, applications are precisely the reason that Linux is eventually going to win out. Hardware is getting ridiculously inexpensive, but commercial software remains very expensive. You might be happy to pay thousands of dollars for Lightwave, MS Office, Photoshop, and whatever else you run on your machine, but lots of people would rather use Blender, OpenOffice, The Gimp, and the wealth of free tools that come with Linux. Interestingly enough, the hardware companies would especially like to see software become less expensive because that would leave consumers with more money for hardware.
Sure, the Linux tools might not be quite as powerful, and they might lack the polish of the commercial applications, but they are a heck of a lot cheaper, and they are actually pretty darn good. This is especially true in countries where the average computer user gets paid less than those of us in the first world. If it weren't for the fact that most commercial software is easy to pirate Free Software would already be the rule in the poorer areas of the world. The harder the commercial software companies try to stamp out piracy, the more prevalent Free Software is likely to become.
Even in the United States the only people that actually pay for applications like Photoshop are those folks that use it professionally. Most people use whatever photo editor came with their digital camera or scanner. The Gimp almost certainly kicks that software right in the head. Which is why, in the long run it is almost certain to gain wider use and acceptance, especially now that the Gimp runs on Windows.
Adobe isn't going to port to Linux, because they know that if their customers start experimenting with Linux they are very likely to start experimenting with other Free Software that comes included in most Linux distributions. Direct competition with Free Software would make it that much harder for Adobe to sell their commercial applications.
In the end Linux will continue its inexorable march towards ubiquity not because it is especially good, but because it is "good enough" at the right price. There are plenty of folks that would like to use their computers to do the things that you do with your computer, but that can't afford to purchase thousands of dollars worth of software. These people have no (legal) choice but to dig in and invest some of their time learning Linux.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
You're talking about individuals, I'm talking about businesses here. In the case of businesses, the cost of software is measured by how much it brings in, not how big a check they have to write initially. Blender is inferior to Lightwave. If you're an FX studio who wants to get a million dollar contract to make a commercial, but you lost to the guy who invested in Lightwave, then your copy of Blender cost you
$998,400.
I have no doubt that lots of people will download Blender and not want to pay $1,600 for Lightwave, but nobody's going to make a free 3D prog better than Lightwave if they can't make money off it. If they do, then Newtek will work that much harder to justify that cost.
"Adobe isn't going to port to Linux, because they know that if their customers start experimenting with Linux they are very likely to start experimenting with other Free Software that comes included in most Linux distributions. Direct competition with Free Software would make it that much harder for Adobe to sell their commercial applications. "
That argument doesn't hold as much water as you might think. The reason that Adobe isn't porting to Linux is that PC is in such the vast majority that it isn't worth their time and resources to to do it. That's it. That's all. It has nothing to do with free software. If anything, free software on Linux is incentive for Adobe to get into that market for fear that their customers will switch to Linux and not be able to use their products anymore. Linux is not a threat to Adobe right now, so they're not reacting to it.
"In the end Linux will continue its inexorable march towards ubiquity not because it is especially good, but because it is "good enough" at the right price."
As I said, you have to understand the full concept of price. People have no problem buying software if it pays for itself. I paid $1,600 for Lightwave when I could have downloaded Blender for free. I have 0 regrets about that because Lightwave has proven its worth to me. That alone should give you a hint that money isn't the central issue here. It's value.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
You're talking about individuals, I'm talking about businesses here.
Same thing, in the long run, particularly in the less wealthy parts of the world. How do businesses decide what software to buy? They buy what their employees tell them to buy (after some formalities). What do employees want the company to buy? The software they are already familiar with. What software are they familiar with? The software they used in school, use at home, etc. What software did they use at school and at home? Whatever they could get cheap.
Some software companies have achieved market dominance precisely because they understood this relationship between what people steal for home use and what their companies buy for the office. But free software changes this equation, because if your computer can come with the GIMP pre-installed, for nothing more than the price of the hardware, there's little incentive to bother stealing Photoshop -- after learning the GIMP, PS will seem weird, counter-intuitive and hard to use, simply because it's unfamiliar. (Actually, from my point of view as a person with advanced, but non-professional, skills with both, I think the GIMP is better than PS, unless you need CMYK. I can go into why I think it's better, if you like).
