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Linux and Public Access Computing? 344

Posted by Cliff from the polyglot-kiosk-mode-computers dept.
An Anonymous Coward asks: "The Seattle Community Technology Alliance is a non profit, federally funded, public/private project that supports community technology centers in the Seattle area. We are interested in moving our public workstations from Win 2000 to Linux. In order to do this, we need good multi-lingual options and the abiltiy to create 'guest accounts' that prevent users from changing settings (to provide a consistent environment for users). What are the best tools for multi-user Linux labs? Should we use KDE? Gnome? How do we keep users from changing settings? We are eager to start experimenting, but would appreciate expert advice on starting points!"
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Linux and Public Access Computing? More

Linux and Public Access Computing?

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  • Funding ... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by rizzo ( 21697 )
    How does one go about getting federally funded for something like this. I _dream_ of doing something like this for my sleepy town.

    Don't make me give money to Matthew "The Riddler" Lesko.

  • BSD (Score:2)

    by bsDaemon ( 87307 )
    Use FreeBSD. Run the guest sessions in a jail. And don't give them ownership of their own home dir, either. that'll fix them right good. and use windowmaker.

  • You're gonna get a flood of answers (Score:3, Informative)

    by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:36PM (#4113869)
    But these are EASY questions.

    Choose any of the larger distributions you wish. Red Hat, Suse, whatever.

    Use KDE. Windows users freeze the second they see Gnome.

    Guest accounts and multiuser environments are what Linux is all about.

    As far as locking down the desktop, Linux and KDE are infinitely configurable so this won't be a problem. Alternatively, if you are just using guest accounts, let them change what they want then have the logout script clean out their home directory. That way every time a new guest logs in, It's a brand new desktop.

    • Re:You're gonna get a flood of answers (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ywwg ( 20925 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:46PM (#4113964) Homepage
      "Windows users freeze the second they see Gnome"

      Good thing there's no partisanship here! KDE and GNOME are both fine interfaces. kde has always been slightly ahead of GNOME, and has a more consistant user interface. I use GNOME because I always have, and the range of apps seems larger. It's really a judgement call.

      Gnome at least has language selection in its logon screen, kde might have something similar.
    • If you are going to allow them to have access to CD-ROM or diskette, you could either set the sys up to look for these for default pref files in those spots first before resorting to the default setup.

      That way frequent vistors with their own personal stuff and preferences that are burnt on a CD or on a diskette (if they can fit it all on that) can use these mediums when they visit.

      Or

      It'd be cooler if when they choose their desktop background, they automatically can save their config file that points to it on a diskette along with other prefs for instance.

      If any of that is possible.
      • This seems like a good application for a room full of SunRay terminals and an E250/E450 or one of the newer 480s if you have money coming out the wazoo. They come with a really cool card that stores access to all their personal preferences so when they log on, their terminal is already configured for their use. Last time someone did a study it was nearly the same upfront costs as the same number of windows running desktops and a workgroup server.
        If you get the server cheap on ebay, a free license of Solaris 8, and buy the SunRays from either sun or someone else, I would guess it might be close in cost to PCs and Linux. It also makes your life easier, since there is less administration on the single server.
    • Use KDE. Windows users freeze the second they see Gnome.

      I think you mean that Gnome freezes when it sees Windows users.

      As far as locking down the desktop, Linux and KDE are infinitely configurable so this won't be a problem.

      Hmmm... I would say that Linux and KDE are infinitely configurable, so this IS a problem, as far as locking down a desktop. Setting it up to clean out their home directory would be an option, as long as it would only clean out appropriate files, but I would say that somehow preventing a user from changing the desktop would be a better option. I haven't used KDE or Gnome a lot (I prefer FVWM, now THAT's infinitely configurable), but I'm assuming that all the control-panel-like things they have are just frontends to some .kderc file or something, right? Can't you just lock down that file?
      • KDE has, or at least is gaining a Kiosk-mode, which allows you to lock down the ability, for example, to change the wallpaper background, or the icons on the panel, control panel and other "dangerous" areas when putting a computer in a public place.

        I haven't checked on it's progress but that is probably the kind of area that you are looking for.

    • Re:You're gonna get a flood of answers (Score:4, Interesting)

      by dasunt ( 249686 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:00PM (#4114083)

      About the logout script. Just make sure you can read the SKEL files. Then make that logout script owned by someone other then the guest user, and make it read only by others.

      I've always thought, if I was going to setup computers in a public area (such as a library), I'd easily go Linux over Windows. With windows, you either have to grab the most PITA programs to lock down a desktop (and break half the other things running), or you find the worst junk installed on it. Speaking of which, find an open source AIM/ICQ/MSN/whatever client. Under linux, you should be able to throw together a pretty TK/perl script to setup accounts. I've noticed many users love their IM. And, since the accounts are supposed to be wiped at each logout, everything is good.

      Just my $.02

  • check the howto (Score:5, Informative)

    by SkipFrizzell ( 596868 ) <skipfrizzell2000 ... m ['o.c' in gap]> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:37PM (#4113886) Homepage

    http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Kiosk-HOWTO. html

    I would start here.

    -=Skip

    • is that it seems (from the HOWTO) that if you reboot the machine, you get to a lilo prompt and you can easily do something like "linux 1 initrd=/bin/bash" and boot directly into a prompt where you could change the root password without any trouble at all..

      what other boot loaders are out there than have the functionality to "lock it down" to where the boot options can't be changed?
      • Can't you password protect lilo and/or have it not display a prompt?
      • GRUB has a boot-loader level password, and seems to be taking over as the gold standard Linux boot-loader anyway. AFAIR LILO has that functionality too.

