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Australia, China and Snowboard Shops Use Linux 156

Posted by michael from the GNU/unstoppable dept.
Miscellaneous stories about Linux usage today: the Australian government has allowed (but not required) its agencies to switch to Linux. China is apparently going to go all-Linux for the 2008 Olympic games in Beijing. And business2.com has a story about chain of snowboarding shops (and other businesses) deploying Linux cash registers and desktops.
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Australia, China and Snowboard Shops Use Linux More

Australia, China and Snowboard Shops Use Linux

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  • In the spirit of MLP (Score:4, Interesting)

    by King of the World ( 212739 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:03AM (#4606296) Journal
    In New Zealand the first semi-major national chain company has come out with a Linux box. Go to dse.co.nz [dse.co.nz] and search for Mandrake. Until now it was only "mom and pop" (as American's would say) stores, and then you go an empty machine.

  • Important to remember (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:05AM (#4606303)
    Linux being adopted in more places isn't necessarily a victory. If it performs badly, they will just switch back to Windows or UNIX. I hope, really, that they have decided on Linux because they believe it's the best tool for the job, and not simply to cut costs or to rebel against Microsoft. If Linux is the right tool for the job, only then is it really a victory. I would be cautiously optimistic about Linux being used on more and more places.

    • Re:Important to remember (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rovingeyes ( 575063 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:20AM (#4606355)
      I hope, really, that they have decided on Linux because they believe it's the best tool for the job, and not simply to cut costs or to rebel against Microsoft.

      I can agree with the part of Linux being right for the job but I beg to disagree that govts are not doing these to cut costs. A major decision in any govt approach to a new idea or technology is primarily driven by costs. Hell, even new guns have to confirm to a set price by govt, only then govt will buy them in bulk. And we all know the licensing policy of M$ is a real pain in the ass.

      • Well, there is another factor as well: the OS is open. I think this is a major issue for a government - it's a rather strange situation for your government secrets to be stored on machines that are run by a closed system delivered by a foreign company that may or may not be cooperating in snooping.

        I would hope, btw, that such deployment would have as a direct effect that much more work will be done on improving linux desktop capabilities and speeds... the speeds I'm getting on default installations is not very motivating.

      • Re:Important to remember (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Savage-Rabbit ( 308260 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:11AM (#4606694)
        If I remember correctly the Chinese adopted LINUX because of the Open Source system which guarantees that there are no CIA,NSA... etc... back doors in the code, and even if there are backdoords a codereview will find them. One of the main motivations would thus have been that they did not trust Microsoft to stand up to the pressure to integrate backdoors for US security/intelligence services in their Windows dialects. Germany is following a similar trend [germany-info.org]. Although they keep ranting on about cost cutting, word has it, that a condsiderably larger part of the real reason than the German Govt. would like to admit in public is a desire for increased security. And Germany is not alone in this either, I suspect that more countries will take a second look at LINUX now that G. W. Bush Jr. is in the White House ensuring that the worlds trust in the USAs trustworthyness has reached a new low point. It would appear that the xerox spycam episode [parascope.com] and how it was used to spy on enemies as well as allies has not been entirely forgotten after all. You can of course gripe about this being ancient history but there are more recent examples, such as the NSA abusing the ECHELON system [go.com] for industrial espionage. Not that I as a European am pissed about this sort of thing, we do industrial espionage over here too. It is a grand old tradition as old as humanity and occasionally we over here in the old world even manage to sc*ew US companies in the b*tt just like the US Govt sc*ewed Airbus. I bet you are now tempted to write me off as an anti Microsoft NUTTER, but I fail to see why we should make it easy for the USA to sabotage our industry or read our private files off our hard disk. Lets face it, it is alot harder to keep the NSAs nose out of ones data with M$ Windows (notice I put the fashioable $ sign in the Microsoft ancronym) than it is to protect ones privacy under LINUX.
    • Additionally,

      Linux powering cash registers isn't much of a victory. This isn't an area where anyone notices, nor anyone cares, about things like usability: as long as it's stable and can do basic math, it works; things like fast VMs, threading, and all of the other things that make linux work well for servers are relatively useless in a cash register.

      • Re:Important to remember (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Blackneto ( 516458 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:30AM (#4606381) Journal
        I think it is a victory.
        The people that provide cash registers and POS systems are always looking to lower the bottom line to increase profits. Licensing OS's to run thier software on adds that much more. They also need to have a stable platform to base thier systems on to keep the customers happy. If Linux succeeds there, then it will get noticed by others in the industry and word will spread by mouth and trade magazines.
        Maybe partially related... Compaq's new Smartstart 6.0 CD is Linux based. this allows them to get out of the licensing from MS for thier server configuration software. Before they had to pay MS for each CD they pressed because they were using a Windows platform.

        Joe Sixpack may not notice all this, but the people that spend the big money are starting to.
      • I beg to differ. It's the public perception that counts. If it's good enough to trust handling money, it's gotta be good. Who cares about threading? It has to stay up and do its work. And make no mistakes.

        All it needs is a penguin decal on the side.
    • the hypothesis that being Open Source (tm) is one of the things that can be legitimately considered as one of the parameters to decide whether it's "the right tool for the job"?

      Indeed that being Open Source (tm) is a possible *feature* that might be valued?

