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Linux Software

Diskless Linux Kiosks 60

Posted by michael from the no-fscking-allowed dept.
joestump98 writes: "JWZ (of Netscape and Mozilla fame) has put up an extremely interesting article about using ThinkNic diskless workstations as internet kiosks at his new club, DNA Lounge. Very cool stuff!"
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Diskless Linux Kiosks More

Diskless Linux Kiosks

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  • Re:Coulda tried... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You could do the same with DOS (MS,Open,PC) just have em RPL off the central server. Simple to set up (gen a bootdisk one time), simple to administrate (everything is on the server), and they'd be as are cheap as dirt.

  • Re:Coulda tried... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Where I go to school [umn.edu], there are a bunch of iMac kiosks around campus. They are obviously not running OS X, because they seem to be very unstable machines. Most of the time when I try to use one, I find that the machine's open because it's unusable. Still, I imagine they could just hook up some sort of USB watchdog timer, causing the system to reboot when it dies..

  • ssh from a nightclub? PUH-LEEZE (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ok, anyone stop to think about the POINT of having internet terminals at a nightclub?!? Oh, yeah, in between this trance/jungle set, im going to take a quick hop over to the internet terminal and ssh to my home machine to see if my cron jobs ran.

    Sheesh.

  • Re:ssh from a nightclub? PUH-LEEZE (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    pr0n
  • 1300 branches is a lot of terminals - well, for IBM, it's probably an average account, but regardless:

    Surely your regional IBM office would entertain the idea of producing a version of the Netstation that had a small (4 gig?) disk in it, to put /swap on?

    Seems to me that this is the advantage of open-source based systems like this. If the code for the Netstation were available, perhaps you'd be able to open those terminals up, add a laptop drive, and install your own init scripts that set up /swap for you ... solving your problem.

  • Errr... well yeah. That's pretty much exactly what I did :-).
  • NFS version Linux 2.4.4 SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS. They removed all the local caching and everything else in the name of security so that Linux NFS is now slower than a 28.8 modem for anything but mp3 storage. Thank God the NFS hackers haven't decided to fix XFree86. Tommorrow: why users of IDE under 2.4.4 experience premature death.
  • but it's been up for months. I remember reading it ages ago when he was still building the DNA Lounge.

    Oh wait... he still is building the DNA Lounge. Good to see progress [dnalounge.com] being made. ;-)

    Gerv
  • I think things like these could be a great idea for places like public schools and libraries.

    Indeed. This summer, I'm working for AmeriCorps [americorps.gov] and the Oakland Public Schools [k12.ca.us] and one of the things we're doing is installing these NICs into all of the elementary schools. The ones we're putting in are slightly different, as they have all their system software one a CD-ROM rather than loading it by NFS, but they're otherwise the same thing. They're pretty nifty -- they can browse the web (Netscape 4.7), do word processing (AbiWord) storing files on a central server by Samba, and even have a few games. They're being donated by Oracle, but even if the school district were to buy them, they'd be able to get a lot more NICs at $200 than PCs at $1000, and the NICs do nearly everything that most people would want to do with a computer.
    --
    // mlc, user 16290

  • This could be setup as a screensaver, perhaps it would work as an extension of XScreenSaver,

    Good idea... maybe this guy can get in touch with the author of XScreenSaver and pitch the idea.

    For those who don't know, JWZ also wrote XEmacs back when RMS was dragging his feet about the interface port, XScreenSaver, the original (good) mail system for Netscape, and is in general a fairly good example of a cyberpunk flavored real-world hacker, complete with shitkicker boots and 'objectionable' hair colors. Once it's open, I'm damn well going to go to the DNA lounge to see what he's put together, despite the fact that I live on the other side of the country.

