LinuxWorld 94
mduell writes: "Saw these three on the Technology front page at MSNBC.com. First off, This story on how GNOME Foundation takes aim at Microsoft. Secondly, this story about what Michael Dell thinks of Linux. Lastly, this story about Linux on mobile devices." Some other links that have been submitted: a reader submits pictures from the Expo, a Linux PDA is announced, and Michael Dell tries to figure out why he's selling overpriced Linux systems.
Agenda VR3 (Score:2)
Among the more interesting tidbits, you can hook up to the VR3's RS232 serial port and telnet or ftp right into the PDA.
The article also has full technical specs and a picture of the PDA in its cradle.
Re:what a tease...No, No, No. (Score:1)
Re:The Agenda VR3 (Score:1)
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Re:Why DELL linux systems cost more (Score:1)
Buy the NT box and plop Linux on top of it
Vote [dragonswest.com] Naked 2000
Dell hasn't been listening... (Score:1)
Dell savings: Where's the beef? (Score:1)
It would be interesting to know just where the savings is coming from; anyone got figures from Dell? Is it from possibly reduced R&D per unit value gained, despite that they're spending "the most" [sic] on Linux right now? Are they saving money from not having to buy MS licenses and products for these boxen? Shorter dev/production cycles? Support savings?
On a slightly related note, I wonder what the margins are for Dell Linux boxen; maybe they charge more because (among other reasons) they can charge more. After all, why would they argue with higher margins? :P
It's ONLY $150! (Score:1)
cy
(ps. my original title has 20 exclaimation points in it,
Re:Getting what is paid for? Support? (Score:1)
My problem with Agenda (Score:1)
uhm, no (Score:2)
Re:Agenda Linux PDA (Score:1)
I cut and pasted that from the announcement. 8MB RAM, 2MB Flash ROM (Flash ROM is a type of ROM which can be altered -- but alteration is much slower than RAM and there's a limit of about 100,000 alterations).
The VR3+ FAQ also mentioned the same 2MB Flash/4MB Flash number.
Re:Hmmm (Score:1)
Re:what a tease...No, No, No. (Score:1)
(At least 20% of servers still ship with Novell. It used to be much higher, around 70%.)
Re:What about PocketLinux? (Score:3)
PocketLinux is a PDA operating system that we've been developing, based around Kaffe and an XML-based application framework.
We're announcing it at LWCE, even though I already demoed a bit of it at OLS. Even at this early stage, it's probably the best PDA OS for Linux handhelds I've seen yet.
At the show, we've been running it on the VTech Helio, and the Compaq iPaq.
We're actually selling the Helio's for $149 at the show, but it's really for developers only at this stage.
We've got a really wicked demo built for the iPaq, with themes, handwriting recognition, a notepad, article viewer, MP3 player, and even video! We've got a few Java games running too.
Unfortunately, the demo really only came together at the last minute, so the web pages haven't been updated, and we haven't posted the sources and images yet.
I'm going to try to get on that...
Re:t-shirts (Score:1)
Other notable schwag included BSD devil horns, a couple beer glasses from some headhunter people, a couple martini glasses from the AMD party, a flashlight from HP, a stuffed penguin from IBM, some red light/flashy pins from various companies, a couple superballs (one flashy and one with a penguin imprisoned inside), a bunch of cds (including "sounds of slashdot"... so far, I've been afraid to listen) and a cd wallet.
JMC
Re:www.gnomefoundation.org (Score:1)
Get 'em, boys!
.sig
Uhh... (Score:1)
The most likely reason was because they were at a LINUX expo. This thing is not being marketed as a linux users PDA, from the web page it looks as if it only syncs with Outlook. On the other hand, unlike the iPaq, it has some professionallay done PIM apps specifically for that size PDA. Besides, it uses X and the entire OS and all apps are open source. I bet the iPaq developers could just lift the work done on the agenda and make the more powerful iPaq actually useful as a PDA and keep linux on it + xmms+ram+color.
The source code... (Score:1)
Off the developers site
You can check out the latest source code through anonymous (pserver) CVS: cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.agendacomputing.com:/cvsr oot/linuxvr login
cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.agendacomputing.com:/cvsr oot/linuxvr co linux
Just press Enter for the password (leave it blank).
This creates a "linux" directory right under wherever you were when you did the checkout command.
This could probably be done in no time. The only thing I can think of is the resolution difference, but moving some widgets or something, perhaps adding a dock of some sort and a few things to take advantage of the more powerful iPaq. I'm thinking about buying one myself and getting to work on this...
Re:My problem with Agenda (Score:1)
I wonder if they're using a compressed filesystem, or simply compressing many of the files, to fit more on the Flash ROM.
