Largo Loving Linux 352
A little over a year ago, dot.kde.org and Newsforge did stories on the Linux-based systems being used in Largo, FL to run the city government. Roblimo went down there, drank their coffee, and wrote a follow-up piece which might be, but wasn't, entitled "How to be a sysadmin whose pager doesn't go off". (Newsforge is part of OSDN.)
The sysadmins sound so... disturbing. (Score:5, Funny)
Everything backed up... neat stacks of CAT5... no emergencies... no rushing...
Are we quite sure these guys are HUMAN sysadmins, not evil intergalactic sysadmins from Myronacia here to lure us all into their evil plot of low-stress jobs and a life of being eaten?
Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing. (Score:5, Funny)
I bet they don't even drink caffeinated coffee or have Big Ol' Programmers' Beards!
Re:The sysadmins sound so... disturbing. (Score:4, Funny)
A worker complains about how he is having trouble at his factory: if he goes five minutes late, the managers think he is irresponsible; if he goes five minutes early, the managers think he is there to plan some coup.
His friend suggests him to go on time, to which the worker says, "Then, they will are grill me about where I smuggled such an accurate watch from".
Likewise, I am sure the MS reps (and Dubya's brother in FL) would complain that since it doesn't crash often, it must not be doing something big!
Ofcourse, if it is doing something big and doesn't crash, then it should be some plot by the "terrorists".
S
Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Who cares what Great Teacher Largo thinks? (Score:2)
Local and state governments (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Front-end savings on licensing.(perhaps offset by re-training costs)
2) Savings on future licensing
3) Less tech support headaches and consequently less staffing requirements.
As the article illustrates, spending 1.3% off a municipal budget vs. 3% (or 4%) is a substantial savings. Bring that up to the state level and you are talking tens to hundreds of millions.
I won't even start talking about the Feds...
medium-size city in Texas too. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:medium-size city in Texas too. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Local and state governments (Score:3, Insightful)
my wife always tries that one one me when she goes shopping. "it was on sale, so i was actually saving us money". then i look at the checkbook balances and wonder how all those savings are actually debits to the accounts...
the states should have considered open source systems highly 2-3 years ago when they were over inflating their own budgets and spending along with the economies (some were still putting a few dimes away for their rainy day fund which has all been used up by now). open source benefits begin with the initial systems planing and development phase. it would be really hard to justify spending money on migrating systems for future preceived savings.
Re:Local and state governments (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't forget though, every IT department is not in between their upgrade cycles. Some may be (and really should be) planning IT improvements once the economy improves, and tax revenues are flowing again.
Just because you don't have money today, doesn't mean you shouldn't make plans for when you do have money again.
MS Systems have to be upgraded anyway (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Local and state governments (Score:3, Insightful)
That is why migration should not be sudden, but rather a process. Slowly integrate OSS machines into the network (chances are the webservers are already running linux or a bsd) and then eventually kill off commercial machines you don't want anymore. That kind of migration is, in my opinion, the best. Sudden change scares people. But a slow, methodical shift keeps everyone happy.
Re:Local and state governments (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Local and state governments (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Local and state governments (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, but any government of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations not using an OS of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations should similarly be ashamed of itself.
Re:Local and state governments (Score:2, Insightful)
I think the original poster didn't say "No licensing", did he? He said "Savings on future licensing". Even with support costs, it'll be cheaper. You don't pay support costs for MS?
But again, read the article: There is real-world proof.
Re:Local and state governments (Score:2)
Yo!, yourself, there home-slice.
Re:Local and state governments (Score:2)
Unless your fearless leader insisted you use a terrible ERP system like MAS/500 [bestsoftware.com] that actually requires all users to have local administrator priveleges! So, my users can screw up their systems all day. I tried to have this little "feature" registered as a bug, but they didn't think it to be a problem.
Interesting quotes (Score:4, Interesting)
I thought we were against digitized cops with access to all our private data.
Even the Microsoft people couldn't refute the fact that Largo's current setup uses far less hardware and is far easier to administer and physically maintain than an equivalent Windows-based system.
Yay for Linux!
I also was impressed that they spend less than half the money other towns do on their IT. Of course, from the sysadmin POV that's bad as it means they aren't paid much. But that's the price of freedom, I guess.