    --
    Evan

  • Sorry guys and gals, this one has been done. Licensed bar, diskless terminals, flat screens, running Linux from desktop to server. And it was done more than a year ago. And it was done in Guelph, Ontario. When we built it, we used Celeron 533 machines and PXE booting, the workstations were custom designed and hid the presence of the computer. Basic system design was the same as listed in the article, however, we used logins and allowed people to have access to their desktop from elsewhere (using VNC) as well. Email the obvious for details.
  • The DNA Lounge has been around for at least
    ten years. It is only new to JWZ.

    And why is this a news story? Because it
    has the word ``Linux'' in it?
  • the story obviously belongs on /. because:

    - JWZ bought the club so it's going to be cool and technical and have little in common with the old DNA lounge.
    - linux terminals are used
    - there is a detailed, technical description of how they are made
    - the article in question is several months old
    - CowboyNeal [uh, time to leave the basement...]

    also, as a reminder, having the word "Linux" in it is a perfectly good reason to post something on /.
    if you don't like it, look for real news on the Onion [theonion.com] or bbspot [bbspot.com] (both recommended).

    laters,
    nik
  • Uhh... so what's your point exactly? :)

    Actually, for better or worse, I've grown quite accustomed to having an internet connection available anywhere I go so I can check on my house, etc. Perhaps the general public hasn't completely borgified themselves yet, but with the current proliferation of cell phones, I doubt it will be too many years before most people will find it difficult to NOT have an internet connection nearby SOMEWHERE.

    -Restil
  • From what I read, the flash is only 4mb...and that's hardly enough for the full os...

    Of course, if you could add a floppy you could probably just add a harddrive or soemthing of that sort. but then, that kills the whole boot in 5 second thing.
  • Am I the only one disgusted by this? of all the wonderful things JWZ has done for my geek quality of life, all you can come up with is Netscape? Frankly, I'm busily trying to forget that he was ever involved in Netscape.

    XEmacs (well, technically, Lucid Emacs), BBDB, xscreensaver, xkeycaps, xdaliclock, his PostScript audio cassette labeler, and a host of other stuff...and you picked Netscape.

    If anything, his fame came from emacs, not netscape.

    IMHO
  • The site at http://www.hut.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/vga2tv / [www.hut.fi] also has info on VGA -> TV conversion.


    - - - - -
  • You might be able to use a TV as the "monitor" -- see here [www.sput.nl] for instructions. Requires TV with RGB SCART input. Gamers may already know what SCART is, but for the rest of you, it means "Syndicat des Constructeurs d'Appareils Radiorécepteurs et Téléviseurs." SCART [www.hut.fi] is for connecting dissimilar A/V systems together. It's popular in Europe where they have those funny Pal systems :) Here [knoware.nl] is a little info. And here [video-demystified.com] is some more.

    - - - - -

  • Public Use in Public Facilities? (Score:3)

    by cansecofan22 ( 62618 ) on Saturday May 26, 2001 @05:29AM (#196974) Homepage
    I think things like these could be a great idea for places like public schools and libraries. These places spend a fortune on computers when they could get some of these and maybe someone could tweak the CD to include some sort of office suite (K-Office, Open Office, etc.) and you would have all any student would need for basic internet use and have the tools to also write papers for classes. I know this would not work for higher end apps such as graphics manipulation and the sort but it could save a lot of public $$.

  • Re:Paris (Score:1)

    by hub ( 78021 )
    These are cyberdeck. They are made by a Lyon-based company (Lyon is one of the largest city in France). See http://www.CyberDeck.net/ [cyberdeck.net]. There are several subway station in Paris that have this kind on Internet Kiosks. I never tried them because there is still to much people waiting to use it, but when I have seen one out of order, I did recognize XFree error messages. And they provide remote administration of the kiosks.

    They also provided free e-mail service, but they are now moving to MSN Hotmail (ick !!!).

  • where can you get 15" lcd's for $350? Lowest prices on pricewatch are around that, but those are for ultra-generic's sold by vendor's I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole...