      KFG

      • Re:I would submit for your approval. . . (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Twirlip of the Mists ( 615030 ) <twirlipofthemists@yahoo.com> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @04:54AM (#4606603)
        I think, unfortunately, that your hypothesis is wrong in the majority of cases. Whether software comes with source code or not matters to some people, certainly, but not to most. And if it matters at all, it can just as easily be a liability as it can an asset.

        Ninety-nine out of a hundred people literally wouldn't know source code if they saw it, so having it is no tangible benefit to them. In fact, it can easily be seen as a liability, because most of the software that is available in source code form is not supported by any vendor. If a company were to adopt a piece of open-source software that was only supported by an individual or a small group, and that individual or group were to stop developing and supporting that software, the company would have no choice but to accept responsibility for supporting the code themselves. (Or to quickly adopt something else.) That's a serious liability to, say, a company that makes point-of-sale systems.

        Not every open-source program would be susceptible to such an event. But most of them would, and that-- if anything-- is what non-computer people will associate with the words "open source." "Open source," most often, means flying without a net.

        Again, just to emphasize, I'm not talking about facts here. I'm talking about generalities, and the perceptions that are based on those generalities.
        • That's very true.

          I switched from Windows to Mandrake earlier in the year, but not directly because of the open source aspect. My main reasons for switching were:
          Stability
          Cost (although I can use Windows for free if I was so inclined)
          Privacy issues
          Secure - in terms of viruses

          I do realise that many people couldn't care less whether their operating system is proprietary or free, however, I know the benefits that open source software brings and I do benefit from that indirectly, in terms of the reasons I mentioned earlier.

          Tim

        • Re:I would submit for your approval. . . (Score:5, Insightful)

          by kfg ( 145172 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @09:04AM (#4607199)
          Is that a yes or a no? It's hard to tell. I'd have to guess by your qualification of "the majority of cases" that it's a *yes.*

          Nor were we contextually discussing the majority of cases so I'm left to assume you took this as an opportunity to make your point irrespective of the topic, per se.

          I can tell you for sure that if I were a Chinese government agency the idea of running propriatary American code would spook the living bejeezus out of me. I'd also put forth as a hypothesis that * the government of China* has a peck of programer power at its beck and call. Just as an educated guess mind you.

          There are crack programers beyond the American shores. Linus is a Finn. Alan Cox is English. The two most obvious cases that come to mind.

          The Chinese developed the A-bomb, H-bomb and ICBM's all without American aid at all. I'd hazard they've got a person or two who can manage to find their way around in postgres and Abiword. I'd wager even their lowliest "steno pool girls" could manage to whack out a memo in vi. Just because it's become culturally "de riguer" in Santa Monica to pass "meet me for lunch" notes as PowerPoint presentations doesn't mean the whole world works to those standards.

          Governments are one of the *prime* "customers" for which having source is more often a valuable feature than otherwise.

          As for point of sale systems that, oddly enough, is a field I've actually worked in. Point of Sales systems are almost *invariably* developed in house, either as a propriatary product for resale to vendors, or by the vendors themselves. One of the reasons MS has begun it's "shared code" program is directly due to the demand from such developers for code access. Point of Sale systems have been one of the fields that open source OS's have made the greatest inroads into specifically because of the availability of code down to the lowest level. Developers of Point of Sales systems aren't "abandoned" of support. It's *their* code. What worries them most is being dicked around by *their OS supplier.* What's more, those vendors that buy their Point of Sale systems from a developer almost invariably * demand source* as part of the sales contract to protect themselves in case the supplier goes under.

          Point of Sales was perhaps the worst example you could have chosen.

          Now the fact of the matter is that I don't give a hoot about actually having the source code to vim personally. I guess this is "the majority of cases" you're talking about.

          On the other hand, because vim *is* open source and uses open formats for its output * it doesn't matter a hoot to me* if the developers "abandon" it. Transfering my data to a new "vendors" product takes. . .well, no time at all actually. Not to mention the fact that if it's "abandoned" * it still works.*

          You see, most of the time people suffer when a code maintainer has abandoned them is *because* the code and it's file formats are propriatary!

          Ironically in my own businesses I've more often suffered *because* the code maintainer of a propriatary bit of software kit continued to "develop" it.

          Trust me on this one. I know. If you're running your *own* small business and the cost of your software being "maintained" by a propriatary vendor is coming out of your *own* pocket instead of going to food on your table you become really, really aware of the "feature" that Open Source software offers.

          emacs doesn't break. emacs writes perfectly good internal memos and business letters. I've never had an ascii text file rejected because someone couldn't open it under their OS. ascii doesn't change its "file format" every three years to force me to buy a new text processor. If I need a "feature" in emacs I can either add it myself or have one of my people do it ( I hire smart people). If I need something fancier than plain text emacs produces nifty HTML and XHTML.

          Just one download and I had all my text processing needs taken care of, essentially, forever!

          I rather fancy the government of China has considered *these very issues.*

          What is the number one "feature" most people claim for MS Office. Why, that it shares files with . . . MS Office.

          Well, if you are a government, and you have the power of fiat to declare yourself MS free. . .that "feature" kinda goes "Poof," don't it?

          All of a sudden Kword looks mighty tasty. . .and it works! Hell, if they stopped "maintaining" it it could even be a boon because now you'ld have a working and *long term stable* product.

          But then, as you have the grace to admit in your closing, you weren't talking about facts anyway. Now were you?

          KFG
          • Um... what the fuck are you talking about? It doesn't seem like my post and your response had anything to do with each other.

