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Ladies And Gentlemen, Linux 2.4 499

Lars Lehtonen writes: "The 2.0 kernel is no longer obsolete, it is now "vintage." 2.4.0 is out. " Here is a bit on LinuxToday but I'm sure there will be many more. I don't think the mirrors have updated as of this writing, but if I don't post this now, I'll have to spend the next 3 hours deleting hundreds of submissions. Download! Compile! Rejoice! Thanks to Linus and all the rest of the guys who made it happen.
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Ladies and Gentleman, Linux 2.4

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  • The kernel being delayed does not hinder taking over Microsoft. It doesn't. There's nothing about the kernel that's a problem. All of the cool stuff like USB in 2.4 has been ported back to 2.2 long ago.
  • Just wanted to go on the record as saying thanks to Linus and the whole Kernel Crew for the LINUX 2.4 Kernel.

    Thanks all!
  • Two questions:

    1. Why would you think that the linux softupdates implementation would be any better? If there is a significant difference, it'd be in favor of FreeBSD, as McKusick is a FreeBSD developer and all.

    2. Sure, you could take major parts of the FreeBSD (or any BSD) kernel and start from there, but at what point would it just be easier to take BSD and add what Linux does better?

  • A multithreaded IP stack doesn't make it faster. As a matter of fact, it's necessarily slower than it would be possible with a non-multithreaded stack, all other things being equal.

    What it DOES make for is for greater performance on SMP systems and with multiple NICs.

    FreeBSD is reputed to have a faster IP stack, as far as UP systems go. I don't know whether that's true or not, but many ex-Linux FreeBSD users do claim so. The huge (and record) throughput on (formely is sometimes cited as proof.

    As for Windows, I don't know about 2000, but NT does have a multithreaded IP stack, one of the reasons why it beat the hell out of Linux (and FreeBSD) on a famous benchmark.

    Still, real world throughput is likely to depend much more heavily on simple things like the accept filters or the kqueue interface than on the IP stack speed.

    And while all the above might be true or not, it's not really the reason why heavy weights chose FreeBSD. What makes FreeBSD special for many is it's capability to handle heavy loads gracefully.
  • I assume this is available to the outside world as well... [] []
  • The last line of Linus's post is hilarious. "I won't care anyway." After this development cycle he's due for a long vacation.

    And by the way, wasen't there some 2.4 release betting going on? Did anyone win?

    Scott Miga
  • by SurfsUp ( 11523 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:49PM (#529319)
    I kept updating whenever they came out, and to tell you the truth, After test 8 they started sucking ass. They got less stable. Test 9 kept randomly killing random processes, and test 10 wouldn't even boot on my firends machine, so I gave up. I dont know if they fixed this problem but according to my friend it is a result of trying out different scheduling systems. I jsut hope they get all the bugs out by now.

    There were a few major things that had to be done right at the end of the development process after other things had stablilized, such as adding proper flushing and syncing to the page cache. The page cache is, by the way, where a lot of the improved performance of 2.4 comes from. Before the page cache was only used to reading, now it's used for reading and writing, consuming only half the cache memory. The other big performance improvement came from a fairly major modification to the memory management system, to use an approach called page aging which you can see works a lot better. This radical surgery all happened in the last 3 months of the leadup to 2.4, and there were a lot of stupid little bugs and problems to track down and kill as a result of it. It came together pretty fast, actually.

  • I cannot believe that the above post, which was a reproduction of Linus's email to the kernel list, was tagged as flamebait. In case the moderator didn't know this, this is Linus's actual email, which you can find off of this [] Linux Today article.

    If this happens to attract flames, it because the flamers are ignorant, and not because the poster is baiting for flames.

    In other words, please moderate the parent to this post back up. Thank you.

    ObJectBridge [] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.

  • Kernel 2.4.0 is available for download in Australia at:


  • Currently (about 20:49 EST), the largest slashdot effect I've ever seen is taking place -

    We're pounding at almost 99 MBit/S.

    Now only if they had another 1.5 terabit router...
  • by jmv ( 93421 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:50PM (#529325) Homepage
    You need... a new distro. Of course, it's always possible to do the upgrade, but there's going to be way too much stuff that will need to be installed. It's much simpler to re-install a new distro than to look for all the compatibility/utilities problems... I suggest you wait for your favorite distro to ship with a 2.4.x kernel and install it.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:50PM (#529326)
    Now everyone will have to go change their votes from Pr0n to Kernel Downloads Sorry, only eligible residents of Florida are allowed to change their votes.
  • That suddenly worries me. What's to stop someone from posting their site as a "mirror" here, and distributing a version of Linux with something evil like a trojan or a backdoor in it?
    Obfuscated e-mail addresses won't stop sadistic 12-year-old ACs.
  • Just stuck a copy up on our company site. Its got a v.large pipe (mmmm ... high bandwidth ...) so should be un-slashdottable. []

  • by Johnzo ( 94306 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:50PM (#529352) Homepage
    No, I'm sure Mandrake will be the first out the door with 2.4 -- except that Wal-Mart will make them ship 2.3.99.

    John(burned on the Linux-Mandrake 7.2 Complete, and grumpy about it)zo.

  • -- Explosion in kernel growth, putting security and stability at a lower level than feature richness.
    -- Defraction and scattering of features. Too many distros who all have their own way of thinking about how the best Linux system should look like.
    -- Loose application of standards. An oldy is the BSD versus System5 style init in Slack vs. Redhat.
    -- Commercialisation of the attempts of many to produce a "free" operating system. Moreover: doing that at such a high rate that the quality of the whole system degrades (I point to the massive distro RedHat, while also looking at some of the smaller ones like SuSE or Debian).

    To make a simple conclusion: the spirit of creating a free operating system which does better than the commercial ones, and therefor creating good code at every line of C one writes, is and has been disappearing slightly.

    This is not an attempt to start a flame, it's more an attempt to show my reasons why I stepped over to Linux.

