Gnome/KDE Tutorials For Windows Users? 272
Aciel asks: "I recently decided to switch from Windows to Linux. I'd been held back by many things before (such as that my copies of Thief II, Quake III Arena, and Wheel of Time only ran on the former), but I was really ready to do it this time. But once I got Red Hat all set up, running Gnome, et cetera, I realized that I had no idea how to install anything. I of course knew about sites like linuxnewbie.com (and .org), but neither of them were really oriented towards people like me. One was oriented more towards programmers; the other towards idiots. But where to find a tutorial on Gnome, KDE, or Linux and X in general oriented towards people like myself, people with significant but not infinite computer DOS-based know-how?" If Unix (Linux/*BSD/etc) is ever to successfully woo users from Windows, something like this is a must.
"Everyone's always talking about how easy Linux is to use, and how much better it is. But then why can't I find a simple tutorial explaining the basics to me from a perspective I and other Windows users can understand? I'd love to learn--especially since I'm unwilling to shell out another 100 bucks for a newer OS that's slower than the one I've got (read: Windows ME)"
Re:Well... Exactly (Score:1)
Re:Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:1)
Re:Well... Exactly (Score:1)
The victim in question here has chosen to use RedHat. This means that the 'idiot' tutorials are the correct ones for
this situation.
*/
The only 'idiot' is the person who, when presented with a RedHat machine, can't bend it to his/her will. Anyone who dismisses RedHat out of hand and chooses, say, Debian simply because it's "l33ter" is, in my book, unemployable and not worth anyone's attention.
Google is my help screen (Score:1)
But Santa still came up short on a couple items:
1. A WYSIWYG editor that will run from a terminal screen, so I can edit XF86Conf when I screw it up and X won't start. Sorry, guys, but vi and emacs both suck bigtime for former Windows users!
2. A copy of Acrobat Reader in RPM form. Who are they kidding with this tar.gz stuff anyway?
Okay, I admit it: Windows has made me soft. But I'm not alone by a long shot!
One thing you got wrong (Score:1)
rpm -e
Actually, it's just "rpm -e program_name"
IMHO, a better answer to "what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk?" is to follow the instructions in the README or INSTALL file that came with it.
FreeBSD-esque site like this (Score:1)
Re:Well... Exactly (Score:1)
Re:Aren't those called... (Score:1)
Yeah, but how many people use C64's these days? I doubt I'll ever try out Lunix, since I was never a C64 owner. Perhaps you meant Linux?
Re:In the same boat (Score:1)
Not only was that a poor attempt at a troll, but you failed to explain to me why I'm a professional criminal. You actually expect to throw around unsubstantiated rumors as fact, AND get clear, concise help from me? Fuck off.
Re:Try Suse (Score:1)
think it's kind of silly to assume that we need a document that says if you do "this" in windows , you do "this" in
Linux.
Hmmm....so how do you propose to get Windows users over to Linux? Tell them to buy a distro, and RTFM?
*/
So how did these people learn about DOS/Windows? They just dick around until they figure out what works? No. They (people like my clueless father) get books on the subject and learn how to deal with the system. Is Windows 100% like a Mac? No? Then how the devil does Microsoft expect to take over the desktop marke....oh, wait.
The Linux world does NOT need to concentrate on turning Linux systems into Windows clones! You don't take the lead by following! If a distribution came about that supported hardware by installing Win32 drivers (supported, I guess, through Winelib), implemented a Win32-compatible Registry, and had a hacked version of KDE or GNOME that worked as a 100% clone of the Windows interface, it'd still be percieved as a piss-poor cheap-ass knock-off copy.
We need to WORK on EDUCATING people who want to try Linux, not leading them by the hand by making sure they don't have to learn anything new.
Re:Windows 2000 saved me! (Score:1)
You're comparing a new OS to an OS that's been around since the early 90s. When Linux was getting started, people were mousing around in Win3.1.
Get over it, people. Linux is based on standards which, when used, make a "standard" UNIX-like system. Microsoft more or less invented their own OS. Linux is not Windows. Stop expecting it to cater to you and turn into Windows just because you don't want to learn.
Re:I agree, but... (Score:1)
What is add/remove programs? I've never used it before. I always just run the install/remove executables from the install media or install directory, which is roughly what you would do on linux. I once removed an icon for Microsoft Network so the stupid 'would you like to subscribe to microsoft networking now?' would go away on boot, and as a result I now get a bunch of dll warnings on boot. My net point here is that you can't just assume that this magical 'add/remove programs' thing is some magical super-useful feature that linux absolutely needs - if it were that cool, I'd have found it and used it instead of just deleting the icons outright.
While we're on this subject, how the hell do you add an icon to the desktop? I've never been able to figure that one out either. It's certainly not obvious to me how it would be done.
My biggest problem with autoexec.bat/startup was that not only did I not know how it worked, but anything that I really wanted to do couldn't be done there anyway. Hence, I never tried to use it. You seem to imply that any idiot can just go in and muck with autoexec.bat/startup and get the results they want - that is as patently false for windows as for linux init scripts.
Yeah, where the hell is dialup networking? I've never had dialup on a windows machine, only ethernet. That said, I've always had to configure everything under windows by hand, and it's a complete pain in the ass. Linux is definitely easier.
The device manager, while very good when it works, is just terrible when it doesn't. I'd definitely have to say that linux device management is much, much more sane. (Except for mice that inexplicably don't work, non-standard mice are a bitch.)
Almost none of my machines run the web server, because I turn it off after I do installs. On windows, you have to get a separate web server from somewhere else, so I've never installed one there. Linux typically installs the web server with default configs, so you were probably running one without even knowing it.
-dentin
Re:Well... Exactly (Score:1)
Why not do some things better? (Score:1)
This is all bogus. The only reason people ask "what is the equivalent of Add/Remove" is because Windoze has "add/remove". There is no reason for such low-level concepts to be visible to the user.
In my opinion "add" should be executed by clicking on that "run this kool new software" icon shown in your browser, and "remove" should be "stop using the software" (or perhaps you have to drag the icon that appeared on your home page to the trash to get rid of the way of rerunning it).
Why forcing the poor user has to know about "installing" a piece of software. They don't need such knowledge. All they want is "make the machine do this interesting thing". Just because MicroSoft does it does not mean it is user-friendly.