            Go back and read my post again. I said, basically, that the vast majority of people don't care about having source code. You then talked about a couple of specific examples, which is all fine and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people don't care about having source code.

            Then you started talking about file formats. I have to ask... what does this have to do with anything? Most commercial software supports both open and proprietary formats. Word, to use your example, supports not only the proprietary binary Word file format, but also the open RTF format. Documents created in Word can easily be converted to RTF, if the user so desires, just by doing a "Save As." Heck, you can even save plain ASCII text out of Word. Maya, which is the program I'm using at the moment, supports its own model format, but also virtually every other model file format. No proprietary lock-in here.

            Generally speaking, I don't see what your post has to do with mine. I said that your hypothesis was wrong because being "open source" doesn't matter to practically anybody, and when it does matter, it's more of a liability than an asset. Then you started spewing FUD about file formats and, naturally, got moderated up for it. Bewildering.
    • Linux being adopted in more places isn't necessarily a victory. If it performs badly, they will just switch back to Windows or UNIX. I hope, really, that they have decided on Linux because they believe it's the best tool for the job, and not simply to cut costs or to rebel against Microsoft. If Linux is the right tool for the job, only then is it really a victory. I would be cautiously optimistic about Linux being used on more and more places.


      I am neither "for" nor against Linux, but whenever I hear about it hitting user desktop machines en masse I always chuckle. The problem isn't getting it out there on people's machines - that much is easy, it's given away for free. The problem isn't distribution, or cost. The problem is getting it to a state where it's actually usable for the vast majority of people.

      I would be willing to bank on the fact that Linux in an easy-to-use state will never happen. It is made by nerds, for nerds. Every time there's an attempt to make it "easy to use", failure is the result. What was the name of the last company trying to make it easy to use? Easel, wasn't it? It was started up by the guys that started up Apple. They, like so many before them, failed. And you know where they ended up working? Apple.

      You want easy to use Unix on the desktop? Salvation doesn't lie with Linux, I'll tell you that much... for an OS (or anything, really) there needs to be a degree of standardisation, and Linux's decentralised nature is the very thing that has made it successful in the server & enthusiast market.

      This isn't to say having Linux in Govt is a bad thing - quite the opposite. But so often on Slashdot, people talk about sticking Linux everywhere. So often, what they don't see is that it would be like trying to fit a round peg in square hole.

      There are a variety of tools available to solve every computer problem... don't assume that the one you know best is the one that will do the job best.

      -- james
      • I would be willing to bank on the fact that Linux in an easy-to-use state will never happen. It is made by nerds, for nerds. Every time there's an attempt to make it "easy to use", failure is the result. What was the name of the last company trying to make it easy to use?
        Redhat. I think they're still around, they have a little site here [redhat.com] where you can find out more!
      • At first they ignore you.
        Then they laugh at you.
        Then they fight you.
        Then you win.

        Sounds like you are still at the laughing stage. That by no means says that you will stay there.
        • you guys just don't get it, do you. Instead of either of you addressing my criticisms, you quote cliches (even if they are by Ghandhi) and point me off to the RedHat site. Wow, I hadn't heard of RedHat before, thanks for pointing it out.

          And to say I'm laughing at Linux, even figuratively, is crap. You're missing my point. What I was trying to say was, just because it's free, and open source, it does not mean it's going to be the panacea to the world's problems, IT or otherwise.

          -- james
          • What I was trying to say was, just because it's free, and open source, it does not mean it's going to be the panacea to the world's problems, IT or otherwise.
            I agree. However you made remarks in your earlier post to the effect that Linux is a bust when it comes to a mass market desktop - which I think is what is attracting the flames. A year ago I would have fully agreed with those generalizations. I set up a couple of Linux desktops and they were just too much of a hassle to configure for my uses. Even a standard office-type workstation required a lot of hinking around with package dependencies and so on. Server apps were tight and - surprise - that's what most mainstream uses were all about. Bottom line there are two things that make an O/S successful to the masses:
            1. The Killer App, otherwise known as a useful office suite.
            2. Automated configuration. When you want to install the latest doodad it shouldn't require editing .conf files and creating scripts. Click on install and answer the dialogs when they pop up then sit back and enjoy your new stuff.

            That being said, I just tried it again after reading some really positive press (namely WalMart selling $200 home systems with Linux). I downloaded and burned the Redhat 8.0 CDs and what a remarkable change! If it weren't for the fact that I would have to buy a $70 license to hit my Exchange server with Ximian, I could actually load this on my work laptop and be able to get my job done (in a shop married to M$). For home, this distribution works nearly perfectly. The biggest hassle was re-sizing the single Windows partition to accomodate another O/S and discovering the crappy webcam that was on my store bought system was trumping the soundcard. Aside from that, the "out-of-the-box" install was a breeze. All the office apps work well and will read/write M$ formats. Package manager makes software setup almost painless (as long as a binary package exists for what you want).

            One or two more iterations with Redhat and the like and widespread acceptance is on the way.
            • Thanks for the thoughtful reply :) It has improved, but there is a threshold over which I don't think Linux will ever reach in the ease of use stakes. Installation is one aspect, but there is the UI consistency and a number of other components that go into making software easy to use.

              What happens if Joe Bloggs wants to get on the wireless bandwagon with his laptop? Do you think he'd be able to do it running Linux? This is just one aspect. How about plugging in a digital video camera?

