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Linux Software

Simputer Runs Into Problems 233

Posted by Hemos from the does-not-compute dept.
dejaffa writes "It seems that an Indian Linux-based "computer for the poor" is having financial issues. This has implications for the world digital divide. The story is here (MSNBC, I know, I know). There were originally great hopes for it, as seen here, but money is proving to be the stumbling block."
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Simputer Runs Into Problems More

Simputer Runs Into Problems

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  • Wat? You can't sell a computer for $200... i wondered why they were always more in the store. I figured t was the evils of multinational corporations.

  • well, what do you expect? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Transient0 ( 175617 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:41AM (#3885749) Homepage
    when you try to base a real world business plan on sim-dollars(simoleans). The sims may be a pretty impressive environment, but it's not reality yet.

    On the other hand, $200 would be a nice change for a cheap sim-puter. I always thought $999 was a bit steep for an entry-level model.
    • Simputer is a cool idea, but based on bad commerical decision. With a form factor like a PDA, they are effectively competing for the same type of high cost components, manufacturing facilities with all the major players in the market. Business is business, you should not expect others to do you a favour.

      Even the projected 50000 units in a year (for 2004) is not a big number. If I were the Simputer Foundation, I would try to cut a deal with cheap PDA manufacturers for a standard PDA and focus on just providing Linux specialised software initially.

  • Shame (Score:1)

    by damu ( 575189 )
    Unless Gateway or Dell or any of the big computer makers can brand their name on this device this will never fly. There is no room for future upgrades, there is no room for a returning sale on this device. This will be a one time purchase and thats it, you will never see customer again. Unfortunately the ones hurt are those who would benefit the most and do not have that money to afford it. Sad Sad World.

  • Why are computers necessary in India? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Realistically they could use paved roads for more benefit of the people. Although when you consider this country has nuclear missles and horrible infrastructure you have to wonder where their priorities are focused.

  • of course. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kipple ( 244681 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:43AM (#3885766) Journal
    there's plenty of food for the entire human being (as reported by the recent FAO meeting) but people are starving because feeding the poor doesn't pay back.

    there's plenty of money for the simputer but it has financial issues because, well, poor people won't put money into the economy of the internet.

    so sad.
    • So how much have you given to feed the poor today?
  • Does anyone else see the irony here? An idea conceived to help a nation with some of the poorest people in the world recover at least somewhat financially, and the people wanting to manufacture it cannot even afford to have it produced.

    Wonderful.

    -Peapod

  • Noble maybe, but realistic? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by taeric ( 204033 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:45AM (#3885783)
    While I can certainly understand the desire to get technology "to the people," I do have to wonder about the uses.

    It is nice to think that a farmer could use such a device to get prices on equipment and such from around the world, however, what good will it do them? They still will probably be forced to buy what is easily provided.

    Instead, this seems like a case where people are just hoping that a computer can magically fix so many problems. I don't understand it, how exactly is the computer supposed to be the answer that solves world poverty?

    Should we not instead look to get more usefull technology to these farmers and other poor nations? Technologies that can in fact help them lead healthier more productive lives? Hell, a simple education could probably work wonders for many of them.

    -josh

    • Enough with the stereotypes! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Archie Steel ( 539670 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:58AM (#3885865)
      Not everyone in India is a farmer - in fact it is one of the booming IT market among poorer nations. I went to India 14 years ago, and when a friend of mine who went there recently sent me photos, I was astounded to see the number of "Internet" and "e-mail" signs in the streets. Things have evolved so fast over there! You see, India is trying to go from an agrarian/industrial society to a digital one. In fact, a lot of Western companies outsource some of their coding to India. It seems Indians have a cultural knack for programming and mathematics.

      If they feel like they need computers, then they need computers. The first world trying to decide what the third world needs has rarely worked, like trying to sell heavy farming equipment to people used to work their fragile soil with animal-powered equipment. Since it cost so much to maintain and repair, these expensive agricultural machines often end up collecting dust. In this particular case, I think recycling older computers (i.e. Pentium I and II) and giving them away to poorer nations which want them is a great idea. After all, they are the ones most aware of what their needs are...

    • You are both 100% right and 100% wrong.

      The fault that you as so many western people make is thinking the rest of the world is one bleak desert with childeren starving while their parents fight decade long wars over so much sand.

      These areas do exist and putting computers here is indeed useless, many projects in the past have done this, or things like it I still can recall as failed project that had ppl knitting sweaters in africa.

      India however, and some other countries, is different. It has got money, a 27 billion software industry for one (you didn't think XP as US made did you?), it as got just about enough food to feed most of its citizens, most of the time.

      But now it needs to make the next step and this one is perhaps the hardest, you only need peace for farmers to farm their crops. You need knowledge to get them to farm the right crops, at the right time, to increase productivity so that a draught in one area is offset by others. You need people to think a head and build dykes and reservoirs. These things require people to learn things and that is where projects like this come in.

      As to you're point of more usefull technologies, many a western tractor is standing in africa for want of part, fuel, instruction manuals or because people are to busy fighting. The most usefull "technology" we could export to those poorest nations you mention is peace. Only then will people have time to farm and feed themselves, and they need little more for this then a stick and seeds.

    • It is nice to think that a farmer could use such a device to get prices on equipment and such from around the world, however, what good will it do them? They still will probably be forced to buy what is easily provided. Instead, this seems like a case where people are just hoping that a computer can magically fix so many problems. I don't understand it, how exactly is the computer supposed to be the answer that solves world poverty?
      You have a rather narrow view of peoples' chance for progress :-(

      Whilst the farmer may carry on with her farm, with little direct and immediate benefit to herself from the computer, it could mean a lot for her children.
      Tech jobs is a growth sector in India (unlike in Europe atm) and early access to technology for children of the poor can lead to them getting out of povrty - through a good job - and then helping others in their family/community, too.

