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Linux Software

Little Linux Systems For Whatever Ails Ya 214

Posted by CmdrTaco from the little-is-fun-too dept.
An Anonymous Coward writes: "Looking for small pre-built systems for custom Linux-based projects or products? Look no further. LinuxDevices.com has assembled a handy reference list of small systems that can serve as ready-made platforms for prototyping applications, or as the basis of application-specific Linux-based systems and devices. The style, performance, and costs of these systems vary greatly."
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Little Linux Systems for Whatever Ails Ya More

Little Linux Systems for Whatever Ails Ya

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  • http://www.plathome.co.jp/products/openblocks/inde x.html

    Also check out
    http://www.axis.com I've used their embedded linux ETRAX100LX boards, they work great. Single
    ethernet, but it comes with entire cross compiler
    and flash boot loader that works over ethernet
  • Ok, we take a good quality keyboard and do it up c-64 style, add a usb hub, catv-out, vga port, ethernet hub, compact flash slots, and possibly a firewire port. Add some kind of wild Crusoe type processor running in native mode, and allow for an external dc power source, and it would be a cyberdeck just like from ShadowRun!

    Just take the thing anywhere, insert a special compact flash card with game, and plug it in! Instant server! Slap in the Lintendo card, hook up to your tv, and attach the usb joystick - instant game console. Take it to work, plug into ethernet, attach firewire drive, connect to monitor and usb devices, and it is an instant X11 workstation!

    What a flexible gizmo this would be. Imagine a Beowulf cluster of them...

  • No dual ethernet models?

    • Given that dual ethernet SBC's are the ones with the most interesting applications, I'm surprised they aren't readily available. Please write to your favorite SBC Mfg. and suggest an SBC configured for the following application. A board like this could be put to widespread use in corporate networks.

      Desirable features of dual-ethernet modles:
      • Small size.
      • Self powered with small batteries or easily concealed ac adapter.
      • Easy to conceal in a corporate network. (Above suspended ceiling tiles, or behind faceplate of ethernet jack, inside of service pole between multiple cubicles.)
      • Priced within teenager's or intern's budget.
      Ideally, such a device would have an optional downloadable specialized 31337 skr1pt k1ddi3 distribution...
      • tools specialized to "phone-home" in the wee hours with sniffed data
      • remote controlled attacks, MITM, dns/arp spoofing/poisioning, etc.
      • transparent bridge to help make it hard to detect/locate, because you have to insert device "inline" between an ethernet port and the desktop workstation serviced by that ethernet jack.
      (Please don't reply with "I could get arrested". I'm way past old enough to know better than to ever do this.) I just find the potential amusing. And it will inevitably happen -- including the part about being within the budget reach of said users. Just for penetration testing -- honest. Don't try this at home. (only at work)

      • Too bad /. doesn't have a "funny but yet serious at the same time" rating. You'd get it. Indeed, such a device could well be used for that. And there are a couple SBCs out there that might meet the need.

        And of course, if you happen to know someone on the inside within the right department of your favorite law enforcement agency, they might know where they get theirs.

        For my own needs, I'm building something somewhat larger, intended to be a little more obvious. It will have a web cache proxy (probably squid) and a mail server or proxy. My intent is to make this function with NO direct data paths between the internet and the protected LAN whatsoever (not even originated from inside). This is clearly not a box for geeks to play with (at least not with this configuration), but it can be for geeks who are making a business to provide security consulting to small businesses that barely know enough to know they need someone to protect their network for them. And heaven knows we need to have more geeks controlling businesses than being controlled by businesses.

  • Now I'm sort of wondering if I can finally have a thin client Java box that isn't tied to a Solaris server (for no other reason than I can't afford an Ultra 5S just to have a couple internet terminals laying around). Well maybe.
    Has anyone actually hacked one of these toys and maybe used GTK+ FB on it? It seems like writing directly to the frame buffer would be more efficient than mucking around with X, especially on a small system with limited resources. I just want to run a lightweight Gecko based browser on something small and kinda cool looking.
    Oh yeah, for the MP3 player people flooding the thread, look into a NIC. It is fairly easy to stick whatever stuff you want onto the data disc which means ypclient and your favourite MP3 player. A couple of edits of the Boa config file and a CGI script and you can have a web based MP3 player sucking files off whatever box stores them. It seems like the easiest hack out of all of the boxes on the list.