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
You are terribly mistaken. Photoshop Elements 2.0 is the number one selling software package at Amazon. Fact is, Adobe is keenly aware of this market segment, and its price - $40 after rebates - is low enough that people don't feel it is worth their time to dig around for a free alternative.
Free is not everything. Netscape was free, but Microsoft proved that having to download it was already too much trouble for most users. Note also that Netscape was far more popular than Gimp is today, and even had many websites using Netscape-only features!
Adobe isn't going to port to Linux, because they know that if their customers start experimenting with Linux they are very likely to start experimenting with other Free Software
Huh? As you mentioned, Gimp runs on Windows, yet Photoshop Elements is still a bestseller. If having Gimp for Windows isn't enough of an incentive to try it, why would Photoshop for Linux make them reinstall their OS?
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
and
At some point Linux is going to have to stop playing catch-up to MS and start being better if they want me to jump ship.
So when Linux starts being better - will your computer stop working? Will it cease to be "quite stable"?
In my very subjective opinion, KDE/Linux is already a lot better than any version of the Windows-GUI. Multiple desktops, real 3-button support, Unix-style copy-paste, etc. etc.
But of course you will never know because "computer works, it's quite stable" and the 30 minutes you maybe tried some outdated, server-centric distro are not long enough to get to know of the advanced features.
You will use and love Linux when it comes preinstalled and not a day sooner, no matter how great Linux is.
However, Microsoft is taking a bigger and bigger percentage of PC-revenues each year (lower hardware prices, higher license costs) and it's really just a matter of time until computer will come preinstalled with Linux.
Solve the interface issues
What interface issues? If you think you have to memorize text commands you are wrong. EVERYTHING can be done with the GUI - and better than in Windows. In Windows the control center is just a folder with helper apps randomly thrown in. In KDE/Linux, the control center is structured tree-like and for example SuSE also incorporates *ALL* non-KDE settings, so you have a control center where you can do everything graphically. Having to edit text files is like messing with the registry: It may be necessary when something breaks or you want to do something very unusual, but in the normal run of things it just isn't necessary. (Oh and did I mention that editing text is much easier and straightforward than figuring out registry keys?)
And I'm sure Adobe will port their apps to Linux within the next 2 years - if they plan to sell to Asia or film-studios.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:5, Interesting)
Most people switch to Linux because they're fed up with dealing with Windows. Some people switch because they want to see what all of the noise is about.
*I* switched because I found Windows to be an awful development environment and was welcomed with open arms by Linux. Today I find it extremely difficult to use Windows in any context other than to play an occasional game (and even that is pretty frustrating).
But you sound pretty happy with your setup. IMO, you have no reason to switch. Are people really demanding that you stop using Windows?
You did however make a good point in that you already know Windows and can use it to get your work done, and thusly don't need to learn Linux. What I find interesting about it is that people will try Linux, remark about how hard it is to use, and then go back to Windows. In my experience, they are not really complaining that Linux is hard to use, rather they are complaining that Linux is nothing like Windows which they have taken the time to learn (and logged the requisite thousands of hours fucking with it to become familiar with it and get it to work right)
Four cases in point, one of which may interest you professionally:
A good colleague of mine used nothing but Linux for like 10 years. Never touched anything else. One day we sat him in front of a Windows box and he was completely helpless. He's been exposed to it regularly now but he still finds it alien and unworkable.
My wife didn't use computers much at all before she met/married me. Of course my household predominantly runs Linux, but has the occasional Windows machine which she sometimes finds herself in front of. She always whines when she has to use the Windows machine because, well, she's not at all computer literate, so it's hard for her to explain, but here's what she said: "It sucks -- it just, it's hard to explain it. Let me find the words. OK, it's like, if Windows were a circle, Linux would be a sphere. If Windows and Linux were chefs, Windows would be an average chef at an average restaurant. Not good, not bad, just go to any diner and order a burger. Ho hum. A Linux chef could be anybody, any top restaurant, any dive, it's whatever the user makes of it. Which for me isn't much, but I can use it under any circumstance that my husband puts it through". A very unscientific explanation, but I thought it was interesting, as it really shocked me one day to hear her say that she preferred Linux when I had made it a point to install Windows on a machine just for her.