  • by Calle Ballz ( 238584 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:51PM (#529355) Homepage
    I hate my ISP. So to help consume their bandwidth, here is my very own mirror......... []

  • you can find 2.4.0 here: Please be easy on me :)

    Hmm. Posting a 2.4.0 kernel link on slashdot eh? That's not really your site is it? ;)

    All men are great
    before declaring war

  • You need apt. If you can't use apt to upgrade, you'd have an easier time with a new distribution.
    Obfuscated e-mail addresses won't stop sadistic 12-year-old ACs.
  • by NickV ( 30252 ) on Friday January 05, 2001 @06:06PM (#529363)
    >> 1. Photoshop
    Recommending the gimp as a replacement to photoshop proves that you have never done any real design work in a real print house. Comparing the Gimp to Photoshop is like comparing a four-function calculator to a HP-48gx. The Gimp has pathetic CMYK support... especially when compared to PS6. And, whereas the gimp is a great product (don't get me wrong, I use it tons!) it lacks the finished quality of photoshop.

    >> 2. Quark
    >adobe's thing, framemaker. heard rumors it may be coming back to life on linux. This is probably your strongest point.
    You're comparing Quark, the premiere desktop-publishing software, used by the entire newspaper/magazine industry to framemaker, a produce Adobe itself cancelled on the Windows end and replaced with InDesign? Get real.

    >> 9. Outlook
    >yeah, like you need a gui to read email. mail, mailx, mh, mutt, pine on the CLI off thetop of my head. www-email in any of several browser, and this includes calendar functionality. Oh and of course the 20+ gui email clients (kmail and balsa come to mind)
    You've never actually worked for a large company (read: over 1,500 employees) ever have you? The strongest features of Outlook are it's groupware tools, and there's nothing like that for Linux. God help if you try to plan a meeting involving 15+ people in 5 different buildings without some groupware.

    >> 10. $GAME (Everything except Quake3 I guess).
    > for starters. More are out there.
    Dude, let's be serious here... go to,,, etc... and find me 3 games on the front page of any of those sites that are out for linux. Linux gaming is AT LEAST a year behind windows gaming. Remember the excitement when Descent 3 came out two years after the PC version? That highlights how pathetic Linux gaming truly is.

    I'm not saying, Linux isn't getting there, and neither is the original poster of this thread. However, you have to realize that for some truly professional pieces of software, you can't find linux replacements.
  • You think that is bad?

    When I read this press release I put my chair ontop of the hutch on my cubicle desk - hopped up and took off my shirt. I proceeded to conmence screaming "Who's yo Daddy? Wh0's yo Daddy? Linux is 3-1-3-3-7 - and you SUX0RS biatch!?!?!?" (the 3-1-3-3-7 and SUX0RS came out as "three - one - three - three - seven" etc). All the while slapping my own a$$ and dancing (ala the movie "American Pie" -- the scene with the guy dancing for the exchange student)

    Being that I work in a 100 year old steel mill in an Engineering Dept (Save me fellow geeks - im surrounded by PROCESS ENGINEERS! (*SHUDDERS*)) -- I am now writing this from a empty Ladel normally used to move molten metal ---- They are intending on dumping me in a furnace. They think Im posessed by a Penguin...

  • by GC ( 19160 )
    I use Slackware and install everything... disk space is so cheap these days.

    Seriously though - rather than use expert install have you thought about using the tagfiles feature? The disk sets themselves are pretty stable between releases and if you're missing a tag file then the install will prompt you for an answer.

    I've never used the feature and haven't found much info on it, but I'm sure will be happy to help out.
  • > download kernel, ungzip and untar the kernel in /usr/src (remove the existing /usr/src/linux symlink first)

    DON'T FORGET THIS STEP! First time I untared a kernel in /usr/src, I forgot to do this, and wiped out my current kernel source tree and all my current, working config files. Actually, aside from a lot of cursing and sweating and having to figure out all those arcaine options, no real harm was done, but it created a lot of extra work before I was done!

    Another hint - Save your old kernel! It is very simple to stick two or more kernels in the lilo.conf file. Call your original one "linux" (the default), and the new one "new". Then, on the LILO command prompt, type "new". That way, if you've managed to hopelessly bugger the new kernel, you can still boot the old one.


  • Thanks for the link, I'm loading it right now. Till I switched from RedHat's 2.96 back to egcs-2.91.66, quite a few things wouldn't compile properly. Now, nearly everyting (user error not counted, of course).
  • The best is
    /* Fuck me gently with a chainsaw... */
    in \arch\sparc\kernel\ptrace.c

  • The first thing I did when I found out 2.4 was out was head over to Namesys to see about that. From the FTP site:

    - 306954 Jan 5 09:49 linux-2.4.0-reiserfs-3.6.24-patch.gz

    It's there. Gtab it. Have fun. A link for the impatient: -3.6.24-patch.gz [].
  • Is there an LVM tool/utility that gets compiled with the Kernel? Do you need to reformat disks to get LVM on existing machines? If not, how are existing disks delt with?

  • by GC ( 19160 )
    Just imagine what ten million Linux users will be doing all weekend.

    Attempting to Download, Attempting to Compile & Install a new Linux kernel.
  • The default config has changed over the 2.3/2.4test-pre cycle. That means that if you used to not need to change anything, you might need to now. Pay attention to each and every default setting, or you'll waste time with kernels that don't boot, and modules that won't load or worse.

    You've been warned...

  • 155kb/sec for me. Get it there, folks. Really. .4.0.tar.gz []
  • It's quite ammusing that at the mo, the [] frontpage reads:

    The latest stable version of the Linux kernel is: 2.4.0
    The latest beta version of the Linux kernel is: 2.3.99-pre9

    I'm so used to seeing the latest beta with a higher version number. Looks wrong for some reason.

  • by cpeterso ( 19082 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:01PM (#529402) Homepage
    New Linux 2.6 features will include:

    1. FreeBSD-like TCP stack
    2. FreeBSD-like VM
    3. FreeBSD-like FS

  • You can find it mirrored at orphansonfire []
  • Yep. I've applied this already. Everything in either bug or security has been applied.
  • 1. Why would you think that the linux softupdates implementation would be any better? If there is a significant difference, it'd be in favor of FreeBSD, as McKusick is a FreeBSD developer and all.

    The phase tree algorithm will not be superior initially. But it raises the possibilities that the file system could be made algorithmically much faster by utilizing the phase tree for file searches. FFS is already log structured, so this could be a wash. The phase trees could be faster. The phase trees could always have log structuring added later. Phillips is a long long time file system/database programmer, who has decades of experience with atomic soft update algorithms.

