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Slackware Officially On Sparc 47

Posted by Hemos from the yet-another-chip- dept.
gags bunny wrote to us with the official word from Slackware that Slack now runs on Sparc. If you've got a Sparc sitting around the download site is live - else just grab the mini-ISO image and work from there. We had a story on this recently as well.
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Slackware Officially On Sparc More

Slackware Officially On Sparc

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  • Re:There's some real pig-headed assumptions here.

    Is that supposed to be ironic?

    You can get a 133 Mhz Sparcbook (as fast as Pentium class 450Mhz) for $800 compared to a P450 Notebook for $1200+. 2/3 the price and 3 3/4 the performance. Almost 6x the value.

    I'd understand this being done on the original Sparc, but I'll castigate the first person who puts Slackware on an UltraSparc II

    That's kinda how Linux got the lead. People running Linux found it 2.5x faster than Slowlaris.
    You wanna talk big iron, ok Linux is kinda behind in that arena. Does the caverage guy need big iron? No. You figure it out from there.

  • $10,000? Where'd you get that number?

    I have a sparc5 in my basement, waiting for me to get a CD-burner to start putting Linux on it.

    Right now it's got some older version of solaris, but hey - it's a 64Mb machine, SCSI toys, and to be honest, it's an excellent machine.

    A buddy of mine picked up a pile of Sparc 1's, and they're doing great for him.

  • Everything on the main page after the "grab the mini-ISO" is a link to the slackware FTP site.
  • Actually, the 68000-series CPUs on which the Amiga was based are mostly 32-bit. The original 68000 CPU was not fully 32-bit, but the 68020 and up were. Linux requires a 68020 or higher with an MMU.

    Yeah, the 68000 and 68010 were 16 bit CPUs with 24 bits of address space. The 68020 and up are 32 bits. I don't remember if the 68060 made it to 64 bit, but I don't think so, I think it was just 32 bit with 48 bit addressing or something wonky like that. You could get a 60MHz '060, though, not too shabby, especially when AmigaDOS runs suitably on a 7.14MHz 68000.

    Anyway, the point of this message:

    After seeing the
    uClinux [uclinux.org] homepage, I decided to try to apply the patches these guys made to the standard m68k subtree. This way, I thought, it'd be possible to boot a Linux kernel on old 68000 machines which have no MMU. And I was right. So if you have an old Atari ST, Amiga or Mac, you might want to look at these patches, or even help a hand...
    (From http://www.esat.kuleuven.ac.be/~pcoene/atari.html [kuleuven.ac.be])

    And

    What is uClinux?
    uClinux is a derivative of Linux 2.0 kernel intended for microcontrollers without Memory Management Units (MMUs). (From http://www.uclinux.org/description/ [uclinux.org])

    So far, uClinux runs on the Palm Pilot and on the uCsimm [lineo.com]. Paul Coene's setup will boot on Atari ST (another 68000-based box, much like an amiga without all the cool custom chips) and in the STonX [sourceforge.net] Atari ST emulator.

  • I work at a telco, and we have piles of sparc 5/10/20s and even a few ipxs.

    2 years ago we moved to Ultra 10's for our desktops. In our litte office alone we replaced 40 or 50 desktops.

    Most people took the 20's home for remote workstations. (And firewalls) (-;
  • http://lng.sourceforge.net/
  • I've heard this is not possible because of the closed hardware config of the O2, but any advice would be appreciated. IRIX hurts.
  • I wonder how much this will affect the future of slackware. I mean they have been struggling as of late with all the other distros doing the fancy shrinkwrap thing. in a way, they're almost out dated. I hope splitting to a sparc branch wont over drain their already low resources.
  • You can't be a karma whore if you're an anonymous coward.
  • Could your model be the ELC or SLC perhaps? These are the only models that Sun created which were all in one, IIRC. I'm currently running RH 5.1 on my ELC, which has a 33 MHz processor, 64 MB RAM, and a 1 GB HD. Not bad considering it was produced 10 years ago. The one limiting factor is the B&W screen, but that just adds to the old school factor. :-)
  • It's still a rare thing in Aus. I've found one tho, but ADSL is coming out in a month, so why bother?

    -JB
  • There are a lot of places that give away old Sun stuff. Ebay is usually good if you're willing to pay a couple hundred $ for it. Another good place to go is freeboxen.com [freeboxen.com] (featured on /. a while ago) where people often give away systems, though they might not be in the best shape. It's at least good for parts.