Digitized Cops (Score:2)
Well, digitized cops are bad, but at least they're not proprietary digitized cops.....This is Slashdot. Duh.
Re:Digitized Cops (Score:2)
The questions are: (i) how much (i) who controls the amount (iii) who guards the guardians?
Experience shows that, while it can be subject to abuse, answering those questions locally is the best way to ensure the maximum amount of freedom.
Sure, maybe Officer Bustem is getting a little out of hand with looking up data on his patrol car tablet. But I can always discuss the issue with my city council member, or even run for city council myself if I don't like the answers. Or I could reasonably move out of Smallville if the laws are ultimately not to my liking. But I have zero chance of influencing the Atty. General of the United States, and it would be very difficult to pick up and move out of the US of A.
So: the technology itself is good. It could be misused. But it is up to the citizens of that juristdiction to control their own fate.
sPh
Re:Digitized Cops (Score:2)
Re:Digitized Cops (Score:3)
The AttyGen may be more of a friend than you realize. Any idea of how many times the AttyGen has taken a local police force into court for civil rights violations where the local politicians turn a blind eye to problems? Here in Ohio, both Cincinnati and Columbus have had recent run-ins with the DOJ over police abuses. The New Jersey State Police, Buffalo, LA, Pittsburg, and DC police are all currently being monitored by the DOJ.
Re:Interesting quotes (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked as the sysadmin/programmer/everything it for a police department for a few years, including working on a project to put laptops in the police cars. Putting laptops in cars is a great idea, but unchecked, could have cause for concern.
Allowing officers to lookup their own plates and see information about the possible drivers, including photos if available, is nothing but a great idea. Its simply a matter of putting information they already access at the right time in the right place. Most of the software also allows them to write and access all their police reports from the car. Not only does this allow them to spend less time working on the interminable paperwork, but be in the field doing it making themselves more valuable to the public.
Now, there also are some major problems with unchecked use of computer systems in the police departments, specifically squad car use. Every incident is logged into huge logbooks, traditionally by the dispatcher. More and more, those logbooks are being moved to computer systems. This allows them to look up any past incidents with a subject much easier.
On one hand, it would be very useful to know that John Doe has a history of violence to police officers, but on the other hand, they are able to build up huge files on people without allowing the subjects to have a trial to defend themselves. Once departments start sharing their incident databases, it would be possible for an officer to lookup any time any police had contact with you, whether you were actually charged with something or not.
It will be interesting to see how this one turns out.
Re:Interesting quotes (Score:2)
I haven't heard anyone arguing that they shouldn't have access to their own data. Oustanding warrants, arrest records, statements and reports, etc.
Now, if they were using it to associate people with their library (!) or health records, that would be a different situation. GAFW. (Get A F-ing Warrant)
-Peter
Re:Interesting quotes (Score:4, Insightful)
I can tell you exactly what info the cops want. They want whatever they can get their hands on that will enable them to go home alive after their shift and be with their families. Nothing more, nothing less.
A very intentional side effect of this is that you'll probably stand a better chance of doing the exact same thing.
Re:Interesting quotes (Score:3, Interesting)
THIS is the person we need to protect the citizens from.. by simply LOGGING every access the officer does and what he does... if officer Jones had 5 stops and 14 complaints he responded to on his last shift but called up 200 people's reports. he really needs to be talked to by the department head and reprimanded for abuse. I say give the cops everything, but watch them closely. as the "power" of the badge goes to their heads quite quickly.
This is GOOD for Sysadmins! (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the real plusses of being UNIX savvy in general, and GNU/Linux/free software/open source savvy in particular, is that one actually often earns a better living than their Microsoftoid equivelents. Why? Because paying one knowledgable person who, in a GNU/Linux, *BSD, or *NIX shop can do the work that requires three or four MSCE's (assuming a modicum of competence on the MSCE's part, an assumption that is, as many here have pointed out repeatedly, is not one that is safe to make), 1.5 - 2 times the salary still translates into a tremendous human resources savings, and brings with it the added benefits of expertise, lower turnover, and attention to detail (and research) pointed out in this article.