      You might as well question what use a cheap PC is to someone who works in your local "burger bar" - after all, it won't help them with their burger-flipping :-/
      - Derwen

    • There's no financial incentive to making the masses smarter. As a matter of fact, I'm sure some large-corporate executives would find it in their best interests that the public remain as ignorant as possible, so they won't be aware of what they're buying, eating, smelling in the water, etc.
    • It is nice to think that a farmer could use such a device to get prices on equipment and such from around the world, however, what good will it do them? They still will probably be forced to buy what is easily provided.

      In a fairly efficient market (like the USA), you take a lot of things for granted. However, things are a bit different in India. There are a lot of middlemen involved, and information is a scarce commodity (I'm speaking of market information). In this situation, an "enabling device" like this Simputer can make a difference. There's no guarantee that it will, but there's a possibility that it will. And that is all that one can hope for.

      If a farmer can, through a simple search, figure out the best (selling) prices for his corn/wheat/cotton/etc. in the neighborhood, he can take advantage of that. This information then gets translated into real rupees in his pocket.

      Heck, even decent weather forecasts can mean a lot to most of them.

      We have to stop pigeon-holing the Internet into a fixed perceived role. What uses a, say, aborogine in Australia has for the Internet is best determined by her, and not by someone like me sitting here in the USA. I say provide people with the tools, and see what they make of them.

  • Price problem (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Chardish ( 529780 ) <chardish AT gmail DOT com> on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:46AM (#3885785) Homepage
    Computers aren't cheap. They never have been. When it comes to food, shelter, medicine, or computers, what do you think has the lowest spending priority for a poor person?

    -evan
    • Computers aren't cheap. They never have been.

      Yes, the whole point in the Simputer project was to change that.

      When it comes to food, shelter, medicine, or computers, what do you think has the lowest spending priority for a poor person?

      Give a poor person food, shelter, and medicine, and you will solve his problems today. Give him a computer and he will be able to afford the food, shelter, and medicine he needs in the future.

      • Give him a computer and he will be able to afford the food, shelter, and medicine he needs in the future.

        Huh? How exactly is that going to happen? The biggest thing people in third world countries need (generally speaking) is freedom. If they could get that, education, food, and even computers would follow suit.
        • Tell that to the Russians.
        • The biggest thing people in third world countries need (generally speaking) is freedom.

          And the reason why they don't have freedom is because they live in countries which do not produce enough goods for everybody. No starving person can ever be free.

          The only way for a country to improve from a "Third World" situation is to acquire an industrial technology, sufficiently advanced to compete in the world market against the "First World". See, for instance, South Korea and Taiwan. And, as long as computers are a privilege of the upper classes, the acute social distortions found in all Third World countries will continue to exist.

          I think the problem in this thread is that people assume those "simputers" would be distributed in refugee camps. If you have $200 to spend, in a Third World country you are already "middle class", and can also afford the basics you need to survive. If you can use a computer, you already have a basic education. The idea in selling cheap computers is to give tools to those who need them more, people who have the talent to be much more productive if given an opportunity.

          I should know, I live in Brazil and have seen the huge improvement in living conditions that technology brings. For instance, five years ago in this country, telecommunication services were a state monopoly. The federal-government-owned phone companies were unable to satisfy the demand for telephones, one had to buy them in the black market for over $5000. In 1998 cheap cell phones became available from privatized companies; today any day laborer in Brazil has a cell phone. A perfect example of technology increasing the productivity of low-skill workers in the Third World.

          • And, as long as computers are a privilege of the upper classes, the acute social distortions found in all Third World countries will continue to exist.

            Aren't you confusing computers with opportunity? Personally I don't buy the ``social inequity is the root of all evil'' and ``the class system is inherently bad'' arguments, but let's set that aside for a minute. Giving a random person off the street a computer does not, in any way, enable him to improve his station in life. In order to do that, he's going to have to go out and get an education (if he lacks one) and a good job. Having a computer won't help him with those things.

            In 1998 cheap cell phones became available from privatized companies; today any day laborer in Brazil has a cell phone. A perfect example of technology increasing the productivity of low-skill workers in the Third World.

            You left out the part about how having a cell phone increases the productivity of a low-skill worker. If you're a salesman or something, and your job is based on talking to people on the phone, then having a cell phone might make you more productive. But if you work in a field or a factory or something, having a cell phone won't improve your productivity in any measurable way.

            Your argument is really specious.
            • You left out the part about how having a cell phone increases the productivity of a low-skill worker.

              I didn't want to extend an already long post, but, since you asked, people who benefit most from a cell phone are unemployed people doing odd jobs. For gardeners, housekeepers, plumbers, etc, it can make a huge difference when one can be readily called to do some job that appears. I first realized this when I was at a meeting at my company and a phone went off. It belonged to the cleaning woman who had come in to clean a coffee spill.

              • You're really reaching here. Having a cell phone, with only tiny exceptions, doesn't make anyone more employable. It's irrelevant to a person's overall social or financial standing.

                If having a cell phone meant you were suddenly skilled at operating machine tools, or educated at a significantly higher level, that might mean something. But being able to make and receive phone calls doesn't make you more employable, or put you in a better job. It just helps you do your existing job better. That's not going to do anything to affect social or economic inequity.
                • When a pipe blows up and your kitchen is under water, do call a plumber who has a phone or do you go all the way to his home to see if he's available? For a low skill-worker whose livelihood depends on small services, a phone means a huge difference in employability.
                  • But we're talking about cellular phones in particular. We did a lot of business for a long time before cellular phones became available. I still don't think the argument is valid.
      • Okay. so this person doesn't have Food, Shelter, or Medicine but they have an electric socket in the wall of their cardboard shanty to plug a computer into?

        You're kidding right? This buisiness model was a VERY stupid idea. A point of a buisiness is to make money. You cannot make money off of people who do not have any money, or the ability to generate any money.
        • You cannot make money off of people who do not have any money

          These people DO have money. The Simputer would cost $200, they would need at least that much money to buy one. I don't know about India, but in Brazil $200 is two months minimum wage. People with $200 to spend in a computer in the Third World do not live in cardboard shanties. They live in brick houses, much more solid than the particleboard panels used in most homes in the USA.