From a practical point, the way to do this is:
Get rid of over-reliance on dynamic libraries by static-linking the binaries to any libraries other than libc and Xlib that you know are on the machine. Or use object services so the program at run-time can complain and perhaps get from the net any missing services, rather than refusing to run with DLL error.
Make the programs work without any "configuration" files (by making them use default values when the files are missing and writing new files when the user saves a configuration).
Make the linkers insert simple binary files in as raw data, so we can imbed large quantities of data into a program without a stupid filter to turn them into C initializers.
Not quite exactly... (Score:1)
There's a mistaken assumption that in order to "make it", one must cater to Windows users.
Maybe on a certain level this is true. But if you want a Windows-esque experience, use Windows.
Certain aspects of the GUI will probably be shared. But to completely duplicate the entire Windows UI is ridiculous.
I agree that there should be some fairly comprehensive tutorials for the "Too Smart for "For Dummies" crowd. But a familiarization is all they need, a boost along the learning curve. Not a redefinition of the learning curve.
I'm sorry, but Linux is, for most intents and purposes, Unix. Unix is obtuse, arcane, and very empowering to use. It requires a steeper learning curve than straight WIMP environments [tuxedo.org] such as Windows.
It'd be a mistake to castrate usability in the name of "user friendliness".
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
It _is_ built in (Score:1)
Mandrake does the same thing and if the other major distros are significantly different, I'd be surprised.
Red Hat's Getting Started Guide along with a thick book on Linux is the way to get started on Red Hat for Windows users. I've learned over the years that the included docs are good for reference, but if you're learning something for the first time, buy a book. The vendor's docs may be good, but a book is usually more tutorial in nature.
Too many differences (Score:1)
For instance the autoexec.bat analogous to rc.local but the startup folder is more like ~/.xinit or, in GNOME, the Startup Programs in GNOME Control Center. There may be a similar facility in KDE2. A proper description of the way each functions would easily be a page or so.
Some things are simpler. The Add/Remove Programs function is performed by your package manager. A basic static site or personal homepage can be setup using Apache just by putting the HTML in the correct directory. It pretty much runs out of the box.
Dialup Networking may be handled by distro or desktop specific tools, but a descript of the working of pppd and one or more generic tools would also be required for a comprehensive doc.
Device management would be a chapter by itself.
All of these functions are affected by user and permission features that are almost unknown in consumer versions of Windows. A lot of what Linux can do just does not have an equivalent in an out-of-the-box Windows install.
Re:or ask... (Score:1)
Re:I agree, (Score:1)
> What is the equivilent of add/remove programs?
to remove a programto install a program
> What is the equivilent of autoexec.bat/startup folder?
There are two mechanisms which work in order:
- The file
/etc/inittab
- The whole directory structure below the path
/etc/rc.d/init.d
> Where is dialup networking?To get this completely automatic is quite a task, to start with use one of either vwdial or kppp.
> Where is device manager/what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk? /lib/modules directory tree.
In the kernel
You put it in the modules collection in the
That trite I know, but we really need more detail
> How do you do this 'webserver' thing that linux is supposed to be so good at?
You load the Apache Server.
( SuSE has it installed as part of the system because they use it to drive their help system. )
Starting with Linux. (Score:1)
Do we really want to be this? (Score:1)
Once Linux is ready for the mainstream, will it really suit geeks? Once all control of the operating system goes to 'the default setting work fine', is there really a way that one can make a server-oriented system perform better than a GUI-running-staroffice system?
Sure, one could split distributions and all of that, but in the end that would leave us with multiple kernel forks (not a Good Thing), quite a few more distros (depends on how you look at it), and more spread out and unmotivated developers (not ALL, but to the point of too many people saying 'I'm only doing this because they're paying me to').
And then what have we become?
All O/S's have their problems (Score:1)
However-that being said-Linux sucks far less. I get alot of info and questions answered with dejanews and just plain bedtime reading!Que publishes a book called Using Linux that is my bible.If you want to really learn you have to be prepared to study and read.There are no shortcuts worth taking.If that slows Linux down on the average users desktop-so be it.
Frankly I believe Linux is ready right now for the average desktop.The problem is it has to come *pre-loaded* and ready to go like Windows and Mac's.That's the kicker.Until the average user can walk into their local computer super-store and see all the dual-boot machines loaded up and ready to go it's not going to happen!Plain and simple people will use whatever O/S is on the machine.
Good help is hard to find... (Score:1)
What I'm missing is somewhere to go and ask what I'd consider basic questions of an unusual nature. Such as, "Why does my FTPd-BSD have problems with PAM authentication?" or "Where are my LOG_FTP messages going?".
I can't just run onto IRC and ask it, because I'm told to either "read the docs" (thanks, did that, no help) or "search the web" (again, did that, no help) or met with stony silence. I'm loathe to keep asking friends to fix things on my system because I don't learn anything by it, and really would like to. :)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Better manual pages are the answer (Score:1)
--Gfunk
My remark may be regarded as flamebait... (Score:1)
As for learning resources, HardcoreLinux [hardcorelinux.com] is a site that doesn't rehash moldy tutorials and howtos. The content is exclusive to HardcoreLinux and is easy to follow. The book Sam's Teach Yourself Linux in 24 hours is also a good learning tool. It's got the right mix of gui and command line lessons and is perfect for a beginner.
RTFM (Score:1)
Re:Better manual pages are the answer (Score:1)
To take your example, let's have a brief search for what happens at startup:
$ man startup
No manual entry for startup
$ man -k startup
vga_disabledriverreport (3) - makes svgalib not emit any startup messages
$ man boot
No manual entry for boot
$ man -k boot
[Yields 10 entries, the most useful of which is the scary bootparams page...]
$ man -k initialization
[Yields 38 entries, almost all about Tcl/Tk or curses...]
The problem with man is no so much that the information is not there, it's more that there's just a single page for all levels and types of reader, and it's damn difficult to find out which page you want to read anyway.
The Linux PocketBook (Score:1)
It included Redhat and covered the move from windows to Linux with installation and how to set up a variety of servers. It was done in easy to understand language with little dillydallying.
The Second edition of the book, released a year later covered both Redhat 6.0 and Caldera 2.0.
The homepage for Australian Personal Computer magazine is http://apcmag.com
say what? (Score:1)
>is to use, and how much better it is.