        But then windows boxes in a lab are even easier to own with a floppy disk . . .

        I think the bottom line in a lab that is "public" to any degree is image early, image often.

        Snort could help here too by identifying funny network traffic coming from any of the boxes in the lab.

        -Peter

    • Re:check the howto (Score:2, Informative)

      by LedZeplin ( 41206 )
      I've setup the Linux Kiosk Project. [mozdev.org]


      Granted it's limited to web browsing, but it's a start


      It uses a modified TWM as the window manager and XUL modified Mozilla as the browser.

    • cool start, but limited (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Erris ( 531066 )
      Why not use the power of GNU/Linux to give users real accounts? You know, so they can save their work and eventualy retrieve it? Keep user accounts hidden from other users and make a little script that can be run by guest guest to create a real non privalidged account. Have the log outs kill all user applications and have an inactivity kill. Further steps might be needed to keep people from doing nasty things but they are SO much easier with a system that was set up multiuser from the very begining with compilers and everything else available.

      The sooner people realize how easy this stuff is, the sooner they will use it and discover how easy it is.

  • Can I ask why? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by GoatPigSheep ( 525460 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:37PM (#4113888) Homepage Journal
    Why would you switch from windows2000. Windows2000 is a pretty recent OS and obviously you already have your licencing costs paid for. What would be the point in changing over a system that is already relatively up to date. If you were using win 3.1 or even win95 I could understand but I don't see why you would switch from a recent and generally (despite what linux zealots say) solid OS.

    Personally I could say that switching a bunch of computers that are already up to date as a SERIOUS waste of taxpayers money. Switch those systems in 4 or 5 years when you really need to. Then you can think about using linux.

    • Re:Can I ask why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by TheConfusedOne ( 442158 ) <the,confused,one&gmail,com> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:48PM (#4113993) Journal
      I think the first issue is the cost of keeping those machines up to date.

      The second is what the machines are supposed to be doing. If it's just surfing the web, emails, and basic word processing then you should be able to do this much cheaper than paying the annual MS tax.

      A terminal server like setup would allow you to use cheaper boxes at the front. (Maybe you could put out 10 more boxes with the savings in hardware and software.)

      Finally, it'll discourage the script kiddies. When Joe Jr. goes to logon and use his floppy disk with the latest priviledge elevating holes in Windows they'll be stuck at step one.

      The best approach would be to figure out how to set up the new boxes and use them whenever you replace/rebuild a system. (You could probably create a pretty nice computer center with a server grade box and 10-20 PII class machines acting as terminals.)

      • Re:Can I ask why? (Score:2, Informative)

        by Osty ( 16825 )

        I think the first issue is the cost of keeping those machines up to date.

        Did you not read what the original poster said? It wasn't "Why switch?", but "Why switch now?" If the library is already running Win2K, then they have

        • Paid-for licenses, and
        • Beefy enough hardware for it.

        Given that, switching now is a waste of money (even if the switch costs $0, they've still wasted money on Win2K licenses). It serves no purpose but to promote a zealot agenda, and as a Seattle taxpayer, I would prefer my money be spent on better things.

        The second is what the machines are supposed to be doing. If it's just surfing the web, emails, and basic word processing then you should be able to do this much cheaper than paying the annual MS tax.

        I don't know where you work, but unless you're paying for a yearly service contract, you're not paying yearly for your license (some LORGs may have special licensing deals with MSFT that require yearly payments, but most businesses aren't LORGs), and especially not with Win2K (whether or not this will change in the future will have no effect on already-purchased licenses, of course). So, unless you're doing funky accounting (amortizing the cost of Windows 2000 licenses across the expected lifetime of the OS, for example), you don't have a yearly "MS tax" to pay. The licenses are already purchased, nothing more needs to be paid.


        A terminal server like setup would allow you to use cheaper boxes at the front. (Maybe you could put out 10 more boxes with the savings in hardware and software.)

        Well, the hardware's already purchased it seems. However, if they wanted to go with thin clients, you can do that just as well with Windows, so since they already have the licenses ...


        Finally, it'll discourage the script kiddies. When Joe Jr. goes to logon and use his floppy disk with the latest priviledge elevating holes in Windows they'll be stuck at step one.

        Why even bother providing a floppy drive? Okay, so you change that to "When Joe Jr. goes to logon and use his CD-R with the latest priviledge elevating holes ..." Still, it doesn't matter. It's apparent that you're not a Windows sysadmin (not a dig, just the truth -- unix admins don't always make good nt admins, especially when they have preconceptions about how "terrible" windows is), or you would realize that the reason most people get into trouble with nt4/win2k/winxp is because they run as administrator 24/7. You wouldn't do that with root in unix, so why do it in Windows? Anyway, you can very effectively lock down Win2k, and as long as you stay on top of security patches, you'll be just as secure as linux (where the same applies -- lock down your users and stay on top of security patches).