  • 5.25" Embedded Systems (Score:2, Interesting)

    by eric434 ( 161022 )
    You know, I wonder if you could fit those 5 1/4" systems into a regular (but tall) computer case. Imagine, your own Beowulf cluster, under your desk... Seriously, though, it would come in handy for corporate server/low-U rackmount applications. Have all the cables/connections made inside the generic PC case, fill up the rest of the space with some network-storage (SnapIT type drives) hard drives, and you've got a server room in a tenth of the space. Of course, the servers in question would have to be DNS/DHCP/X/whatever that don't use large quantities of disk space (unless the disks are mounted via NFS, but then you pretty much need Gigabit Ethernet).
    • You're trying to waste money young Padawan. The 2,500$ model is a 400MHz G4 with 128 megs of RAM and a 10 GB drive. For less than half that you could pick up a Netra with the same specs. Granted a Netra is a traditional 19" rackmount chassis but unless space is REALLY confined you'd be wasting your money with a tower full of 5.25" systems. An 8 node Centricity will set you back almost 30 grand while an 8 node Netra set-up will set you back about a third of that. I'd rather have a high capacity SMP box for 28k$
      • What about the other one, the non-G4? I bet it's not that pricey... Then again, it has Gigabit Ethernet, so it's probably more pricey. N/M. Still, if space *is* at a premium (read: colocation/datacenter environment, where 1U is a couple hundred a month, you can pack at least three 5.25" embedded servers in the space of one (or two for 1/2U servers) And for things like DHCP, DNS, routing, NAT, maybe even Firewalling, where there's no need for a hard drive, these things are *perfect*.
        • These are still expensive for something that is just going to be used for DNS or NAT or some such. Thus i wouldn't exactly exclaim these things as perfect for mundane tasks like DHCP or DNS serving. A second hand Cisco box is *perfect* as a NAT or Firewall and if you're so concerned with a price a single 1U box can perform alot duties like DHCP and DNS. Besides these aren't exactly embeded systems per se. They've got alot of cool factor and could be really useful for some applications. I think their desktop render farm is a pretty cool one actually, something I think they're more suited to than webserving on the cheap.
  • I am glad to see Linux find it's niche market. It seems every other day I see a story about a device that will be using linux because of OS and it's stability. If linux can capture that market decicively then it's survival will be assured. At least in some form or another.

  • Embedded Linux (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HerrGlock ( 141750 ) on Saturday August 04, 2001 @07:40PM (#2161515) Homepage
    This is one place that can make a buck with Linux. Embedded stuff is required and not having to pay a tax per unit sold is preferable to what has been the way.

    So far it's been a bit painful, but an OS as a give away is going to be the way to go. Hardware and service all the way.

    DanH

  • Great list! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by JediTrainer ( 314273 )
    It looks like a great place to start looking, for sure. Because of this, I'm definitely going to be looking at all of these models, and it made the choices easier (esp. having the reviews linked in).

    My only wish, though, is to have an approximate PRICE listed so I can compare everything at once. And perhaps a chart of specs, comparing all the apples and oranges for me.
    • My only wish, though, is to have an approximate PRICE listed so I can compare everything at once. And perhaps a chart of specs, comparing all the apples and oranges for me.

      Agreed... a grid of specs would be great (for many things - looking for a hardware MP3 player and laptop would be easier). As it is, I don't see anything over 266 Mhz, which makes them all insufficient as DivX ;-) players (which, afaik, needs 350 Mhz+).

      Also, as someone who is looking to put mp3 storage in his car (plus a wireless network to nearby laptops), temperature tolerances would be nice.

      --
      Evan

      • Actually, the Npower Server [linuxdevices.com] comes with a 600MHz or 733MHz Intel XScale RISC CPU. That ought to be fast enough for ya, but I shudder to think of the cost. There's also the briQ [linuxdevices.com] with a PowerPC G3 or G4 processor. Although I don't know the PPC chips well enough to tell you the speed from the model number, it's probably a wee bit faster than 350MHz... ;) This one has a price tag, though...'bout $2,500 for starters. Kinda pricey for a DivX ;-) player... ;)

        DennyK
        • I should have rephrased that a bit - the DivX ;-) players that I've seen require x86 DLLs in order to run. I don't think there is a x86 box in this list that is above 266 Mhz.

          Although, the G3/G4 in a 5 1/4" drive might slot into a dashboard nicely for other uses. :)

          --
          Evan

          • For what it's worth, there are DivX :) players for MacOS--they've been hacked out of the Mac version of Windows Media player the same way that the x86 players were. One could probably adapt the libraries to run under Linux/PPC if one was interested enough.