              You might say one or two more iterations of RedHat, but there'll be someone else that says one or two more iterations of Debian or SuSe or TurboLinux or Corel Linux or United linux. See where I'm going?

              -- james
      • Every time there's an attempt to make it "easy to use", failure is the result. What was the name of the last company trying to make it easy to use? Easel, wasn't it? It was started up by the guys that started up Apple. They, like so many before them, failed. And you know where they ended up working? Apple.

        That's right. Just ignore the fact that Easel had a hopeless business model. (Selling a file manager? get real). No, they were making Linux easy, and they failed. So everyone trying to make Linux easy is doomed to failure.

        Lets all say it unison so that we learn it right:

        Lots of companies sprung up in the dot-com era. Some of them were "Linux companies". Most of them had business models with un-sustainable and unrealistic revenue sources. Most of them crashed when the dot-com "bubble" burst. Don't be so quick to attribute their failures to Linux.
        • That's right. Just ignore the fact that Easel had a hopeless business model. (Selling a file manager? get real).


          Yeah, well, least they were trying to sell something.

          No, they were making Linux easy, and they failed. So everyone trying to make Linux easy is doomed to failure.


          Let's just say it's got a great track record then.


          Lets all say it unison so that we learn it right:


          Is that what your kindergarten teacher said to you today?


          Lots of companies sprung up in the dot-com era. Some of them were "Linux companies". Most of them had business models with un-sustainable and unrealistic revenue sources. Most of them crashed when the dot-com "bubble" burst. Don't be so quick to attribute their failures to Linux.


          Apple took Unix [slashdot.org] and made it easy to use within what, a year?

          How long have the various Linux varieties had? And by easy to use, I mean your grandma could do it.

          Linux is not there. Like I said, I'll bank on it never getting there, either. There are a variety of reasons why I don't think it will, and they're up in the original post. Unlike you, I wasn't trying to flame or troll. They're valid points, and you may have said your bit on Easel, but the rest still stands.

          -- james
          • Is that what your kindergarten teacher said to you today?

            Ooh, you're really trolling aren't you? Luckily you included something more substantial, so I'll respond to that.

            Apple took Unix [slashdot.org] and made it easy to use within what, a year?

            Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of the Aqua stuff based on NeXTstep/OpenStep that Steve Jobs brought with him from NeXT? That stuff went through a number of versions (version 4 was the last I think) over perhaps a decade. And my recollection might be off, but I thought it was longer than a year. Use your head, no one can come up with something like OS/X in only a year.

            • Ooh, you're really trolling aren't you? Luckily you included something more substantial, so I'll respond to that.


              I was annoyed at your tone :P You speak down to somebody, they will tend to get annoyed. I certainly didn't do anything to deserve it.

              Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of the Aqua stuff based on NeXTstep/OpenStep that Steve Jobs brought with him from NeXT? That stuff went through a number of versions (version 4 was the last I think) over perhaps a decade. And my recollection might be off, but I thought it was longer than a year. Use your head, no one can come up with something like OS/X in only a year.


              Aqua itself? No, they started on a completely fresh sheet. Yes, much of the OS X underpinnings came from NeXT - but not the user interface, not the ease of use. That was all developed within Apple once they had acquired NeXT etc.

              I am guessing that you haven't used OS X. Once you use it, you really start to get an idea of what an easy to use interface is. It is also the reason why you'll find so many of the /. crowd are making positive noise (see the link from my previous post) about Apple.

              -- james
    • flame on: "right tool for the job" demonstrates this person isn't engaging the first tool that's necessary: the brain! when using your brain, you notice other people using their brain and what naturally follows is: the question! which question, you ask? well, how about: why? if you use your brain and respect that others use their brain, you don't bandy about phrases like "i hope [insert personal prejudices here] and they are doing it instead because it is the right tool for the job". let's kill this slovenly meme now.

      thi

  • 2 more years (Score:4, Interesting)

    by e8johan ( 605347 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:09AM (#4606320) Homepage Journal
    Just wait for two more years and some european goventment agencies will probably be dominated by open source software. The countries I'm thinking of are Germany, England, Sweden and Spain. All these contries have initialized open source studies or started with test installations of open source alternatives.

    When looking at what software that is used, it looks like KDE has an edge in Europe, specially in Germany and Sweden. But also OpenOffice is actively evaluated.
    • I had no Idea that KDE and OO.o were competing products as suggested by it looks like KDE has an edge in Europe, specially in Germany and Sweden. But also OpenOffice is actively evaluated. Could you maybe elaborate on your meaning here?
      • What I meant was that KDE seems to be prefered in front of other desktop solutions, for example Gnome (I'm not flaming!). As for the OpenOffice part, I just indicated that it is more mature than KOffice (again, not flaming!).

    • Re:2 more years (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Kenzai ( 608029 )
      Norwegian govt. agencies are already in the process of adopting Linux solutions, after the M$ govt. deal was booted. The University enviroments in Norway are solid in Linux kowledge (Unix too of course) great for recruitment (lets not forget TrollTech). There is a remote education system run on Linux by a facutly (ILS) at the Univ. of Oslo with several schools countrywide participating - at 1/3 of the price that IBM offered an equivalent commercial system based on M$.

      I think this article is great and especially China who have already adopted Linux within several govt. agencies. The Olympics are of such importance to them internationally that they would not risk it on a unreliable OS (events like this rely alot on such systems - worked with it at the Winter Olympics in '94). China will make this work and it must really rattle the M$ cage!