If you are saving money because your staffing requirements are lower (in raw numbers of bodies), your licensing costs are lower, and your TCO costs are lower (all nearly always true with GNU/Linux or FreeBSD vs. Microsoft), you can pay a premium for really good people and have the benefits that brings along with tremendous savings.
Which is great for everyone, except shoddy admins who probably should find another line of work anyway. It is certainly great for those of us who know what we are doing and take pride in doing quality work for our clients/employers, and like to be rewarded in kind.
Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! (Score:3, Insightful)
the largest problem and downfall with this is having a city manager that isnt a nutcase. If they can reduce the employee count from 3 to 1 there is no way in hell they will increase the one person's salary even by 50% (which still saves 150% if you did give a 50% raise) in fact they will fight like hell to keep that position to be the same level and pay it is now. Which will have an interesting effect... when the current poor sod quits for a real paying job (>$25,000.00 a year) they will try and hire someone for the same amount. not being able to get one they will instantly blame the entire project a failure and the cause of their woes instead of blaming the City Manager for being an idiot who refuses to pay people what they are worth. (if you pay anyone well pay your IT well as they are your backbone and can crush your entire corp/office like a bug)
i've seen this way too many times in small/ medium cities... when someone get's a raise everyone else getting less than that person whines like fricking children... espically if a manager is making less than a non-manager position... doesn't matter if there is skill required..
Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! (Score:3, Informative)
I work in an all Windows IT environment so your statement does not apply to me.
"Firstly, countless studies have shown that in the TCO game it is a wash"
Actually that's not correct. Linux servers are really no harder to maintain than Microsoft servers in fact due to their stability they are less troublesome. So, even if the cost of administrating them is a wash we still have licensing issues. Microsoft charges a HUGE amount for that. So TCO of a Linux network is about half of the TCO of a Windows network.
For a shop that is switching to Linux there is an initial learning curve that would drive the cost of training up but this would also be true of a Linux shop that was going to switch to Windows.
As far as your proclamation that NT 4.0 servers are stable enough never to need a reboot I say BULLSHIT! Under the advice of Microsoft we reboot at least once a month.
Re:This is GOOD for Sysadmins! (Score:3, Informative)
This was from a support call. $250 per pop btw.
Your "experience" certainly does NOT trump my twenty years of experience. The fact that you appear to be clueless as to the costs of Microsoft licensees proves that.
We purchase unlimited client licenses for our SQL server. It costs us $10,000.00 PER PROCESSOR!! So for a four-processor server we're looking at 40 grand. And that's just for the SQL server!
I suggest that you finish college before trying to pass yourself off as an administrator.
Re:Interesting quotes (Score:3, Informative)
This conclusion you've drawn is so fundamentally flawed I can't even begin to fathom it. Linux trained administrators are often higher paid than their MCS* counterparts. RedHat training costs more and is more comprehensive than MCS*, and it also lasts longer, because it teaches you system fundamentals instead of a flow-chart driven O/S template for a specific version of windows. The total IT cost for Linux shops is lower because the software licenses are zero cost, not because they underpay the admins!
But of course, you know this. You have made a career on Slashdot of posting bullshit [slashdot.org] and insults [slashdot.org]. You are an abusive user bent on malice, and hopefully once the administrators are alerted, they will delete your account.
Stable, Robust, Free. And that's just the coffee. (Score:3, Funny)
What happened to the hundred dollar john? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What happened to the hundred dollar john? (Score:4, Insightful)
The big problem with most goverment organizations I have been associated with is the "use it or lose it" budget strategy. i.e. when X dollars are in the budget you'd better spend it all or next year you'll be cut back.
So when you come in under budget you darn well better be sure this year's spending is enough to keep you going next year, 'cause you ain't getting any more. This makes it really hard dealing with expenditures on durable goods like computers since you can't buy new PCs every three years or so, you have to keep a steady stream of orders going to equalize your long term budget. :-(
Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:3, Insightful)
If every municipality in the US is out on ebay looking for NCD thin clients... Suddenly the price of NCD thin clients is no longer $5 each... it's $500/each. Or the equipment is simply not available.
Ohwell, good luck.
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:2, Informative)
Even paying full price for the terminals, as I'm sure they cautiously budgeted, it's still cost effective.
You have to know that they didn't cruise eBay, see the thin terminals, and then yell, "Hey, this will work!"