    2. Sure, you could take major parts of the FreeBSD (or any BSD) kernel and start from there, but at what point would it just be easier to take BSD and add what Linux does better?

    At this point linux kicks the crap out of any of the BSD ports for SMP machines. Especially multi-CPU multi-NIC machines. And the fine grained locking is quite arduous to add and debug. Since I use an SMP machine at work regularly, this matter a lot to me. For example, Linus specs his four CPU machines at 370% of the kernels with only one CPU compiled in.

    To a single user machine, I don't think there are such strong arguments for linux over BSD now, especially as FFS + soft updates is a clear advantage. Where will the future lead - I don't know. But I am pretty sure I will be using linux, and possibly also FreeBSD. Both are great. Discussing the relative merits of one shouldn't automatically prompt one to say all development should be dropped for the other.

    May they both live long and prosper.
  • Similarly... I normally wait a few weeks before installing a new dot-even release, as the release is likely to be followed by a quick string of quick fix patches.

    ... My curiosity, this time however, is too much, and I'm off to upgrade :-)
  • At this point linux kicks the crap out of any of the BSD ports for SMP machines. Especially multi-CPU multi-NIC machines.

    You're right that Linux does have a clear lead over FreeBSD in SMP for now (until 5.0 is released) but how is it better for multi-NIC machines?

  • If you have a web browser, it is more efficient to access the servers via HTTP, as you don't use a process that sits idle during the time you're not downloading something as is the case with FTP.

    I read your message that was scrawled with a crayon and sent on a carrier pigeon. These "web browser" things sound great. What are they? How can I get one?

  • Yeah, I've considered using the tagfiles, but it's one of those, "I'll get around to it _eventually_" type projects. *sigh*

  • Well, it's not entirely impossible to just install a newer distro and download 2.4. I've got a Mandrake 7.0 laptop that I've done extensive upgrades to without any major problems. (kernel 2.2.18, gnome 1.2.1, other stuff)
  • I apologize, I must take down my mirror the kernel. My communistic ISP is threatening me. I don't think they liked the extra traffic. I hope I was able to help even out the slashdot effect.


  • by garver ( 30881 ) on Friday January 05, 2001 @07:42AM (#529416)

    There are drivers in the kernel and userland tools like vgcreate, lvcreate, lvextend, etc.

    I'm pretty certain you need to clobber the disks to start using LVM. With disk prices the way they are today, I just bought new disks, rebuilt on them, then imported my old ones when I was finished.

  • UMAX Astra 2000U scanners don't work... apparently UMAX won't release details. They're the kind off USB scanner that only has software controls, even for things like turning off the lamp :( I'm always afraid if I leave it on in linux the lamp will burn out. The SANE page regarding them isn't really all that helpful. Of course, UMAX's software is only for Windows and Mac.
    I guess the distinction is really between 'can't' and 'don't' then. The hardware doesn't care what OS it's under.
  • Linux 2.2.x doesn't do many-to-many and many-to-few NAT and as far as I know still doesn't do it in 2.4.0, but I don't think it would be a big stretch to implement it in the new netfilter structure.

    Stateful inspection allows connection tracking. I think a lot of hacks were required to give MASQUERADEing enough state to work within ipchains. Life is easier with iptables since the state is maintained by iptables. For example, since iptables can see connection creates and tear-downs, MASQUERADEing knows when to stop connecting a realIP:port to a fakeIP:port.

    The RAID drivers are alpha as in misnomer. This is the directory they distributed from and at one point it was a correct label. I believe there are a few features that should still be considered alpha/beta (on-line expansion, for example), but the standard RAID[0|1|5] stuff is great.

    Linux 2.4.0 has support for up to 10 (yes ten) IDE channels. How does /dev/hdt sound?

  • by garver ( 30881 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @06:08PM (#529423)

    I'm currently running 2.4.0test12 on a system I just built, not just because I wanted to be cool and brag to all of co-workers (who would of course give me a blank stare and go on about the NY Jets, etc.), but because I had use for the features. What I'm actually using in 2.4.0:

    • iptables. Part of yet another iteration in packet filtering, this one promises to stick around. iptables is stateful, while ipchains was stateless. This means real NAT is possible. I also didn't have to hack and patch to get my IPsec tunnel to work NAT'ed. Finally, iptables is a lot simpler (in my experience) to work with. No more headaches trying to figure out how many of the 3 chains, INPUT, OUTPUT, and FORWARD, the packet will go through. In iptables, packets go through only one: INPUT if it is coming into the machine, OUTPUT if it originated on the machine and is leaving, and FORWARD if it is being routed through. Oh, and I can have chains with returns, so I can bring up my firewall, but leave my webcache down, etc. I can go on, but I think you get the point.
    • RAID and LVM. The good, so called "alpha", drivers are in this kernel. No more patching, finding a good "ac" patch, etc. Prior to this, I was mostly stuck running 2.2.13ac3 since they had been concentrating (as they should be) on getting the drivers in 2.4.0. LVM is a beautiful thing and gets us closer to the flexibility of Solaris+Veritas. When I built this machine, I RAID5'd 3 40GB drives, put them in a volume group, made logical volumes, copied all of my user data off of my old system drives, then put the old drivers in as another RAID5 array, added them to the volume group, and used the new space to expand any volumes I wanted more space in.
    • I have 2 Promise ATA100 cards in these beast also, for a total of 6 IDE channels. I had a much easier time getting 2.4.0 to a) see all of the channels; and b) play ATA100 with them. In fact, I didn't have to do anything, plug them in and watch them detect at boot.

    It has been promised that reiserfs will show up in 2.4.1. Imagine a journalled filesystem! Currently, filesystem checks on my volumes requires about 45-60 minutes. That sucks. I'm

    That said, I agree, don't use them if you don't need the features. I had a lot of problems with test11. I was one of many that saw panics when running RAID5, sometimes within 4 hours after boot. test12 hasn't failed yet, but it has only been 20days.