      My 0.02

    • Re:2 more years (Score:2, Informative)

      by ville ( 29367 )
      Yesterday I saw on TV that the Finnish parliament is upgrading its computers to Windows XP and training was to commence soon as well.Wasn't very specific but I guess it meant the desktop machines.

      In any case someone is interested in Finnish parliament: http://www.eduskunta.fi/efakta/index01.htm couldn't see anything regarding Windows XP upgrade though. // ville
  • I hope the media covers this when they do those "behind the scenes" pieces about the infrastruce that makes the games happen. Could be some seriously good press for Linux.

    /wishful_thinking

    • I seriously doubt this will happen, here's why: The technology sponsor (their contract is for Salt Lake - Beijing) has started developing there clients. They have spent a couple of years before Salt Lake, and continue to refine there software. The client is designed for Windows. I don't think that they will want to spend the time/money to port their software to a different platform when it works fine on Windows.

      As the article states, this is still up for debate. The sponsors are included in this debate. The sponsors will get their way, because money talks.

      Unfortunately, the way the Olympics are run, the sponsors will continue to drive their technologies & brands. Unless the IOC changes how they operate, the current trends will continue.

  • Snowboarding shops using Linux... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Xpilot ( 117961 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:10AM (#4606325) Homepage
    ...and the mental image I get is a penguin on a snowboard. I think I've seen a rendered image of that somewhere...

  • how bizarre (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sssmashy ( 612587 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:14AM (#4606337)
    The move enforces the Chinese government's stance as a champion of the development of independent operating systems.

    Ironic, considering the Chinese government's stance as a champion of the repression of independent belief systems...

    • Ironic, considering the Chinese government's stance as a champion of the repression of independent belief systems...

      speaking as US citizen...I can say not really that suprising. they supposedly do things for and by the mass public. unlike here in the US where everyone knows its all corporate
    • I seriously doubt the Chinese government cares much about how well the open source community's values sit with its own. This is not a political statement, it's a sensible, practical decision.

      IMO what the Chinese government cares about, when choosing linux, is:

      1. Cost - both (a) immediate, obvious costs, and (b) potential long-term costs - what happens to the pricing of MS products when the exchange rate changes dramatically? and what happens when they become dependent on one vendor's product and then that vendor decides to screw every last cent... er, yuan... out of them?

      2. Access to source code - otherwise they have to trust Microsoft (or some other, probably American, vendor) to keep their secrets. If you were a country known to be an enemy/competitor (economically, politically and potentially militarily) to the United States, would you want your government agencies to use an American closed-source software solution? Unless you could trust the vendor 100%, no. "Trust Microsoft 100%" - think about that for a while...
      • I think your points are out of order. #2 is probably much more important than #1, imo.
      • Check out the story Red Flag Linux beats out Windows in Beijing [theregister.co.uk]. The cost isn't the main concern of the Chinese government. Giving the money to the foreigner companies is. There are other case of government awarded contract to higher bidding local firm than dominating foreigner players.

        The government in Beijing has been using its IT budget to protect the domenstic software companies and give them a chance to grow.

  • Goodbye Sun? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by lpret ( 570480 ) <lpret42 AT hotmail DOT com> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:16AM (#4606346) Homepage Journal
    I noticed that in the article one of their "two" user groups were high end programmers/engineers. There was a quote from a Verizon guy saying: "moving 300 programmers at its nationwide IT facilities from expensive Sun and Hewlett-Packard (HWP) workstations to less expensive models running Linux.".
    Is this really a viable option? I'm not talking about "can get along with" software, but truly impressive and equal/better than Sun boxes? If so, and if it's only down to software, where does Sun stand in this?

    • Re:Goodbye Sun? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by rovingeyes ( 575063 )
      Maybe it is too soon for anyone to predict the end of sun or for that matter any other OS. Ever heard of legacy systems. Well they are still there becoz most companies don't bother moving or upgrading their systems for only one reason - "they work". An example to prove this is that while at a carrier fair I saw atleast 20 companies asking for COBOL experience. So this means all these companies are using those legacy mainframes.

      Have you ever seen an owner of 1970 mustang convertible trade up for the latest model?

    • Re:Goodbye Sun? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by azimir ( 316998 )
      Sun is in a bind.

      They're market has partially been dependant upon OS licensing, but truly they are a hardware company.

      One solution they have, if they choose to pursue it, is to expand their "Sun Linux" projects to produce much better Linux support for Sun hardware. This would allow Sun to sell more hardware, and have lower overhead of software development by using GNU tools and OSS sources.

      It is also a chance for them to sell more support contracts. Just like they've always done.

      Wether or not Sun can afford to do this and survive is an exercise in speculation. Many intelligent people have predicted the commodization of the OS and this is just one example of that.
  • While it's great that the world's most populous nation is adopting open source, there is one problem with it: the leadership of China are some of the most brutal and flagrant abusers of human rights, and companies such are Red Hat are catering to their notion that Taiwan is a "Renegade Province" and somehow belongs to China, when the opposite is true.

    Formosa (Taiwan) was never controlled by China, and China only wants to siphon off its strong capitalist economy and end the most basic freedoms in the country to exercise hegemony.