  • Re:Coulda tried... (Score:3)

    by krmt ( 91422 ) <.moc.oohay. .ta. .erehmrfereht.> on Saturday May 26, 2001 @09:02PM (#196977) Homepage
    I do this at work, although they're not diskless iMacs they do have preferences and such stored centrally. While it seems like a great solution it's really not because of the whole netboot thing. For some inexplicable reason, the iMacs have to constantly hit the network even for simple things like loading a webpage. We have a total of only four iMacs connected to the server, and not even stressing it much, but even browsing the internet slows the things to such a crawl that I get constant complaints about iMac speed. Open up a second or third browser window and the things become almost unusable.

    Mac OSX isn't supported yet for netbooting or Macintosh Manager, so you can't get a modern OS running these things even though it would solve a lot (if not all) of the problems, although later in the year they should be there. But as it stands now, this is a really bad idea that I don't recommend it to anyone simply because it'll just piss off the users and make them hate Macs more. It's so bad that we're moving over to NFS for remote file access (also need to give PC's equal access via Samba) and doing all the multi-user stuff locally.

    "I may not have morals, but I have standards."
  • This is the same question I was going to ask. I use VNC to connect to my server from windows all the time. It wouldn't be that hard to make dumb kiosks that VNC in. You can make a VNC boot disk, so putting that image in ROM would be a next step.

    In fact, one of the million "business plans that I'll never get around to doing" I have is the same thing as Juno only instead of PCs, using those 386-on-a-chips, a modem and a VNC rom image to connect to a central server. That way no one can disable the advertisements, you can upgrade software with a breeze, the units themselves would be less than $100 to manufacture.

    The one thing I can see as a problem is that you can't have sound, which is important for kiosks, but not for free internet access.

  • Bad Pun (Score:3)

    by zpengo ( 99887 ) on Saturday May 26, 2001 @05:34AM (#196979) Homepage
    If their diskless, doesn't that make them Unix?

    (read it a few times before modding it down).

  • Re:Will everyone know how to use them? (Score:3)

    by ukyoCE ( 106879 ) on Saturday May 26, 2001 @05:18AM (#196981) Journal
    Its just for using netscape for crying out loud!
    Here's directions for it: double-click netscape. use netscape's common interface.

    If they can't figure that out then they haven't been using a computer before anyway.

    obviously an internet kiosk is going to have some simple icons and such for the windows users to do.
  • For those of us who don't care about brand names, the ultra generics will work just fine. But if you look on shopping.yahoo.com they have a Gateway 15" for 395, a Xenon for 400. So it is possible to get better name brands for cheaper than the 475 they wanted for a 12.1".
  • The NIC price is decent, $199. However, I thought their monitor prices were a bit high. I can easily get a 15" monitor for under $100 and they're charging $130. I can also get a 15" TFT LCD display for around $350 instead a 12.1" for $475. Granted they do offer a small discount if you buy the NIC and monitor together, but not enough. So I would suggest going elsewhere for the monitor. But it would be pretty cool to put in my kitchen as a nice recipie database :).
  • I said about 350, the cheapest one I've actually found was 369 here [gogocity.com]. But there were several on pricewatch.com [pricewatch.com] that were around 350.
  • There was also this one here [monitoronsale.com] for 355

    There was another one for 355, but I can't seem to find the link for specifics, the main display was here [yahoo.com].
  • It looks like the just boot off of the CD, so how hard would it be to burn a CD with Linux that used NFS mounts and X to turn this into a real X terminal or even something else. This seems like a pretty easy hack to make it do whatever you want...

    Derek

  • Indeed it would. I'm working on a community project in Sydney, Australia [cat.org.au] to do (among other things), just that using recycled hardware.

    Couldn't resist the chance to shamelessly promote it. Anybody in Sydney, check it out. It's going to be a major, major learning curve for me, so I need all the help I can get.