Whatchoo talkin bout Willis? Linux is better, more stable, powerful, reliable, and configurable, sure, but it's always been harder to use than Windows.
Right now, you still have to be willing to *teach yourself* a lot of what you need to know. Those wanting a push-button operating system (including many in this thread) should stick with Microsoft. If you want a better OS and you're willing to RTFM (HOWTOs, O'Reilly, etc.), then welcome aboard.
thellama
Re:Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:1)
Re:Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:1)
Linux HowTo for DOS-babies... (Score:1)
How many people do you know that have had Linux as their very FIRST OS? (not saying that's a bad thing)
Re:Perhaps we *don't* want more newbies? (Score:1)
Re:Well... Exactly (Score:1)
Ahh yes... those were the days (Score:1)
Like you (back with Linux 2.0.x), the only thing I was frustrated with Linux is not knowing how to install programs.
That book has an entire chapter dedicated to installing programs.
Once you get into tar -xzvpf program.of.choice-1.00.00.tar.gz;./configure;make
It is actually the way you install programs is part of the reason that Linux is superior to Windows. As a SysAdmin, it is hard as hell to push installs to Windows machine. With Linux workstation, I can easily telnet/ssh into the workstation, install, setup icons and defaults and exit: all without the user having to do shit and without having the user to reboot.
Can anybody name me 5 Windows programs that do not require you to reboot? Didn't think so.
Re:I agree, (Score:1)
--------
Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
You don't want to learn KDE/GNOME... (Score:1)
The reason there is almost no documentation for people like you is because it's assumed that you will want to get a little deeper into the system and learn the CLI (command-line interface). This is probably what you want to do. Besides, unless you have a new machine, KDE/GNOME will be too slow for you (and even if you have a new box, it's still nice to have the extra speed).
Here's a quick list of useful commands:
Some packages you'll want to have a look at sometime:
Sorry, I have to cut this list short. Other duties are calling. Slashdotters: please fill in what I have missed!
--------
Genius dies of the same blow that destroys liberty.
Quit Crying and Do Something (Score:1)
So, stop whining. There is an old proverb, "it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness. If you see a need fill it, if you find something lacking make it better. That's what it's all about.
If you can't handle it go back to Windows(tm) or whatever platform you came from... Linux is not that hard to learn, especially if you are somewhat computer literate as the original questioner claimed.
--
Re:Honestly (Score:1)
I think distros should make special distros for desktop use, no uneeded services started would be a start. Windows user expect this dump klicking, the don't know about the massive power CLI can enable, or howto admin a multiuser, multitasking, multithreading, up to it's GUI network enabled, OS. The average windows user can't even control his Windows crap2001(tm). Very impotant IMHO is: Linux needs a good www browser, like IE is, one time they had some competition, and couldn't deliver the usual crap which might be repaired with the next service pack ~500 MB, or cost $$$ for the new shitload2003(tm)...:-))
Honestly, without a good browser Linux will have no chance. And I'm in doubt if I would like it, since most people know, I use linux only, I don't get, those "help support please" calls from friends who use windows, anymore.
Michael
Re:All resources are online or on hard drive (Score:1)
I am currently pissed off at Microsoft because I sent them a customer support user request on Saturday and it is now Tuesday and I am still waiting.
So maybe in the Microsoft world people don't call help lines and receive it in a timely manner either.
"In this life, you're on your own" --Prince
Documentation "Owners" needed (Score:2)
Slight change in subject:
A friend of mine described why he thought open source was such a great idea. It's not *just* the "source should be free" thing or even that you can read the source to learn what it really does or even that you can hack said source. The great thing about open source, he opinioned, was that it would prevent all the bazillion different flavors of U*x that sprang up a decade or two ago. Instead of lots of little incompatible systems, all competeing against each other for market space (and none really getting critical market share like Microsoft now has), Linux and GNU are assured of one single source base with all the really good ideas in it. Everyone can just go to the public source and get what you already know to be the latest and greates version.
This seems to work well for *source code*, but I haven't found anything like that for *documentation*. I've seen lots of different, good ideas for documentation here. It reminds me, in fact, of the fractured U*x world before open source.
So I'm wondering now if there needs to be official documentation owners, just like open source has official source module owners now. The idea is to have someone "own" the documentation to make sure it gets updated, has all the latest and greates info, and gets into the distributions in a format that is the most useful (for those out there complaining that windoze documentation has out-stripped the Linux counterparts.
Hmm,
Gnome and KDE For Dummies books already exist (Score:2)
Gnome for Linux for Dummies [amazon.com]
and
KDE for Linux for Dummies [amazon.com]
Whether or not they're any good is for someone else to determine, I find the whole idea very disconcerting.
Windows 2000 saved me! (Score:2)
I don't even have to count, because it has not yet happened to me.
I'm glad you enjoy Linux, but there are other options out there to Windows 98, and not all of them mean reinvesting in all new software.
Re:DOS/Windoze Guru needs help too (Score:2)
Re:Perhaps we *don't* want more newbies? (Score:2)
My guess is you were a newbie once yourself.
Re:Windows 2000 saved me! (Score:2)
Sigh, I used to be a Unix admin. After a while you mature and realize that doing everything the hard way isn't cool... it's inefficient.
Re:Not quite exactly... (Score:2)
From a certain (i.e. business) perspective
Granted. I'm talking from a functionality POV. To compete with Windows, it doesn't have to necessarily become just like Windows.
You are making an assumption that in order to cater to Windows users, one must provide a Windows-esque experience.
No. I'm saying that those who want a Windows-esque experience should use Windows. Those who don't mind a user interface that looks similar to, but doesn't act exactly like, Windows, were not included in the statement.
Also, I'm not saying there aren't a great many things Linux couldn't learn from the Windows system interfaces. I'm basically griping about all the people who whine just because things don't work EXACTLY like Windows.
Set up an NT box as a router? No. I'd rather keep it that way too. A linux router? Yup. Kinda tough the first time I did it (did it during my clueless newbie stage). But the more you do that kind of thing, the easier it gets.
We should be talking about tutorials and training and such...