  • Anyone have any realworld experience? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Chuck Flynn ( 265247 ) on Saturday August 04, 2001 @07:48PM (#2161541)
    It's nice to have a reference list, but unless I have some anecdotal evidence as well, I'm always reluctant to set out for uncharted territories and leave behind what's been tried and true.

    Does anyone have any realworld experience with these systems? Often, what looks good on paper turns out to be a complete waste of time and money because of some small inconvenience or incompatibility left unspecified in the specs.

    I'd love to hear what anyone has to say.
    • Funny I was thinking the same thing. The problem with these sorts of little boxes is they can be pretty fucking useless. If you've got an ethernet port or two you can turn it into a little server or number cruncher or some such (like the Centricity made out of briQs) or use it as a router. Other than something headless you're sort of SOL with these because they've got really limited interfaces which aren't included in the purchase price. Turning anything from this list into a little X term costs more than buying a full fledged PC. I could always use the pre-formed SBCs for robot brains though. I've been working on one that I can talk to with my Powerbook with an 802.11b card. A robot with a .plan, that's sort of scary.
    • Well, with which board?

      I work for MontaVista Software; Our primary business is providing (supporting, &c) a set of free software tools for doing cross-development for linux on a wide variety of interesting architectures. As such, we deal with a lot of these things (some off-the-shelf, others custom built). Some of them are good for demos. Some of them are good for Real World use. Some of them are good for nothing. If you're serious about doing an embedded project, there are plenty of folks (like us!) who work with these things on a daily basis and can help you out. While our subscriptions aren't free, if you're doing a serious project and don't have engineering manpower to spare, we (or another vendor in the same line of business) can help out with these issues.

      Now, as for some specifics... really, the list given on that page is very, very limited. The CerfCube is cute, and StrongARM is a well-supported target (though PowerPC is even more widely used, and thus well-supported). Most folks with larger projects will pick their own board and enclosure (or even do their own board design) or start with one of the many reference boards available. My personal favorites for demoability are ADS Graphics Client Plus and the Hitachi webpad (yup, I'm on the graphics team). Admittedly, the Webpad is a kinda' on the large side for an embedded system, but it's exceedingly sweet. If you just want to play with linux on small targets, the iPaq is another good place to start (and they're cool anyhow).

      If you're doing a project with video support, there are several other systems designed for settop use (with TV output built in); IBM makes some nifty PowerPC 405-based ones (sorry, no names off the top of my head). There are a whole lot of other boards made for networking tasks and whatnot... but frankly, those are a whole 'nother post.
  • I`m seeing linux in all sorts of devices everyday. One of these products could be just the thing for my mp3 car player project.Now if I could just find a way to manage the playing of mp3s while driving without dealing with keyboards and stuff.Any ideas?
    • Well, I know this post is kind of off topic, but, to answer your question..

      You can get remotes (just like TV or VCR remotes) for your computer. You just use the software to tell what each key does. And, of course, you could use your favorite mp3 player and use your lists and things (that you set up BEFORE you drive, so you don't wreck hassling with all that). I'm sure many of them work differently, but they're all pretty much the same idea. I would go and find a place to buy them, but.. you know, I can't do all the work :)
  • Is an SBC with NTSC outputs, plus Audio and Ethernet. It would make it alot easier to start up or maintain a homebrew TiVo project.....
    • Is an SBC with NTSC outputs, plus Audio and Ethernet. It would make it alot easier to start up or maintain a homebrew TiVo project.....

      What about this GCT-Allwell [gctglobal.com] system? You know, the one mentioned in the article [linuxdevices.com] posted for this story?

      Or were you really looking for just the board? If it were me I'd go for the whole system anyway, and scavenge the board if I had too. Only $299 for the whole unit makes it awfully tempting.
  • ...a Linux box dedicated for, say, nonlinear video editing? I know that there are NLVE apps for Linux out there, although I couldn't say how they shape up against Premiere (or Ulead MediaStudio Pro). Such things would include 1394 support and a 100GB hard drive, maybe even a flat-panel display...
  • Does anyone know any kind of premade linux box that could possible be used an mp3 player? Yes, I know it would probably be easier to just buy one, but i want to be able to put in vorbis support and other such stuff. So what I would probably be looking for is something with: Hard drive or flash or something i could store the files on Sound (no mp3 decoding chip, I plan on doing that in software) Some sort of display mechanism and at least 2-3 buttons A relatively small size (maybe about 4"x6"x.5") A reasonably fast processor (I'm not sure what is needed, but probably about 200mhz) And of course, the ability to run Linux :) A nice looking case is NOT a requirement :) If anyone has any ideas please post here or email me. Thanks a lot :) p.s. My email address in the profile is messed up... its "-ends-with-oo" not "-ends-w"
    • Someone else pointed out the MiniBook PC, which is also sold as the Capucino G1 [cappuccinopc.com]