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:2)
If I was an IT manager I would not at all be comfortable with that solution as it has a tremendous risk as it prevents you from creating a budget even over the short term.
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:3, Interesting)
Your cobbled together solution doesn't have a fixed cost associated with it, it will cost a different amount weekly depending on what it is you buy. Also as you introduce new cobbled together equipment to the environment, you've increased your support costs as you now have to manage multiple configurations.
It introduces some new variables which would have to be studied. I guess the point is, from an IT manager perspective life is a lot simpler if you can choose a solution and stick with it for at least a year. The cost Risk is also a little easier to handle when buying new equipment as you are fairly assured the prices will go down, not up. Better to come in under budget than over.
I've worked both in private industry and in government, and this cobbled together inelegant solution would probably fly in the government. But with the exception of a few small companies I've dealt with, few in private industry would accept this as a solution.
Again, it reminds me of the recent article discussing the cobbled together PVR [linuxprofe...utions.com]. These were solutions that looked like good ideas when I was new to the industry 15 years ago, but over the years I've learned from experience that they aren't such great ideas.
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:3, Interesting)
Pretty simple. You budget dollars for what reasonably priced new equipment would cost. In actual practice, you can save 80 to 95% of the budgeted amount but cannot reliably count on those savings, so you don't budget the savings. The budget is what you are prepared to spend, only slightly related to what you will spend.
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:2, Interesting)
Only to a certain degree.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:3, Interesting)
So you simply use a different thin client. Personally I would probably opt for something PC based anyhow. The Wal-Mart Linux PCs can be had cheaply enough that you wouldn't feel bad throwing them away, and they would be easy to image with software from the Linux Terminal Server Project. This type of a setup requires a little more work than simply buying X terminals, but the availability of PC hardware is not likely to decrease anytime soon, and you can probably reuse existing PC hardware.
The beauty of thin clients isn't the fact that you can use cheap hardware (though that certainly helps). The beauty of thin clients stems from the fact that you don't ever have to troubleshoot individual PCs. All software can be managed centrally, and failed terminals can be replaced by a monkey.
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:5, Funny)
Get a clue.
Re:Used Equipment + OSS = Cost Savings (Score:2)
Eh.. (Score:2, Funny)
Whatever.
Re:Eh.. (Score:2)
j
I'm waiting... (Score:5, Funny)
for Debian Does Dallas!
Re:I'm waiting... (Score:5, Funny)
But I hope that the people of Dallas use some RedHats for protection before doing such a slutty ditribution
Basically it's a GOOD setup (Score:2, Insightful)
They use the strengths of *nix, and this is just a good example of how good it can work.
I'm sure they have quality people behind this project, and not some pimple-faced 19 year old MCSE who plays Unreal 2003 when he's not making fun of his 'luser' co-workers.
NCD Terms (Score:4, Informative)
Its worth noting that they are using NCD x-terminals. While buying used NCD equipment works well if you've already invested in their hardware, if you are setting up equipment from scratch, it is not an effective solution. NCD does not provide their drivers for download, and charges a fairly hefty amount of money for them, so if you want to set up x-terms at home, or at a small buisness, buy something else, unless you are already familiar with this.
Quite a few people seem to have picked these things up after the last article, not realizing how much of a pain it would be to get them running
Woohoo! (Score:2)
then again my dad is the head tech for a county court system in California and he only buys contract boxes with Windows, all the while making fun of my Linux home network...
Re:Woohoo! (Score:3, Insightful)
Does anyone else see the problem here?
How can courts ruling in various Microsoft issues ever consider themselves impartial when their computers, by contract, run Windows?
Failure cases and recovery (Score:4, Insightful)
and its nice that they are careful and have a redundant system.
But I'm interested in their worst case scenario plans (more than just saying "well, our systems are redundant!") and what is the worst disaster they have had to deal with.
Sure, its cool that they have localized where all the problems are going to be (the servers) but when do they predict the "the network is too slow!" calls will start coming in?
Most important quote... (Score:5, Informative)
Its good to finally see a TCO that is about as unbiased as you can get. Other than this I've not yet to see a TCO (either proclaiming Linux or Windows) that isn't slanted in some way to paid for by a OS supplier.