    • Agreed. I think (this time) Bill Gates has it right about the "digital divide":

      If you're hungry and still in a country where many people are dying of dysentary, measles, malaria, etc. (preventable stuff), then 'Net access is a non-issue.

      Last I remember from Psych class, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs had "surfing the 'net" nowhere near "food".

      • Re:Price problem (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Twylite ( 234238 )

        If you're hungry and in a country where many people are dying of preventable illnesses, education is the greatest key to upliftment.

        Most children have to forgo the opportunity of education in order to survive, because they are needed at home to contribute. This means that they don't have the time to walk 15km to and from school every day, as many children in Africa do.

        A broader base of accessible computers is a means to improve this situation. It will allow literacy improvement at home for many children and adults. It will also bring knowledge on how to avoid preventable diseases, primarily through basic nutrition and sanitation.

        These are areas of adult education that have been notoriously difficult to target because of a lack of resources, and the target audience being illiterate and not having the time to devote to learning.

        An interactive medium like a computer does not require literacy, and can be used to teach literacy. It can also (through expert systems) substitute for a doctor or paramedic when experts are not on hand (say, 100km away on a dirt road).

        The digital divide is not about people who don't have (quake|word processing|e-mail) versus those who do, it is about the failure to use modern (digital) technologies to address issues in underdeveloped countries.

        Maslow's Hierarchy is a model, and as with most models it is not entirely accurate, nor is it intended to function without context. 'Surfing the net' may not feature, but security needs and social needs -- both of which are enabled through education -- are directly above physical/biological needs.

        • If you're hungry and in a country where many people are dying of preventable illnesses, education is the greatest key to upliftment [dictionary.com].
          <pedantic> uplift [dictionary.com] </pedantic>

          Sorry for splitting hairs :-) but in a post about education it was too tempting to resist.

          • According to Google, 33000 lemmings^Wpeople think you're wrong. So does the Oxford English Dictionary.

            You're American right ...?

            • > You're American right ...?
              No :-)

              Seriously, is upliftment a real word? I always thought it to be one of those pseudo-words that were popular in some parts of the world -- if you look closely at the Google results, you'll find quite a number of the 33k results to be from pages written by Asians/Africans. I wouldn't be surprised if upliftment was popular in `local' english (for some values of local) but it's hardly a standard word. On the other hand, the OED has over the past few years been very inclusive in its approach to including words from across the globe (jihad from arabic(?), thali from hindi, and so on) so who knows, somebody could have included upliftment as well.

              Encarta [msn.com] can't locate ``upliftment'' (though I know it's hardly the final answer); but then neither does the online cambridge dictionary [cambridge.org] or dict.org [dict.org] or dictionary.com [dictionary.com] (which searches through quite a few dictionaries). My old dogeared copy of Oxford Concise also doesn't have the word.

              I don't have a subscription to the OED Online, so I can't go to the ultimate authority :-), but please, if you can give me a citation, I'd be very glad (contact info here [chaoszone.org]).
        • A broader base of accessible computers is a means to improve this situation.

          Barely, if at all. Computers are not the end-all and be-all of education. There are more important things to spend money on in impoverished areas, like reading and writing. Focus on the basics first, where your money stretches a hell of a lot farther. You do not need a computer to learn to read, write, do math, etc. Computers are tools (and when it comes to education very specialized tools, not cure alls) and expensive ones at that. Shoving a computer in front a population doesn't make them any smarter.

          It will allow literacy improvement at home for many children and adults.

          So will books, and they're a hell of a lot cheaper.

          It will also bring knowledge on how to avoid preventable diseases, primarily through basic nutrition and sanitation.

          Again, so do books and *doctors*. Throwing a computer in front of the masses isn't going to all of the sudden transform them into nutritional experts.

          Computers are fun (I own way too many of them), but they are simply tools, no more, no less. They are no cureall for education. As Cliff Stoll pointed out, the lowly filmstrip 60 years ago was givin same hype as computers now for their supposed "revolutionizing" of education. I'll take a crap teacher over a good filmstrip (if there is such a thing) any day.

          • I think you missed my point entirely. In many rural communities, especially in Africa (the situation in India, specifically, is different), people don't have access to education because of the distances involved in getting to facilities.

            Studies have shown that computers CAN, if used correctly, address this problem, and be a substitute, not simply a tool, for traditional basic education. This is because a computer CAN be used to teach literacy, basic mathematics, etc, and most importantly CAN be located nearer to the target audience than traditional resources (such as teachers).

            Books are useless without literacy. Even for the literate, educational books are of questionable value without a suitable guide. This is a basic flaw in using a non-interactive medium for education. Only once you have learned to educate yourself (which is supposed to be the basic skill you learn at a University) can you be reasonably expected to learn from books. (This isn't to say that people don't, but rather that not all people do).

            Regarding medical knowledge, I was referring to expert systems, not to medical texts. In a community where there is no doctor, an maybe only a nurse several kilometers away, an expert system can be a valuable aid.

            Finally, having been taught by several crap teachers, I'll take a filmstrip any day. Educational broadcasts in developing nations are proving to have more success than formal education, because they reach a wider audience, and are presented in a clear and understandable fashion ... completely unlike a lesson from a crap teacher.

      • > Last I remember from Psych class, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs had "surfing the 'net" nowhere near "food".

        Maslow was evidently never a coder :)

    • What were the advantages of Simputer anyway?

      Does it have economies of scale like PC has? Two years from now, would it have competed with $200 PC's?

      Does it have a familiar interface needed to succeed in a mass market?

      And why does anyone have to spend money to install simputer access points?

      How much money is needed to support its infrastructure, support, distribution, customer service, things which PC's already have streamlined?

      The whole basic idea of a hand-held is for personal use & easy mobility. If it were to be 'installed' at fixed points & 'shared' among various users, why cant you use a PC for that?