    In my experience, the best way to get old systems is to know someone who who maintains computer systems at a company where they use a lot of Sun (and can therefore help you get the stuff they throw out), which is how I got mine, or you can look around in dumpsters around high-tech companies. It might sound a little disgusting, but a lot of times people will throw out perfectly usable systems just because they're a little old.

  • Most good size cities (I'm in Dallas ) have a 'sidewalk' sale (swap meet) monthly. I see Sparc
    10,20 regularly. I haven't inquired about price,
    but it's always negotiable.
  • Today, if you've got 10k to burn, you can buy a new Sun Blade 1000, which has an UltraSparc-III processor.
  • Where in Dallas? I would LOVE to go
  • You do not need frame buffers, mice, keyboards and monitors to take advantage of a little SPARC box. Just put it into your network and use a console at installation time (a notebook with a serial cable will do it).

    I got myself four SPARCstation-4s for free from a company who no longer needed them. They came without memory or disks but these parts were easily bought.

    Now, two of them reside in 19" racks at some providers and need only 2 units each. Try to beat this with PCs that usually take 4 units.

  • Re:There's some real pig-headed assumptions here. (Score:3)

    by gavinhall ( 33 ) on Saturday December 23, 2000 @08:56AM (#542235)
    Posted by polar_bear:

    Well, I suppose I should prepare to be castigated...

    I have a Ultra 10 just "sitting around" right now...

    I recently got an UltraSparc 10 from a company that owed me money but had a shortage of money, but surplus equipment. I'm not a fan of Solaris, and I have no interest in supporting a non-free UNIX. I've long been a fan of Linux, and Slackware in particular, and I think it's great that they're supporting Sparc and UltraSparc.

    This is a great sign for Linux, it's moving beyond the limitations of Intel hardware. Linux has potential to be an enterprise OS, but Intel hardware is not up to the task of running enterprise solutions in the way that Sun hardware is. IMHO it would be nice if Sun (and Apple...) would realize that they're hardware companies and get behind Open Source solutions like Linux or the *BSDs. (Until I saw the Slack announcement, I was leaning more towards NetBSD...)

    I'd be willing to bet that you'd never used Slackware before. The Slackware team makes a fine distribution that is the most UNIX-like of the Linux distributions (at least of the ones that I've used; Debian, Caldera, Corel, Red Hat, SuSE, Stormix, LinuxPPC, Linux-Mandrake).

    Maybe you like Solaris. Great, go for it. But don't jump down the throats of people who don't want to use closed-source OSes. (Despite Sun's attempts to convince the media to the contrary, Solaris is not an Open Source OS. Visible source, maybe, Open or Free? No way.)

    Is Slack ready to compete with Solaris on Sparc? Probably not yet, but the only way to reach parity is for people to install Slack on Sparc and continue testing and development, which is exactly what I intend to do.

  • Chances are, if you have a Sparc machine, it drained at least $10,000 from your wallet and it's running Solaris 7/8.

    So now who's making assumptions? We buy rack-mount SPARC hardware regularly, for general purpose servers. They are not Sun branded, they are built on OEM hardware, and can be purchased new for about $2300 and up.

    It's easy to justify buying the SPARC hardware over x86:

    • No surprises on chipsets, disk controllers, etc. Everytime we buy an x86 server it seems we need to download some new driver to make it work. Not so with SPARC.
    • Excellent overall performance. The 440MHz US-II isn't quite as fast as the newest Athlon and PIII systems, but it's certainly close enough, and the 2MB L2 cache is blazingly fast.
    • Remote management. No need for klunky KVM switches. One rack-mount device can manage 8 SPARCs by a serial console, allowing complete remote control from a single IP address.

    Most of our SPARCs are running Solaris today. I'm considering installing Linux on some of those to simplify management: it's easer to manage a network of Linux machines than a mix of Linux and Solaris. The main criteria is whether we need a JVM... those running Java are stuck with Solaris for now.

  • Why do you need Linux support for your O2? Every O2 is licensed for at least IRIX 6.3, most are licensed for IRIX 6.5. Go to http://freeware.sgi.com and grab whatever utilities and compilers you need. Make sure you've got 128+ MB RAM.
  • Sun has an EXCELLENT edu program .. you can get 40 - 50% off on alot of things. (an a1000 for 11 grand!, we paid 33 for ours ...) ... but they have some machines around 1200$ for a basic setup ... I wouldn't take solaris off it though ...

    Unfourtnatley the offer from sun expired on the 22nd, but they will most ceartinly continue it in a few weeks. http://store.sun.com/docs/specials/specials_index. jhtmlHeres a list of their promos:

    If your not a student, goto a JC, pay 50$ for a class, get a student ID, and save 50% on a machine ...