    • If you were using win 3.1 or even win95 I could understand but I don't see why you would switch from a recent and generally (despite what linux zealots say) solid OS.
      Because Microsoft has already EOL'd (End of Life) Windows 2000. And under Licensing 6.0, there is no longer an upgrade path for Open License (less than 250 workstations) sites. So to maintain support and patches (including those somewhat important security patches) you will be forced to upgrade to XP fairly soon (I would guess 12 months after XP Server {whatever it is being called this week} is finally released). Under the new licensing terms that will put a real squeeze on the wallet.

      sPh

  • Run from CD-ROM? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by JoeShmoe ( 90109 ) <askjoeshmoe@hotmail.com> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:38PM (#4113893)
    How about that Knoppix distro or similar that run completely from CD (or loads from it anyway).

    After user is done, reboot and next one gets a fresh clean install. Plus, no data kept, so nothing for "The Man" to subpoena, no privacy to invade/violate.

    - JoeShmoe

    .

  • Why not let them change anything they want (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pete-classic ( 75983 ) <hutnick@gmail.com> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:39PM (#4113901) Homepage Journal
    except for .bashrc and a script that puts everything back in order on login? (Hint: put the "guest" ~ on a ramdisk so this doesn't cause slow login.)

    Might be nice to have a policy "You can't 'check out' until you log out." so no one gets stuck with someone elses freakish preferences.

    Or you could just give away (restricted) accounts with ~ on NFS, a small quota, and automate removal after 30 days of inactivity or something.

    -Peter

  • First of all. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TibbonZero ( 571809 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [nobbiT]> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:41PM (#4113925) Homepage Journal
    Well, it seems that first of all you should really research Linux in general. I know that you are eager to get off of Win2K, but you should really make sure that everyone is well trained. Users too need to be trained, so that they aren't confused. You should read up on the permissions structure (and alternatives like Novell's E-Directory), and fully understand Linux before you go slapping it on everyone's boxes.
    The reason I bring up this, is because from your question, it seems that you are new to Linux- in the fact that you don't know how to deny permissions, the differences between KDE and GNOME, guest accounts, etc.
    So go get Linux, format your box, test it out!. Experienment, and try different Distros. I would sugest one without too much bloating, but that's my personaly opinion. You don't want people in the public to get a bad opinion of Linux because of messed up public Linux boxes.

    • Re:First of all. (Score:3, Informative)

      by justsomebody ( 525308 )
      Well, in my opinion he's risen out the right question.

      There should be some HOWTO for that kind of thing, at least if you wanna see some more desktops joining in. I remember when everybody was eager to help schools to move to linux. /. month or so ago.

      HOWTO
      -----
      Process should be divided to some various points.

      1. Securing machine.
      Securing bios, lockaway of power and reset button
      2. Securing boot loader to disable user commands to kernel. You can even compile kernel to make some improvments to that point
      3. Securing interactive service boot mode, make a change in rc scripts just to comment the lines waiting for input key to start interactive mode.
      4. Securing X by disabling accessing terminals with Ctrl + Alt + F?
      5. Disabling reboot without password and disabling reboot with Ctrl + Alt + Del (otherwise in some various points Ctrl + Alt + BckSpc and Ctrl + Alt + Del might enable user to reboot)
      6. Disabling any kind of autologin

      7. Next thing is securing desktop manager

      It could be done in some various ways but best in my opinion is forst one.
      Personally I don't think that idea with guest accounts would be good. Much better choice is LDAP users and LDAP login. With this you can have as many centralised users as you want. But every new user gets new preferences and every user is able to choose desktop (Still you can install only one and disable that choice if you want equal desktops). Just protect icons on desktop for softwares you want (chmod 555).
      Extend that option with NFS share for storing their home folders. You just got your self moving profiles accessible from any computer in network.

      Second idea is far easyer to achieve. after session, delete home folder, recreate new one from templated one with rsync and here is the point where user modifications to desktop are reset

      • Great idea. I think it would really help people get to use Linux out in public.
        The only thing is that we have to make the Howto a little redundant over others, because we shouldn't assume that they know what they are doing.. .

      • Great ideas. The first topic in the HOWTO should be keeping the software up to date, though. For a public Kiosk, I'd suggest Debian with "apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade -y" as a daily cron job.

        IMHO, the best way to prevent problems is run all of the machines diskless and network boot them. A friend of mine found a motherboard that supports dual CPUs and 4 IDE channels with hrdware raid. This means you can pull all of the hard drives out of the machines and put 8 hard drives on the one motherboard for some serious file storage. YOu probably want one standby fileserver. Why keep N coppies of the OS arround when you can keep one copy and send it to the N machines over the network? I'd prefer Kerberized OpenAFS over NFS for home directories (encryption is your friend). In any case, it's a good idea to allow home accounts. If you make all of the machines diskless, you're going to have a fair ammount of storage for the fileserver from collecting the hard drives.

        With a headless setup, if you disconnect the floppy drives' and CD drives' cables from the motherboards, you're reasonably assured that they can't boot the machine into a Trojaned OS. You probably want a couple of machines with functional floppy and CD drives, but put them close to the supervisor's desk.

        Diskless clients are so much easier to maintain. All you need is a reboot to sync a computer's software with the rest of the machines. The hard drive is one less thing to fail. If you're running RAID 5 on the fileserver, one of your hard disks can fail without any loss of data.

        Please please please educate users on using strong passwords.

  • check out the DNA lounge source code (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:42PM (#4113934)
    Check out http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/src/kiosk/ for information about how they set up their Kiosks. It might give you some ideas for starting points, the have similar goals and an extremely "hostile" environment.