      Why wasn't money spent on installing PC's & training for poor to use the PC's instaed of some Linux zealots who thought they had some cool idea.

      It is time for the govt to stop funding these ponzie schemes & concentrate on providing technology for the masses

      SImputer is definitely not one of them, never was & never will be.

      Cheers,
      Roshan
    • As has been stated earlier the price is prohibitive if you think of it as a personal computer. Its a communal computer. For instance this is marketed for a typical small village that has one phone line and one phone.

      I really don't know if this can do what its promised to do. For instance by connecting your simputer with the phone you can get daily prices on what your crop is worth and what you grow is selling for at different places. Hypothetically, the poor village could be making smarter selling and buying decisions which can only lead to being less poor. Whether this is practical is beyond me. If some province or other village has cotton cheap is a nice fact to know but delivering the goods is totally a different story. Depending on how much infrastructure you have in place it could work out very well for all concerned.

      Then there's education software. Who knows it could connect to a medical diagnostic database.

      The real problem I see here is expecting this gamble, which it really is, to work in a non-subsidized market. Not only is the price prohibitive in a few respects (afterall it is an investment, communal or not), its also only effective if everyone has one. This thing will probably not go anywhere without government subsidies.
      • Ah yes... a computer is going to fix the problems of a 3000 year old society that is floundering and unable to pull anybody out of poverty even though they've had 3000 years to do it. Aren't you all being just a little bit blind?

        We are talking about countries and societies that absolutely REFUSE to take the steps neccessary to increase living standards. America has created a super power within 200 years. INDIA has had 3000 years, and yet can't seem to do anything besides create densly populated shanty villages.
        • > INDIA has had 3000 years, and yet can't seem to do anything

          This country was a loose confederation of states for most of those 3000 years, and most had no joint standing army. One invasion after another -- Aryan, Hun, Moslem, British, not to mention the (more than the?) usual quota of internal intrigue (a la europe) raped India quite enough. Think about that, you prick, before passing snap judgements on 1.1 billion people.

          > We are talking about countries and societies that absolutely REFUSE to take the steps neccessary to increase living standards.

          How do _you_ know? Go and check out how the GDP has risen over the past 15 years. Check out the cost of living too, while you're about it. Check out how basic health services, telecom, transport have improved. Can we do better? Sure! We have crappy leaders, imho, and our education system could use a thorough cleanup. But are we _not trying at all_? No, you pampered little snot. We are _trying_, and it may take longer than your lifetime or mine, but I think we'll get there, with help or without.

      • Who knows it could connect to a medical diagnostic database.

        Ah, yet another vision of the future which will never come to be (like flying cars). And who's going to pay for access to this database? It's not going to sit online for free, consuming hundreds if not thousands of watts of power and kilo/megabits of bandwidth in some rack somewhere.

        Didn't the late 90s show that the 'net can *not* provide useful, reliable information, for free? Sometimes you can find an online source which fits two of those three, but most of the time it's only one.

  • Perhaps instead of trying to sell the computer they should run as a Non-profit org, and collect computers, accept donations, sell banner placement on their site (to buy parts and pay for building) etc and give away computer to the poor?

    Giving away computers to the poor would be a great thing. Perhaps when a person goes on Suplimental Security or Welfare (not same thing I know) the government should give them a computer too (it's not like they aren't giving them a good bit of money anyway).

    Too bad this company is having problems, because I think it was a good idea

  • It's really a shame that something like this can't take off in third world countries in its current state. It's well-intentioned, but I think it really only caters to a specific market, like the farmers or lower-class businessmen the article mentions. While surfing the net isn't a commonly held luxury for impoverished third-worlders, if you've ever tried to generally surf on a handheld, it's not easy or convenient. Many pages appear screwed up because they were designed for larger displays with different/higher resolutions. And other than just surfing, most people and family members wouldn't have much more of a use for that than the pen and paper or calculators they'd already use for math, writing letters, etc.

    I have a Palm VIIx, but it isn't all that useful to me, even when I'm at the dorm. The wireless feature it touted so much is too expensive for most people to use (I got it as a hand-me-down from my dad). It also clips webpages and makes them look pretty weird.Despite being in college, either I'm not busy enough or organized enough to make good use of the calendar, though I do occasionally enter events into it and carry it in my backpack. The feature I use most is the address book, but every month or two I print off the list into a handy sheet I can fold and keep in my wallet, so I don't have to lug the thign around in my pocket (very uncomfortable, as I'm short and thusly my pants have small pockets). I can't always be wearing my jacket or backpack, such as right now that I'm at work.

  • This is stupid (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What this company (and a lot of others) fail to realize is that the market for hi-tech devices isn't there until more basic needs are met. This goes for pretty much all third-world nations. There's no point in providing people with new technology when the "old" technology - indoor plumbing, running (clean) water, etc. isn't available to everyone yet. Solve the basic problems first, and only *then* try to sell them computers.

  • too expensive (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bigpat ( 158134 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:53AM (#3885838)
    I think $200 is still too expensive to be of much use to craftsman and farmers. And what happens when one of these things breaks and you lose all your inventory information or records of who owes you what? I think paper and pencil is probably a much better use of people's time. People should be taught how to use computers in schools, but it does them a disservice to tell them they really need these machines. I fear this is just another way big companies wish to tell people how to live their lives and have gotten the intelectuals to prmote their agendas.

    Reminds me of the big chemical companies promoting pesticides in the third world thus putting entire populations and countries into debt.

    Don't fall for this crap. If it is a choice between a computer and a cleaner water supply, then go for the water.

    • You're absolutely right: $200 is far too expensive. But...

      A pencil and paper only assist if you are either literate, or able to receive instruction. Computers, on the other hand, can teach literacy. This has huge potential: (in Africa) many people can't take the time to attend literacy classes (which may involve walking 15km or more). There are also a lack of resources to sustain ongoing training.