  • It would be more useful if the links (esp. the HTTP links) contained some path info. The front pages of the sites don't always contain obvious pointers to the Linux kernel archives.
  • by Ian Schmidt ( 6899 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @06:09PM (#529425)
    Go on IRC at channel #nvidia and the bot named "ice-dcc" can hook you up with the appropriate patches. I'm running 2.4.0 final with full acceleration on my GeForce 2MX right now.
  • I tried installing 2.4.0 however I noticed that NVIDIA doesn't officially support the 2.4 kernel series with their (ahem, binary only) kernel driver. Has anyone tried using 2.4.0 or any of the 2.4 test kernels with an NVIDIA card and gotten successful results? If not, I'll have to stick with 2.2 until the next driver comes out.

    -- BLarg!
  • by mattdm ( 1931 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @06:11PM (#529430) Homepage
    What you say is true for most releases within a version of a kernel (2.2.16 -> 2.2.17, for example), but isn't necessarly completely accurate when moving from 2.2 to 2.4. For example, the mod-utils and util-linux packages (and probably several others) that come with Red Hat 6.2 aren't quite up to the revision level wanted by the kernel. This is what Red Hat means when they say that RH 7 is their first 2.4-ready distro -- it's not all marketing hype.


  • (well, it will be when cultural anthropologists read this post in the year 5009 ...)

    Of course, since everyone runs some Debian-based distro then, they will also wonder why their Earth calander of software history seems to be about 8 months off;)

  • I just ran across the street to my neighbor who's a diehard NT user and danced circles around him with my stuffed Tux screaming "VAPORWARE MY ASS! T UX OWNS J00!".

  • As always... []
  • Ive now been using 2.4 for 30 minutes, and id like to give my impression of it so far.
    First, It booted FAST, not just the kernel, but the userland programs too. I was impressed,
    Next, I played some MP3s and it uses all 4 speakers properly now (rear ones wouldnt work) so that was a pleasant surprise. I decided to compile a little program in X, normally, when doing something like that, my cursor will be kind of choppy, but no more. It handles well. It also detected the USB scanner ive still got hooked up from Windows, still dont know if I can actually scan though (i never scan these days, never really cared)
    Im still playing, but if your reading this article wondering if you should use it, give it a try. There is definatly a noticable performance increase. I love it, its been long awaited for 2.4, the wait was well worth it.
  • My point exactly. :-)

    I'll bet if they posted their logs, half of the referals would come from /.!

    Anyway, for those of you who can't get through (everyone), here's the list of US mirrors...

    (HTTP) (100 Mbit/s) (200 Mbit/s) (250 Mbit/s)

    (FTP) (100 Mbit/s) (100 Mbit/s) (100 Mbits/s) (100 Mbit/s) (200 Mbit/s) (250 Mbit/s) (200 Mbit/s) (90 Mbit/s)(probably swamped) (300 Mbits/s)(good bet) (155 Mbit/s)(Good for RoadRunner users) (45 Mbit/s)(50/50 chance)

    No number = less than 50 Mbit/s. Happy compiling! Note: sites are not hyperlinked because my fingers already hurt!

    Moderators: -1, nested, oldest first!
  • by NtG ( 61481 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:48PM (#529465)
    I would suggest 2 clicks, otherwise that $10,000 should just cover his legal defence when Amazon sues his ass.
  • by Alphix ( 33559 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:49PM (#529474) Homepage
    From linux/Documentation/Changes:

    Current Minimal Requirements

    Upgrade to at *least* these software revisions before thinking you've
    encountered a bug! If you're unsure what version you're currently
    running, the suggested command should tell you.

    Again, keep in mind that this list assumes you are already
    functionally running a Linux 2.2 kernel. Also, not all tools are
    necessary on all systems; obviously, if you don't have any PCMCIA (PC
    Card) hardware, for example, you probably needn't concern yourself
    with pcmcia-cs.

    o Gnu C 2.91.66 # gcc --version
    o Gnu make 3.77 # make --version
    o binutils # ld -v
    o util-linux 2.10o # fdformat --version
    o modutils 2.4.0 # insmod -V
    o e2fsprogs 1.19 # tune2fs --version
    o pcmcia-cs 3.1.21 # cardmgr -V
    o PPP 2.4.0 # pppd --version
    o isdn4k-utils 3.1beta7 # isdnctrl 2>&1|grep version


    The recommended compiler for the kernel is egcs 1.1.2 (gcc 2.91.66), and it
    should be used when you need absolute stability. You may use gcc 2.95.2
    instead if you wish, although it may cause problems. Later versions of gcc
    have not received much testing for Linux kernel compilation, and there are
    almost certainly bugs (mainly, but not exclusively, in the kernel) that
    will need to be fixed in order to use these compilers. In any case, using
    pgcc instead of egcs or plain gcc is just asking for trouble.

    For even more details, read the file yourself ;)

    Oh...and if you choose to include devfs, do remember to install devfsd before you reboot with your new kernel (I forgot)
  • by adubey ( 82183 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:15PM (#529477)
    You got off easy.

    I woke up just to see this article, a full half hour before I went to bed, then I beat the NT-loving CIO, cut him up in pieces and danced on his grave.

    Now here I am in a Chinese prison serving as child labour sewing shoes for Nike.

    It was worth it.
  • by Jordy ( 440 ) <jordan&snocap,com> on Thursday January 04, 2001 @03:59PM (#529509) Homepage
    Linus' email to linux-kernel seems a bit down. Someone should really do something about it. A parade, maybe a new car... I don't know..

    Email is as follows:

    In a move unanimously hailed by the trade press and industry analysts as being a sure sign of incipient braindamage, Linus Torvalds (also known as the "father of Linux" or, more commonly, as "mush-for-brains") decided that enough is enough, and that things don't get better from having the same people test it over and over again. In short, 2.4.0 is out there.

    Anxiously awaited for the last too many months, 2.4.0 brings to the table many improvements, none of which come to mind to the exhausted release manager right now. "It's better", was the only printable quote. Pressed for details, Linus bared his teeth and hissed at reporters, most of which suddenly remembered that they'd rather cover "Home and Gardening" than the IT industry anyway.

    Anyway, have fun. And don't bother reporting any bugs for the next few days. I won't care anyway.