  • I can start a project on a used SGI Indy or Indigo2 running IRIX 6.5. If I need more power on a single system I can order an Origin 3000 with 512 CPUs, 1TB RAM, and ungodly bandwidth. Soon they will be available up to 1024 CPU, 2TB config. If your project/idea/business takes off and brings in money and demand, you're going to need to supply. How far can your Linux box with mysql+php go? Maybe an 8-CPU Xeon or Alpha?
  • Could your model be the ELC or SLC perhaps? These are the only models that Sun created which were all in one, IIRC. I'm currently running RH 5.1 on my ELC, which has a 33 MHz processor, 64 MB RAM, and a 1 GB HD.

    IIRC, the hard disks were external only. I had an SLC and don't recall it having room for a hard disk. I used it with Xkernel as an X Terminal, but now that there's slack for sparc, perhaps it would be better done that way.

  • Before you rush out and buy an unusable old crappy Sparc box for too much $$, check the following link:

    Frequently Asked Questions About Buying An Old Sun System (FAQABOSS) [sunhelp.org]

    Don't expect much from the graphics subsystems - most of the frame buffers that are supported are only 8 bit and unaccelerated. My LX would run Gnome and KDE, but it was excruciating. I am now running most of my Sparc gear (IPX, 2 Classics, an LX and a 2xSM51 Sparc 10) on OpenBSD. The IPX makes a great firewall with the addition of another NIC, and the 'lunchbox' Sparcs are nice and tidy. Watch the heat issues, especially with newer high RPM SCSI drives...

    By the way, does anyone know if the PCMCIA - SBUS bridge (nell) is due for attention? What about pthreads and mysql on the old Sparcs?

  • That's okay...it probably wouldn't hurt for people looking for More On Flexible Transistors to visit the slackware site... of course some people might be concerned when they click on the article about egghead's credit card db getting stolen and end up in an ftp site...

    ...but such is life :)
  • Linux can run on the old Amigas (16bit CPU).

    Not only that;

    • ELKS [soton.ac.uk]

      The goal of the ELKS project is to create a Linux option for

      • 8086 and 80286 class PC's
      • Palmtop Computers
      • Single board microcomputers
      • Embedded controller systems
      • Other old computers
      ELKS currently runs on PC's. The ELKS kernel image needs about 200K and a full running system should require 400K-512K. Linux is used as the development platform for ELKS at the moment.
  • X 4.0.2's DRI supports the Creator3D. I dunno how optimized the driver is though.

  • Although Linux does support console on the serial port, so if that "rack mount device" you speak of is a basic term-server/serial port switcher, you can manage your x86 Linux boxen the same damn way.

    True, almost. Just hope you don't have to perform any BIOS changes from a serial console. You can't compare the poor excuse of firmware that ships with most PCs to OpenBoot.

    The Blackdown Project has Sparc ports. 1.2.2 is available, though I don't believe that 1.3 is yet.

    Good point. The Blackdown folks do fine work. But it's still no match for the Solaris 1.2.2 Production VM. Our server apps have to be robust, fast, robust, high performance, robust...

    (I'm hoping the gcj project [redhat.com] will become the great equalizer on Java performance, but it's not quite there yet.)

  • Linux can run on the old Amigas (16bit CPU).

    Actually, the 68000-series CPUs on which the Amiga was based are mostly 32-bit. The original 68000 CPU was not fully 32-bit, but the 68020 and up were. Linux requires a 68020 or higher with an MMU.

    Otherwise you need something like ucLinux.


    OpenVerse Visual Chat: http://openverse.org [openverse.org]
  • I remember slackware getting me into knowing more about intel pc's than I had ever imagined. Now I can start busting 31337 knowledge on my iSparc (that's what I call it, it's really some all-in-one workstation w/ no HD collecting dust in my closet). If only I can get it to run off the network, THE computer, whatever sun calls it.

  • Re:There's some real pig-headed assumptions here. (Score:3)

    by Jedi Alec ( 258881 ) on Saturday December 23, 2000 @05:17AM (#542248)
    So who wants to erase a professionally designed operating system that costs hundreds of dollars to replace it with Slackware?

    There are people that payed for Windows 2000 you know...
  • Now the question is, where can one get cheap, usable Sun hardware to play with. Anyone?
  • So what does this mean for OSS and GNU? Another architecture conquered, but to what end?

  • Re:Cheap Sun Hardware (Score:3)

    by garcia ( 6573 ) on Saturday December 23, 2000 @05:20AM (#542251)
    EBay is all right to start w/, but you may be hit w/extra costs of HD's, RAM, frame buffer, mice, and KB if you don't buy a full system. Remember that SPARC's use a different video card and mice and KB.