Yes. But for whom do you write these? From what basic level do you begin at? That's the sticking point. Should Linux's help system be SO exhaustive that it basically encompasses a CompSci degree? Or should the documentation be concise and to the point for those who already know mostly what they're doing? Or should it be stings of "Do this...And this...And this...And this..."?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Re:Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:2)
Most people who don't do IT for a living are not going to be as driven to this as you were. Take it now from the perspective of my aunt, who is a riding instructor. Heck, what benefit does she derive from switching in the first place? Lack of reboots? She only has the computer on for about a half hour a day anyway.
--
Re:Try Suse (Score:2)
IT people don't need beginner tutorials. You may perhaps have noticed that people not in the IT field use computers too.
--
Re:Well... Exactly (Score:2)
Windows became a desktop standard WITHOUT all of that stuff pre-existing. That all came along after Windows became popular.
Of course, none of this will be able to happen without a set of standards.
What standard did Windows follow, again?
Computer standards (that work) aren't pushed down from above, they're pulled up from below.
The LSB will succeed because it will adopt successful things. Whatever interface standard is eventually dominant in Linux will be successful first, then made standard, not the other way around.
-
Re:In the same boat (Score:2)
"Leave the gun, take the canoli."
I'll try to answer these (Score:2)
1. The distros generally ship a GUI package-manager: Yast, Gnorpm, RPMdrake or Kpackage (or others). Most of these let you install packages from another server as well. Packages can be installed by command-line ("rpm -Uvh package.rpm"), or by using a filemanager. The rpm-packages is mostly associated with a package-manager, which lets you start one by double-clicking on a package.
2. The runlevel-folders and rc.local. The normal GUI-runlevel is 5 (for Red Hat and Mandrake at least). For a full and nice-looking init, put a symlink to a startup-script under
If you just want to start something, and don't have a fancy startup-script or doesn't know how to create one, just put it in
Look at the way the symlinks in the runleveldirs are named. S75httpd means that the webserver (apache) starts later than S10network (A K in front means kill, S means start).
3. Most distros ship a program for this, easily found under your system-menu. Either Red Hat dialup, Kppp, MandrakeConf.
4. Mandrake has a nice GUI-program called HardDrake. Don't know if Red Hat has this, but it should be possible to install for other distros.
Cannot answer for SuSE or Caldera, but under Red Hat, you're mostly on your own. Look at tools like scanpci, insmod, modprobe, the file "/etc/modules.conf" etc...
5. If installed it normally has configuration under
Re:I agree, (Score:2)
Here it goes...
On redhat or probably any other RPM based system (Mandrake, SuSE, etc) the package manager is 'rpm'. There is a GUI frontend called gnorpm that probably does what add/remove would do. On Debian based systems there's apt (apt-get, apt-cache) and gnome-apt for a frontend.
First of all, Linux boot up is a bit more complicated than DOS bootup. The first thing that is run by the linux kernel is "init". This is a compiled executable (there is not reason it cannot be but that's another subject) that then executes the 'rc' script. (/etc/init.d/rc on debian, redhat is probablyrc0.d
rc0.d/K90sysklogd
rc0.d/K30setserial
rc0.d/K25hwclock.sh
rc0.d/K20makedev
rc0.d/S30urandom
rc0.d/S20sendsigs
rc0.d/S31umountnfs.sh
rc0.d/S40umountfs
rc0.d/S90halt
rc0.d/K20logoutd
rc0.d/S35networking
rc0.d/S10portmap
rc0.d/K20inetd
rc0.d/K14ppp
rc0.d/K12kerneld
rc0.d/K89pcmcia
rc0.d/K01gdm
rc0.d/K20ssh
rc0.d/K10rplay
rc0.d/K20apache
rc0.d/K20postgresql
ie all services are to be killed because we're shutting down. (Blast <PRE> filtering!)
Dunno. Use your package manager and search for things like 'dial' and 'ppp' etc.
There is no "cute" device manager. You can look in /proc for a lot of info about the running system and what peripherals are attached. Installing drivers for devices is a bit more complex. Basically what they (usually) are are kernel modules. These are usually specific to a kernel version and kernel versions aren't standardised across distributions which means that you usually have to recompile a driver (assuming source is available) for your kernel if you're running anything but a really mainstream linux distribution. This used to be RedHat 6.2 but I don't know anymore. In short, installing drivers not provided by your distro is at least a pain in the ass and at most impossibly difficult.
It's the best in its price range. (And bests some outside of its price range) :d I'll point you to the docs because this is a very vague question: apache.org docs [apache.org]
--
while($s ne "just another perl hacker"){ $s.=["a".."z"," "]->[rand 25] }
Honestly (Score:2)
I would love to see more people using Loki's setup installer. It is quite pretty and easy to follow, but it still requires not only a working X, but also GTK. Possibly a curses based setup utility is the answer...
Better manual pages are the answer (Score:2)
Re:a good book... (Score:2)
The best thing about it is the nice balance between:
- "here's what you need to do" in a step by step, recipie type way,
- and "here's why you need to do what you need to do" which you can use to understand what you're doing
The former helps you get started with the basics you need to Get Things Done Quickly And Easily ("how do I set up the boot process, how do I arrange my home directory, how do I automate frequent, repetitive tasks...") while the latter segues into the things you'll need to know to start breaking the rules once you know what you're doing, and thus Get Even More Things Done By Having Complete Control Over Your Tools.The depth & breadth of information might be overwhelming if you don't recognize some of the material coming into the book , but you'll quickly appreciate the overview it gives you of the many things that Unix makes easy -- shell interaction with the machine, shell shortcuts & history, process management, input & output streams, pattern matching, file management, file security, resource usage, searching through files, editing files from the shell (sed, awk, etc) through editors (vi, emacs), and beyond (perl), etc. I've got two shelves full of O'Reilly books, alot of which cover the same things the Power Tools book does, but still it's the one I come back to over and over again. I bought it after having read most of the others, and I wish I'd come across it sooner, because it made everything Fall Into Place & Make Sense for me.
And though I don't think I could possibly rate it any more highly (unless it went into X-Windows &/or network stuff a bit more), it's worth adding that no, I'm not being paid to go on & on about it -- I just think it's that good... :)
Me too! (Score:2)
Just wanted to say I know how you feel
Dave
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Re:My Wife's Hypertext Research (Score:2)
Re:You Need a Human:A Suggestion (Score:2)
Re:Better manual pages are the answer (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the man and info pages included in nearly every distro end up being out-of-date with the newer utilities/libs/etc actually included with the distribution, and even when you find a page that is up-to-date, it could be (and usually is) written to such an advanced target audience that it is of absolutely no help to a newbie who is trying to figure out how to accomplish a basic task such as "I want to print my Word document. My printer doesn't seem to work. How do I install my printer?"