Having said that, the 1.3% vs. 3% IT budget cost reduction is not all because of linux. All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up. I'm sure their bottom sure would still be significantly less than 3% even if they did use windows. Spending a couple dollars on a dumb terminal equals hugh hardware savings.
I'd say linux is just icing on the cake, (and probably leads to more silent beepers and a couple less admins). Still, remember that this is a total implementation comparision between municipalities, not purely Windows vs. Linux.
Re:Most important quote... (Score:5, Insightful)
All of that dirt cheap hardward adds up
Yes, but if they used windows everywhere, would they be able to use dirt-cheap hardware? No, so even that reduction is a result of using a Linux solution.
Re:Most important quote... (Score:4, Interesting)
I think one important facet is could they run Windows on the same kind of hardware as the equipment they are buying as Linux terminals? Granted, the HW is dirt cheap, but also consider that Windows XP needs to run on a 1Gh+ machine with 128Mb of memory. Suddenly cheap hardware doesn't make sense in a Windows installation.
The big advantage is that old and underpowered systems can be recycled and still used. So Largo sees a cost savings in both SW licensing, and HW costs. But the costs are intertwined. Buying a Windows license also means buying more expensive HW to run it on.
Re:Most important quote... (Score:2, Redundant)
What was your plan for using Windows with the low-cost dumb terminals, again?
Re:Most important quote... (Score:2)
ostiguy
Re:Most important quote... (Score:2)
Re:Most important quote... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Most important quote... (Score:3, Informative)
There are 200+ X-Window terminals. Only some users who need to run MS products connect to MS Terminal Servers using the *nix Citrix client.
marty
Re:Most important quote... (Score:2)
Re:Most important quote... (Score:2)
I also have the impression from the article that they are providing less services than some other cities.
What gives you this impression. What services don't they have?
Re:Most important quote... (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as services, again Roblimo doesn't go into much detail, but towards the end of the article he hints at it with this statement:
"He is upset with other local governments that use Visual Basic or ActiveX to make Intranet and Internet applications with which Largo people must interact"
The key to a good IT solution is that you are meeting the needs of the endusers. Roblimo doesn't address that, but then that's because he is a Linux zealot who are of the old-school belief that life would be easier without endusers.
Re:Most important quote... (Score:2)
I was pretty impressed, actually? What "services" does your city provide that this one isn't?
Linux servers for the masses for 89 bucks! (Score:2)
strange slashdot effect (Score:4, Funny)
Re:strange slashdot effect (Score:2)
Groupware possibilities... (Score:5, Informative)
If compatibility with Outlook is not an issue, this is the easiest and thriftiest way to get groupware functionality.
Re:Groupware possibilities... (Score:5, Insightful)
Once you have a web authentication sorted out, it is then relativly simple to have a corporate directory on the web which allows users to keep their own details up to date, and once this is part of the company culture, you would be suprised as to the quality of this self service data. I have found that this then starts a "virtuous circle" of improving data quality, the more applications trust this data and feed from it, the more users are then reminded to keep the data up to date, the better the data quality becomes and hence the more applications use the data...
If you make your feed system email, then you even have an instant self service password system, since to update their details users can have a temporary password emailed to them, and you will always have their email address.
The return on investment can be fantastic, our most recent project was to replace the data maintained for 50,000 helpdesk users with the (mostly self service) data from the LDAP directory, and this is only one of many similar projects; so give it a go, you may be pleasenly suprised.
Largo From Experiance (Score:2, Interesting)
Why can't schools' do this? (Score:5, Insightful)
My highschool regularly got grants for buying hardware, and would then proceed to spend $2000 per windows workstation, not including software (they didn't license until they got yelled at by M$). But, they wouldn't hire more then 1 IT guy for 250 workstations, so nothing ever worked.
Same at my university. Aside from all the departmental and faculty machines (~4500), there are about 1500 open-area machines for students. These are a mix of unix thin-clients running solaris, and wintel machines, most of which are outdated. They insist upon buying new NCD/Sun thin-clients, running solaris, or buying new Wintel machines running win2k. Yet these machines cost them $1500-$2000 a piece! And all the old unix clinets (~800) running solaris are super slow (5+ minutes to log in!). Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!
Considering the non-existant cost of "outdated" hardware in the marketplace, people would figure out that to run an office suite, web browser, and email, all you need is a P150!!!