  • by iamcadaver ( 104579 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:17PM (#529513)

    If I were given the opportunity to send a buck, securely, in celebration, to Linus. Such that he may, for a week or so, not worry about bug fixes, but spend time thinking, with his family, where to donate the accumulated pennies. To have a total, at the end, to show the press . o ( here is what the OSS model MEANS to the community ).

    Wouldn't you?
  • by bconway ( 63464 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:20PM (#529515) Homepage
    It wasn't until 2.2.8 that 2.3 broke off from the main kernel branch. I'd give them at least 2 months to track down all the major bugs in the initial 2.4 release before anyone starts jumping the gun on new development.
  • You see this on /., then scream out YES! really loudly, even though other people are in the house...I did this...

    This is about as exciting as getting a new PS2 - and playing it.

    Serious notes: As mentioned by other people: the IDE toys in the kernel have changed - and not with more features. The configuration has changed. You'll have to check ALL the questions!

    Things not yet mentioned (but still important): USB support - it is here in full: no "backporting".

    Tips for non-pros: If you don't NEED it to be compiled in, don't compile it in!. Modules (with the autoloader) are great for items such as your CDROM drive, floppy drive (you do run off of your hardisk, right?), printer, etc. should be modules. Personally, I reccomend that you compile everything that doesn't go into the kernel as a module - even if you don't use it. This makes upgrading much easier - no recompiles.

    Enjoy your new kernel!

    Moderators: -1, nested, oldest first!

  • by Lupulack ( 3988 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:00PM (#529528)
    I was *just* now looking on the and there's only the prerelease. Of course, now that Slashdot has posted the existence of 2.4.0 I ( with my pitiful dialup connection ) will be unable to get hold of it for DAYS.

    Oh well, I wonder if it'll be like the 2.2 release, where 2.2.1 thru 2.2.5 were released in the course of a week ... I highly doubt it, but the thought makes me feel better :)

  • by Ace_ ( 44146 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @07:22PM (#529533)
    And what about the 1000s of other kernel hackers around the world... Linus might be the kernel's "father" but.. if I was contributing even moderately to the kernel I'd be kind of a little upset that Linus was recieving lord knows how much money and not one other developer was seeing a penny. Unless Linus was giving the money to charity or it was going DIRECTLY to kernel development (i.e. buying new hardware for kernel developers/etc.)...
  • by StandardDeviant ( 122674 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @07:38PM (#529570) Homepage Journal
    > 1. Photoshop
    > 2. Quark
    adobe's thing, framemaker. heard rumors it may be coming back to life on linux. This is probably your strongest point.
    > 3. 3DSMax or Maya. Take yer pick.
    Blender. Moonlight Atelier. Povray.
    > 4. distributed network renderers for the above
    ever watched Titanic?
    > 5. Non-linear video editing systems (Avid, >Media100)
    > 6. Digital audio editing packages (ProTools, etc.)
    I'm not into digital music so I can't comment. Didn't a book about making music on linux just get published by No Starch Press?

    > 7. Excel
    Gnumeric. Star Office. Applixware.
    >8. Powerpoint
    Star Office. Mayber others I don't know about.
    > 9. Outlook
    yeah, like you need a gui to read email.
    mail, mailx, mh, mutt, pine on the CLI off thetop of my head. www-email in any of several browser, and this includes calendar functionality. Oh and of course the 20+ gui email clients (kmail and balsa come to mind)

    > 10. $GAME (Everything except Quake3 I guess). for starters. More are out there.

    > Academia? Government? Military?
    hah. 70% of the scientific and engineering departments at my university run all-Unix-and-mostly-linux-at-that shops. I don't work for the government or the military, but they're hardly shining examples of wise procurement decisions in most cases.

    >From where I sit, installing Linux on a workstation reduces its functionality.
    The problem is that you are apparently sitting in
    the short bus. :-)
  • It's ironic that you don't like linux for the very reasons that it has succeeded so well.

    Security is important but it's not the only thing. Linux for me has a nice blend of security, stability and feature richness. For a coporate firewall, I might run OpenBSD. But not for a desktop.

    The BSD's suffer from too centralized developement style. In BSD the kernel seems tied to the rest of the distribution. In Linux every piece of software is autonomous. This Linux encourages new distributions and different ways of doing things. At one point the BSD kernels were technically superior to the Linux kernel but Linux use grew more rapidly. I think that this decentralised developement was one of the key reasons.

    Free software was always about Freedom as in speech not about Free beer. And anyways Suse is Comercial but you group it with Debian which is non-comercial? I'm confused.

    If you don't use Linux that's fine. I don't care one way or the other. But I would say that judging from your wishlist, any operating system you like is going to be fairly obscure.

    What I want is that Linux will be the most popular operating system for the desktop. That millions of people find out what it's like to be able to rely on their computer not crashing. That the GPL will infect every peice of software until it's an open source world.

  • by Mazrim_Ta ( 129987 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:03PM (#529575)
    I would just like to say that when I read this, I ran around the office showing all the NT admins who for the longest time were saying what crap linux is, and how it 2.4 would never come out. I then ran around the office naked screaming "Viva la tux" and here I am, at Starbucks...jobless. =P Give me some food! Maz
  • by DaSyonic ( 238637 ) <DaSyonic&yahoo,com> on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:04PM (#529581) Homepage
    As you may of noticed, there is not a release of it noticable. Its only available right now as a diff in elease-diff []
    So as of right now, you need the pre-release source. Hope that helps youll get this new kernel, mine is already compiling - wanted to try and help the world get their's going too Enjoy
  • by davidu ( 18 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @06:02PM (#529583) Homepage Journal

    Follow the tipster protocol -- you can tip him at -- once enough money is gathered ($50 bucks I think), they contact him and send the check. Courtney Love, and many others use the system already.

    Also, even though FairTunes is for musicians, it works just fine for any "person" or "group" as long as they have an address or an email address where the guy who runs it can contact them.(linus@transmeta will work fine)

    donate here: []

  • by gags bunny ( 263639 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:04PM (#529585)
    this is great. I've been using 2.4-test8 for a while now and have been loving it. But when al the partying is over, then comes the question -- what next.