      RedHat is an option, but I wonder how well everything works. And it's fairly expensive (about 1000USD), but you get lots of goodies in a very small package:

      6.2 x 5.8 x 1.8" x 2 lbs
      Dvd or cd drive
      10/100 RJ45 Ethernet
      irDA port
      AV/SVideo/VGA(1280x1024x24bit) video out
      Stereo out, microphone in, internal speaker
      Up to 256M ram
      MPeg2 decoder w/motion compensation
      2 USB, 1 serial, 1 parallel, ps2/ mouse & keyb
      V.90 modem (winmodem?)
      PIII to 1GHz, Cel @ 700Mhz
      10-30G HD

      Amazing specs. Anyone have any linux experience with this thing?
    • Another possibility for the near future would be something built on Via's ITX form factor. Their reference board (Vt6009) looks perfect for these kinds of application, and real products should be on the cheap side. Built for fanless operation (except for the power supply), it consumes max 6w with the via C3 (cyrix's) processor, making it a option to leave on all of the time as an appliance. Linux support of course is iffy at this point, but it looks like a promising basis for a hackable multimedia hub.

      Feature highlights: 1394, usb, dvd motion hw, trident blade 3d, audio i/o, video out, microphone in, socket 370, 1 pci, 1 comm slot, 2 ata 100, ps/2 mouse,keyboard. Size should be something like 10x3x8 inches.

      Slap a video/radio tuner in the pci slot, and ethernet or wireless in the comm slot, tack on some powered speakers, and replace your tivo, mp3 jukebox, dvd player, and stereo. Not the mention the possiblities for home surveillance, video intercoms, video editing, and other fun stuff.

    • Check out cajun.sourceforge.net. Cajun == Car Audio Jukebox using Unix

      The site is actually just for some perl software that allows you to remote control a linux pc-based mp3 player. The key is that the site includes plans for assembling a small LCD text panel with buttons on the sides, all powered off the pc's serial port. Very cool stuff, and you'll find endless links to hardware, and hundreds of pictures, particularly if you keep following the MP3 Car ring.

      Building one of these was supposed to be my summer project, but I gave myself too many of those, it seems..

      Enjoy!
    • I dunno but I would like one too. I'd like to build (or buy, if it exists) something like this:

      - a simple box with a DVD/CD player, small as possible (bookshelf size)
      - can rip and encode CDs and DVDs
      - can play CDs and DVDs directly
      - huge hard drive (of course).
      - audio and video outputs
      - jukebox functionality for mp3s (divx'd videos too, but not as important)
      - ethernet or wireless network.
      - remote control
      - web interface for jukebox management
      - hackable if premade.
      - no fan, or at least a VERY quiet one.
  • Does anyone know any kind of premade linux box that could possible be used an mp3 player? Yes, I know it would probably be easier to just buy one, but i want to be able to put in vorbis support and other such stuff. So what I would probably be looking for is something with:

    Hard drive or flash or something i could store the files on

    Sound (no mp3 decoding chip, I plan on doing that in software)

    Some sort of display mechanism and at least 2-3 buttons

    A relatively small size (maybe about 4"x6"x.5")

    A reasonably fast processor (I'm not sure what is needed, but probably about 200mhz)

    And of course, the ability to run Linux :)

    A nice looking case is NOT a requirement :)

    If anyone has any ideas please post here or email me.

    Thanks a lot :)

    p.s. My email address in the profile is messed up... its "-ends-with-oo" not "-ends-w"
    • You wouldn't even neeed 200mhz. I have a p90 I use for mining p2p that runs win98 and Morpheus - even under that crufty load, it plays mp3s without skipping. Sort of.

      An optimized linux miniboard boxed with a standard laptop IDE drive and an LCD display from those black&white Nuts & Volts [nutsvolts.com] ads and a couple of buttons would be a pretty hip guerilla rio. I would opt for the optional duct tape trimming.