      Between a computer and cleaner water, sure, go for the cleaner water. But first consider some things: (1) in many places the water is sufficiently clean or at least not a health risk to the population (whereas it may be a risk to a Western visitor who is not accustomed to the local bacteria); (2) without education, most people don't know enough about the importance of clean water and basic sanitation, which in itself is the greatest threat to natural supplies of clean water.

      Reminds me of the big chemical companies promoting pesticides in the third world thus putting entire populations and countries into debt. Supplying cheap(ish) computers is subtly different from supplying engineered toxins which solve your problem for a year or two but poison the environment so that only related products from the same supplier will allow food to grow.

      • > A pencil and paper only assist if you are either literate, or able to receive instruction. Computers, on the other hand, can teach literacy.

        This little PDA doesn't seem like it would teach an indian farmer how to read, specially when it's main interface requires that you READ!

        How about we send money for real teachers? There's an idea! :-/

  • Oh please this has nothing to do with poverty !! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gelfling ( 6534 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @09:54AM (#3885842) Homepage Journal
    A Simputer used to get on the internet and check land records has nothing whatsoever to do with poor people and whether they will subsitute computers for food. This is for mid level people, probably state employees who are sent out to do a job, it's for urban shopkeepers who need to check something online or students who nead and educational tool. In India that's MILLIONS of people.

    The idea that the vastness of India is nothing but barfoot rice farmers and water buffaloes is frankly, insulting.

  • This is certainly not overly surprising.
    Trying to get money for development aid is hard enough, getting money together bring comps to rural towns is low on the priority scale when food, shelter and disease are also at issue.

    Doesn't mean we can't keep trying though....
  • I just can't buy it.

    I don't believe that this simputer effort even makes sense. Their are a lot of people here in USA that could afford a computer if they needed or wanted one, but don't have one, because they are not necessary.

    It is hoped that the villagers who would use a shared simputer could afford to buy their own $2 smart card. How will those same villagers be able to afford the $5 worth of batteries that this thing is going to burn through 2 or 3 times a week, or even daily under heavy use?

    What problem is the the the simputer going to solve for the poor Indian? Balance his checkbook? address book? Notepad? calculator? calendar? Surf the net on a QVGA screen? ( is their a phone? ) spreadsheet? database? email?

    I can't see it..

    ]

    • Computers are, surprisingly, less necessary in an environment where there is a higher literacy rate. Computers, unlike books or pencil and paper, can teach literacy. This is probably the most critical application in underdeveloped countries.

      As for the problems it will solve: #1. Communication. This is far less obvious that it may seem, but many poor people spend an enormous amount of their annual income on communication, primarily to stay in contact with loved ones who have moved to cities (in search of an income / better living). It is painfully obvious that e-mail is orders of magnitude cheaper than long-distance phone calls; something that many "operators" take their cut for along the line (most often an enterprising shop owner pays ridiculous bribes to get a telephone installed, and then passes that cost along to the consumers ...).

      Access to knowledge bases is also important. Medical knowledge is often sorely lacking in rural areas. For literate adults, a source of educational information is also important.

      Technology can be used to improve quality of life, not just as a passtime for the rich.

  • Perhaps the gov't should just fine Worldcom ? billion dollars (that they misreported), and fund a free computer program for the poor...

  • Sim-Puter woes (Score:2, Insightful)

    by El_Smack ( 267329 )

    The really do have troubles.
    First, a tornado hit the factory. Then the workers rioted because local taxes are so high. As soon as that got fixed, the earthquake hit. What could possibly happen next, an alien invasion?!?!

  • Hmmm...isn't this just the kind of thing Gates's charity foundation should be supporting ?

    Oh, but of course, this thing will run Linux, and we can't be helping people like that, can we.

    • Hmmm...isn't this just the kind of thing Gates's charity foundation should be supporting ?
      Oh, but of course, this thing will run Linux, and we can't be helping people like that, can we.

      You're right - perhaps ESR should underwrite this project. When the entire Linux community/industry (call it what you will) has made as many philanthropic donations as the Gates Foundation has, let me know. Here's a hint: I don't think it will be for a long time.

  • Plain Insulting..some of these comments are.. (Score:4, Informative)

    by cOdEgUru ( 181536 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @10:10AM (#3885959) Homepage Journal
    Ok people, Lets get the friggin facts straight.

    Despite what Western media and half of what Texas believes, India is not swarmed with people deprived of their basic needs. Although there are still parts of the country where people are under poverty, there are parts of the country where the community is much advanced. Heck! the state that I am originally from (look it up on National Geographic - as "Kerala" was named as the one of the best 50 places to visit), the literacy rate is 100%. Can any other place in the world claim the same ?

    Rants aside, the Simputer was intended to help Govt employees, and employees of other corporations who had to send these people out to the remote areas of the country to educate and to help these people. You cant send them out to the far corners of the state with a notebook and a pen. You need them to have access to information, the same information that you would ultimately provide to the people who never had it. Understandably, food and clothing and a roof above your head are the basic amenities.

    So please, if you really wanna know more about this country that you are so ignorant about, take a trip. Fsck the trip guides, ask someone who had been there, and take the untread path, and discover the heart of this beautiful country.

    And while you are at it, dont miss out on my little South Indian state, learn more about it here [keralatourism.org]
    • Heck! the state that I am originally from (look it up on National Geographic - as "Kerala" was named as the one of the best 50 places to visit), the literacy rate is 100%. Can any other place in the world claim the same ?

      Vatican City, a.k.a. The Holy See [cia.gov], immediatly comes to mind. See here [cia.gov].
    • Methinks CodeGuru works for the Keralatourism board.

      Seriously, it is a valid point. Sure parts of India are very poor, however it is not true of the entire country.
    • All off topic of course.

      >(look it up on National Geographic - as "Kerala" was named as the one of the best 50 places to visit), the literacy rate is 100%. Can any other place in the world claim the same ?