    OK what else really needs to be in the kernel, what needs to be fixed. We've been testing 2.4 for over a year now and its out and looking good. So its stable and secure. So what about new features? What else needs to be put into a kernel that is already a ~25 meg download. More to the point, what else will even fit?
  • by Adam Wiggins ( 349 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:05PM (#529593) Homepage
    I've been salivating for months anticipating the anticipation for 2.6. Let the wait begin!

  • by rob_au ( 164032 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @06:05PM (#529594)
    This mirror is hosted on one of my systems and includes both tar.bz2 and tar.gz and signature files. The URLs for direct download are as follows ; 2.4.0.tar.bz2 [] 2.4.0.tar.bz2.sign [] 2.4.0.tar.gz [] 2.4.0.tar.gz.sign []

  • by MAXOMENOS ( 9802 ) <maxomai&gmail,com> on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:05PM (#529601) Homepage
    Download from here []

    You can also find a list of US mirrors here [], or search here [] for mirrors for your country. Last I checked the new kernel hadn't been mirrored yet, FYI.

    ObJectBridge [] (GPL'd Java ODMG) needs volunteers.

  • by StandardDeviant ( 122674 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:07PM (#529608) Homepage Journal

    Dude, I'm sure so many people have offered Linus free (money, hardware, software, beer, food, cars, lusty wenches, lusty men, lusty goats, rides in nuclear submarines or fighter planes) he could take everyone up on their offers and live 'till he was 180 before he got through with them all. :-) Of course, IMHO he deserves all that and a whipped cream sunday besides. Linus, in the unlikely even you read this comment: You rule!. 'Nuff said.

  • by Nailer ( 69468 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @10:11PM (#529621)
    A more fine grained access control scheme, to allow more complex [but necessary in most modern security schemes] permissions on an object if desired or necessary. Why does SSHD run with permissions to make devices?

    The Unix philosophy is to limit users permissions to the bare minimum neccesaryu for the account to perform their functions. Unfortunately, the permission scheme on most popular Unixes stops this reality from occuring. sudo is a hack. There's no way I can give full control to an folder to the root users, read and execute permission to one group, read only permission to another group, and have all other access denied. This is an impediment for security.

    Run top and see all those daemons running as root. They don't need te be, and they shouldn't be. There;s two reasons why they do - either bad programming, or the limits of traditional Unix style permissions.

    But not all Unixs use rwxs. In fact, all the trusted varieties [AFAIK] of Unixes run with ACL based systems. There is a version for Linux called Linux Trustees [actually Trustees are difffeent and better than ACLs, but apply the same basic concepts of fine grained permissions].

    Trustees needs to go into the next major kernel.

    Yes, I realize this will involve rewriting most software [even in only a minor way for most]. But this has been done before for other utilities. Some degree of backware compatibility could be included into the scheme.

    Linux Trustees for Linux 3.0!
  • by Nailer ( 69468 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @10:16PM (#529623)
    I know both your own post and the Linux based one beneath it are flamebait [no mater what the moderators think], but I do have to ask about the advantage of the FreeBSD IP stack. I thought Linux 2.4s was fully multithreaded, and thus much faster than the partially multithreaded FreeBSD / Windows 2000 one, on i386 machines especially. Are there any other considerators for preferring the BSD stack?

    Or am I just being dumb and responding to a troll :-)?

  • by twisty ( 179219 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:12PM (#529635) Homepage Journal
    I've only done a handful of upgrades, most of them to Mandrake. (6.0 through 7.2 and now 7.2-2.4.0)

    If you're not using loadlin to bootstrap from Windows, it should be cake. (Utterly painless if you're using the MandrakeUpdate.) However, if you do use loadlin, you really ought to make sure you've got boot floppies and a backup of the original kernel. Beyond that, I don't forsee much problem on an unmodified RH6.2.

  • by mrright ( 301778 ) <rudi@lambda-computing. c o m> on Friday January 05, 2001 @03:24AM (#529653) Homepage
    Hello everybody, and thanks to Linus and all the other kernel hackers for this marvelous piece of software called linux 2.4.

    Please do yourself a favor and compile the kernel with HZ=1024 instead of HZ=100 (this is the frequency for multitasking timeslices).
    This gives you a much better "perceived performance" especially for gui applications.

    The drawback is that since the machine switches the execution context more often, performance goes down a bit. But on my machine (K6-II 350MHz, 196MB) it is less than one percent, so it does not matter at all as long as you do not do serious number crunching.

    If you compile with a very strange value like 4096 Hz (yes, I tried that too :-), ps and top get irritated but everything else works just fine. In fact, I write this post at 4096! Proof:

    Unknown HZ value! (4096) Assume 100.
    862 pts/0 00:00:01 cat
    882 pts/1 00:00:04 bash
    893 pts/1 00:00:02 wvdial
    1035 pts/2 00:00:04 bash
    1042 pts/2 00:00:04 ps

    With 1024 even ps and top do work, since this frequency is used by the alpha port. And your KDE/Gnome/whatever will feel much better even with the current scheduler.

    Sorry if this is redundant, but I think it is important,


    Cool java games? Try []
  • by rd ( 30144 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:15PM (#529657)
    If this is to occur, then why do we have delayed projects like this kernel?

    The recipe specifically states:

    "Heat the new kernel at 425 degrees until baked to perfection."

  • by tao ( 10867 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:16PM (#529660) Homepage

    Noooo... Please don't, because each extra user that sticks to v2.0 becomes my trouble instead of the corporate bug-munching crowd on linux-kernel. Yes, I admit I was stupid when I accepted maintainership, but someone had to.

    Regards: David Weinehall, maintainer of the v2.0 kernel-series.