This same wife and I tried an unscientific experiment. I'd wipe a computer, hand her Red Hat Linux 7.1 and Windows ME. It was her job to install one as far as possible, I'd wipe the machine, and then she'd try again with the other. No help from me. The results were again shocking. She finished the Red Hat installation with no sweat, but got stuck with Windows ME (it took her about 5 times as long and she eventually pleaded with me if she could stop now since she was getting frustrated). I will repeat again that my wife is as computer illiterate as they come. The most advanced topic she understands I think is that computers store things in files and folders, and that she can navigate this as a tree.
At a Linux user group meet I recently met a user who was in the market you claim Linux is totally unable to address, an artist. I spoke with him for awhile about why he used Linux (he actually gave a presentation on the topic). Originally he had been using Macs for years to create his work, and as such, over time (about 8 years or so), he built up a large library of material. One day he decided to go through it all and found that the software which he used to create all of this work didn't exist anymore, and that they were in file formats that nothing on Macs today could understand. The vendors were dead, the software didn't run on current hardware/OS, and there were no business interests in providing compatibility today. This terrified him, as he was in danger of losing some of his greatest pieces. It was then that he understood what all of those open source zealots were screaming about. He decided to switch to Linux, and is comfortable knowing that open source software never dies, and that all of his work now will last indefinitely (or at least much longer). Once he got past the initial culture shock, he said it's been a better platform for him overall and regrets not switching sooner.
I've got your incentive right here bub! (Score:2)
With Linux, when there's a new version of The Gimp, I go download it, for free. When there's a new version of Blender out, I go download it, for free. When there's a new major kernel version or X Free86 version, I go download it, for free.
Or, if you're lazy like most people, you can buy the latest version of your distro of choice for roughly $50($5 from cheapbytes, free from linuxiso.org) and you can upgrade all your software in one shot.
Compare that to windows or mac os, where you would be spending several thousand dollars for what is essentially incremental upgrades for all the software products you mentioned.
And then there is also licensing issues, the BSA, builtin backdoors, software shipped containing viruses(has happened several times in major proprietary software), etc.
There are downsides though. The Gimp is inferior to Photoshop in some areas(although far fewer than many assume), free *nices lack decent WYSIWYG DTP software(this is getting closer...), etc.
Whatever the pros and cons, there is already plenty of "interesting" software for GNU/Linux/BSD, you just need to educate yourself. There are also quite a few games available for Linux now, and some windows games run flawlessly in wine(x)(all politics aside). 2 years ago I installed win95(2k? forget...) to play some games, but ended up not even needing it at all.
All that said, you seem pretty content with your rig, so I see no reason for you to switch at this point. Myself, I will continue to enjoy my savings and freedom.
Cheers.
Re:I've got your incentive right here bub! (Score:2)
I think you might have missed an important point. If Gimp is an unacceptable substitute for Photoshop 7, why would it be an acceptable substitute for Photoshop 8? Until Gimp gets to the point where it can be used instead of Photoshop, cost just doesn't figure in to the equation.
Compare that to windows or mac os, where you would be spending several thousand dollars for what is essentially incremental upgrades for all the software products you mentioned.
Yes, but the point is that the Windows or Mac solution works, while the Linux one, at present, does not. Which is why, in a lot of cases, you literally can't give Linux away.
And then there is also licensing issues, the BSA, builtin backdoors, software shipped containing viruses(has happened several times in major proprietary software), etc.
Smells like FUD to me. I don't know what you mean by "licensing issues." The BSA is of no concern to companies that actually pay for all of their software. The danger of a back-door in open source software is the same as in closed source software; re-read "Reflections on Trusting Trust." And as far as viruses goes, if you're running Windows without some form of virus protection, you deserve everything you get. To Mac users, the whole virus question is largely irrelevant.
Re:I've got your incentive right here bub! (Score:2)
It's nice to think we all have your approval.
I think perhaps what turned me off most from the Open Source crowd is their arrogance and inability to understand customer needs. This is but one example.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
It is my hope that if Linux becomes very popular that it will become a viable platform for proprietary products to be developed. One can only hope that the advancements in Linux that the article was talking about will allow this.
As far as Photoshop vs gimp goes, I have heard that gimp is as or nearly as powerful as Photoshop. I don't really know. I'm the only one out of my entire family that has no artistic ability. I'm kind of the black sheep of the family in that regard.