  • With VNC, the app runs on another machine that could be centrally maintained, while the kiosk would be pre-tuned for running the VNC environment. Sure, it puts heavy demands on the initial network config but it should work without having to upgrade the kiosks when the apps change. (But, what do I know?)
  • Here's a quick guide to booting into X using SuperRescue;

    1. Reboot/start system with CD in drive.

    2. At the first prompt, type in

    1. multi

    and press enter. The system will boot to a login prompt with multi-user support.

    3. Login as root, by typing

    1. root

    and pressing enter TWICE; SuperRescue does not use passwords.

    4. Enter runlevel 5 (X with multi-user support);

    1. /sbin/init 5

    5. At this point, the system will boot and check for new hardware. For now, ignore the prompts and allow the hardware screens to time out.

    6. After boot, the system will check the video card and fail multiple times. This is normal. In about a minute, the login prompt will appear. Since there was no monitor configuration the screen might be slightly distorted. If this is too much of a problem, you can logout/reboot/restart and try answering the hardware configuration questions mentioned earlier.

    7. Login as user (no password). The default desktop is KDE. If you want Gnome, select it from the Session Type menu before hitting the Go! button.

  • SuperRescue can be used as the basis for a diskless kiosk.

    Dumb me, thinking that would a bit obvious, gets dinged _twice_ for being 'offtopic'. What's up with that?

  • How easy is it to modify this "NIC" ? I'm thinking that as a transition machine, it would be nice to add a floppy drive, and more importantly, put the entire OS (including Netscape) on the flash card. I know this will add to the cost, but a terminal like this which will boot up in 5 seconds (with the OS on the CF card) would make it more like a true appliance. And the CD could be used as an audio CD player.
  • From what I read, the flash is only 4mb...and that's hardly enough for the full os...
    Of course, you would have to use a 32MB flash card for the full distro. But freeing up the CD would make it more attractive to people (not to mention the 5sec bootup!).
    But a floppy would make it really handy; face it, floppies are still the preferred medium of data transport and cheap as hell.
  • Only reason it's called NIC is beacuse Ellison is still nuts over the name (and logo) of his N|C (Network Computer) projects in the late 90's.
  • If you ever get to visit Antwerp, which is further up north (actually it`s a bit above Brussels, which is a little more above Paris), you`ll notice the same kind of kiosks, but they are running on WindowsNT. Can you guess how I got to discover that it was windows ? ;)

  • MacOS X Server, and a a buttload of iMacs that NetBoot from the central server....

    Simple to set up, simple to administrate, and iMacs are cheap as dirt.
  • This could be setup as a screensaver, perhaps it would work as an extension of XScreenSaver, but there would have to be such a mechanism

    I was giving this problem (with restarting just netscape, not the entire system) about a year ago to figure out after the Sun Microsystems engineers who where originally setting up our system said it was impossible to do. Enter the beautiful world of open source: I found a program which is basically a screensaver launcher that monitors the X server for idle time, and after a user specified period of time, launches a user specified program. Just set it to launch a shell script with whatever you want to do and you are set. The program is called xautolock and can be found here [freshmeat.net]

  • Re:Will everyone know how to use them? (Score:5)

    by servoled ( 174239 ) on Saturday May 26, 2001 @06:27AM (#196998)
    I am in charge of a SunRay system for a hotel / conference center. We have a total of 120 SunRay systems which are broken up into ~100 guest rooms and 15 public kiosks plus some for me to play around with :). I have almost no complaints about the interface, which just consists of cde with one button, netscape. And since there is some code running to bring netscape up if it crashes, or is closed, most people don't even need to use that button. We give the guests access to some kde games by using a perl script and a web page. The guest is presented with a short description of the games, and if they would like to play one they click on a link. Pretty straightforward.