    • An iPAQ? (Score:3, Informative)

      by marm ( 144733 )

      Does everything you require, plus a whole bunch more, and it's portable.

      Plus it has a sexy case :)

      It's perhaps not the cheapest option, but then, you do get a free, very powerful PDA thrown in with your MP3/Vorbis player...

  • This is a very good start. As with every great company, you start little and work your way up. Marketing and word of mouth are what will bring people to your company. Be Os should pay head to this advice.

  • This is all very cool but... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Davoid ( 5734 ) on Saturday August 04, 2001 @08:54PM (#2161683) Journal
    has anyone tried to purchase one of these units? I would like to build a nice little firewall box or something... so where can I get one of these little gems? Of the ones that DO have any sort of place you can buy them they are waaay overpriced. I mean the darn PPC bRIQ (or whatever it is called) is $2,500!! I can get an iBook for almost half that complete with CD, monitor and keyboard.

    It is all very well that these devices seem to be available but if they aren't easy to get or are priced prohibitively... what is the point?

  • IPSEC VPN (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gengee ( 124713 ) <gengis@hawaii.rr.com> on Saturday August 04, 2001 @09:04PM (#2161699)
    At work, we've been searching for a product that we can use as an IPSEC-enabled router.

    So far, we've just been giving out PC's with FreeS/WAN. But this gets a little bit expensive, so we've been trying to find an embedded solution. Any such product would have to meet the following requirements:

    * Cheap
    * Small
    * Reasonably powerful (At least 200MHz for x86 processors)
    * And hopefully, sleek looking.

    LinuxDevices [linuxdevices.com] Mentions a product called the STBMX1030 [linuxdevices.com], which meets all of these requirements, and much much more. But it seems as though the company that makes them, Allwell [allwell.com.tw], has stopped making them. Anyone know of anything else that fits the bill?
    • "LinuxDevices Mentions a product called the STBMX1030, which meets all of these requirements, and much much more. But it seems as though the company that makes them, Allwell, has stopped making them."

      Really? I went to http://www.gctglobal.com/ and sent mail to them, asking for a price on a sample STB1030N. Got a quick response with a price, said "I want it", and have one due to be delivered COD tomorrow...

      But I do notice that GCT-Allwell's website has changed slightly in the last couple days, so maybe some changes are afoot...

      Ed

    • Re:IPSEC VPN (Score:3, Informative)

      by s390 ( 33540 )
      ECS makes a micro-ATX MB - K7S5A, I think - with an onboard NIC (and audio) and 2 PCI slots. You can find it on pricewatch by clicking on Motherboards and SIS 735 - $66. Add a little DDRAM (64MB should be plenty), another NIC, and a cheap IDE disk, put it in some small case, load Linux and set up the Bastille firewall (which does IPsec VPN) and you've got a fairly cheap VPN firewall.

      And... your users can load the HD with MP3s and listen to music of their choice, from their little DSL/Cable gateway!

      OTOH, maybe you can find a NetWinder on Ebay....
    • What made you think that the STBMX1030's are no longer being manufactured? I checked the company site you posted a link too, and I couldn't find any comments about that (did I just miss it?).

      Either way, instead of that AllWell site in Taiwan, try checking out the GCTGlobal site [gctglobal.com] that's posted in the original LinuxDevices article.

    • Try the net4501, $250 or so, three ethernet ports, compact flash, etc.

      http://www.soekris.com/net4501.htm [soekris.com]

  • There's an old saying... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lavaforge ( 245529 ) on Saturday August 04, 2001 @09:12PM (#2161712)
    That says: "When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail."

    While I'm still learning about design, I sometimes question the effectiveness of trying to put linux onto anything you can get your hands on.

    Wouldn't it be more effective to for some of these smaller devices to move more of their functionality to a hardware level? This is not a rhetorical question. I actually would like to know...

    • It really depends on the application -- most of the applications that these devices are being developed are more effective with a linux environment.
    • in Jurassic Park They're too busy trying to figure if they could to stop and think if they SHOULD. Moving functionality to hardware shouldn't make a practical difference. It's more of a keeping up with the industry thing. If you spend sooooo much time in making specific chips for ever app. without some flexible software level, (alot of companies did(still do?) this for a while)then your competition literally beats you to market. Eventually more things get put in to hardware like you want as they become affordible.
    • Implementing functionality at the hardware level makes less and less sense as general-purpose processing hardware becomes cheaper and more powerful. For example, it has become cost-effective to put an intelligent chip (e.g. the PIC microcontroller and its ilk) in places where previously, only specialized circuitry was used. The result is typically more flexible - because it can easily be reprogrammed - and more powerful, because it can do "intelligent" things that more dedicated hardware often can't, like connect to the Internet or display data on an LCD.