    If you can find a full system that's great (there are plenty available) but you are going to pay a lot more than they are really worth. I honestly believe unless you got an UltraSPARC it really isn't worth it (but this is only my opinion). I bought one of the Alpha UDB's a while back and got partially screwed on parity RAM and a SCSI HD (w/external enclosure and stuff).

    Just a warning :) Good luck.
  • Like NetBSD/sparc e.g.
  • you're right, but I believe that Linux for SPARC is *mostly* run by people w/older SPARC's, not brandnew hardware...

    I have used Solaris and I am not fond of it, but I am sure that if you bought a system w/it, you would want to use it, what do I know?

    I am more comfortable w/Linux myself and would probably prefer to use that but then again, I didn't pay $10k for an USII ;-)
  • If you've got a Sparc sitting around...

    Now who has a Sparc machine just "sitting around"? Chances are, if you have a Sparc machine, it drained at least $10,000 from your wallet and it's running Solaris 7/8. So who wants to erase a professionally designed operating system that costs hundreds of dollars to replace it with Slackware?

    I'd understand this being done on the original Sparc, but I'll castigate the first person who puts Slackware on an UltraSparc II. They're just throwing their money out the window.

  • Why not dig out your old C64 and put linux on that! If dreamcast can do it so can we :-) P.S Debian's been able to run on SPARC for quite some time now.
  • In my experience, SparcLinux has been a nice way to give older (sun4c/sun4/sun4m) boxes a new lease on life (esp. the SS5/10/20 that still have a little power). I've run it on both an SS2 and an SSClassic, and other than distro-specific bugs (RH was the only Sparc distro at the time... ugh), they worked well.

    Also, Solaris 8 drops support for the sun4 and sun4c boxes, IIRC, and it has way too much overhead for a lot of the pre-sun4u boxes.

    PS: I'd put Slack on the Ultra 10/440 in my office... but only as a dual-boot setup with SunOS 5.7. Just out of morbid curiousity. I doubt I'd ever get XFree to fully use the Creator3D. :)
  • When I got my first Sun, a SPARCstation IPX, I had an interesting OS adventure with it. In the begining, all I had was serial console. So, I fooled around. I think I tried RedHat, but Linux distros are total crap when I comes to network installation. So, I went with NetBSD. It worked pretty nicely. Once I got a second monitor for it (got a 17" Sony for my PC, and gave it my 15" Sony), I started trying more things. I think I first tried Solaris 2.4. Ran just fine, but it was so old that finding stuff for it wasn't easy. Then I tried Solaris 7. Sol 7 has some big problems with it that caused it to run at 1/4 the speed on my IPX as it did on a friend's SS2 (equivalent machine). So, I dug up a copy of Solaris 2.6, and the machine's been running that just fine for quite a while.

    Recently my best Sun has been a SPARCstation 5 running Solaris 8, so I found a new use for my IPX. I threw an s-bus NIC into it (hard to find, since Suns all come with on-board NICs, but I had it laying around), and installed OpenBSD. Makes a great firewall. Fits under the network switch just nicely. (and works a lot better than the crappy crash-happy PC I was trying to do it with before. it was hardware, as I was using OpenBSD in both cases)
  • I actually paid for slackware. Not much tho.
    I didn't like the idea of downloading 1200MB worth via a 56KBaud modem. Bad stuff indeed, especially when I pay 0.28 cents/meg over 300MB every month.
  • I've got a bunch of Sparcs sitting around, and I didn't pay an arm/leg for them.

    SPARCstation 5 (Solaris 8, secondary desktop)
    SPARCstation IPX (OpenBSD 2.8, firewall)
    SPARC Xterminal 1 (stole RAM for SS5, Xt1 to appear on eBay)
    SPARCserver 670MP (makes too much noise. parting out on eBay)

    Of course I collect my machines for variety. If they were all running one OS, I wouldn't see the point. If I wanted to use Linux, I would just use a PC. If I have a Sparc, normally that means I want to play with Solaris. Likewise, my SGI runs IRIX, and my RS/6000 runs AIX.

    I really do collect "UNIX Diversity". Look at my "systems" page:
    http://www.logicprobe.org/systems/

  • All good points about the SPARC hardware.

    Or not.

    "No surprises on chipsets, disk controllers, etc."

    Granted, resolving bizarre HW interactions is one of the "joys" of running x86 systems. All in all, though, if you use reasonably consistantly configured systems you can get more bang for your buck out of an x86. You even admit this in your second point.