I dare you to have a new user use "man" to answer that question. They will never even think to enter "man lpr" and even if they stumble on it, few will understand the terminology or background used in the document well enough to figure out what the hell is going on. Most newbies don't even know what a "printer queue" or "spooling" is, so using those terms to describe printing doesn't help them at all.
Linux dispells ignorance for windows users (Score:2)
Tom Piwowar of the "Computer Guys" show puts this in perspective:
Right on, brother! (Score:2)
(You should definately read Jef Raskin's "The Humane Interface". He expands on many of the concepts you mention.)
The add/remove thing in windows is pretty stupid. In the current GUI paradigm, you add something to a to somewhere by dragging it and dropping it, but Microsoft forces the user to go through "Add new software" route, thus adding needless modes and complexity to the process. In windows, there are ordinary folders for documents, and then there are special folders like "My Documents", "Dial-up networking", "Printers", and other such folders with 'special' behaviors that break consistency with the behavior of regular documents and folders. Breaking consistency in a GUI system is A Bad Thing(tm). Microsoft never designed windows to be easy, they designed it to be different than MacOS.
For all of MacOS' technical faults, installation of programs was consistent with the drag and drop nature of the UI. In those heady days of System 7, you installed a program by dragging the folder it was inside from the CD-ROM or floppy and dropping it to wherever the hell you wanted to put it. Everything was either a folder or a file that went into a folder. No folders (in most cases) had any "special" behaviors that were inconsistent with the behavior of your run-of-the-mill user-created folder. MacOS was also built like a tank. Any program could run without the need for a config file. Preference files were seperate files (what I call "protected configuration"), not one big, easily corruptable binary database. A config file got busted, you trashed it and it was rebuilt the next time you ran the program (what I call "regenerative configuration"). Enough metadata was kept in the file system (though the dual fork system) to rebuild the file typing database system if it got munged. It's a system like this that users need. Too many people do too little with their computers because they are so afraid of permanently screwing them up, and we have the folks in Redmond to thank for this. In end-user land, it's not the crash that kills, it's the permanent screw up.
I am seriously considering ripping off GNUstep's file bundle code and putting that into some form of Linux distribution. The biggest technical problem that desktop linux faces right now is finding a good way to describe what consistutes an application and the applets, documents, libraries, and other stuff that go along with it. People have tried with RPM and dpkg, but these systems make an OS installation damn easy to destroy, and spread the application installation so far apart it becomes unmanagable. Putting an application installation into a single folder and GUI-wise pretending that it's a single executable is the best way that anyone has ever done it. A HURD bundle service would kick ass (If HURD could just add hardware support for, well, just about everything I'd be set).
Keep up the good work with FLTKAll resources are online or on hard drive (Score:2)
First, recognize that linux can do just about any network function possible on a computer. Most of these require some sys admin skills to accomplish, and have HOWTOs included with the distribution.
Other. simpler functions, have a variety of ways to receive help. Usenet is a great resource for linux. So are the help documents for KDE/GNOME. So are man pages. So are web sites.
In general, for linux, you NEVER call a help line, or consult a hard copy. The references are on the computer or on the net. Just search for what you want with Google, check the HOWTOs, acclimatize to using man -k and locate, and enjoy the ride.
You will eventually come to realize that help resources for linux dwarf those available for vendor operating systems, since the help inevitably comes from the user base.
How to think in Unix (Score:2)
Think UNIX by Jon Lasser [fatbrain.com] is one of the best books on this subject. The book is geared toward Windows people who want to learn UNIX.
It not only shows individual commands, but it also explains why UNIX does things this way. It is a very generic UNIX book (would be useful for Linux to Solaris to FreeBSD to AIX).
Missing the point (Score:2)
I think that the packaged documentation for most distros generally does a good job of this, and are one of the most important arguments for buying a packaged distro, instead of downloading it (remember, free as in speech, not necessarily free as in beer). These basic manuals generally do a less good job of making you fundamentally understand how Linux works. You'll learn linuxconf, but you won't really learn shell scripts.
Luckily, that's what howtos are for. Linux is not easy, I won't deny that, but with a basic user's manual, and if necessary a look at the howtos and man pages, it should take no longer to build up Linux proficiency than it took the user to build up Windows proficiency.
Re:Linux on desktops? Maybe... (Score:2)
Red Hat and friends may not have all of those things that you mentioned. However, this does not mean that "Linux" lacks them, because they ARE present in Debian.
Debian has the Debian Menu System. All window managers and packages use this system by default, so your default menu in X will always have all of the installed software.
The packaging system in Debian is amazing (to anyone other than FreeBSD users; I've heard good things about ports). Since all 4,000+ packages are actually contained in the Debian project, rather than "Contribs", strict guidelines can be enforced on how these packages interact with one another, exactly where files go, etc. This is why the above menu system is possible. It's also why all packages are configured with a nice interface at installation time, rather than "Oh, I wonder where it put the config files and what I have to do with them?" And there's the ever-popular guessing game of whether or not the updated RPM will replace your old config files with its own (moving your old ones to config.rpmsave and probably breaking your setup until you fix it), install new config files as config.dist, or do something else entirely. Debian gives you the choice by asking what you want to do when the package is installed (Keep your file, use the new one, see the differences).
Some people have pointed out to me that RPM-based distributions are capable of doing this. However, it doesn't really matter that they CAN, because, with the possible exception of Conectiva, they DON'T. I strongly disagree with those that say that Debian is more difficult to use than RedHat; Debian does also have nice GUI tools, and more importantly, the underlying structure is clean, consistent, and functional.
I used RedHat for a year (my first year with Linux), and we still use it at work. But everywhere where I have a choice, I use Debian. It's just easier.
Sotto la panca, la capra crepa
Need into to principle and operations both (Score:2)
I tried to make the switch a while back and retreated in frustration and for lack of time. But I found that there were really TWO things that I wanted:
1) A good primer on the basic principles and structure of *nix OS's.