      As far as being one of the best 50, I bet 49 other places can claim that. Literacy rate? I don't have any numbers to support it, but I'm guessing that Sealand has 100% (could be 50%).

      Okay, I'm just fooling around.

      Kenny
    • Ok people, Lets get the friggin facts straight.

      Yep lets do that shall we?. If a country has more than 70% living in poverty conditions, it is considered to be poor. 10% borders an exception than a rule. Just because there are rich people living in Somalia, Ethiopia doesn't mean those countries are not poor.

      It also helps to check the median salaries of various countries, before shooting someone's mouth off.

      Also literacy means poeple can recognize certain symbols as certain sounds. It Doesn't mean people will actually read books are even get an education.

      100% literacy is used only for govt employees to get a raise or boast during their appraisal. It doesn't mean a squat if they dont utilise it.

      Kerala could be a beautiful state, so are thousands of other states around this world

      Fighting FUD with FUD is defintely not a solution

      Cheers,
      Roshan

    • Blockquoth the cOdEgUru:

      Heck! the state that I am originally from (look it up on National Geographic - as "Kerala" was named as the one of the best 50 places to visit), the literacy rate is 100%. Can any other place in the world claim the same ?

      Interestingly enough, Cuba can. According to the CIA [cia.gov], the total population literacy is 95.7%

      Cuba is exactly the sort of place I'd expect the Simputer would do wonderfully. Many of its citizens have close ties with Americans--Americans with money. Education is one of the few things the Cuban government got right--very right. (Their medical system isn't that bad. What it lacks in sophistication and material supplies it make up with truly universal coverage with a strong emphasis on preventative measures, or true health maintenance.) Cubans have the skills to put computing to good use and the potential access to computers through those who escaped to America.

      Now, all we need is to lift the embargo....

      b&

      P.S. Communisim is terrible. The Cuban people deserve a representative government and a leader other than Castro. Heck, even true Communisim would be a huge step up from what they have now. That the Cuban people have done as well as they have is a testament to their strength. Lifting the embargo would go a long ways towards destabilizing the Castro regime to the point where a replacement is practical. b&

      • Interestingly,

        Kerala were the only state in India who had a communist govt soon after independence.

        I believe Communists were ruling the state even before they arrived in Cuba.

        I am not flaming here, but I believe the literacy being 100% had a lot to do with having Communists in power. Basically because, when they first came in to power, all they had were the grassroots movement and empowering them was the first thing the communist party did. I know shit happened from then on (Communists went the capitalist way), but in the beginning they were really about freedom of choice and power to the people.
    • Iceland's literacy rate is 100 percent.
    • the literacy rate is 100%. Can any other place in the world claim the same ?
      Cuba, maybe?
    • Despite what Western media and half of what Texas believes, India is not swarmed with people deprived of their basic needs. Although there are still parts of the country where people are under poverty, there are parts of the country where the community is much advanced.

      Oh, good going there... try to fight stereotypes with some of your own, huh? Despite what you believe, Texas is not full of ignorant hicks. In any case, your first sentence doesn't necessarily follow from your second. 35% [cia.gov] of Indians are below the poverty line. And with a population of about 1 billion, that's 350 million people in poverty. Sure, parts of the country is quite advanced, but that doesn't change the fact that a significant percentage, and an even more significant number of the population live in poverty.

      ... the literacy rate is 100%. Can any other place in the world claim the same ?

      How about Denmark [cia.gov], Finland [cia.gov], Norway [cia.gov], and Sweden [cia.gov]? (Okay, so Sweden is "only" 99%). Those are all estimates though; I doubt if the literacy rate is really 100% in any country (or state).

      P.S. Speaking of facts, the Census of India says that the literacy rate in Kerala is 91% [censusindia.net]. Very good, certainly, but a bit short of your 100% claim.

  • that we try to solve the worlds problems when we have our fair share of them here.

    Sure in Canada fewer people are dying of hunger or malnutrition [ignoring the obese] but its still a problem here.

    And to think you can solve another nations problems by throwing technology at them [e.g. make them western] is just plain ignorant.

    You don't save a people by enslaving them to your ways of life. If they want to live the types of religion based lives they have now thats completely up to them. If they are willing to violently protest a bunch of 6 yr old kids going to school [ireland/england] then so be it, etc...

    But yeah, giving some uneducated allah praying terrorist a computer, that will solve world hunger.

    Chances are they will just sell off the donated computers and use that to buy more guns so they can defend their religious beliefs.

    Tom
    • First, according to the article, the Simputer was developed by Indian people. Now, that is no guarantee that they are right in their judgement what people in India need, but your comment about "we try to solve the world's problems" isn't quite right here. Unless you are Indian, of course, but from the rest of your article I conclude you aren't.

      Second, the majority of people in India is not Muslim, but Hindu. This is no judgement, just a matter of fact.

      Third, the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. So even if Muslims get those computers, that doesn't necessarily mean terrorists get them. What would you say if one would call all US citizens racists because there is the Clu-Clux-Clan?

      Finally, making the price low is meant to enable the people to buy the computers. Now why should a terrorist first buy a computer, then re-sell it to buy weapons for that money? I guess terrorists who have the money and want to buy weapons just take their money and buy the weapons, without even thinking about buying and reselling a computer first.

    • > But yeah, giving some uneducated allah praying terrorist a computer, that will solve world hunger.

      No, tomstdenis, it won't. But maybe it will give an allah praying _kid_ (or, in India's case, a <<insert your favorite god of a total of 3.3e8>> praying kid, something to look forward to when he grows up, so that he doesn't have to lead a life of crime and violence to make ends meet.

      Maybe it can even make him believe that tech is cool, something worth studying for (and in India there are all _sorts_ of affirmative action programs for the poor that get them into the top colleges in the country, and out, through exchange programs) and that it really can change the quality of his life.

      Ah, well, starry eyed optimist, that's me :(.

      And a final point, not to the parent, rather to _many_ (not all) of the posters in this story: for _once_ I'd like to see a US poster comment intelligently about life outside their 50 precious states. Again, too much to ask for, I guess.