  • This is Editor Trolling Day, isn't it? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:43PM (#4113939) Journal
    Should we use KDE? Gnome?

    What, the vim book review, "fastest browser" and "developers prefer Debian, vi and GNOME and are mostly married or living with someone" study weren't enough?

    By way of an answer, I'd give an edge to KDE only because of wider Unicode support. You say you want multi-language support, and in Seattle, you'd be especially concerned about Asian languages, particularly Chinese, right? Until GNOME apps are widely ported to GNOME 2 (and then have gone through an upgrade cycle or two), KDE is probably a better choice.

    Like someone else said, the best thing to do is probably to have the logout script clean out and replace the guest account each time it runs.

  • This is a nice idea for a community but I suggest having user accounts in addition to one main guest account. If someone is going to come and use the machine enough, give them a restricted account so that they can personalize their desktop. KDE and Gnome both have good user management tools, so don't restrict yourself or your users if you don't need to.

  • Wish I had your e-mail address (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Allnighterking ( 74212 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:44PM (#4113952) Homepage
    If I did I'd tell you to contact another Gov funded project called SLAC (Stanford Linear Accelerator Center) They have without a doubt the best linux setup for lab work you will ever see. The tools etc of course are available to you, free of charge, and the people who work there are more than just helpful. the URL is http://www.slac.stanford.edu/ to start checking them out. They run 2000 server clusters and are fast approaching 1 petabyte of data. So they do know there stuff. AND it's a Linux house to boot. Sometimes Gov funded orgs do it right and these are some people who prove this is true.
    • After looking over their site it looks like they are in the same boat as many other large institutions, most especially large universities. That is, they have and support just about everything. There did not appear to be a preference for any particular platform.

      I did find the policy banning XP until further notice rather interesting/ammusing, but this was only until they had a chance to evaluate it and any effect it may or may not have on their network. It rather reminds me of Netware administrators banning Windows 95 when it was first released.

      • Support is actually done in divisions the largest being the Unix Division. They do support Linux as well as Solaris. HPux and AIX are pretty well gone and they also have picture celebrating the demise of the last vacs. *grin*

  • Depends on the needs of your users (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BigJimSlade ( 139096 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:45PM (#4113958) Homepage
    What are they doing on these general purpose machines? Are they essentially a kiosk to get online with? If so, maybe you should consider OEOne. [oeone.com] This was previously mentioned on Slashdot [slashdot.org] a few days ago. It sits on top of Red Hat and looks like it gives the users the basic internet capabilities they need. I'm not sure how well it will lock down, however. I just thought I'd mention it since I'm thinking about setting up a box running this for my parents.

  • Check out jwz's solution. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by immanis ( 557955 ) <`immanis' `at' `sfgoth.com'> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:47PM (#4113978) Homepage Journal

    Jamie Zawinski [jwz.org] of mozilla and xscreensaver fame owns a nightclub in San Francisco called DNA Lounge [dnalounge.com].

    He installed IRC, telnet, ssh and web enabled diskless linux kiosks [dnalounge.com] for just this purpose. His code is available, as well as instructions on how he did it. It may give you a good place to start.


  • The desktops should be put together in a kiosk fashion. Whatever desktop you end up using should be absolutely simple.

    The best thing would be for a featureless desktop with the few handful of applications that are allowed to be used as clickable icons on the desktop. A taskbar is not needed, in fact it shouldn't even be welcome.

    Having a taskbar, with a number of applications available through a Windows-Start-Menu-Like system can provide far more functionality then is needed. Sure, you can edit the taskbar "Start-Menu" to include only a few applications, but then what is the point to having a "Start-Menu"?

    All that is needed is a basic web browser that supports currently used web elements. Not just standards, but things that are used across most web-sites. That means Flash Support, Java Support and a host of other web technologies.

    The important thing is to have that all setup properly with all the correct plug-ins in place. If those are missing, then you will see the users gravitating away from those systems.

    Probably the best thing to do, would be to setup a specially tweaked Windows machine and one of these specially tweaked Linux Machines. Both can have the same basic applications available that the public-access users will be wanting to use...

    Here is one thing that might hold you up...

    IRC, Yahoo! Messenger, Aol Instant Messenger and MSN Messenger. These are all used on public access machines. To confirm this, check out the public access machines at Kinko's, also check out public access machines at college campuses. All of those are installed onto those machines.

    Setup a Windows machine with only IE and those messenging services Icons on the destktop. This can be done using Group Policies.

    Setup a Linux desktop with just a Mozilla or other web browser link on the desktop. Then one of those "Easy to use" multi-client chat programs as a link on the desktop.

    Run both of those machines side by side. Track how many people use both machines. You might be surprised to find that more people will end up using the Windows machine, simply because of those messenger clients.

    You can even remove the messenger clients and you might find that more people will still end up using the Windows machine, due to the better font handling and other things that they are used to.

    Do this experiment before you take a leap and radically alter your configurations.

    -.-

  • Gconf (Score:3, Informative)

    by gouldtj ( 21635 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:51PM (#4114011) Homepage Journal
    If you use GNOME... you can lock down most of the settings (in GNOME 2 atleast) by just changing your GConf settings. Basically it allows you to make all of the settings read only. The file that you'd be interested in modifying is: /etc/gconf/2/path You should be able to lock down most settings nice and tight.