2) A set of condensed HOWTOs designed to get a clueful windows user up to speed quickly with Gnome/KDE.
These are really two very different things, but I think they would be complementary and they are both necessary: A "Monkey-see, monkey-do" starter gets you up and running quickly, while the *nix principles book gives you a basis for understanding what you're really doing when you go throug the motions outlined in the HOWTOs.
books i found useful (Score:2)
I started on this quest to master *nix almost three years ago, and I still can't believe how much I have yet to learn! You really can go as far as you want with this.
Anyhoo, here're the names of a few books I found exceptionally useful:
Running Linux (O'Reilly)Slackware Linux Unleashed (Sams)
Unix Power Tools (O'Reilly)
Linux In Plain English (MIS)
Linux In A Nutshell (O'Reilly)
Maximum Linux Security (Sams)
Learning The Bash Shell (O'Reilly)
Essential System Administration (O'Reilly)
There are also plenty of specialised books that I highly recommend, such as:
Learning The vi Editor (O'Reilly)Apache, The Definitive Guide (O'Reilly)
TCP/IP Network Administration (O'Reilly)
Samba Unleashed (Sams)
The Linux Network (MIS)
There are quite a few newer books out there now targetting the recent migrant. Try the Visual Kickstart (I think I remembered that name correctly!) or Visually (blue & white series, lotsa pictures) series. My wife has also reported that the Idiot's Guide books are much better than the Dummies books! *grin* She's also reported good luck with the Sams Teach Yourself In (insert time here) series. They have distro-specific and desktop-specific tomes. Their KDE book looked like it might be helpful to you.
I hope this was useful to ^someone^!
Cheers,
~wmaheriv
Maturity (Score:2)
The question of an "Add-Remove Programs" equivalent is a good example. It's not enough to say "Use GnoRPM or KPackage". Both programs have tons of geek-oriented features that are very useful for the system administrator, but are totally bewildering to somebody used to a simple Windows CPL applet.
Now, it wouldn't be hard to tweak these programs to provide a simplified interface for most add-remove tasks that any Windows person would recognize. But nobody's done this. Why? Because this is "free" software. If these were proprietary systems attempting to compete with Windows, somebody would have been told to make sure all the control-panel equivalents were in place. But on these projects, things don't happen until somebody volunteers to do them. In fact, the volunteer who implements a feature is often the same person who identified the need for that same feature.
The bottom line is that a real Add-Remove equivalent will appear when Gnome and KDE appear on enough desktops to create a continuing refrain of "Where's Add-Remove programs?" Whereupon somebody will decide that it's easier to implement this feature than to keep answering the question. And this will iterate through all the common GUI bells and whistles until both Gnome and KDE can be configured to be indistinguishable (to the end user) from any flavor of Windows or Mac.
Assuming this whole crazy endeavor lasts that long, of course!!!!
__________________
Hear Hear (Score:2)
You can make all the newbie references you want, but until someone puts out more comprehensive and easier to find, more understandable documentation, don't expect the rest of the world to jump on Linux.
One questions... (Score:2)
That's the impression I got when I first switched to Linux 3 years ago (and again last year). That I was formerly a Windows user and, therefore, an idiot. (Trying to read a man page, after being used to the GUI in Windows help, was an exercise in frustration). Perhaps it's a backlash being performed subliminally by the Linux documenters?
Re:In the same boat (Score:2)
A guide or tutorial with phrases like "doing x in linux is like doing y in Windows", etc.
One place you might want to check out is The Linux Documentation Project [linuxdoc.org]. They have a lot of volunteer-written documentation, including the "From DOS/Windows to Linux HOWTO". It gives a decent introduction to at least let you get around your system.
KDE2 (Score:2)
Re:C'mon now.... (Score:2)
I feel for the poster. Computer downtime sucks. I know I have limited amount of time to 'fiddle' with my system as every hour it isn't up and running is an hour of worktime I am out. When the time comes for a major overhaul (like setting aside that weekend to pull an engine in your car) you want to make sure all the materials are there and ready.
Linux will crawl into more common usage, but it needs some pushing and coaxing. The first step is the acceptance that the broader user group has limited time to LEARN a new system.
Re:got documents? (Score:2)
Re:Slide along laterally and die? (Score:2)
I don't think every person who has successfully installed and successfully run Linux are automatically obligated to help every schmoe who wants to install it. Some people try to install it just so they can 'belong' to this odd secret society. BUT, if you are hanging out in a location that a newbie will go for assistance and claim to be a Linux expert, that is akin to hanging out in the ER while saying you are a doctor. You can expect people coming to you for help.
Read books, and then play with it... (Score:2)
Because it's not true. The real advantages of Linux over Windows -- the command-line, the ability to look under the hood and the fact that every action and byte on your system is ultimately under your control - aren't things that can be explained to you. You'll have to play around a while before the light goes on.
That said, the best thing to do is probably to buy a book. There are a bunch of desktop- or distribution- specific bookls that sound like they're written from the perspective you want.
KDE, by the way, does have the sort of general documentation you want. Select "Help" from the K menu or type khelpcenter & at a command prompt. IIRC, Gnome has similar documents.
a good book... (Score:2)
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
Re:or ask... (Score:2)
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
Emb. Lx. for Dummies . . . real Lx. for hackers (Score:2)
Re:I agree, (Score:2)
Useful utilities:
Editor: pico
Terminal: minicom
Mail reader: pine
Web "browser": lynx
clock synch: xntpd (look in /etc/rc.d/init.d)
last - shows last users logged in
nmap - shows ports eg "nmap localhost"
vmstat shows cpu etc status over time, eg: "vmstat 2 5" (=5x at 2s intervals)
cat /proc/cpuinfo tells you your cpu details :)
cat /proc/interrupts - tells you your interrupts
pstree [-a][-G] - see process tree
dnsquery - better nslookup :)
Config tools:
Linux configure (x) linuxconf
Print configurator (x) printtool
configure network netconf
Commands, general Linux:
Type a file cat
Type a file: more
Type a file (better): less
See file details: stat
Make a directory: mkdir
Allow all to r/w: chmod 666
Allow all to r/w/x: chmod 777
find a file: locate
refresh locate database: updatedb
See all processes: ps xa See free memory: free:
Help on a command: man
Login as other: su
Create user: /usr/sbin/useradd
Set password: passwd []
See disk status: df
Rotate logs: rotatelogs
Write clock to cmos: /sbin/clock -w
see environment sets: printenv
display tty settings: stty -a
see linux version: uname -r
make a tar.gz file: tar -czf
mail quick msg: echo 'message' | mail mvw@fido.ca
See text contents of an exe: strings |grep
cookie: /usr/games/fortune
Network commands:
configure network netconf
network status (live) netstat
IP configuration ifconfig
dns lookup nslookup
dns lookup, full nslookup, then "ls -d "
There's a lot more. And I carry this with me wherever I go... :)
---
Re:Aren't those called... (Score:2)
.