  • "Computer for the poor" project having money problems? Say it ain't so! Duh... what did you expect?

    In fact, the whole idea of "X for the poor" is flawed because it presuposes that there is something called the "poor market" which, even if it did exist, would require us to keep people poor in order to continue serving it. This actually "worked" in the US, where "housing for the poor" succeeded in keeping people poor so that it could continue to serve them, but I don't think that's what the Indians really want.

    Instead, they should offer "computers as a gateway to wealth". Now, how can a computer lead to wealth? Maybe it can't, but at least the whole premise of the idea is no longer flawed.

    The poor who want computer services are probably best served by setting up computers, *good computers* not "computers for the poor", in libraries, bazaars, kiosks, or whatever gathering place is already available over there. Ironicly, it would probably be better if you charged them to use the computers. If the local government does that, it would stimulate the local economy by employing people to maintain the computers.

    Of course, the people are probably more interested in silly things like food, medicine, clothing, and learning to read and write.

  • Which spin on the situation. (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This was an interesting contrast to this story from just 10 days back. [cnn.com] The problems remain the same, but the spin is totally different. Since manufacturing doesn't run on internet time, it is hard to conclude which one to belive.
  • Q: What do you call a computer that sells for under $10?

    A: An abacus.

  • some clarifications (Score:4, Informative)

    by tanveer1979 ( 530624 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @10:41AM (#3886186) Homepage Journal
    I belong to the same sity as the simputer, and have been in touch with the progress. Firstly i think a lot of slashdotters are confusing the meaning of third world countries. A third world does country like india does not mean that everybody lives barefoot and goes hungry. Basically the concept here is that for the middle class ie people haveing one car 2 kids who goto school and comfortable life *cannot* afford PDA's because when we convert Dollers to Rupees 1000 Dollars menas 50000 Rs. In India somebody earning 50000 Rs/pm is in the upper class. So currently not only for poor even for middle class and cooperative societies that is steep. The $200 simputer will basically enable cooprative societies to manage their records, order stuff etc. Currently in some places, in the rural areas the internet is used to send request to companies to order products For example in a village in andhra when the farmers have a sufficent quantity of milk they send a email that the vehicle can come and pick up the stocks. This is a very rudimentry examply cheap computer will enable such things on a larger scale. Also it will benifit students who have the basic necessities but cannot afford such things. This is a small step. Maybe this will lead to cheaper computing that will be good for all, developed or underdeveloped
  • The thing to appreciate is the thought of making something for the common man. In a land of myriad languages, swapping a "Sim" card and getting the language of your choice, is priceless. Looking at the market opportunity, there is potential, but given the market conditions, I am not surprised no one is investing.

  • A low serial number, special case, or cover at a premium price. I would consider paying more to have an early one and to help lower the price. The extra cash could go to lowering the price in the Indian market, and by getting the early runs out of the way the price could also drop. Also experienced Linux users could be more helpful in the programming debug process.

  • There may be setbacks to the Simputer, but... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by altgrr ( 593057 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @11:00AM (#3886347)
    ...this article from the BBC [bbc.co.uk] details a different approach to the problem of taking computers to the masses - make the internet accessible through one person, who goes round villages on a motorbike with a laptop which has some pre-downloaded web pages at the villagers' request.

    It seems a strange concept: you might think that the things the article mentions the service being used for (local news, crop prices, government forms etc) were already catered for through newspapers and the postal system. But then I don't live out in a rural village in India, so I wouldn't know.

    What both this and the Simputer project show, is that there is demand for such a service, regardless of whether or not we, who are totally isolated from the situation, think there is.
  • This is like Ayn Rand's wet dream. If she were alive right now she'd be pointing at this company and screaming that it proves her point about Humanitarian buisinesses. OF COURSE THIS WAS GOING TO FAIL. Selling computers to the poor, and only to the poor? Where's the profit motive? Where's the money that is going to support this buisiness?
  • They are pricing this product slightly above a simple Palm handheld. They claim functionality somewhere between the Palm OS and Linux (or maybe Pocket PC?). And people wonder why there is no funding available? It would be more cost effective to buy a boatload of Palms or Visors, give them away and let the professors write applications for those.
  • Many of you seem to have forgotten this very important fact: Computers need RELIABLE electricity.

    Most of the people in the world do NOT have electricity flowing into their home/village. If they do have it than the electricity is not reliable (outtages, surges, brownouts, etc...)

    This just won't work until these socities evolve to the point where they can support the computers with a solid infrastructure

  • Not gonna happen (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Skarstedt ( 593077 )
    While a noble initiative, this won't work. "Rural" folks don't need computers. They've gotten along without them just fine before now, why mess with them? As far as I know, there is no killer app that would make an Indian subsistence farmer ache to have access to a computer. When a killer app comes along, some enterprising company will then fill the market need. And there will be no need for a group of academics to shove the things down "Rural" folk's throats.

  • More path of resistance (Score:3, Interesting)

    by r_j_prahad ( 309298 ) <r_j_prahad@NOSpAM.hotmail.com> on Monday July 15, 2002 @11:54AM (#3886700)
    There are other problems that will happen as Simputer wretsles its way into market. First, Microsoft is very popular in India, not important why. Second, and much important, is the problem of corruption. To reach the sales goals for a $200 system, Simputer are going to have to have political friends, and that I just cannot see happening. Corruption is so ingrained in Indian government there are even special laws to address it. Microsoft is not unique, just uniquely wealthy.
  • Perhaps this is redundant, given that the 'standard PC' is pretty much a public standard, but perhaps another way of building cheap computers is to evolve a good open source hardware design that can be assembled from cheap components, and which GNU/Linux will be guaranteed to run on. The economies of scale will then work to keep costs down.
    We should be aiming at a $100 computer that approaches the power of a P100.
    To all those people who say: give people clean water and education before gadgets, I'd point out that information equals money, and computers used in the right way (like cars, mobile phones, capital, property etc.) are an excellent way of increasing real standards of wealth.
    Lastly, has anyone tried to run anything other than games on something like a Cybiko? It seems to be an excellent (robust and cheap) platform for small hand-held computing.
  • I remeber reading the original Simputer stuff last year and that had very different goals than those discussed now. People here are discussing if a single poor farmer could afford such a device and would it make his/her life measurable better? The orginal concept as I understood it was that there would be one simputer per town and a farmer could get goverment aid, file paperwork, market (as in vegeatble) prices, receieve email (as in free communications as opposed to pay post) etc....