      The same kind of logic applies to many embedded Linux applications. Rather than spend resources designing custom hardware and custom software, it makes sense to use an off-the-shelf and well-understood hardware platform, along with an OS which comes with source, which allows it to be customized and stripped down as small as you need it, to the point where it can fit on a floppy or even a watch.

      Instead of wasting time reinventing the wheel, smart designers will choose and customize components that already do most of what they want, which frees up resources to focus on the specific functionality they need, rather than on features that don't have much to do with the application, like memory management and task scheduling.

      On some technical level, it might be appealing to have a machine that's been designed from the ground up to do one function, and only one function, with nothing extraneous. But in practice, this tends to be expensive, and the end result is often less flexible.

  • The list is fine as far as it goes, but all of it refers to commercial hardware. Some of us are working on easily customized reference designs for linux based controllers and micro systems.

    At http://www.openh.org/ there are several ongoing linux controller projects released under free licenses.

    At http://freeio.org/ we are developing and posting frequent updates to linux based controllers based on the ColdFire processor, released under GPL. The conceprt is free hardware designs for the free software community.

    For those interested in rolling their own systems, or better yet contributing to free hardware designs and porting / building drivers, these are pretty good opportunities.

  • ARGH!!!! 3D + TV-Out: Impossible under Linux? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Saturday August 04, 2001 @09:41PM (#2161754) Homepage
    No small appliances include 3D hardware, good sound, and TV-out. Because of that, setting up a multimedia device requires adding additional cards. For sound, there are many choices. For video, there are no choices that are compatable with Linux and support both;

    1. I. 3D (good, current-generation)

    2. II. TV-out (RCA and/or S-video)

    That's why you see tech sites talking about how to make your own TIVO-style device, or how to make a traveling MP3 jukebox, but none that mention 3D games. Only Nokia's planned Media Terminal [nokia.com] is supposed to have both, and adding a VGA-to-RCA converter isn't cheap.

    Think that Nvidia, ATI, or Matrox have this fixed? Nope.

    At first glance, most of the /. minions out there will probably say "big deal". Well, smarty pants, I dare you. I dare all of you all. Find such a card. After much searching, it turns out that you can have either 3D or TV-out, but not both.

    Any GeForce, Radeon, or G400 can pump out great 3D. Some -- but not all -- can be tweaked to output video to a standard TV using the Linux frame buffer...but in the process, you loose all 3D hardware acceleration.

    Yow. Scratch 3D.

    Enable 3D, and the TV-out ports aren't supported.

    As for projects that are actively attempting to address the TV-out problem, they do exist. Sourceforge [sourceforge.net] hosts a few, and Freshmeat [freshmeat.net] has pointers to a few more. None have it licked, though. Most TV-out ports have some propriatory muck that makes supporting them difficult at best. If we're lucky, one of these companies will release a Macrovision-encrusted, binary-only, x86, version sometime in the next couple years.

    How depressing...what was the story about the Zerox printer driver? How is it that 20+ years later, something so trivial is still a sticking point.

    • go check out nvidia's cards, as new as you want. Find a card that has a RCA/svideo out (option on all models). Now go grab nvidia's drivers, and read the TWINVIEW readme. It has directions for getting the TV out and the VGA out both seen by X, and the ability to run each display independant of the other.
      • go check out nvidia's cards, as new as you want. Find a card that has a RCA/svideo out (option on all models). Now go grab nvidia's drivers, and read the TWINVIEW readme. It has directions for getting the TV out and the VGA out both seen by X, and the ability to run each display independant of the other.

        Been there. The TWINVIEW_README file has no mention of RCA, TV, or S-video. Like Yetti stories, there are comments about support Real Soon Now, and some who say specific GeForce cards could do it...but no eyewitness accounts.

        Another downside is that different Geforce cards use different chipsets to program the TV-out. Here are a couple comments on this (grabbed from Usenet via. a groups.google.com search);

        1. comp.os.linux.hardware:
        2. "try to set up twinview according to the READMEs and set up a TV friendly ( NTSC or PAL compatible ) resolution on the second head (*) and then "somehow" program the video encoder on the gfx card to turn on the TV out. Some GF2MX cards use the bt869 encoder, which is documented and even has a driver ( in the lm_sensors package , search on google.com ), I don't know what yours has."