Re:It's not about the hardware! (Score:1)
Re:t-shirts (Score:1)
Sounds like windows to me... (Score:1)
the one in this pic (Score:1)
Agenda Linux PDA (Score:3)
USER INTERFACE
CONNECTIVITY
BUILT-IN SOFTWARE Linux VR operating system Contacts, To-Do, Schedule, Notes, Calculator, Quicksync for Linux and Windows PC, Mail, Network, Terminal, Games, Bootloader, Utilities Backlit display for clear viewing in low light conditions
...
PRICING AND AVAILABILITY The Agenda VR3 will be available in October 2000. Pricing for the Agenda VR3 is expected to begin as low as $149 MSRP. Product availability, pricing and product specifications are subject to change without notice.
Re:Agenda PDA (Score:1)
Re:Why DELL linux systems cost more (Score:1)
Dell is pricing these higher because Linux has more than just legitimacy, it's desirable.
In short, Linux is hot, he's a business man and he knows how to make money.
Vote [dragonswest.com] Naked 2000
"It's not Microsoft" (Score:3)
People, Linux has got to stand on it's own. I think it's great to talk about taking over market share, and breaking the back of the oppressive monopoly that we've all been struggling under, but if we can't do anything more than mimmic the new features that Microsoft is coming out with, ours will be a short dynasty. We have to fight the temptation to think of ourselves as a "better Windows". People have to buy into Linux because it does what they need to do, quickly and reliably, with a user interface that makes sense to normal human beings.
Break out of the mold and do something truly creative.
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Re:emmett (Score:1)
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then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
Re:Agenda PDA (Score:2)
Agenda isn't a "new OS". It is Linux. The real McCoy. And it is X. And bash. And whatever else you port.
Leverage open-source operating system and tools.
Source-available system utilities and productivity suite software.
Program in C or C++.
Use familiar tools and libraries like gcc and glibc.
Don't settle for less - the VR3 runs Linux 2.4 and XFree86.
Build user interfaces easily using the built-in FLTK library.
Access databases efficiently using built-in libdb support.
Re:What about PocketLinux? (Score:2)
Re: Playing??? (Score:1)
PocketLinux? (Score:1)
Re:www.gnomefoundation.org (Score:1)
FYI, for those too lazy to check it out themselves, the URL points to KDE!
LinuxWorld Webcasts (Score:3)
Re:What the hell is this? (Score:1)
Re:what a tease... (Score:2)
Or just buy a machine from someone else. I don't understand the big hoop-la over Dell machines, are they really that special? Can't one of the myriad of other makers produce similar quality systems?
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Re:uhm, no (Score:1)
Not just that, but a hardware manufacturer has to make a case to Microsoft to show that two separate models are indeed separate models (for instance, they need to have different specs (aside from the OS)) and be promoted differently.
This is all just me regurgitating something I read (probably either at the Register or a John C Dvorak (I can sense the flames already!) column from a year or two back...
Yes, the DOJ did stop Microsoft from being able to charge OEMs for licenses they didn't sell, but they were able to devise an even more restrictive term in the end...
Re:The Agenda VR3 (Score:1)
Re:What the hell is this? (Score:1)
Since the iBook looks like a toilet seat, I suppose the pic was taken in the right place...
now you know
Under 21 Not Allowed. (Score:1)
Party On!
Re:What the hell is this? (Score:1)
Just a guess.
Re:"It's not Microsoft" (Score:2)
What are we adding? In short, commoditization. Even if Linux were just another Windows (which it isn't), it's free. It commoditizes the operating system, just as TCP/IP commoditized wire protocol and Ethernet commoditized the wire itself. Unseating the monopoly and putting control of the operating system back into the hands of the industry and community is a worthy goal, in and of itself.
Besides, who knows how many slick new innovations could have happened over the last decade if Microsoft hadn't been there to destroy them? We're creating a level playing field, one on which true innovation can happen, whether or not it agrees with the One Microsoft Way.
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Re:What about PocketLinux? (Score:1)
http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux .htm [transvirtual.com]
http://www.transvirtual.com/poc ketlinux-screens.htm [transvirtual.com]
They're using BusyBox. (Score:1)
ar, basename, cat, chgrp, chmod, chown, chroot, chvt, clear, cp, cut, date, dc, dd, deallocvt, df, dirname, dmesg, du, dumpkmap, dutmp, echo, false, fbset, fdflush, find, free, freeramdisk, fsck.minix, grep, gunzip, gzip, halt, head, hostid, hostname, id, init, insmod, kill, killall, length, ln, loadacm, loadfont, loadkmap, logger, logname, ls, lsmod, makedevs, mkdir, mkfifo, mkfs.minix, mknod, mkswap, mktemp, more, mount, mt, mv, nc, nslookup, ping, poweroff, printf, ps, pwd, reboot, renice, rm, rmdir, rmmod, sed, setkeycodes, sh, sleep, sort, swapoff, swapon, sync, syslogd, tail, tar, tee, telnet, test, touch, tr, true, tty, umount, uname, uniq, update, uptime, usleep, uudecode, uuencode, wc, which, whoami, yes, zcat, [
So 8 Megs begins to look even roomier.