  • KDE Kiosk Howto (Score:2, Informative)

    by UnixFerEver ( 221392 )


    http://www.brigadoon.de/peter/kde/t1.html

    This may be a little out of date by now, but I think they have a mailing list as well.

  • Firewall all traffic OUT (For starters.) (Score:3, Insightful)

    by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @02:52PM (#4114024)
    A few security suggestions:

    If you are creating public access Linux boxes, do the rest of the internet a favor and strictly restrict all internet access out as well as in. This protects everyone else in case a local user roots a box.

    Don't put floppy drives in the systems, and disable the CD drives. This will help prevent a user from walking in with a disc of exploits and root kits, forcing anyone who wants to use local hacks to go download the hacks, which you can track in firewall logs.

    Aesthetic suggestions:

    Consider renaming all the KDE/Gnome apps withing the config files. Many Linux apps have lame, undecipherable names (Stick a G in front of the name of a python actor type crap.), and if you make the purpose of an app obvious, a newbie will learn the real name of the app over time.

    Do your users a huge favor and avoid Gnome. KDE is a much easier transition for Mac/Windows users.
    • Since I'm all outta moderation points, I'll have to reply. I do like this suggestion. Finding yourself an experienced Linux administrator or three who are willing to sit and monitor the network would be another option. That way, when someone tries something fishy, he/she can root his way in and stop it. That admin might also find working in a volunteer capacity for a non-profit outfit looks rather good on a resumè, scoring them brownie points with prospective employers.

      I also agree with the use of KDE in this situation. Using GNOME, Blackbox or another "geek friendly" DE is asking a little too much of the casual user, who is most likely not familiar with a *NIX environment.

      Also, doing this in the Seattle area is pretty bold, seeing as how it's more or less Microsoft's home turf. I have no doubt that they'll try and shower you with funding, presentations on the benefits(?) of Windows, and other junk aimed at preventing your switch to Linux. You're going to have to tell them where to get off the bus, which can be rather tricky when the beast is tempting you with spoils. I wish you all the best of luck ^-^
      • can be rather tricky when the beast is tempting you with spoils.


        Hell, take the spoils (make sure there are no strings attached), then implement the Linux solution anyway. Have a raffle at a dollar a ticket with the prizes being the Microsoft junk.
  • As evidenced here [cityofseattle.net] , MS has already placed a significant stake with the SCTA. With this understanding, and their advocacy of .NET, is this another Junis Post? I mean, I would definately anticipate the editors have researched this submission. Click through their site (SCTA) and consider the question from this point of view:What is the biggest threat to MS. Who do you ask, and who will most likely define the weaknesses.

    Please analyze the facts before you mod.
  • Implementing guest accounts is real easy, but requires just a little bit of custom programming. The trick is to have a separate guest account for each terminal in the lab, and a custom login script that logs in to the guest account that's assigned to the login tty port.

    After logging out, the script wipes out the account's home directory, and restores the default home directory contents from a skeleton model, somewhere. After logging in they can mess things up as much as they want. After logging out the account gets wiped out, and restored to a default state.

  • Let the flamefest begin... ;) (Score:3, Funny)

    by powerlinekid ( 442532 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:00PM (#4114080)
    Here I'll sum up what you'll have to do, based on other posters:
    1)Install RedHat, Mandrake, Debian and slackware. Yeah all 4. And then put a difficulty ranking for each one on the computers, like from 1-4 (1 being easiest) assign them all a 1 because everyone is going to tell you that slackware is just as easy as mandrake.
    2)Install kde, gnome, windowmaker, blackbox, enlightenment, every other windowmanager that at least 1 person uses. Then install every single theme for them. We all know users want choice, so give them plenty of it. *already laughing*
    3)You'll need the Gnome office stuff (gnumeric, abiword,etc), Kdeoffice, openoffice and off course emacs (but if you install emacs, you'll also need vi).
    3)Put up posters in the room with penguins biting bill gates, or put "bill doesn't live here anymore" stickers on the machines. This will add to the feel of the room.
    4) Make sure there are no windows in the room.
    5) Don't forget to have one *BSD machine in the corner that nobody touches, just so the bsd people start complaining that "bsd is so much more 1337 then linux". Don't worry about keeping it up to date, noone will use it.

    That should be pretty much the answers you get out of the slashdot community. Personally I'd get Mandrake 8.2 with Kde 3 and Open Office. Entirely free and hell you could probably just boot them all off the same network image if the hardware is the same.

  • KDE Kiosk Mode (Score:3, Informative)

    by scriptkiddie ( 28961 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:02PM (#4114095)
    I'm a former student of Robert G. Valiant, whom I believe works/worked for CTA a while back. Say hi to him for me.

    As other posters have said, use KDE 3. You'll need to write some scripts to set up the accounts properly, since you really can't set up multiple accounts in KDE by copying the .kde directory (lots of programs need a directory to store data in, they get it from a .kde config file, but the config file says /home/username/data rather than ~/data, so copying .kde directories leads to weird hard-to-reproduce errors).

    KDE3 has a nifty kiosk mode, which I don't think anyone has mentioned. It allows you to restrict access to programs on the application menu only - people don't get a terminal, and they don't get any filesystem access through the file manager. It's great for Web browsing and e-mail, though it can lead to trouble when you want to, say, rename a file.

    Use KDE, NIS, and NFS so home dirs are shared across the system, of course. That's easy to set up. Using rdist for the KDE distribution itself is a good plan too.