    The moral is that it doesn't matter what it is running behind the scenes as long as the interface they are presented with is good. If you plan to drop them into a vanilla kde, gnome, window maker, etc.. desktop, then people will be confused. But, people don't need all that stuff on a kiosk, they don't care if you do have a phases of the moon program, or a utility to tell them how the system resources are doing. Just set them up with the bare essentials, which in my experience is netscape and a web based email client and a short explanation of how to use it. (I have found imp (www.horde.org/imp [horde.org]) is an excellent choice. It supports pop3 and imap and can be set up with a stock list of email servers or let the guest enter their own. Make sure to tell them that this is not a supported feature, and if they don't know how to get to their email, then they should contact their technical support, not yours.)
  • NBD (Network Block Device) works fine for me. Any filesystem will run over that and remote filesystems are kept in "container-files" instead of being mounted into server filespace. Since the network block device is used just like a local block device, all normal caching applies. It was intended for mirroring to a failover server via RAID, but booting diskless is also a nice application.
  • When I visiting Paris some weeks ago, one of the points I visited was "La Grande Arche". They had (free) internet kiosks with touchscreens. Now, one thing was clear after using it 5 seconds: it was no Redmond OS. I'm not sure if it was Linux, but they used Mozilla (slighly modified or skinned I'd say). It worked quite well except the touchscreens were actually imprecise but that could be a hardware issue. I'm not sure why, but X restarted about every 10 minutes: might be to force people not to use it too long. Well, I could check my mail for free, so it was usefull ;-)
    No clue if they had a disk or not, I guess they were dumb clients mounted on NFS...
  • Thanks for the info... I knew it was XFree (or at least a flavor of X) because I scared the hell out of my sister by pushing Ctrl-Alt-BS while she screamed "Ick! You broke it!".

    I know where Lyon is: I'm European myself and have quite some french friends...one of which studied in Lyon. But of course you coudn't know that ;-) Paris is as exciting for a small-town-guy like me than for Americans: you know, the kind that say: "I go to Europe this summer" -- "Oh, great, are you going to visit the Eiffel Tower?" They are quite funny when they do that.

  • My guess is a nice little BSOD....but then I do know for sure, because you posted that once in your previous comments ;-)
  • After reading all the comments, I've changed my plans for including these around the home. I think I should just be able to use some of these things for connecting in just about every room around the home.

  • Re:Will everyone know how to use them? (Score:3)

    by hillct ( 230132 ) on Saturday May 26, 2001 @05:53AM (#197004) Homepage Journal
    First of all, it would be trivial to present users with a simplistic interface having 6 or 7 icons for basic applications, then another for "Full System Access" which would grant the user the as complete a level of access as JWZ sees fit. As the previous poster mentioned, most kiosk users are inclined to check stocks, perhaps send an email or two using the webmail system of their preference, and that's about it.

    This functionality will exist for that market ssegment however there will be additional functionality agailable for the geeks who someone else pointed out will be frequenting the club. The system will probably work quite well and those of us who are routinely annoyed by the lack of funtionality of treditional kiosks will have more flexibility.

    One minor and trivial issue that I didn't see mentioned (I may have just missed it) was a system state reset on a period of inactivity. This may not include a reboot, but simply a reset to a standard opening state, like the afore mentioned simplified interface, such that when a geek leaves the kiosk without resetting it (like that would ever happen) the next user wouldn't be thrown into an enviroment which would be confusing or not useful to that less technical person. This could be setup as a screensaver, perhaps it would work as an extension of XScreenSaver [jwz.org], but there would have to be such a mechanism, or an easy hardware reset, but as I said before such a hardware reset would probably take a while (especially booting a kernel and mounting everything over the network (On a P200, I don't know how much time that would take...)

    --CTH

    --
  • Well if you check out the page it refers to Dance Not Art. The orginal owner didnt want an art club, he wanted a "Dance Not Art Lounge".


    The Lottery:
  • Strange because its on a CD!
    Whats special about JWZ's project is that he did it via a network and he gave great instructions to do so.


    The Lottery:

  • I've seen diskless (at least externally anyways...no CD/Floppy) Windows 98 kiosks at airports quite often. There's always someone using one, checking stocks or e-mail and such.