Those pictures (Score:2)
Scary.
Re:What about PocketLinux? (Score:2)
That is, can I attach a wireless networking card and then display Netscrape that's running on a remote server. Remember, many of us still have the goal or reading
Buying a complete notebook for this purpose is just too expensive and too bulky. An oversized IPaq with wireless networking would be the perfect fit for my problem space.
Re:They're using BusyBox. (Score:1)
Re:emmett (Score:1)
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Michael Sims-michael at slashdot.org
Re:PocketLinux and jesse berst is an idiot (Score:1)
Re:It's ONLY $150! (Score:1)
Re:Agenda Linux PDA (Score:1)
Hmmm (Score:1)
I looked on his site to find out whether I could order a laptop without Windows and the answer is no. I assume he only offers Linux installs for businesses. That's fine and dandy but it doesn't address my needs as an individual consumer, which is the base that built his company.
I want to see Dell be more innovative in the Linux arena, rather than looking to see what Gateway and others are doing. I really like their products and feel that they offer decent deals for those of us who want cheap, well made pc's/laptops with standard components.
what a tease... (Score:3)
"But the chairman studiously avoided bad-mouthing Redmond, Wash., even when asked by an attendee why Dell systems preconfigured with Linux continued to be more expensive than similarly configured Windows machines."
and thought I was about to get the official answer at last!
No luck. I've been wondering for ages why the dell linux boxes are so much more expensive than the windows boxes. I thought they might be dealing with amortization of costs from the learning curve, but Dell also mentions in that article that they, themselves, are relying on linux boxes for several segments of their production process. My theory goes right out the window on that statement.
Does anyone have a better idea? Or does anyone know what Dell actually responded to the question of why the linux boxes cost more?
This could all be a fad (Score:2)
Founder's Camp [founderscamp.com]
Re:Agenda PDA (Score:1)
Rsync for Linux and Windows PC
Re:The Agenda VR3 (Score:1)
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Source for Linux PDA Available (Score:1)
Re:Why DELL linux systems cost more (Score:1)
That said, I'm sure that Dell's market research knows just what to do to eeek the most possible cash out of the IT purchaser (certainly more than this geek knows about it) and is probably doing exactly what will maximize profits.
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Must-attend event for suits now (Score:2)
Re:Linux VR (Score:1)
Re:pictures (Score:1)
And you're proud of that??
And there's more... (Score:1)
Re:Agenda PDA (Score:1)
Definitions (Score:2)
OLD: dating from the remote past; ANCIENT ("old traditions"); persisting from an earlier time ("an old ailment"), ("they brought up the same old argument"); of long standing ("an old friend")
LINUX a free implementation of the UNIX computer operating system developed under a distributed, "open source" model
Why don't you? Isn't the whole point of open source that it empowers you to develop whatever you want? If you've got a great idea, share it with the rest of us.
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PocketLinux and jesse berst is an idiot (Score:2)
Now, to mobile linux. Most of the embedded stuff here at (a href="http://www.linuxworldexpo.com">LinuxWorld is alright. There is one stellar exception that stands above the crowd--PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com]. These guys rock! First of all, unlike some of the other guys, they're not putting a desktop linux distro in my hand. Do I want to run X on a screen that's 2" x 3"? Hell no. They've built an incredibly fast system that will display full motion video (that's right) on the Compaq iPaq [compaq.com]. It's completely open source, and the framework is standards based and it appears to be easy to write your own applications on. It scales as well. Everything from a handheld to a cellular phone to a set-top box is possible. This is where the future of mobile linux is going to be. These guys finally did it right. Anyone else considering an embedded solution would do themselves a favor to look over there. And one final note, this product is SHIPPING TODAY! Yesterday even. This is not vapor ware. Spend the $150 and start developing apps today!
What a load of crap (Score:2)
Linux: It's UNIX, only better.
Re:This could all be a fad (Score:1)
Re:"It's not Microsoft" (Score:1)
Obviously, the first is creating new and different ways to use computers. True innovation is difficult, and I have to admit I don't have any great, profound answers to how the Linux and Open Source community can solve this.