  • by anticypher ( 48312 ) <anticypher&gmail,com> on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:17PM (#529663) Homepage
    The main reason I got broadband access:
    [ ] 24 hour IRC Idling
    [ ] MegaTokyo
    [ ] Pr0n
    [X] Kernel Downloads
    [ ] apt-get -u upgrade
    [ ]
    [ ] MP3s
    [ ] I Saw "The Net" and thought it would be 31337

    Now everyone will have to go change their votes from Pr0n to Kernel Downloads. But even broadband won't help here in Europe until the mirrors get updated. Damn slashdot effect.

    the AC
  • by Kiro ( 220724 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:20PM (#529670)
    This is the only known download link that works: .4.0.tar.gz []


  • by Saint Nobody ( 21391 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:31PM (#529672) Homepage Journal

    Looking back on some of the bugs that stayed in the 2.2 tree for so long (including some that caused massive filesystem corruption) i can't help but worry that 2.4 is just as far from BugFree(TM)

    Unless I see a feature in 2.4 that I absolutely need, I'm sticking with 2.2 until 2.4 becomes stable enough that they open the 2.5 tree. Granted, there's a lot of neat stuff in 2.4, but there is a difference between neat and necessary. I'm sticking with kernels i know are stable.

  • by goingware ( 85213 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @08:40PM (#529685) Homepage
    Well I guess I was hoping there would be more widespread testing before the -nothing release was released, because now that 2.4.0 final has been released, some distros are likely to use it right away rather than wait for bugs to stabilize and some people will put it straight into production use.

    So just yesterday I wrote:

    on Advogato [].

    It's got some helpful, practical tips on downloading and building a kernel from sources as well as providing feedback to the kernel developers. All of the information in the article is available somewhere, but when I first began testing with 2.4.0-test1, I found some things difficult to figure out, so I felt that it would be nice to put what I learned all down in one place.

    This is part of an overall effort to improve the quality of Free Software. Another part of the effort is the just-founded Linux Quality Database [], so far just a proposal - contact me at [mailto] if you want to help.

    And finally, some interesting trivia for you:

    After a long beta testing period and many delays, Windows 2000 shipped with 64000 documented bugs of which 25000 were considered serious by Microsoft itself (the figures are quoted from memory, I might be a bit off). The Windows trade press reported that the opinion was widely held by IT managers that one should not install Windows 2000 on any machine until a few service packs had been released, with Windows 2000 server not being considered ready for use until much later than the desktop user version.

    The BSD/Mach based Mac OS X, derived from the NeXT operating system and now in beta testing, is Apple's first operating system to support protected memory that is expected to be widely used. (Another was A/UX, Apple's Unix port, but it served only a niche market).

    Apple has been trying for ten years, longer than Linux has been in existence, to write a modern operating system. The first was Pink, renamed Taligent when Apple collaborated with IBM on it. In the end all that came of it was a little-used object-oriented programming framework.

    The next was Copland, and I don't know why it was never completed exactly, but I was offerred a job as a performance engineer on the Copland project when I worked at Apple, but I turned it down - I didn't tell them this but I had the sense that Copland was a project that would never ship.

    And Linus wrote Linux when he was a college student, which combined with the GNU [] utilities forms the operating system we know and love today.

    These huge, well-funded corporations can't get it together to program their way out of a wet paper bag but a bunch of freaks on the Net have written the fastest growing operating system in use today.

    Michael D. Crawford
    GoingWare Inc

  • by goingware ( 85213 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @11:07PM (#529688) Homepage
    I have word from some folks who maintain mirrors of that the mirrors are actually lightly loaded tonight. The problem is that has the list of mirrors, and being slashdotted, no one can find a a mirror or know that an organized mirror system even exists.

    If is very easy to figure out your nearest mirror:

    Determine the two-letter country code for the nation you reside in. This will be the same as the top-level national domain, ca for Canada, uk for United Kingdom, ch for Switzerland and so on.

    If you're using ftp, the server name starts with ftp. If you're using http (a web browser), then it starts with www.

    Put the country code in the middle. Add at the end.

    • Canada: []
    • United Kingdom: []
    • Japan: []
      • and so on. If you have a web browser, it is more efficient to access the servers via HTTP, as you don't use a process that sits idle during the time you're not downloading something as is the case with FTP.

    Michael D. Crawford
    GoingWare Inc
  • by mgoyer ( 164191 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @08:43PM (#529690) Homepage
    Even though FairTunes is for musicians

    :) The site is geared towards musicians but we've sent money to musicians, artists, cartoonists, lawyers, programmers,... We hope to soon have a more generic interface so that we're not biased towards musicians.

    So feel free to send money to whomever you please! (Currently we're sending the money off after only $20.00 has been collected).

    For example you can find Linus' Fairtunes page here: Linus Torvalds []

    ..You can use either your Visa card or your PayPal account to send your contribution.


  • by micromoog ( 206608 ) on Friday January 05, 2001 @04:12AM (#529691)
    That's nothing! While I was waiting for 2.4 to compile, I hijacked a loaded military jet, made a beeline to Redmond, and rained fiery kamikaze death while screaming "VAPORWARE THIS, MUTHAFUCKAS!!"

    Now I'm Satan's lil' man-bitch for all eternity. At least I have built-in USB support.

  • Well, actually I do. I think that stuff _does not_ need to be handled on the client side. Give them a weak client, or even a web browser, and do it all on the server (one contra-Outlook example would be all of Yahoo!'s stuff, another would be OpenMail from HP, according to the grapevine anyway). Especially collaborative calendaring, that's just nasty conceptually if you have clients handling it. I would elaborate on this more but I'm hungry so the mouth-contentious-blather-on-slashdot part of my brain is losing to the go-hunt-defenseless-nachos part...

    So, basically, you and I have the same goals with regards to mail/groupware, we just want to see them implemented in two different ways. As my mamma says: "They ain't nothin' wrong widat." :-)

  • by peterjm ( 1865 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:26PM (#529707)
    dude, that's nothing.
    when I read this, I went and grabbed our nt admin by the scruff of his neck, dragged him to my cubicle, and beat his head into my moniter screaming, "Now who's vaporware, BITCH?!?!?!"

    now here I am at kinkos on their crappy little rental macs.

    it was worth it.

  • by cpeterso ( 19082 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:36PM (#529708) Homepage
    thought so.
  • by highcaffeine ( 83298 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:27PM (#529710)
    That's quite untrue, actually. Sounds like someone with stock in a particular distro company may have told you that. ;-)

    Under all but rare or weird circumstances upgrading to a newer kernel will only break a program if it relies on a special module or patched code in the kernel that the distro makeer has pre-applied to the kernel and that is not standard with stock kernel downloads. These kinds of programs are few and far between.