        ...or this...

        1. comp.windows.x.i386unix:
        2. Hi, is there anybody around who has a working Geforce 2 MX Twinview AGP-card in dualhead mode under Linux (not nvidia's own driver built-in twinview, but two different screens with two independent desktops)?

          I can't get it working. Twinview works fine, but because the windowmanager is not able to detect 2 screens, windows are generally opened across both screens. I'm tired of moving every window to its right place. So I want two sessions on two independent desktops (kde 2.1.1). Is it possible?

        Unfortunately, no followups on either thread. An extensive search showed more of the same; lots of second-hand sightings, but no Yetti.

        ATI cards -- also promising -- come up short as well. The TV-out hardware hasn't changed on these cards in years, yet nobody can figure out how to enable it...and ATI isn't helping. The Gatos project [linuxvideo.org] has most of ATI's special video features working but still no video out.

        One ray of hope comes from the comments of Dalinian (previous message) who seems to have peppy XMMS visual plugins. That's promising. Yet, Dalinian doesn't play 3D games, so couldn't confirm -- yet! (hope!) -- that 3D is actually enabled or that the card is simply faster with the new drivers.

        • i went back and re-read the TWINVIEW_README, and its been updated since i last read it. The current one seems to only find at creating a large virtual screen with the dual heads, but not driving them seperatly for 2 screens as i had thought. The older one was more vague in its wording, and thats prob where i got the idea.
    • Okay, I'm not that sure about this. But I think my Elsa Gladiac with the Geforce MX400 does 3D and TV at the same time. I am not sure because I don't really play 3D games, but at least a few 3D xmms plugins got significantly faster after I installed the card and recompiled them (without changing the cpu, which is a 333 MHz P2). And the card drivers at least claim to be "NVIDIA_GLX".
      • Excellent! We might have a winner. If you could run gears on it, from Xscreensaver, I'd appreciate it. What does...

        1. gears -fps

        ...report at 640x480 and 800x600?

        Bonus question: :) Does the card have the ability to scale larger screens down using the aa features of the GeForce? (Ex. Simultanious display of a 1024x768 desktop on both TV and monitor. Same image appears on both, but the TV is of course not nearly as crisp.)

        • Anyone know why gear runs from the command line, but SIGSEGVs when run from xscreensaver? I want to run it badly.

          I've an Elsa nVidia geForce2 <guaranteed to have screwed up the FunnyCaPs>, and am running a more-or-less factory RedHat 7.0 (i.e. with security enhancements, some of my own devious rolling), using the nVidia drivers.

          • Using xscreensaver v.3.33, it works fine on a Voodoo3 2000. I've heard that the GeForce cards are touchy, and either up/downgrading drivers tends to work around some of these issues.

            If that fails, maybe you are running 2 different versions of gears? Try using locate & which to determine what you have, and manually try both to see if you can duplicate the hang. Ex;

            1. locate gears

              (list of files named 'gears' appears)

              which gears

              (the program named 'gears' that will be executed when you don't specify a path)

              /usr/local/bin/gears

              /usr/X11R6/lib/xscreensaver/gears

              (two possible locations for gears found from using locate)

        • gears -fps -root gives me about 45 frames per second at both 640x480 and 800x600. I don't know about the screen scaling features of the card.
          • Thanks!

            It doesn't look like TV-out is getting full use of the 3D hardware. For reference, the Voodoo3 2000 I'm using right now (no TV-out) can do ~40 fps in hardware with a PII 466. The Voodoo3 is a 16-bit color depth card with AGP 1x support. The Geforce you have is probably on a much faster machine and uses AGP 2x or 4x.

            • Nope, it's on a slower machine. :-) It's a 333 MHz P2, and it's my media machine. The only reason why I have the Geforce in it is that it's the only card I could get with TV support in Xfree.
              • Nope, it's on a slower machine.

                Damn. Now I'm really puzzled. A GeForce, even on a slower machine, should get over 45fps. Yet, with 3D disabled, the Voodoo3 on the PII ~466 here can do only ~20.

                Maybe I'll pick up the same model card that you have just to figure it out. If it doesn't work for games, I'll eat the restocking fee and hunt for something else.