    Most notably, RedHat has removed the Taiwanese Flag from RedHat 8.0 to appease China's ruling Communist Party -- this is an insult to the Taiwanese, who value their freedom and independence, and are constantly under the threat of a Chinese communist attack by China, and RedHat is disavowing their very right to exist by removing the flag.

    Put [The Taiwanese] National Flag Back! [linux.org.tw]

  • I bet Beijing games will actually be all-Microsoft (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ... because announcing "we will go Linux" if your quite visible, causes Microsoft to fly in Steve Ballmer to give an offer you can't refuse. Just like Telstra.

  • What's the deal with the snide little qualifier 'but not required' for Australian entities switching to Linux?

    Isn't the concept of required operating systems anathema to everything Linux stands for?

    Sounds like the pigs are walking upright and living in the farmers house.
  • More details here [beijing-2008.org]

    Main page here [beijing-2008.org].
    • Hate to followup my own thread, but I forgot to quote in the document about the topic, for those who don't care to read them all:

      This project covers as follows: study of the information system for the Olympic competition and key technology and mobile communication-aided support based computer-aided Judge system, the Olympic comprehensive information consultative service system, and mass data storage and processing technology and development of LINUX based network office automation software etc.

      You can find above here [beijing-2008.org]. As you see, they are specifically mentioning LINUX, not just for a choice of business bids. :)

  • What are they running? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by 1Oman ( 308666 )
    The article fails to mention what P.O.S. software the snowboard shops are running. If any one know a good one let me know. We could use this at a non-profit bookstore I volunteer for.

    Preferably it would use a database on a server so we could use the same db with multiple registers and maybe even the a shopping cart on our website.Also it would be cool if it worked with the cuecat for scanning barcodes.

    • Re:What are they running? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:48AM (#4606439) Homepage Journal
      Hehe, I got all defensive for a minute because I read it as "piece of shit software".

      graspee

    • Re:What are they running? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Soko ( 17987 )
      I've been actively researching this for quite some time now. I've come up with a few:

      L'AnePOS [sourceforge.net] - written in Perl, uses Tcl/TK for admin, PostgreSQL backend. Nice system, but the code needs cleanup. The project admin told me he should be updating it very soon.

      Compiere [sourceforge.net] - Whole ERP/CRM package including POS. Too big for small shops, just right for medium. Oracle backend, tho - expect to pay a bit for that.

      BananaPOS [bananapos.com] - Not sure, development seems erratic.

      There's JPos as well, though I'm not sure what backend it uses and Mercator, which is still in Alpha. I'm trying to get a project called Poszilla off the ground, too - Point of Sale based on Mozilla, which would truly be be platform independant, maybe even DB independant.

      GPLed Point of Sale is getting there, I guess.

      Soko

  • Wierd steganography in the Olympics article? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tulare ( 244053 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:44AM (#4606429) Journal
    I was having to highlight over the text to deal with a wierd OS X issue where text randomly disappears (IE, Moz, doesn't matter) when I noticed a bunch of letters in the spaces between some of the words. The text isn't justified in any way that I could see, just left-aligned, so these weren't some kind of spacing tool, so I can't figure this out. I did a view source, and here's a bit chopped out of the article:
    system<font color=white>U</font>and other information<font color=white>A</font>systems will be built for<font color=white>U</font>collecting, collating, disseminating<font color=white>E</font>and
    Does anyone have any idea what the heck this is all about? One pattern I do seem to be noticing is that the "hidden" letters are all vowels.

  • 2008 (Score:5, Funny)

    by hdparm ( 575302 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:49AM (#4606440) Homepage
    Too bad it's summer games. For the winter olyimpics mascot choice would be easy :)

  • Oh, okay.... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Lagrange5 ( 267948 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:56AM (#4606450)
    I almost thought it said...

    Australia, China Snowboard Shops Use Linux

    ...and I quickly thought,

    Wait, there are snowboard shops in China???

    Hey, you never know. Someday...

  • POS and Enterprise system on Unix/Linux (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DrainBead ( 619840 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @03:59AM (#4606458)
    http://www.proiv.com/0025664A00363AEA/pages/4GL/$F ile/4gl.pdf is an interesting PDF on how Nandos Chickenland is moving to Unix/Linux (with the help of 4GLSystems) in their Enterprise Management Systems. While Linux is becomming more and more mainstream (even my technophobic Dad asked me about "that new thingy giving Microsoft headaches"), IMHO the future of a similar market penetration for Linux as M$ has (at least in the desktop market) is still far off. And perhaps it would be better if it never arrived?!?
  • Linux(tm) based registers... The only registers that don't eat your money...

  • Important news for Bill and Steve (Score:4, Funny)

    by pubjames ( 468013 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @04:01AM (#4606465)

    I've got some information for Bill Gates and Steve Ballamer that could help them save money. If anyone from Microsoft is reading this, can you please pass the information on?

    You can get some really great deals on international flights by booking a "round the world" ticket. With these tickets you can stop off at a large number of different destinations on a trip around the world and pay a single low price. A friend of mine paid about $2000 to stop at 40 different destinations on five continents!

    I hope this helps.

  • Sportmart! (Score:3, Funny)

    by astrosmash ( 3561 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @04:30AM (#4606541) Journal
    Up here in Canada Sportmart [sportmart.ca] runs what I assumed to be Linux on its cash registers. It was definitely Gnome with the Sawfish window manager, default 1.2 theme.