    If you spend the time to set up Linux properly, it's a very competitive alternative to Win2K for public labs.
  • Have you looked into Knoppix [knopper.net]? You could run all of the machines off of a ramdisk, have them use floppies to save their configurations if they want. You could even remove the hard drives from the machines. I have found that less than 128MB may cause you some issues, but it will still work.

    Your only problem would be people swiping the discs, but you could also offer them for sale.

  • Here's a salve for the flaming... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pjt48108 ( 321212 ) <mr.paul.j.taylorNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:05PM (#4114113)
    I am considering, in the FAR future, moving things from Windows to Linux, here in the public library for which I work. One argument I get when I float certain elements of the plan is, "But everyone already knows Windows." (the library's computer classes teach to Windows, not to basic computer literacy.

    This made me think... What is more important for the end-user, from the standpoint of computer literacy? Knowing the operating system, or understanding basic functions that are universal across applications?

    As patrons shouldn't even be THINKING of accessing the OS, I lean towards emphasizing application functions, such as print, save, etc. Those are the functions the majority of users will be needing anyhow.

    That said, I think Linux should work fine, despite the naysayers, so long as the desktop/interface is simple and straightforward enough so that the user doesn't feel the need to plum the depths of the OS (in order to type up their recipe, email their grandson, etc.). In fact, the flexibility of Linux, I believe, enables you to BETTER serve your constituency in this manner.

    Plus, Microsoft is pure evil.
    • "But everyone already knows Windows."

      There's a simple way to deal with that, especially if you aren't ready to make the switch yet. Just create a machine with all the latest and greatest bells and whistles for KDE, super-simplify it and then set it up at your library and let the librarians have a go at it. I think that will turn them around rather quickly, unless they do use the hidden obscure features of windoze.

    • In my home town of Brisbane, Australia. The city council uses a web interface to their catalog. Its easy and apart from the browser being IE with some apparent functionality locked out, including closing / minimising the browser, its fine. In fact you can access the catalog remotely [qld.gov.au] by browser. The other PCs in each library just run IE to interface to the web. Soooo ... if you had something like Konqueror or *insert name of favourite browser* then why run Winders at all ?

      So my suggestion is, yep a linux box but it only runs a browser and that is the only interface the user sees.

  • the Linux Terminal Server Project [ltsp.org] provides superb tools and software to set up a remote display server, you run all apps on the server and do the display on terminals. It works awesomely well, will ease and centralize your administration, and will work with old systems as terminals. If you have a competent admin, setting up guest accounts should be a breeze with this. You also need a competent admin because the server is a single point of failure and has to be kept well-fed and in working order.

  • There are a flood of resources out there... (Score:5, Informative)

    by ainsoph ( 2216 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:09PM (#4114131) Homepage
    The biggest one I can think of is the "linux Terminal Server Project",

    ltsp [ltsp.org]

    Which has been adapted to public schools in the form of:

    k12ltsp [k12ltsp.org]

    The linux in education folks have tons of info on doing stuff like this and are very wise about digital divide issues.

    Here are some links:

    open source schools [opensourceschools.org]

    School Forge [schoolforge.net]

    k12os [k12os.org]

    SEUL/Edu [seul.org]

    Some case studies:

    seul dat [seul.org]

    There is also Simple End User Linux (SEUL)

    SEUL [seul.org]

    RedHats "Open Source Now" initiative has listings of people in the area who can help out. They also have a bunch of "why's" and "hows" on their site.

    Open Source Now [redhat.com]

    I should be listed there in the Army of Friends, but have not gotten around to putting myself up. Feel free to contact me at cschwan4@attbi.com, as I am in the Seattle area.

    Doing this kind of thing is a great interest of mine, and I work in education to help make these transistions.

    Hope this helps.

  • My public access terminals (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ozonator ( 178851 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:14PM (#4114165)
    I've set up a few machines now, each running Debian (Testing, even), that are now in use as public terminals in a university library. They have a minimum of software installed, but Mozilla and Opera for browsing, Acrobat reader and AbiWord for documents, as well as lynx, telnet, ssh, and scp available in xterms (each launched via xterm's '-e' option, so that the xterm quits when the program running in them quits). For ssh and scp, I wrote a couple of simple scripts, using 'dialog' to get input for hostname, username, etc. I'm using IceWM (no Gnome or KDE), with extremely minimal menus and no logout command; it's very fast, and has a Windows-like theme so that it looks familiar to most people. KDM handles auto-login very nicely. Automount handles floppy disks (so users can copy files to and from remote machines without having local hard disk access). Finally, since the machines have identical hardware, I built a custom kernel package for them.

    For a 'guest' account, I set up a user in a unique group, and chown'ed all the files in that user's home directory to root, leaving them read-only for the guest. Problem: some programs expect to be able to write to disk, e.g., Mozilla expects to be able to make changes in $HOME/.mozilla -- so I wrote a simple script for each such program that, if the program isn't already running, will restore .mozilla (or whatever directory/file is appropriate) from a master, root-owned, read-only copy. Beyond that, to increase security on the machines, I turned off the various virtual terminals on the console, tightened up /etc/fstab (noexec in /tmp, for example), configured grub appropriately, set up ssh for remote admin (actually the only way I can get a command line on the machine), and set up some simple firewalling rules.