    Recompiling a kernel is not a sacred initiation rite for the elite. It's actually very easy as long as you understand the hardware in your system (you'll need to know specific model numbers and such for just about everything in your system that you want to get working properly; you can consult the files under /proc to get just about every bit of information you need), and follow all the proper instructions.

    You can either look below for very brief instructions, or download and untar the kernel and read the README file in the newly created linux/ directory where you untarred.

    The very abbreviated instructions are: download kernel, ungzip and untar the kernel in /usr/src (remove the existing /usr/src/linux symlink first), rename new linux/ directory to something else, then recreate /usr/src/linux symlink to that directory. Then, cd into /usr/src/linux and do "make " plus either config, menuconfig or xconfig. For beginners, menuconfig or xconfig are best (you'll need to be running X for the latter to work). Configure the kernel as you need/want, then save & exit. Type "make dep", then "make bzImage", then (if you selected any options to be compiled as modules) "make modules" and "make modules_install".

    Copy /usr/src/linux/arch/"your platform"/boot/bzImage to /boot/vmlinuz-"something unique". Replace "your platform" with i386 for Intel, "alpha" for Alpha, and so on. Then edit /etc/lilo.conf. For details on lilo.conf, do "man lilo.conf". If you're using LILO and have edited lilo.conf, make sure to rerun "/sbin/lilo" before rebooting your system.

    Most configuration options for the kernel have decent little bits of info attached to them saying what they're for (hit "?" with the option selected to see the help text).

    Hope that helps. If not, read the README a couple times. If you're ever unsure about a kernel option, look for documentation on it under the linux/Documentation directory. There's detailed info in there for most options in the kernel.
  • I can't imagine ANY serious Linux distributor that will put 2.4.0 on it's new version of Linux..

    I guess that everyone will wait until at least something like 2.4.2 or 2.4.3 to put those kernels as default - and even then - you'll have on the 2nd (or the 3rd) CD the 2.2.X kernel to fall back to..

    I would really suggest to people who wants to use ReiserFS to wait for kernel 2.4.1 and enjoy the benefits of bug fixes + ReiserFS in 1 complete stock kernel...
  • by 1010011010 ( 53039 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:44PM (#529744) Homepage
    It's not "BugFree." It's just finally feature-frozen. Read Linus' email, above. Now that it's a released kernel. the API has to stop changing and the developers REALLY, ACTUALLY have to limit themselves to bugfixes. Unless they don't. :)

    - - - - -
  • by goingware ( 85213 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @09:12PM (#529763) Homepage
    As you will see in the Linux-Kernel Mailist List FAQ [], the old server for the list (and most bug reports) at has died.

    I just saw a very confused user posting to linux-kernel wondering where to send a report (he'd figured it out, but wasn't sure).

    The correct, new address for bug report submissions is [mailto]

    Same hostname, different domain.

    If you're going to work with the new kernel, I highly recommand you browse the mailing list. But linux-kernel has one of the highest volumes of any internet mailing list so you probably don't want to actually subscribe (you don't have to subscribe to post, unlike many mailing lists).

    Instead, read the list off an archive server. There are many of them. This search at Google will find you an archive []

    Michael D. Crawford
    GoingWare Inc

  • by RiffRafff ( 234408 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:21PM (#529775) Homepage
    I don't choose my operating sysems based on it's "coolness factor." I use what works. I'd still be using my Amiga if half-way-modern hardware wasn't so bloody expensive (and if I hadn't been zapped by a lightning pulse). Linux beats the pants off of Windows, and while I'm sure that BSD or QNX or whatever is "cooler" now, Linux works for what I want to do, and 2.4 will only widen its usability.

    As for 2.4 being "obsolete," everthing's relative. Look at it this way: now you can run 2.6-beta and feel superior.

    I have great confidence in Linus, and Alan, and all the others that have worked to make 2.4 a reality, and I'm glad they held off on it's release until they felt it was ready for prime time. So what if it took longer than the media expected; those people aren't booting by default into Linux, I'll tell you that. I suspect the reported "impatience of the Linux community," if you will, was largely their own manufacture. (Which is not to say I wasn't HOPING 2.4 would be released soon...but I expected it around March, and would still be content if it wasn't released today, knowing that when it WAS released, it would be stable and up-to-date.)

  • by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:22PM (#529776) Homepage
    Look here: /usr/src/linux/Documentation/Changes

    But, definately, look here;


    1. ...

      INSTALLING the kernel:

      - If you install the full sources, put the kernel tarball in a directory where you have permissions (eg. your home directory) and unpack it:

      1. gzip -cd linux-2.4.XX.tar.gz | tar xvf -

      Replace "XX" with the version number of the latest kernel.

      Do NOT use the /usr/src/linux area! This area has a (usually incomplete) set of kernel headers that are used by the library header files. They should match the library, and not get messed up by whatever the kernel-du-jour happens to be.

    (Yep, it stung me a couple times too! RTFM....)

  • by blakestah ( 91866 ) <> on Thursday January 04, 2001 @09:16PM (#529777) Homepage
    OK what else really needs to be in the kernel, what needs to be fixed.

    There are two things done by FreeBSD that are really much better than linux.

    Thing 1. A filesystem with soft updates. This creates a file system without journaling overhead that has a journalled file system's protection against power loss. It uses atomic updates of groups of files - see recent /. postings on Tux2. The linux versoin ought to be superior to FFS + soft updates, although the FreeBSD version works now. Journaled file systems should be added too, although I think soft updates, or phase trees, are better conceptually.

    Thing 2. Scheduling. Linux scheduling is getting worse with each new generation kernel. That is supposed to be addressed in the next series. There was even the suggestion to start with the FreeBSD scheduling algorithm, and try to improve from there. Nothing like open source in action.

  • by donglekey ( 124433 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @05:22PM (#529778) Homepage
    Someone should put the kernel on freenet if it isn't already there in some form.
  • by Tumbleweed ( 3706 ) on Thursday January 04, 2001 @04:45PM (#529783)
    >I can't imagine ANY serious Linux distributor that will put 2.4.0 on it's new version of Linux..

    Think RedHat! :)

"I don't believe in sweeping social change being manifested by one person, unless he has an atomic weapon." -- Howard Chaykin