    At the time I figured it was "native" (svga) gnome, since who would be crazy enough to run X on a cash register, but does svga gnome use a window manager? Yikes.
    "Okay, with tax the total comes to 75 dollars and... whoops! X crashed. Hold on a minute while I hack on XF86Config."
    "Hey, listen. The cash register is thrashing again. Skate or Die dude!"
    Well, as long as their GUI isn't rendered in OpenGL I guess they'd be okay.

    • X on a cash register (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The Donato Food Group in Toronto will take its 26th restaurant (Mrs. Vanelli's) live today in Downtown Toronto at Scotia Plaza on King Street West. It will be a 3 display X Windows POS system from ViewTouch, a company which has been in business doing graphic touchscreen POS since 1986, a time when there were no graphic capabilities in DOS computers. That might even mean that the company that first began doing graphic touchscreen POS is still at it and is using free software instead of Windows. By the way, one of the displays will be an interactive Kitchen Video display. Everybody else's kitchen video displays are not interactive except for the ability to use a bump bar to move from one guest check to another. The company has an IT department with one employee. He is also responsible for all the POS installations, from Montreal to British Columbia and, in a few months, from Arabia to New Zealand. He knows a little bit about enterprise POS and remote management, don't you think? I think that he would think that you would be better off laughing at something that was funny instead of laughing at something that you made up that has no truth to it. If you were to ask the IT department manager at Donato Food Group you would find that X never crashes, and neither does the FreeBSD (and sometimes Linux) operating system used in the POS system. By the way, there's no gnome or KDE environment, either. The window manager in the POS system is fully graphical, but it is also fully specific to the job at hand - POS. Since you're in Canada maybe you would find yourself eating at a Mrs. Vanelli or a Made In Japan restaurant in one of the malls. They will take your order on an X Windows POS system and the company's head office will have the transaction immediately rsync'ed to itself. And if they add a new menu item to the software from the head office, even as the cashier is taking your order, don't be surprised. That's the kind of thing that you can do with X when it's used properly, and it's the kind of thing that has been going on for many, many years.

      You badly need a reality check. Do you have enough initiative to give yourself one?
  • This sort of coverage is great news,

    I've been going around trying to convince my clients that Linux is a viable corporate alternative ( see here [demon.co.uk]) and every story avocating its use for political (free speech), environmental (recycling and making those old 386s usable again), societal (adding value to people in third-world countries) and technological (A Globally Wide pool of people with diverse ideas rather than those in Redmond) as well as valid business reasons (increases profitability, adds value, reduces costs, etc) make the Linux argument even stronger.

    We need more of the "I switched to Linux because it was good for my business model" rather than "I switched cos Microsoft was mean and horrible to me so I took my ball and went to another park" because mean and 'orrible Microsoft will just replace the usual suspects with new friendly (and more insidious) faces and rebrand themselves as the NEW microsoft and pull those customers back in again (Hey look they said they were sorry and I can go back to the park again).

    Action
  • Broader Linux adoption is a good thing and all, but I really don't see how this one merits to a Slashdot story. Goverment shops switching to Linux in small steps, China's friendly stance and store chain usages are all old news.

    Recent story with the frontpage article in Washington Post about Spanish goverment offices that started mass conversion of 100 000 PCs to Linux was news. This one isn't.
  • Ive seen so many of these "X place" is using / switches to "X technology", and it doesnt mean jack. If you want to argue FOR a technology, argue for it, don't use someone picking it as an argument. My local DOT uses OS/2, so do ATMs. What's that mean? OS/2 is perfect? CompUSA's cash register system is a Java program. So Java 0wnZ J00? Someone switches to something all the time, big deal? And most importantly, idiots abound, so just because some place big or small chooses something, doesn't mean it was a good idea, no matter if it's Bob's Taco's, or the DoD.

  • Zumiez runs Evolution over Outlook as well... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SystemOfTheAnimal ( 563597 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:28AM (#4606755) Homepage
    My friend Kevin's dad owns Zumiez (which is the chain the article mentioned) and some of my friends are responsible for installing the Linux boxes they mentioned. In addition to the Linux cash registers, they also installed Evolution for the store managers to use. This was a conscious choice over Outlook.
    So put your money where your mouth is and support Zumiez- they're a great company.

    • Re:Zumiez runs Evolution over Outlook as well... (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Here's a quote from Kevin's dad's IT guy, Rory Hudson.

      "While Linux is good enough for our retail stores, I have no plans to replace the desktops at corporate headquarters with Linux. I've evaluated Linux for the desktop there, but isn't a good reason for me to switch off Windows right now." "When we make a decision to switch software vendors, we have to look at the needs of the user, and right now, Linux desktops aren't viable for us," "We are quite satisfied with the Microsoft software we have right now, so there's really no reason for us to make the switch."

      Your friend Kevin's dad is being ill-served by guys like Rory Hudson. Instead of implementing a cohesive and comprehensive enterprise POS solution which includes x terminals and a proven, front to back, POS solution, he's just putting bandaids all over the place. Go to Google and type in something like 'Linux POS'. You and Kevin and Kevin's dad can find all he needs to save reinventing the wheel in Linux POS and Kevin's dad can really begin saving money and tightening up his operation.