    So far, these machines have been completely stable, and our users have been pleased, even those using it mainly to check Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. It's reasonably easy to duplicate across various machines, too -- for only a few machines, this works fine: dpkg -[get|set]-selections to save and set which packages are installed, plus save settings from /etc, scripts from /usr/local/bin, and preferences from /home/pubacc, all of which are backed up and ready for a reinstall. But, if you've got lots of machines to duplicate, there are likely more efficient methods -- like running a terminal server; see, e.g., the Linux Terminal Server Project [ltsp.org] or the K12 Linux Project [k12ltsp.org].

    My recommendation: it's definitely worth a try setting up Linux machines as public access terminals, especially if the programs the users need are few in number (e.g, web browser, telnet, ssh, and pdf viewer, which is all just about everyone in our library wants on a regular basis). Just be prepared to do a little fiddling or simple script-writing to handle programs that expect read-write access to the guest account's home directory, and/or provide an interface for programs that normally are run from the command line.

  • Multi user kiosk (Score:3, Informative)

    by chabotc ( 22496 ) <chabotc&gmail,com> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:18PM (#4114193) Homepage
    You didn't quite specify in your question if the users of the system should be able to store files or not ... the design of such a system would kinda depend on this factor.

    But lets pretend they do not have write permission, or save their files on a common shared (nfs) directory. Then one would take a basic redhat system, set up the 'guest' users envirioment /desktop/menus (keep his dir as small as posible, remeber to disable mozilla's cache). then tar this up.. Change your init scripts to set up a ram disk (8 megs or so should do), and mount that on the users home dir. The modify your inittab to start your kiosk-session script, which in turn starts your kiosk-dm.sh script ..

    The kiosk-dm script would untar the guest's home dir to the correct spot, and start's X using your custom xinit script:
    while 1; do
    cd /
    rm -rf /home/guest/* /home/guest/.*
    tar xvfz /usr/share/guest.tar.gz /usr/X11R6/bin/xinit kiosk-session.sh
    done

    this kiosk-session.sh script would do something like:
    exec su --login --command /home/guest/.xinitrc guest

    This way, the user can 'log out' of xwindows, the home dir gets cleaned & restored, and a brand new x-session (restored from original config) is displayed.. Since eveything is on a ram drive, nothing that can break! (the guest user has no write perm on the rest of the file system, so can only fuck up his own home dir, which is cleaned every session)

    Now if you want a user to be able to log in, keep his files, etc.. that be a whole other situation.. nfs mounted home dirs, authorisation via kerebos, and all that..

    Now you also asked for multi-language support.. I would sugest getting your hands on the null beta (gonna be redhat 8.0), it has better UTF-8 support then i've seen before in any linux distro.. as a browser, use mozilla for decent internationalisation support.

    As a added bonus, start up redhat-config-language first in your guest's .xinitrc file.. this way they can select a language before any apps are started, and everything should work automagicly (as long as you installed all the locales).. it is included in the redhat 8.0 beta (null)
    • ps, slashdot bit my formatting again:
      tar xvfz /usr/share/guest.tar.gz /usr/X11R6/bin/xinit kiosk-session.sh

      should be:
      tar xvfz /usr/share/guest.tar.gz /usr/X11R6/bin/xinit kiosk-session.sh

      Sorry 'bout that

  • No Changes available. (Score:2, Informative)

    by ebooher ( 187230 )

    Well, I'm not exactly sure what your specific purpose here is, but I know that the Indianapolis / Marion County Public Library [imcpl.org] Has set up little Linux kiosks that talk to their main server for doing things such as performing book searchs by title, author, etc and then taking those searches and adding them to your request database.

    If this is all for non-profit type of work you might drop them a line and see if they can get you in touch with how helped them set it all up.

    I know that the terminals are relatively dumb, and may even be using some form of LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project) [ltsp.org] because when they reboot they drop directly back to a bare desktop with only icons for the software to do their catalog search. So in essence they are all guest accounts.

  • KDE kiosk mode (Score:3, Informative)

    by LMCBoy ( 185365 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:22PM (#4114221) Homepage Journal
    KDE has a kiosk mode. I'm not that familiar with it, but you can find the README file here:
    README.kiosk [kde.org]

    This is for KDE 3.0.

    good luck!
    • very nice! I was wondering about this myself. I'd like to have a kiosk mode for the guest account on my box so my friends couldn't mess around with it too much. Everytime certain friends log in they leave pr0n wallpapers and shit. A nasty surprise when you tell your dad to go ahead and just use the guest login.
  • http://gslug.org/
    http://www.seaslug.org/

  • MS sponsored ? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Jonny Ringo ( 444580 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:34PM (#4114306)
    Kind of interesting that they are going after Linux when one of their sponsers in Microsoft.

    http://cityofseattle.net/tech/scta/corporate.htm l

    It says "Microsoft will contribute more than $200,000 in software".
    • MS sponsers everything in this town. We are as they say, in the belly of the beast.

      Makes it a bitch to be a linux advocate.
    • It says "Microsoft will contribute more than $200,000 in software".

      I wonder if it was Windows 2000 they contributed....

    • Law should require that donations be valued at marginal cost AND NOT the price they charged some other guy or even the price they'd like to have charged.

      It's very easy why, but in the land of Economics (USA) nobody can see something as easy as that :(

      Companies are really abusing the economy and the citizens. But people will figure it at some point, if not already doing it (i have doubts though)

  • ThinkNic? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Matey-O ( 518004 ) <michaeljohnmiller@mSPAMsSPAMnSPAM.com> on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:35PM (#4114313) Homepage Journal
    Diskless customisable thin client with Netscape, VNC, Telnet, broadband, etc, and audio. $200 per unit plus some kind of monitor.