Red Hat website (Score:3)
http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/ [redhat.com]
Re:Perhaps we *don't* want more newbies? (Score:3)
Seriously, man, Linux needs newbies. It's the only way the number of Linux users will grow. I first learned Linux back in 1997 with a UMSDOS-based distro (because Slackware was an evil bitch and wouldn't install properly). While I had many years of experience with DOS and Windows and the like, I'd never really touched Unix before. And now? Now I'm coding in C and Perl, creating web sites from scratch with the gimp and vim, that sort of thing.
In every newbie there's the potential for development. Please don't forget that.
My Wife's Hypertext Research (Score:3)
Just a joke (Score:3)
Well, what else is there?
Try Suse (Score:3)
1) buy a distribution. Suse Linux has an excellent users manual. Well laid out, I know many an NT user who found this one useful.
2) Read the docs. Again from a Suse perspective , they have an excellent knowledge base and website with tonnes of docs.
3) Stop expecting "doing x ni linux is like doing y in windows". I think you need to understand the underpinnings of Unix a bit more. Windows NT dulls the mind of an IT person. Seriously, flame me away, but you are so shielded from what the OS is doing that eventually you think the world is controlled through an applet.
4) O'Rielly publishes tones of books, they're a hell of an investment since you will use them regularly, I have been using Linux as my main OS and at work (programming fibre optics simulations) for 4 years and I still refer to them.
I think it's kind of silly to assume that we need a document that says if you do "this" in windows , you do "this" in Linux. There are docs, there are books, of excellent quality and free (on the net). Read them first. If you buy a distribution, you will always get a manual, which requires reading before installation.
I simply don't understand the griping, you move to a new OS , wether it's end user, programmer, IT , admin...you should be prepared to learn how that new OS works.
Straight from article's title (Score:3)
Everyone seems to just jump right in and complain about how hard it is to get help for Linux in general, but the article specifically asks about GNOME and KDE. I don't know how well Windows users are catered to, but there is the GNOME User's Guide [redhat.com], as well as one for the K Desktop Environment [kde.org]. I hope these help.
Re:Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:3)
I think both can coexist, in the very nature of seperate distributions. Even on the same computer, you should have the option of installing idiot friendly parts (probably a bunch of nice front ends and helpful docs). There's a lot of work in this area, but it's still only half easy, and for other things you have to delve into the real linux stuff. I'd love a system that is as easy to use as windows, stable as linux, with the option to drop down to console and cfg files when I need to tweak something complicated. But for all of my daily tasks (setup and everyday use), I'd love for linux to be point-and-click obvious. Right now, I think it's safe to say that linux distro's are a little lopsided in favor of the tech side, and could use some work on being idiot friendly.
This excludes, of course, distros that try to avoid any bloat at all... idiot friendly is in it's nature more bloated than console-type stuff.
Just a thought from a simliar windows-experienced-trying-to-get-into-linux guy.
James
Emacs doesn't suck (cheat sheet) (Score:4)
A WYSIWYG editor that will run from a terminal screen
What do you mean "terminal screen"? A WYSIWYG editor won't easily run in the VGA's text mode, as WYSIWYG editors require proportional fonts.
Sorry, guys, but vi and emacs both suck bigtime for former Windows users!
I agree with you on vi(le); try pico, joe, jed, etc. But Emacs isn't that hard. The seven commands you need to know for Emacs are
- open: Ctrl+x Ctrl+f
- save: Ctrl+x Ctrl+s
- quit: Ctrl+x Ctrl+c
- start selection: Ctrl+space
- cut: Ctrl+w
- copy: Alt+w
- paste: Ctrl+y
What's so hard about that?Tetris on drugs, NES music, and GNOME vs. KDE Bingo [pineight.com].
Re:Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:4)
I cursed and cursed. I learned emacs. I unlearned all those windows keystrokes. (not really, its kool to switch my fingers to windows mode on a win box). I killed gnome and kde and installed a gui that used only a few megs (in code and execution) and was as foreign looking to Windoze as possible, Windowmaker [windowmaker.org]
But as I learned to make major changes to my system without a gui or goddamn, *f-ing rebooting every 5 minutes I began to feel that godlike power agian that hooked me on computers back when I was 9. I began to love Linux. I feel natural with it and can really get around.
Funny, but just after that transition phase I took an engineering management role in a dot com and help in the setup of a several hundred K in unix hardware (smp sun boxes, linux, raid arrays, yada). I can tell you being able to live at the command line (and I mead live - getting help, light browsing, writing code (java and c++), working with multiple apps, email) was incredibly useful - I'd say mecessary [everything2.com]
Though I've said alot, I don't know what to say. Sometimes I actually don't want every joe 6 pack to be running linux. The prideful part of me says, "learn the goddamn system and stop complaining. And if you can't, puleeze go back to windows. Grandma shouldn't be anywhere near a linux box anyway." The human part of me (oh, pride IS human, Doh [everything2.com]) says, "*sniff*, try these:"
linuxhelp.net [linuxhelp.net]
linuxhelp.org [linuxhelp.org]
linuxselfhelp.com [linuxselfhelp.com]
linuxnewbie.org [linuxnewbie.org]
How To's [linuxdoc.org]
Running Linux (Score:4)
Read it, live it, love it. Running Linux.
"Me Ted"
You are wrong. Re:Try Suse (Score:5)
My point is this: learning should be a part of the using process (as it is with windows..it's usable when you don't understand everything). Learning should NOT be a prerequisite to doing anything useful with the OS.