  • The realities of switching to linux (Score:5, Insightful)

    by codepunk ( 167897 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @09:20AM (#4606959)
    I just gave a linux presentation to a partner vendor company of ours yesterday. The one thing you have to remember is that neither one our companies produces commercial software. Both of our business's are in the manufacturing areana. We showed them our manufacturing terminals running kde and our custom applications and needless to say they where shocked at the simplicity and capabilities. The only thing they cared about was the incredible way it brings computing everywhere at a very low cost. Being a manufacturing company it allows us to expand our computing environment at little cost. During a rough economy this allows us to take deep product cost cuts to take business from our competitors. The use of linux is a competitive advantage, plain and simple.
  • While the front computers used for the point of sale are windows98, (the keyboards and scanners are not suppored by linux), the backroom is all linux. No wonder it is actually stable. IN addition, an old IBM P100 runs most stores, and the lag isn't terrible. Chaulk one up for linux's speed and reliablity. After all, this system has been in place for over 3 years, and had almost zero problems. If only radioshack sold redhat...
    • (the keyboards and scanners are not suppored by linux),

      only because the IT director was a complete moron..

      I can get you a CC card reading keyboard and Barcode scanner that will work with ANY operating system on this planet that runs on intel hardware or can use a IBM PC/AT keyboard.

      buying anything else is either an incredibly stupid move or is based on poorly written software.
  • You know Maury. That guy from high school. He is using Linux, I think. Well, that's what I heard. Maybe Scottie also. Maybe they should have their own frontpage story too.

    People switching to Linux... not big news. Linus becoming Bill Gates' pool boy is news.

  • ...Having the Chinese insist on an all-Linux setup is an extreme no-brainer.

    After all, you know IBM is going to be supplying the IT hardware for Olympic operations, and given that IBM is probably the largest supporter of Linux in the world....
  • What a useless article. Just another "more people are using Linux" article. What I was hoping to find out is what POS software they're using, and where I can get it. Also, I need to know if I can seamlessly move my POS and accounting data to OSS equivalents.
  • The is a much better Linux in retail article over at Datamation [earthweb.com] about the status/ succes of the Burlington Northern useage of Linux

    If you remember back in September 1999 they announced the biggest purchase yet of linux stations for Retail. This event is on the LinuxTimeline [lwn.net]

    This and the telia win in Sweden was one of the first major linux wins. Anyone knows how the latter is doing? From the Datamation article article.

    "We (Burlington)have been very aggressive about moving toward Linux, mostly on small servers or combination server/desktops," says Prince. "The stores all use Linux."

  • Hudson found that, with the exception of point-of-sale software, he could simply download everything he needed, free of charge.

    Why? Isn't there a mature Open Source POS software? I've been thinking about that for some time. Linux is a very viable platform for a POS system, because many of them are old PC's. Is there a problem with the multiple devices that usually compose a POS? (Ticket printer, Barcode scanner, cash register, etc.). I think most of them follow a standard specification.

    I'd like to see a distribution geared towards POS systems. Like a cd that installs a server and clients for a small shop or restaurant.
    • There are a few alternatives (having just opened a retail business, I've looked). We couldn't find a commercial Linux solution for our business that could handle what we needed our POS system to do, but for that matter the solutions that did exist on the Windows side were very expensive per site, and for us not cost-effective. So like many companies, we had to get a custom-made POS system up & running. Unfortunately, the programmers I knew were only comfortable with Windows systems - and therefore that's what we went with. I'm sure this situation has happened for many businesses: despite us being aware of the cost benefits of non-Windows systems (and quite frankly, most busness decision makers are not) and actively looking for an OSS solution, we had to roll our own on Windows.

      Some of the best *nix POS solutions out there:

      Viewtouch [viewtouch.com], the original makers or touchscreens, with FreeBSD/Linux systems

      IBM [ibm.com], with some Linux-based solutions (mostly for medium to larger businesses), but recently successful [eweek.com]

      Quasar POS [linuxcanada.com] from Linux Canada - a great, professional & full-featured POS solution with integrated accounting (based on the OS Firebird db). Growing fast.

      MacPOS [lloyd1.com] with so many solutions on the Mac platform to choose from (and many being migrated to MacOS X) it's almost as bewidering as looking for a Windows solution.

      We would have gone with a MacOSX or Linux solution if we had only found a programmer that was comfortable working with them. Long-term, either would have been cost-effective.
  • Australia kinda jumps right out at you, being kinda big and all alone in the ocean and stuff. . .and China, well, that was a bit harder, but not much, the atlas people seem to have made a special point of highlighting it, they seem to think it's kinda important or something, but for the life of me. . . where the hell is Snowboard?

    KFG
  • The chart at the end of the Business 2.0 article is a bit misleading. The browser and email options weren't checked for openoffice and staroffice, and since they were associated exclusively with Linux in the article, it would appear to someone who doesn't know better that you wouldn't be able to "surf" or email in Linux.

    I use Konqueror/Mozilla and Kmail personally, but nothing was mentioned about these or the other excellent Gnome equivalents.

    I actually emailed the author a polite note on this subject.
  • The link to the article on business2 is broken. There is a space in the string passed into the php (just before a comma). http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,44531 ,FF.html should be
    http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,445 31,FF.html
  • The article, or the reference to it, is misleading. They are not implementing an open source cash register.
  • amazing that I might be about to praise china, apologies to Wei Jingsheng and those of his ilk, having all linux for the olympics will bring a lot of eyeballs to the linux/OSS concept. How many times during salt lake did NBC do some puff piece on the technology behind the actual putting-on of the games?

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