    "No need for klunky KVM switches."

    I've got to give you at partial credit here. Although Linux does support console on the serial port, so if that "rack mount device" you speak of is a basic term-server/serial port switcher, you can manage your x86 Linux boxen the same damn way.

    In your final paragraph you also state:

    The main criteria is whether we need a JVM ... those running Java are stuck with Solaris for now"

    Again my response must be: Or not. The Blackdown Project [blackdown.org] has Sparc ports. 1.2.2 is available, though I don't believe that 1.3 is yet. Frankly, with the exception of HP-UX, Slowaris ... er, I mean Solaris ... is one of the most painfull platforms to "write once, run anywhere" on. IMHO, of course.

    I will grant you this, though: x86 equipment, on the whole, is drek compared to most Sparc based stuff. It just isn't designed as robustly. Kind of like comparing a Nissan to a Toyota. I love my Nissan, and certainly get better bang for the buck with it. No regrets at all. However, one drive in the eqiv Toy would reveal an obvious difference in robustness, design and fit & finish.


    --
    If your map and the terrain differ,
    trust the terrain.
  • I guess my real question was, what's so good about the SPARC. Or rather, the SPARC has a high reputation and a high price tag to boot - if it's good why is it so rare to actually find people using one? Or really, I hate IBM, apple is great but slowly diminshing, where can a bum (as in, no money) get something made with quality in mind without huge sums of money being involved. Sparc isn't the answer I know, but could it lead to one?

    -JB

  • Re:Beans Means Heinz (Score:3)

    by Octorian ( 14086 ) on Saturday December 23, 2000 @06:58AM (#542262) Homepage
    Finding old Sparc machines is actually very easy, and a lot of hobbyists use them. Just look at sites like "www.sunhelp.org". Second in line from that list would probably be SGI. But people have to work around the company to get them, as IRIX costs an arm/leg.

    However, as a collector, I also have an IBM RS/6000. I've looked far and wide, and I'm convinced that there are only 15 hobbist RS6k users in the world. (which includes myself and the guy I got my POWERstation 350 from) On the other hand, old RS6ks kick the crap out of old SPARCs for performance. The "POWER" processor (well, chipset, actually) kicks ass.
  • [grrr damn dog nudged my arm and made me hit enter after backspace while editing that. sorry for the messed up blockquote. Correct version follows. Mod the above down if you're bored]

    All good points about the SPARC hardware.

    Or not.

    "No surprises on chipsets, disk controllers, etc."

    Granted, resolving bizarre HW interactions is one of the "joys" of running x86 systems. All in all, though, if you use reasonably consistantly configured systems you can get more bang for your buck out of an x86. You even admit this in your second point.

    "No need for klunky KVM switches."

    I've got to give you at partial credit here. Although Linux does support console on the serial port, so if that "rack mount device" you speak of is a basic term-server/serial port switcher, you can manage your x86 Linux boxen the same damn way.

    In your final paragraph you also state:

    "The main criteria is whether we need a JVM ... those running Java are stuck with Solaris for now"

    Again my response must be: Or not. The Blackdown Project [blackdown.org] has Sparc ports. 1.2.2 is available, though I don't believe that 1.3 is yet. Frankly, with the exception of HP-UX, Slowaris ... er, I mean Solaris ... is one of the most painfull platforms to "write once, run anywhere" on. IMHO, of course.

    I will grant you this, though: x86 equipment, on the whole, is drek compared to most Sparc based stuff. It just isn't designed as robustly. Kind of like comparing a Nissan to a Toyota. I love my Nissan, and certainly get better bang for the buck with it. No regrets at all. However, one drive in the eqiv Toy would reveal an obvious difference in robustness, design and fit & finish.


    --
    If your map and the terrain differ,
    trust the terrain.

  • linux outscales solaris in SMP and Enterprise server configurations, it's more stable and more secure out of the box

    You've been smoking your old CDs again, haven't you?
  • I guess my real question was, what's so good about the SPARC.

    Admitted -- new boxes are fairly expensive for private use. Until now Sun has a price policy that gives significant savings only for educational institutions and companies that spend huge sums for Sun hardware.

    But it is no problem to get used Sun hardware for low prices. Maybe they are not the machines of your choice on your desktop but they are great network servers and the pizza box cases consume less space in 19" racks than standard PC hardware. Except for the newer Ultras, Sun hardware is well manufactured and runs (in most cases) without trouble for years.

    why is it so rare to actually find people using one?

    Well, I guess you'll find some of them in this thread :-)

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