    Linux, on the other hand, is much less of a mainstream OS, for better or for worse. Some people would be able to convert to it relatively easily, but others would be lost not knowing which program does what (as, for example, KDE applicaiton names aren't always that descriptive.)

    They would need to place posters of useage directions next to it for those who aren't familiar with Linux (Including me, I've got a system running Linux, but have yet to make it talk to my Windows PCs on the network, despite trying), and let those who are do their own thing anyway.

    It's a good idea but I don't know if a lot of people will be able to use it.

  • Simple to set up, simple to administrate, and iMacs are cheap as dirt.
    The cheapest iMac I can find (in Apple's online store) costs $899.
    Starting at $199.99, the NIC costs less than the cheapest PC. It supports popular plugins like Real Player, Java and Macromedia Flash Player, so it's just as Internet-capable. And the NIC is so easy to use.

  • My Own Experiences Here (Score:4)

    by CrazyLegs ( 257161 ) <crazylegstoo@gmail.com> on Saturday May 26, 2001 @07:50AM (#197009) Homepage

    At the bank I work at, we tried going the diskless kiosk route with spotty success. The environment we have in our 1300 branches is currently OS/2 RIPL'd PCs running a fixed set of apps on a locked-down desktop. Essentially, this is a network station kiosk in function.

    Obviously, we're looking to get off OS/2 - yet still maintain the spirit of network-booting, locked down environment. We pilotted some IBM Network Station devices. Essentially, these are Unix kiosks - some highlights:

    • support DHCP
    • use BOOTP to bring themselves to life
    • loads apps off the BOOTP server
    • support Java natively
    • includes a Netscape-variant browser
    • supports ICA protocol to get those nasty Win32 apps
    • supports user-developed apps (browser, Java)
    • PowerPC chip, no disk, loads'o'RAM, sound, etc.

    The devices (and Unix kiosk concept) worked really well for us. However, we chose not to implement them for the simple fact that no swapping capability exists. That is, the diskless device, by definition, supports a flat memory model. Therefore, new apps that are introduced there must be analyzed for memory requirements and the RAM must be adjusted accordingly. In our bank, where existing apps change and new apps get introduced regularly, the flat-memory model was not acceptable.

    However, for true public kiosk applications where the app profile does not change with any kind frequency, I think the diskless kiosk notion can work very well.

  • While in general I agree, there is one important reason to keep MS applications in public schools: you produce users familiar with MS office. Office remains the dominant business application, and if public education is to prepare students for future employment then it should provide a solid grounding in the applications that employers use.
  • Good point. On the other hand, have you ever seen someone try and get basic office work without MS Office skills? You can't even get work at a local temp agency here without at least MS Word or Powerpoint capability! So while I agree with you that things change, it is definitely worth making sure that kids who are about to graduate (and not all - or even very many in some areas - will go on to college) have skills that will be immediately useful in the workforce.
  • Sure when my kids were younger the dominant word processor was word star. Have you ever heard of it? By your logic I should have Bought a PC and ran word star instead of buying an Apple IIc. Did it ever acure to you that people don't have to spend thier life growing up with a App to learn how to use it?

  • ...he still is building the DNA Lounge.

    Sometimes I wonder if the whole club is vapor and he's just maintaining an entertaining web site. I mean, the Pentagon [defenselink.mil] only took 16 months.

  • First of all - This Post is not Off Topic at all since a DNA lounge with an Adam's twist would be a fitting memorial. DNA would do well to twist in some increasingly missnamed trilogy referances such as uncertainty engine chai (42 cents) and so-long-sushi. I clicked both this story and the DNA link hoping it was true - Alas it refers to Genetics.
  • The logo appears to be a DNA double helix. If it's a double entendre - so much the better. I'm a Dance fiend and I missed it. That site would hold me a lot longer if they had an animated gif of the progress. a still of nothing is a little too zen for my blood. Either way i'm interested to see the place and I hope they capitalize on a fortunate acronym.

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