The second, more subtle issue is image. I have seen a consistent undercurrent from MS, stating that they are the true source of innovation, and that Linux is nothing more than a copycat. It's always more difficult to be a leader, they claim, and the speed at which Open Source developers are able to implement features is due to the fact that they are simply re-implementing what the Leaders (read, Microsoft) have already done.
The trick is, we have to show people that this is not the case.
In other words, it's the perception we have to fight, as much as it is the obvious tendency to set our eyes no higher than what we already know. I do think that programs such as GNOME are comming up with new and interesting ways to do things, but the more we focus on Microsoft as the Great Enemy, the more we are letting ourselves be forced to play by their rules.
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Re:Definitions (Score:1)
I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that immitation is an easy trap to fall into.
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Linux wants to be Windows (Score:2)
"The Gnome desktop will integrate embedded Mozilla into the (Eazel) Nautilus file manager"
Can somebody tell me why the Linux community openly criticizes Microsoft's silly ideas and then tries so hard to emulate them? It seems like Linux's inferiority complex is getting in the way of any real innovation on their part.
Re:It's not about the hardware! (Score:1)
Re:Definitions (Score:2)
Hummm... Can you define Linux without the term UNIX? (i.e., in what way is Linux more than simply a rehash of a 30 year old idea?)
I'm not flaming you. I'm just pointing out that immitation is an easy trap to fall into.
I understand where you are going with this, but at the same time, I don't know that it is necesary to define Linux without using UNIX. When designing the OS, I see Linus as having two choices. He could develop a UI from scratch, which would have taken a very long time and detracted from what he proably saw as the real work of kernel implmentation. Or he could use the existing UNIX UI, most which was already written and just needed porting, and was small and simple as befits an OS "in development". It also had the advantage of being something that most of his fellow developers were familiar with. It is largely possible, in current distros of Linux, to ignore that UI. The members of the Gnome foundation would like to (I think) make it completely possible to ignore that UI. Linux is UNIX-like only insomuch as that was the interface Linus chose to bolt on. Look at Mac OS X. It is UNIX, yet I would not call it UNIX-like. The key here is to make Linux better. If that means borrowing from the good ideas of Microsoft, fine. If it means creating entirely new ideas, fine too. I am sure that if the members of the Gnome foundation intend to succeed, they will have to do both.
Why DELL linux systems cost more (Score:4)
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Re:what a tease... (Score:2)
I've been wondering for ages why the dell linux boxes are so much more expensive than the windows boxes.
Most of the customers for Dell Linux servers are using them as the server and storage products . . . "We are spending more R&D dollars on Linux than any other OS, given its size," Dell said.
That's their public statements; they are special, high end stuff. Crap, they just can't yet afford to piss off M$. And nothing pisses off the Redmond Illuminati more than cutting into their profits. As Linux starts to dominate the desktop, this will change. M$ will need Dell, Compaq, et al, as much as they need M$.
As for installation hassle factor for Linux vs. Wondows, most people get their computers with the OS and major software pre-installed, with "restore" disks that neatly restore everything to day one in case of a screw-up, anyway. Dell knows this as much as any of us.
Re:Hmmm (Score:2)
Getting what is paid for? Support? (Score:1)
Heh. I guess the hardware that runs Linux should be beer too, eh?
Dell can sell overpriced Linux systems because a good portion of Dell buyers (coorporate style business and higher education) can afford it. Oh well. Dell is evil. Dell is bad. Dell is Microsoft. Dell is awful because they've shipped me parts next day when a piece of hardware died.
Personally, I like Dell systems for servers. The hardware is decent, and the service contracts are good. So what if the price is higher - I feel that I'm getting what I paid for. Dealing with Dell has been a much better experience than dealing with, oh, HP or Compaq (who also overprice their systems.
Besides, Micheal Dell is freakin' rich; He didn't get that way by giving away computers.
New Car (Score:1)
The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk
Re:New Car (Score:1)
So what exactly do you have to do to win that Slashdot Cruiser? ;-)"
You just had to swipe you card at the booth I think
Re:Agenda Linux PDA (Score:2)
And you have something wrong there. It's 8 MB *ROM*, 2 Meg flash *RAM*
And a 'speedy' 66 MHz processor..
The newer palsm outperform this, with an equivilent price range. Thanks, but I'll go buy an iPaq first. (Well, as soon as they can save the CE image just in case it frags, so I don;t end up with a 500$ doorstop)
What the hell is this? (Score:1)
Can someone tell me what the heck this is? It looks like an Apple rice cooker!