I wouldn't be anti-Microsoft except that they continually piss me off by interfering with the growth of Linux and other non-Microsoft products. And what pisses me off the most is that they use their Monopoly power in illegal way to do so. I agree that products running on the Microsoft platform can be very powerful and if that's right for you then more power to you. It's just that I feel that Linux is the best platform for many reasons, some technical and some not.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Your right, There are ton of free software alternatives and few replacements. That those alternatives are usually functionally superior and do more I guess is irrelevant. That there is a far larger list of programs in the *nix world that there is alternative for in the windows world is another issue again
Yes those alternatives and in general other ways of accomplishing a task are going to give immediate return. The investment (time, not money, actually if you conisder that fact you have to upgrade those programs you named and pay for new licenses you save money on that alone) like 99% of investments out there takes time to bear fruit. Those in for the quick buck are going to lose their money or at the very least not going to make as much as those who actually go with a long term investment plan. Windows is your quick buck, linux and *nix systems are your long term investment plan. Only a fool goes for the quick buck.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
There are reasons I didn't say MAX.
a.) It doesn't work on Linux. It doesn't work on anything BUT Windows. That's the big reason.
b.) It's very expensive, close to 4k. LW is 1.6k
c.) Most Lightwave users would consider MAX a downgrade. Heh.
As for Maya, though I agree with your point, Maya is a tradeoff and not an upgrade. I'll get more sophisticated modelling and character animating tools, I would get an inferior renderer. I wouldn't find myself able to do significantly more. I would just have shakeup in the pros and cons department.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
There's a good reason for that. Ever wonder why Mac users like Macs so much? It's because despite it's percieved limitations, the engrossed user can make their Mac do anything a 'Pee Cee' can do. They feel they've achieved a level of competance that even those who feel superior have not reached. Lightwave is the same way. There's lots of things other apps have that LW users are envious of. So what happens? The users adapt. "Well, I can do the same thing if I go through this convulted set of steps to arrive at that goal."
Linux is really the same way. Windows has advantages that Linux doesn't necessarily have right a way, but that doesn't mean the Linux users are incapable. They know Linux well enough that they can make it work anyway. And that's good for them, but bad for new users. They don't feel that they need to catch up to Windows. That's fine and all, but what happens when you sit Linux down in front of one newb, and Windows down in front of another newb? It all boils down to the taste of the end-user.
" *cough*mental ray*cough*"
*cough*didn't ship with Maya until like this month.*cough*
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
If that were true, then I would have been hit by one in the last 5 years that I've used it. (Well, 5 years ago I was using OL 97.)
I'm not some bizarre statistic either. My entire company uses Outlook 2000. It's my job to fix their machines if they get hit by a virus. I've only had to help one person with a virus, and Outlook wasn't the vulnerability. It was one of those viruses that tricks you into running an executable. It would have worked with any mail prog he used because it had just the right context to make him open it.
I'm not claiming that OL 2k is rock solid, but it has been quite reliable. Accuse me of spreading fud if you like, I have nothing to gain here but the affection of AC trolls by saying anything even remotely positive about a Microsoft product.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
You're gaining more than you may realize, A.C. You're on my "friends" list, and the lists of several people whom I respect a lot.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Some Outlook viruses weren't even attachments. Since OutLook shows HTML email with IE components, it inherited some insecurities, including some powerful OCX components that were marked "safe for scripting" that could actually do some damage. Just reading an email that used those components could cause damage to your system.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
-Outlook came with my PocketPC.
-Photoshop was... I think $600, and has more than paid for itself. If Gimp is a perfect clone of Photoshop then I might have been able to save that money, but even in that situation I have absolutely no regrets. Photoshop is the de-facto standard there. Knowing Photoshop means quite a bit on my resume. Gimp isn't there. (yet)
- Lightwave was $1,600. And I'm sorry, but there is NO free app that even touches it. Argue with me if you want, but I'm making a living here.
"Do you realize that this stuff is NOT free?"
Do you realize that cost isn't everything? Why would I buy these apps if they didn't provide some sort of return for my investment? Ever think of that? You're providing me with alternatives, but you're not providing me with replacements. Corel PhotoPaint may be 'fine for you', but what makes you think it'll satisfy somebody like me who knows every little detail about how PS works? You'll notice that companies looking for texture artists aren't saying "Must know Corel PhotoPaint".
"In fact unexperienced users find it much more intuitive than Win2000, for example."
I doubt it'll be more intuitive for me. I know Windows 2000 like the back of my hand. I've already paid for it, so there's no point in my trying out Mandrake.