I believe it would be immensely helpful to have "doing x in Linux is like doing y in windows." Your elitism, saying "read them first" and so forth are exactly what have turned me off from Linux. Several times I have installed Linux on various computers and got it to work, but have been frustrated because I don't know how to do many simple things and documentation is either simple to the point where it's not helpful or complex to the point where I don't know what they're talking about. Many times I have gone to #linux on DALnet or something and asked a simple question, only to be told "Read the Fucking Howto's, it's in there" by several people. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get help there, and I have nowhere else to turn when the HOWTO's have failed me.
I'm not a stupid guy. I'm the resident hardware guy at my dorm, make $18 an hour teaching a guy A+ and how to do various advanced things in Windows, and I learn quickly. But I don't have large amounts of time time to devote to learning linux due to school, gf, etc. There is absolutely nothing out there to help a guy like me pick up how to do simple things in Linux quickly. That is what the Ask Slashdotter was trying to convey. Such a thing CAN exist, and such a thing WOULD help large numbers of people (slightly below the no-gf-having geek loser Linux elite and slightly above the novice programmer) learn and USE linux.
Everyone complains that Linux is the domain of 1337 h4x0r5 or whatever. It is not that hard, but it does take an investment of time people like myself cannot make. We are the next logical step for linux to take over. The help the poseter wants CAN and WILL make that happen.
We don't need to make Linux easier like everyone has always said. WE NEED TO FACILITATE LEARNING IT. Linux isn't inherently hard, but it is a leap moving from someone who is really good at windows to someone who can effectively use Linux.
Well... Exactly (Score:5)
Of course, none of this will be able to happen without a set of standards. Support the LSB [linuxbase.org]!
Slide along laterally and die? (Score:5)
Not a site, it should be build in. (Score:5)
ONLY THEN a typical user without that much computer skills can savely wipe any OS from his harddisk and start fresh with Linux, knowing he won't be facing questions he can't resolve without having to peek on a website he can't visit because his system doesn't contain any OS.
Which opens up the first goal: a program that first checks the system of the user if the distro he wants to install on that system is able to run the distro, and if all hardware is supported. This program should obviously run under win32 or typical other OS the user will leave behind. (Microsoft has this kind of program to test if your system is able to run windows2000 and which parts of your system need new drivers, where to get them etc).
I think this will only succeed if the people who now work on Linux (i.e. program on the kernel, window managers and other key system items) change their focus from the "all knowing geek who wants to control every freaking byte of his system" towards the more mainstream average kinda user, who needs/wants help along the way. This will be tough because the people who DO work on the kernel/key system items ARE mostly people who want to control every damn setting of their system, which is EXACTLY the reason why they don't use windows.
--
Help (Score:5)
I'm not sure if this is obvious or not, but if you have a good bit of free time, reading through posts on
I agree, (Score:5)
What is the equivilent of add/remove programs?
What is the equivilent of autoexec.bat/startup folder?
Where is dialup networking?
Where is device manager/what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk?
How do you do this 'webserver' thing that linux is supposed to be so good at?
You Need a Human:A Suggestion (Score:5)
I had no knowledge of what to do about it, couldn't find any man page on point, and had no one to ask, so I wiped it off the box and started over.
Now I'm reading reading reading about security *before* I go online again. What I don't understand is: why doesn't anybody warn you in bold letters about shutting down telnet, etc.? Linux is too powerful for newbies unless someone helps us fast and early to know what to watch out for. It needs to be in the installation manual, not online, so you aren't root-owned while you're reading the documentation pages.
If no one will do that, if anyone would set up a site for a manual for newbies, I'd surely help write for it.
It's a Catch22 with Gnu/Linux...you can't get it up and running until you know something about it, and you can't really get to know something about it or even comprehend it until it *is* up and running. At least I can't. I specifically bought RedHat as a distro so I could get help from another human. But they only help you install and after that you are on your own. If you then call and ask how to shut off things, they won't help at all, because they "only help with installation"...It's astonishingly user-hostile, compared to the proprietary software world. I'm puzzled as to how they plan to make their business work out, unless they just don't care about individual users and are focused solely on businesses. Maybe it costs too much to help users and that's why they draw the line where they do.
Having griped until I feel better, I think it's important to say this: that the whole point of Gnu/Linux is to eventually know what you are doing. You can't just make it totally click and point and still have the real value of Gnu/Linux. I understand that and am willing to do my time to get the knowledge base I need. But what we really need is help at the beginning to get started and set up, safely. And newbies need to be able to ask questions, specific questions, from someone who knows, because the documentation is never exactly your distro or your situation. Plus there will never be a manual that explains everything to everyone well, with no need for questions. Proprietary software folks know that and set up for it. I mention this because of all the comments about how annoying newbie questions are. Questions are how you learn.
So why not set up a site where newbie questions can be asked and answered? Not just with FAQs, but with a way to email a question. Dell has a great system for that. You do get a FAQ as your first answer, and usually that's enough because they are so thorough (as in "check to make sure your computer is plugged in") and well-written, but if you still need help, you can write back and get it. That way we newbies won't ruin things by asking stupid questions anywhere else. And if we stray off the reservation and ask a question in the wrong venue, you can just point us to that site. It's clear from all the comments that no such site currently exists. Again, speaking for myself, I absolutely volunteer to help anyone who sets up such a site. Just post where to go and I'll be there, seriously committed.
Why? Because I have lived it and know how great the need is for this. And because though I never intended to study computer science, and shouldn't have to go too far down that road before I can use an OS, I understand that open/free is valuable and would gladly contribute what I can.
I also understand that there is a chasm between newbies and programmers and we speak and think in different ways, so what helps *you* with no trouble is hard for me. On the other hand, you probably don't know much about the law, and I work in that field. I can usually read a judge's ruling and know what it means, while you might be puzzled, because you don't know the lingo and lack experience in the field and so would need to ask someone what it all means. Even smart people need to ask for explanations in a field that isn't their own. You could see that clearly when the media was thrashing about with court rulings in the recent US election. Just clueless and misleading coverage as a result. If the person you asked for an explanation answered: "Just read the law", would that help? I say no, because you lack the knowledge to understand what the law means and how it works out in real life. It's no different with computer knowledge. We do need help understanding what it all means and how it works out in real life because we lack the background and experience to get it on our own. Most of us also lack the time and the interest to actually learn how to program. Should that be required to use Gnu/Linux? If not, then where is that helping hand for us Windows refugees?
So, how about it? Anyone?