Re:Why DELL linux systems cost more (Score:2)
I think that's a load of crap. If that were true then he would have used that argument each time the issue was brought up, but he knows that argument doesn't hold any water. Just look at the way he danced around the questions and how he ended up by spouting some bs about how you need to choose an OS with applications for the most value. What does that sound like to you?
He may be flirting with Linux, but he's definitely still in bed with MS.
the gnome foundation (Score:1)
Re:Sounds like windows to me... (Score:1)
Re:Linux wants to be Windows (Score:2)
Perhaps because what you describe as "the Linux community" is actually multiple communities, some of which despise the MS way, while others admire it and others still don't give a flying flip.
> It seems like Linux's inferiority complex is getting in the way of any real innovation on their part.
Man, you really kicked the hell out of that straw man, didn't you.
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R&D Dollars? (Score:1)
This brings up the question, how does one spend R&D dollars on Windows? Isn't that Microsoft's job?
Re:Why DELL linux systems cost more (Score:2)
What the questioneer at the con didn't realize, even though Michael attempted to explain it, is that it really does cost them more to ship a Linux Dell computer than a Windows Dell computer.
The reason why is simple. Ry4an explained it, but I'll rehash for the hard of hearing. Economy of scale. When you build 10,000 identical windows machines and 100 linux machines per day, the windows machines will each be cheaper to produce. Further, even the custom order machines get the same economy of scale, since creating 1000 identical custom orders for a windows machine still has a lower per-unit production cost than creating 10 identical custom orders for a linux machine.
The questioneer called the extra $75 a "tax". If he would look this word up in a dictionary, he'll see that a tax is an involuntary obligation to a government or liege. If you don't want to spend $2000 + $75 for Linux Dell system, you have all the freedom in the world to buy a $2000 Windows Dell system and install Linux yourself, or even buy a $3000 VALinux system if you don't want to install the OS yourself.
p.s. I do want to comment on another question asked of Michael Dell, and that is "aren't you just using Linux to sell more hardware?" The answer is of course, YES! Dell is a hardware company! Sheesh...
Re:what a tease... (Score:1)
Wait A minute either way The boys at Redmond get a share in the profits for the machine. So either way your sellihg your soul. Now if you decide to buy the NT machine Microsoft has to print out one more manual with the certificatre of authenciticy, press another CD and ship it over to Dell. Now this cost is minute of course, and if you are buyiong for a vendor such as Dell, ("you" || "your boss") want ("warrenty" && "tech support" && "The Dell GNOME theme") so you'd probally better spend the money on Dell.
Now I don't kow what Dell tech support is like so if its worth it I don't know.
Re:Linux wants to be Windows (Score:2)
> while others admire it and others still don't give a flying flip.
Quite true. In that case, I guess the communities I'm talking about here are the Mozilla and Nautilus developers. And while I do like some MS ideas, frankly the IE/shell integration is gimmicky and useless and I think most experienced computer users and the DoJ agree with me.
I find it ironic that Mozilla is working on duplicating a feature that was only used originally by MS to shove them out of the market.
Re:Linux wants to be Windows (Score:1)
While I am nominally a GNOME fan, and actually use it regularly, I think they also are going to far in some regards.
The dreaded forking of Linux probably won't come by way of a kernel fork, but rather by way of a "heavy" GUI that forks the user community into two groups: {I'm-locked-in, I-don't-use-it}.
> I find it ironic that Mozilla is working on duplicating a feature that was only used originally by MS to shove them out of the market.
Equal but opposite reaction, kind of thing?
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The Agenda VR3 (Score:1)
Q:Can I write directly onto the LCD screen to input information? Do I have to learn a new handwriting format?
A: Yes you can write onto the LCD screen and your natural handwriting will be recognized. With the Agenda VR3 consumers don¦t have to learn graffiti or any other new form of manuscript.
Re:New Car (Score:1)
Links, please.
Re:what a tease... (Score:3)
But hey if you really want to save that extra cash buy the one with M$ installed, delete the OS and start from scratch w/ Linux. Then again you'd be helping Billy G to get richer quick instead of Mr Dell. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, save $$$ or save your soul.............:>
agenda models (Score:2)
http://www.agendacomputing.com/sup port/faq06.jsp [agendacomputing.com]
Agenda PDA (Score:1)
The Agenda PDA looks pretty interesting. I was going to dump my old Cassiopeia E-10 in favor of a Handspring, but I may have to wait for this to come out now.
The manufacturer's site is not very specific about what exactly Linux VR, the OS the thing runs, is, apart from saying it's "Linux-based." What does that mean? Will simple console applications work on this thing? Does anyone know? Has anyone seen one at the Expo?
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