Did you get my original point at all?
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
good backup, personally I like bash scripting combined with bzip2 or gzip.
Backup solutions are the domain of actual technicians, if you claim to be an actual technician but want all gui apps without any basic scripting you should find another field that requires less study.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not again... (Score:2)
"If you ever talk to one of these people, you'll hear all the same, stupid arguments that have been refuted a thousand times before."
What's stupid about saying "If I do that, my computer won't do what I bought it to do."? That's like saying it's stupid when somebody says "If I convert my SUV to a pickup, I won't be able drive my family anywhere!"
"It's okay, I understand that it's a hard thing to change your OS. I mean, the buttons work differently and hell, there's not even a "Start" button to tell you where to start."
You're right. It's hard to change your OS for another one that doesn't provide benefits right away. You said yourself that people will have to 'develop a habit' in order to find it interesting.
"I'll put my money on *nix systems pervasive on business desktop systems by the end of the decade."
I'll join you in that bet. I think that will happen.
"After the herd starts using it at work, becomes comfortable with it, and develops a *nix habit will regular people start seeking out *nix systems for home use."
Um, that works to a degree. There's still work that needs to be done to reach that point. The good news is, there's lots of people doing that and it may very well happen.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Couldn't you have said the very same thing when companies were deciding whether or not to deploy Win3.1? Here came this sortta interesting looking GUI thing that didn't run DOS apps very well, needed more memory and processor power, and had very few apps that ran natively. It caught on mostly on the wings of Excel at that time.
Today folks are asking where the killer app is for the Linux desktop. I imagine this is also what you are referring to. Why on earth would you want to make the leap into the unknown world of the Linux desktop.
I would argue that one major, though not killer, feature is the desktop itself. KDE and Gnome's ability to seemlessly provide multiple workspaces is a pretty compelling thing all by itself.
I'm leaving a number of other very cool and useful things out of this post due to space. With that being said, the killer feature is most likely going to turn out to be X. Yes, the video server that everyone loves to hate. For a fraction of the cost of an equivalent Windows setup, thin clients and their various advantages become possible, and even viable.
Coming all the way back to your initial question though, these apps aren't going to just "appear". First, Unix on the desktop needs to be driven home to those software companies like Adobe and Autodesk. It needs to be painfully obvious that this is a platform that cannot be ignored if they wish to maintain market share.
With that, we're of course back to the great catch-22. No market share on the desktop, no companies developing apps. No apps, no desktop market share. Round and round we go.
Projects like OpenOffice, Gimp, and the like aren't going to be full out replacements for their commercial counterparts all of the time. They do make it possible for enough folks to make the desktop move to increase the market a bit. In so doing it's slowly becoming a market that the software vendors will no longer be able to ignore and still compete.
In my mind, all it's going to take is for one major vendor to make the move with a front line app. A Photoshop or a Dreamweaver for instance. Something that causes the Windows only vendors to sit up and take notice. Until that time, there's plenty of free software that's becoming more competitive with these kinds apps every day.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
I would argue that one major, though not killer, feature is the desktop itself. KDE and Gnome's ability to seemlessly provide multiple workspaces is a pretty compelling thing all by itself.
I don't know; I use Linux every day and I never use multiple desktops. That said, it's a free download for Windows, and almost no one takes advantage of it.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
When I first installed a copy of RedHat onto a box I immediately fell in love with this feature. The box kinda sat there for a while, as I stuck with NT as my primary desktop for a while. Mainly I got Linux going as a test web server at the time, and I didn't have the apps I needed to move over entirely.
Later as the desktop and the applications improved I just found myself over on the Linux box more and more. I eventually moved over to FreeBSD, and haven't looked back. I always have 10 desktops up and running, each dedicated to specific tasks. It's REAL hard to go back to a single desktop now to do any serious work.
That said, it's a free download for Windows, and almost no one takes advantage of it.
It could be that the 3rd party hacks simply aren't as well integrated to the windowing system. The couple of times I tried implementing this on Windows it really stunk. Moving apps between desktops was a pain, and the switching was slow and cumbersome.
Perhaps there are newer apps for doing this that don't suck these days, but for me it's too late. I'm moved over. I just can't imagine going back to what feels like a backwards UI. KDE on FreeBSD just works better all the way around for me.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
Same here. I really couldn't live without them anymore. Actually, I've got two screens, using Xinerama, so I have 6 double virtual desktops...now I can just keep all my apps rolling without ever having windows overlap...