    In short it was a common shared resource to connect small villages and help provide goverment services that didn't make it out to rural locations. It might start as one per town and as it bacame more usefull (demand raised) it would be one per neighborhood, one per street etc.... . These seem like very realizable goals and it would be either the combined resources of a town or the goverment that would pay (~$200) for the Simputer to enable services and communication with said town.

    This seems like a reasonable goal and one that would actually help small rural villages and with time increase to helping a wide portion not only of the poor or rural but be a standard community device. It would be helpful to any community, even in the US or other "rich" countries. It might replace the phonebook at a payphone, so that the phone listings are always upto date easier to use as it could assume that you are looking for the Bill Smith in this neighborhood rather than all the Bill Smiths in NYC. It could provide info about local stores, resturaunts, movie times etc... or access to communications for the homeless for those traveling (most people want to get email while traveling but don't want to carry 7 lb laptop, 3 lb charger, ......). The use has the best computer technology but most of that is in the form of desktops at homes of those well off, when you're out shopping, vactaioning or whatever, that desktop doesn't get you much, so a public data terminal would be a boost to every segment of the population. My countries in the world have email cafe's in every town, I haven't seen more than a couple anywhere in the US, I'm sure there are out there, but not enough to be able to assume that I could get info while not a t home.

    The local phone companies need to start offering some sort of digital payphone so that I can keep in touch or lookup movie times after dinner etc.... I'd pay $.25 to $.50 just to know if I got new email, there is a huge market out there, everyone is just to afraid to put something in a shared area for fear that it will get vandalized.
  • The Simputer is different enough from established computer platforms that I believe it will require some grass roots efforts to popularize it. I think that allowing some hobbyist electronics companies to produce a Simputer kit would help proliferate the device and probably would cross-fertilize the initiative to develop the computer for poor countries.

    In particular, the licensing terms from simputer.org are unfavorable to very small commercial operations: Any commercial exploitation of the Specifications (whether Simputer or Simputerized) involves a nominal one time payment to the Trust. The payment will be $25,000 for developing countries and $250,000 for developed countries.

    So, what about a smaller kit company in a developed nation, such as Jameco or others? They're almost certainly not going to spend $250K for a Simputer license. But if kit vendors were allowed open access to the plans, specifications, PC board layouts, etc. we could see enough hobbyists building and using Simputers to create a small revolution.

    At least, the royalty should be graduated according to the company's current size and profitability.

    My point: sometimes, drawing a hard line in the sand between "noble" non commercial use and "lowly" commercial exploitation is silly, and I can think of innumerable examples in the world where lack of profit motive and strong armed egalitarianism ruined a market.

  • Possible applications are endless...really (Score:3)

    by Loge ( 83167 ) on Monday July 15, 2002 @02:56PM (#3888202)
    Everytime I think about possible applications for the Simputer, I am reminded of this press release [jestsandjokes.com] issued a few years ago:

    The Global Village

    KABINDA, ZAIRE--In a move IBM offices are hailing as a major step in the company's ongoing worldwide telecommunications revolution, M'wana Ndeti, a member of Zaire's Bantu tribe, used an IBM global uplink network modem yesterday to crush a nut.

    Ndeti, who spent 20 minutes trying to open the nut by hand, easily cracked it open by smashing it repeatedly with the powerful modem.

    "I could not crush the nut by myself," said the 47-year-old Ndeti, who added the savory nut to a thick, peanut-based soup minutes later. "With IBM's help, I was able to break it." Ndeti discovered the nut-breaking, 28.8 V.34 modem yesterday, when IBM was shooting a commercial in his southwestern Zaire village. During a break in shooting, which shows African villagers eagerly teleconferencing via computer with Japanese schoolchildren, Ndeti snuck onto the set and took the modem, which he believed would serve well as a "smashing" utensil.

    IBM officials were not surprised the longtime computer giant was able to provide Ndeti with practical solutions to his everyday problems. "Our telecommunications systems offer people all over the world global networking solutions that fit their specific needs," said Herbert Ross, IBM's director of marketing. "Whether you're a nun cloistered in an Italian abbey or an Aborigine in Australia's Great Sandy Desert, IBM has the ideas to get you where you want to go today."

    According to Ndeti, of the modem's many powerful features, most impressive was its hard plastic casing, which easily sustained several minutes of vigorous pounding against a large stone. "I put the nut on a rock, and I hit it with the modem," Ndeti said. "The modem did not break. It is a good modem."

    Ndeti was so impressed with the modem that he purchased a new, state-of- the-art IBM workstation, complete with a PowerPC 601 microprocessor, a quad-speed internal CD-ROM drive and three 16-bit ethernet networking connectors. The tribesman has already made good use of the computer system, fashioning a gazelle trap out of its wires, a boat anchor out of the monitor and a crude but effective weapon from its mouse.

    "This is a good computer," said Ndeti, carving up a just-captured gazelle with the computer's flat, sharp internal processing device. "I am using every part of it. I will cook this gazelle on the keyboard." Hours later, Ndeti capped off his delicious gazelle dinner by smoking the computer's 200-page owner's manual.

    IBM spokespeople praised Ndeti's choice of computers. "We are pleased that the Bantu people are turning to IBM for their business needs," said company CEO William Allaire. "From Kansas City to Kinshasa, IBM is bringing the world closer together. Our cutting-edge technology is truly creating a global village."

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