                • If you want one, it's the Elsa Gladiac 511 TV-OUT with 64 megs of memory, with the Geforce 2 MX 400 and with S-Video output (check out the Elsa site [elsa.com] for the European version that I've got if you're European; I don't know if the US etc. versions of the card are any different, though).
                  • A few places do sell the 511-TV in the US. After digging some more, I found that there is TV out support for the GeForce cards, and that it looks that 3D is not impacted. Maybe gears isn't a very good benchmark?

                    Along those lines, I found another limit; normally, the TV out supports 640x480 or 800x600. If the GeForce card has a Conexant CX25871 (aka "BT871") TV signal decoder, it can also output 1024x768 to the TV.

                    This means that if the default desktop is 1024x768, then switching to a TV display will show the same desktop. Since TV (PAL or NTSC) can't handle 1024x768, the signal they actually get will be modified; text won't be as clear, other artifacts of TV display will appear (fuzzy, lower color accuracy), but otherwise will display the full image witout scrolling.

                    I've fired off a few emails to different manufacturers, asking them what chip they use, but so far...no responses.

                    Q. Does the card have RCA & S-video outs?

                    Q. Do you have any idea what your card uses?^

                    ^. Issuing the command...

                    1. cat /var/log/messages | grep -i "tv encoder"

                    ...should return something like "NVIDIA(0): TV Encoder detected as BT871"

    • I really have only one thing to say:

      3dfx Voodoo3 3500TV.

      Support for 3D is pretty obvious, and open source. Support for the TV-out (and in) is HERE [sourceforge.net], and the sourceforge project page is HERE [sourceforge.net]. The code is pretty hairy, but it works. Not only that, but the TV out works at the same time as the 3D. I've seen it myself on my box. Only one problem - good luck finding one of these cards, considering that poor 3dfx is defunkt.

    • Hey,

      For video, there are no choices that are compatable with Linux and support both;

      I. 3D (good, current-generation)

      II. TV-out (RCA and/or S-video)

      You could try a VGA to TV converter [google.com]. The Guillemot VGA-to-TV
      Converter Deluxe-2 is good, according to this article [digit-life.com]. And only $120.

      It might be worth your taking a look. You should be able to get 3D through it, because it just deals with the VGA output.

      Michael
    • I think Runix, the Linux for the Sony Playstation 2, was released recently. The X Box should be out before Christmas, and I'd think Linux will be ported to that soon as well.

      There are also dozens of VGA-to-NTSC converters, some of them listed here [www.hut.fi].
      • I think Runix, the Linux for the Sony Playstation 2, was released recently. The X Box should be out before Christmas, and I'd think Linux will be ported to that soon as well.

        Agreed. Yet, there are so many downsides to either box that it's hard to list them all. Off the top of my head, both are either costly (needs developer kit), unavailable (unreleased, released in Japan to a limited audience), can't run 3D commercial Linux games (Tribes), and for what you get are costly+underpowered+inflexible.

        There are also dozens of VGA-to-NTSC converters, some of them listed here.

        Not cheap (an old complaint mentioned in the original message). Why spend usd$100+ for a VGA-to-RCA converter, if the video card already has S-video out?

  • Not small enough (Score:3, Funny)

    by Papa Legba ( 192550 ) on Saturday August 04, 2001 @10:09PM (#2161797)
    I am looking for a very tiny linux based system with wireless internet so that I can hook it to that new camera in a pill and do live video confrencing from the inside of my large intestine. Let people know what I REALLY think of their ideas.
    The best part would be the puns that would naturally form from this system, I leave you to figure them out yourself...

    "Better hurry up with your briefing, I had taco bell for lunch and the bottom of the toilet bowl gets poor recpetion..."

  • It's a Celeron/P3 based computer [newegg.com] about the size of a largish portable CD player. $445 in barebones form with CD drive (add your own memory, HD, and CPU), $100 more with a DVD drive. To see pictures, click the "See it" link. There are about 5 exterior and interior pics that you reach through the "next image" buttons.
  • This cute little number [soekris.com] has a 486-133 class CPU, three Ethernet ports (10/100), up to 64MB SDRAM and a slot for a CF card that looks like an IDE disk.

    It's being used in the emBSD [embsd.org] (aka embedded OpenBSD) project as a great firewall box.

    • If that was real IDE it might be interesting. I'm basically looking for what will essentially be a very small system. But I do want dual ethernet (it has) and IDE (maybe not), all in a nice (this isn't) case with space for a regular IDE drive (doubtful) and well ventilationed (doesn't look like it).

  • Now, all you gotta do is put linux on one of those camera pills, and you'll have the smallest linux system in the world!

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