Re:Why can't schools' do this? (Score:2)
The Micro ATX case is somewhat bigger than the typical thin client, and having to use modules for the proprietary Nforce/Nvidia drivers is a pain, but at this price everybody is very happy.
Re:Why can't schools' do this? (Score:2)
Me thinks they are connected to a badly architected network...or you are still using the SPARC lunchboxes from over a decade ago. How much of that login time is just the little old processor struggling against the transition from dtlogin (or equivalent) to CDE (or openwin) while working against a wee old NIS server over a 10Mb Ethernet?
Explain to me why a city, with offices here,there, and everywhere, manages to run a linux-based thin-client network, while a university with a huge IT budget runs one that's too slow to use!
The prevailing culture in the university's bureaucracy is living in the stone ages. I.e., it is probably made up of professors and admins who grew up, academically speaking, in the 70's and 80's and haven't learned a new thing since.
Power saving alone... (Score:4, Interesting)
The model of thin client they are using only uses 19-25 watts of power. Compared to a standard PC which uses at least 150 watts, that is a huge power savings. True, the monitor uses about half the power, but that can be miminized if you also switch to a lcd.
Vacation? (Score:2, Funny)
the complicated way to do a vacation ... (Score:2)
Of course, if he lived in the Dakotas, he'd probably write the same story more for the reason you're suggesting
FL: low taxes, high sun, all the swampland you can eat.
timothy
What exactly is running on their servers? (Score:2)
Anyone got a link that really gets into detail on the server side?
jonathan
the real revolution.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Hell, I can't even buy reconditioned palms with manufacturer warranty direct from palm - not only is palm not an "approved vendor" for purchasing palms from (go figure..), but our purchasing policies explicitly ban reconditioned or secondhand items. As for *ebay*..
Well done to Largo for giving these guys the ability to use a little flexibility and common sense.
Whats the big hoopla? (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's wonderful Largo is able to work with this model. Many corporations still use it in specific instances. I don't see it as revolutionary.
I would be worried somewhat if I was a Largo police officer and I had a thin client in my car that used a wirless service. This is pushing it. Maybe if I had redundant wirless coverage on multiple frequencies I'd feel less vulnerable. But to me, the police car is exactly the type of environment where you want an intelligent heavier client. One that can cache the last couple of inbound messages, cache the last lookup you did on a license plate, maybe also proactively download other information based on the information you searched for, so that in the event of an outage, you aren't s.o.l.
I found this quote unusual too:
This doesn't seem accurate in the least bit. I'm not sure why they simply don't say "look, it was about money". Because that I could believe.
Their network is run off two boxes, each dual-processor. One a ML370 and another a ML350. One's a dual 933 the other a dual 1ghz.
Now, using these boxes and assuming a gig of RAM at least (not specified in article), Terminal services or Citrix could have easily services 150-250 users on _each_ box. Granted, it depends on what they are doing (so called, light, medium, or heavy users).
I'm not saying Terminal Services, or Citrix would have been better. I'm glad their operations run as smoothly as they do. I just wish people would be honest and simply say "yeah, of course it was about the licensing fees". The reason they probably are not saying this, is I bet MS offered them free licenses to get them to switch, and they don't want their City Council hearing they could have had it all for free, but opted not to in a "fuck u" gesture to MS....
-malakai
Re:Whats the big hoopla? (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect they aren't using 802.11b or cellular for their wireless connection. Probably they're using a radio datalink on a dedicated channel in a band reserved for their use. Those tend to be much less susceptible to link-lossage.
As for as Terminal Services or Citrix, I've used both. Their performance does not measure up to X11 in a remote application, because X11 was designed for network connections while TS and Citrix were both grafted onto a system that assumed it was dealing with a physical screen. You can do a lot hooking into GDI, but in the end the system wasn't designed to support the application. Server performance isn't the bottleneck, it's the relatively low-bandwidth connection between the server and the client.
As for free license fees, sure they're free now. Is MS going to guarantee that all upgrades to all future versions will also be free? I doubt it, and there's the hook inside that tasty free-license bait. With Linux, the city's guaranteed that in 10 years their system will still be available without paying license fees or worrying about license bookkeeping to keep the BSA off their backs.