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:4, Interesting)
This is exact thing that is going to bury commercial software. Companies exist to serve shareholders, not customers. Any move to a free platform will be bad for shareholders, therefore they will resist doing it. Customers on the other hand can see the benefits to them of an open platform.
Because the commercial vendors are dragging their feetm open source applications like The GIMP and others keep getting better and better. If Adobe had ported Photoshop to Linux 5 years ago, it would have been great for Linux, but horrible for the GIMP. By the time the commercial vendors figure this out, hopefully it will be too late. We'll have great open source applications on Linux and an irrelevant commercial platform on Windows.
It's a catch 22 situation for commercial software houses. The longer they wait, the longer they maintain shareholder value. But by waiting, they gaurantee their eventual demise as the open source applications become better than "good enough for the price", they become outstanding at any price.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
I don't think that Linux is going to bury commercial software. In fact, there's a fun little market being created now that may actually create sales that wouldn't have happened under Windows for some smaller vendors.
For example, had Macromedia taken the initiative and ported something like Fireworks on over to *nix they would have had an Adobe free market to play in. Web developers would have been all over their stuff, buying the bulk of what they've got to offer in quantity.
Instead, their sales have been flat and there's talk of them being bought out.
Although Photoshop is Adobe's flagship, they have a wide variety of applications sorely needed for the *nix desktop that haven't even begun to get addressed. Any one of them could easily be multiyear projects just to get to a beta stage.
*nix at the desktop is going to need folks like Adobe, no matter how evil they may behave at times. If commercial software is in danger, the time frame is decades, not years.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
And yet, somehow, in the face of all this injustice, the mercantile system has stubbornly hung on by its fingernails yea these past centuries.
Here's a news flash, my friend. Everybody exists to serve themselves, not anybody else. You exist to serve yourself, not me. I exist to serve myself, not you. Companies, made up of and run by groups of people, exist to serve themselves, not any of us.
This is fundamental human nature stuff we're talking about here. It's been true throughout the 10,000 years of recorded history, and it's not going to change any time soon.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:2)
And open source coders code to satisfy their problems, not yours. I can't count high enough to count the feature requests that get answered with "code it yourself". No app, commercial or OpenSource, has an infinite amount of features or an infinite amount of work applied to it. Therefore every app has had choices made in its design and implementation. OpenSource apps may have different decision making processes attached, but they have had conscious choices which may or may not match those of any particular user.
Re:Sheesh, not again (Score:3, Insightful)
10 years ago, Linux was just a toy.
5 years ago, Linux was only useful for webservers and barely for general purpose servers.
2 years ago, Linux was only useful for servers, clusters, mainframes and embedded systems.
Today, Linux is "only" useful for servers, clusters, mainframes, embedded systems, point of sales terminals, thin clients, 3D-modelling-workstations and internet terminals. And if you are no gamer and are not scared from using something different from what was preinstalled, it's a fine desktop too.
Am I really the only one who is seeing a trend here?
Oh wait, Microsoft sees it too ;-)
It's just the Wintrolls who don't get it...
Re:Bah (Score:2)
Re:parent offtopic (Score:2)
Re:Linux in China would be... (Score:2, Informative)
www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5784 [linuxjournal.com].
Re:Africa is not a country... (Score:2, Funny)
they probably know (Score:2, Insightful)
PS Ignore Neal Stephenson; there ARE Chinese hackers. He leaves a trail of greatly amused people everywhere he does research. "One day on site and he knew everything and was ready to move on. I hear he wrote a program once."
Re:that's oh ess ten (Score:2)
The name of the operating system is "Mac OS X." That's pronounced "Mac Oh Ess Ten," because "X" is a Roman numeral.
The most recent version of the operating system is 10.2.3. That's pronounced... oh, you know. The usual way.
So the full and complete name of the most recent version of the operating system is "Mac OS X 10.2.3." Spoken aloud, that sounds like this [uh...].
If this causes a cognitive dissonance response in you, then just sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.
Re:that's oh ess ten (Score:2)
I will happily excuse you for that. It's going to take a bit more, though, to live down making a giant stink about something that hasn't even been a topic of conversation since about 1999.