    They're cheap, run linux and hard to hack. (Also largely valueless from a theft standpoint.)

    Qustion is: Do they have enough horsepower for your needs?

  • VNC? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Satanboy ( 253169 )
    I remember a long time ago setting an environment up at home with VNC so I could surf to any web site at work through my web browser.

    anyways, it became a hit at work and I ended up with 50 people using my box.

    you just have to set the permissions correctly for the directories by using groups

    and you can configure kde and gnome to work the way you want

    it is a big step to read all the materials, but the manuals really help out.

  • "what should we use..." (Score:3, Funny)

    by MobyTurbo ( 537363 ) on Wednesday August 21, 2002 @03:57PM (#4114509)
    What are the best tools for multi-user Linux labs? Should we use KDE? Gnome? How do we keep users from changing settings?
    Use fvwm, the lab's users will *never* figure out how to change it's settings. ;-)

  • THAT'S gonna hurt. You asked which is better to use, KDE or Gnome. You are now certain to get a slew of messages from the Gnome fanatics and KDE fanatics telling how the other guy SUCKS. You didn't know, I'm sure. For future reference, try to inquire about both by using as neutral a tone as absolutely possible. The question itself, how it is specifically written matters and in this case it implies a winner and a LOSER! with a big "L" on its forehead.


    I'll fix you right up though, save you the need to read rants and raves. Use KDE, it's the best, most mature, and integrated solution...NO WAIT! Use Gnome, IT is the cleanest, purest, most politically correct, mature, and...ah f*ck it. Toss a frickin coin.

  • LTSP (Score:2, Informative)

    by sjwillis ( 72588 )
    after having setup a public library to use linux on the desktop (twice), i'd really encourage you to check out LTSP.
    My first go-round with the library, i did what you're looking at (a full blown distro on each machine). it worked very well. i created an install disk that created a nice, locked down desktop, etc. But then we started changing things like printer IPs and proxy server addresses and wanted uniform bookmarks, etc. And changing little things started to be time consuming.
    With LTSP you change things in one place, reboot the clients and they're all pointed at the new proxy or whatever. Besides, booting off the network and using ram disks made me feel a lot better when patrons kept just turning the machines off without shutdown now -r. no more fsck, ect.
    one more thing. using netscape i was able to edit the preferences.js file to disable all sorts of menus, settings on the web browser. i haven't tried doing the same with mozilla, but you'll probably want to make sure you use a browser with a lockable config file so kids can't change the homepage to playboy.com or whatnot.
    jim
  • You didn't say what the machines are going to do or what you server situation is. Linux with KDE and a browser-only version of Mozilla (no mail or news) would make for a very good web terminal, complete with Flash support. And if you have a couple of good file servers sitting behind it, you can network-boot them so that machines are interchangeable and don't necessarily need any software installed on them. Then you're just in the business of maintaining file servers, but they don't need to be big ones as they'd have to be if you were deploying, say, X terminals.

    But what else do people do at these terminals? Do they get to use Word and Excel? Any custom Windows-based reference tools that aren't available over the web? Educational titles?

    StarOffice/OpenOffice is okay, but it can be a little confusing for the kiosk user. It's one thing for a consumer or office worker to spend a couple of hours getting the hang of it if they're replacing MS Office with it. It's quite another to expect people to be productive in it on a casual, walk-in basis. You'll probably also want to customize it to replace the load/save buttons on the OpenOffice toolbars with buttons hooked to macros that load and save in MS Office formats by default. A kiosk user probably isn't going to want to save things in native StarOffice formats.

    By all means ignore others' advice to remove floppy drives if you want. If you're comfortable with letting people use floppies to load and save their work under Win2000, you can do it just fine with Linux.

    One nice potential savings with Linux is that you can present a customized, locked-down desktop environment like those that Windows system-management tools let you create--without any additional software or fees necessary. Take KDE and modify the guest "start" menus and desktop to include only the things you want to offer: the browser, maybe some desktop shortcuts to popular webmail services and instant-messaging tools, the word processor, a floppy formatter, and a logout button, for instance.

    I'm still not convinced there are good reasons to switch over; you certainly don't want to make the systems less useful to the people who use them. I'm assuming you're facing mandatory upgrades from Microsoft and will soon have to choose between paying $300 per machine in Software Assurance with more of the same in two years, or biting the bullet and getting rid of the commercial software.

    Depending on your needs, it certainly can work, and can work well. Linux (and Unix in general) is a great way to deploy rock solid centrally-managed, locked-down systems at a low cost. Just make sure you can give people the applications they need and present them in an easy-to-use, zero-training way.
  • Here's my minority report from off the deep end. It sounds like to me that you will have someone maintain the boxes, and that all the user will ever see is the desktop. Fine. Then try FreeBSD.

    FreeBSD is very easy to administer and has all the software Linux has. Stability and security is your prime concern in a public environment like this, and FreeBSD holds its own here. Only a few Linux distros can compare in this area (and the for-the-masses distros aren't them).
  • Much more secure than Linux and therefore better for a public environment. As for desktops: Maybe something simple like FVWM. KDE has too many bells and whistles and therefore will be tough to secure against abuse.

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