Re:If only it weren't in Florida (Score:3, Funny)
Re:If only it weren't in Florida (Score:2)
Besides, I lived where it didn't snow in winter for years -- no fun. Snow is great.
I live here (Score:2)
Re:If only it weren't in Florida (Score:3, Funny)
Well yeah, but do you really want to live in God's Waiting Room?
Re:If only it weren't in Florida (Score:2)
Re:If only it weren't in Florida (Score:3)
But its a great place to visit if you got an extra hundred bucks...
Re:Florida is a terrible place to live. (Score:3, Funny)
way to go,
This has *got* to be copy-pasted... (Score:2)
WTF do you think all the distros do?
The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.
Ah, yes. Goofy. Much like an apple with a bite out of it, or somesuch. Yes, I'm sure there are tons of IT people turning down Linux because they don't like the logo.
Downplay RMS, Linus, ESR, etc.
When a big IT department wants to buy Linux, they talk to Red Hat, not to the Linux Kernel Mailing List. This is not an issue.
DirectX
Oh, come on. I *know* you know about WINE.
Finally FOCUS GROUPS
Golly gee, that would be what Sun was doing with GNOME, wouldn't it? Or *any* of the big vendors do. Hmm...
Re:This has *got* to be copy-pasted... (Score:2)
Kintanon
Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE (Score:2)
2) The Penguin logo MUST go ASAP.
I am not sure about this. Maybe he needs to be restyled or something, but not done away with completely. Taking away Tux is like taking away the Apple logo. There is an association there, like it or not.
4) Direct X - A MAJOR stumbling block on Linux's road to world domination is the lack of Direct X support for Linux
There is such a thing. It is known an LibSDL [libsdl.org]. There are probably others, but this is the one that I know the best.
Now to some other issues:
Part of the problem is a culture clash and there are too many hard-liners on both side of the fence. What we need is a way to bring both sides together, in a way that suits both parties, rather than make them feel that they are giving in. People in marketing depend on the people doing the research and people in research depend on the people in marketing. Until both parties realise that, they each depend on each other, we aren't going to get far.
The anti-communist attitude is very American and illustrates a fear of an alternative approach to things. You can be socialist with out being a communist. Many contries in the world, such as European countries, successfully balance a social and commerical agenda.
Linux was original targeted as a server solution and does it does a good job there. I think part of the problem is that we are asking too much from Linux. We shouldn't be going out and expecting everyone to be using Linux. Rather we should be concentrating on making a great product and let those who wish come when they want. We can't be all things to all people and this is the most important lesson.
The best marketing are case studies. Both good ones and bad ones and evaluating why things worked and why things didn't work. Its also good for people developing with Linux to know why things went wrong and address the issues.
This is a Troll. Here is the proof. (Score:3, Insightful)
[google.com]
"Here are a few example comments from a focus group session from Q3 1999 in response to a question about their attitudes to Linux and open source software"
A complete phrase like this should be unique if this article were original. It is not. There is an archive of the troll here, which was originally posted to slashdot on 6/25/2000:
[spiralx.co.uk]
http://www.spiralx.co.uk/texts/troll2.html
Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE (Score:2)
You forgot to mention the RedHat logo. Now there's a sinister, shady character if I ever saw one. How would you like to have him poking around inside your network at 3am?
Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE (Score:2)
How about we be adults and mod the parent post up instead of giving him the troll raspberries?
Side note: I do think the penguin could be the Linux "happy face" mascot, but a sleek professional looking logo is definitely needed as well.
Re:Open Source is NOT the issue - it's the IMAGE (Score:2)
Yeah, you're "focusing" on only the comments of people technically astute enough to use newsgroups and IRC. Those people could use your product to begin with. You need to focus on getting the feedback of people that don't know how to use NNTP and don't know that IRC even exists.
Re:Knowledgable IT's (Score:2)
ostiguy
Worth it (Score:2)
Re:Knowledgable IT's (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sysadmin, so I can only speculate here, but doesn't that go with the territory? In other words, it sounds like you're saying, "Whoa, in order to implement something like this, we would actually need sysadmins that can do their jobs." Sorry, but I would think that being intelligent/knowledgable/creative would be almost part of the job description of any halfway-decent sysadmin.