1364101
story
blount writes
"An interview with LSDVD developers Paul Volcko and Gad Berger is on moviebone. Paul and Gad discuss DVD crypto, patent and trade secret issues, and their plans for an application supporting hardware and software DVD playback."
DVD Region chips (Score:2)
So even if hardware region protection is implemented it ain't hard to get around it.
Re:Line is crossed when *gov't* says "illegal 2 mo (Score:1)
You seem to be very anti-copyright (in the traditional sense), since copyrights put limits on what people can do in almost the exact same way. You may not like them, but no one's ever struck them down as unconstitutional. In fact, they're specifically mentioned in the constitution.
A task for distributed.net? (Score:1)
Disclaimer: I really have no clue about DVD, so I'm well aware of that this idea may be a very silly one indeed.
Re:Why all the secrecy on DVD specs? (Score:2)
Re:DVD writers (Score:1)
I don't know if they have writers that can do 17GB yet, maybe those are the $18,000 ones.
Re:why regional encoding? copyrights (Score:2)
Not true. Actually region coding exists due to the fact that movie studios want to independently control the timing of releases in different markets. They don't want American Matrix DVDs available in England before it's finished the first theatrical run there, or they've sold the pay-per-view rights, or whatever. With VCRs this used to be taken care of by the serendipitous (from their perspective) incompatibility between PAL and NTSC; now that that technical brokenness has been fixed, they have built such brokenness into the system deliberately.
Re:Regional Encoding, why? (Score:1)
Re:why regional encoding? copyrights (Score:2)
Note that a large part of the reason for different release dates is the cost of producing the films, and thus the reels of films shown in the US head overseas as theaters stop showing them. The upcoming digital methods of distribution and display may eliminate this expense and thus make simultaneous distribution possible, and region code less necessary.
I suppose one concern might be widescale pirating that occurs in some regions of the world, and thus the attempt to stop pirated DVDs flowing out of those regions. I doubt this would have much success, though, the sellers would just make US/Europe-encoded DVDs anyway.
No rebooting for me (Score:2)
With autologon, scandisk disabled, and vncserver, I was able to get rid of the monitor and input devices on the Win98 box and control it with xvncviewer.
So basically, the Windows box is now a standalone DVD player and the Linux box can function as a TV and remote.
Not very practical for most folks, but it sure is interesting.
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Re:Regional Encoding (Score:1)
Re:Regional Encoding (Score:1)
Any idea how I get in on that refferendum if the consulate here doesn't want to know about me?
"Woefully short of other operating systems" (Score:2)
Re:Creative Labs DVD And Region Selection (Score:1)
Re:Regional Encoding, why? (Score:1)
Re:A task for distributed.net? (Score:1)
-Paul Volcko
Re:Use NIST to play unencrypted DVDs(but slowly) (Score:1)
Re:Line is crossed when *gov't* says "illegal 2 mo (Score:1)
Re:Line is crossed when *gov't* says "illegal 2 mo (Score:2)
In both cases, someone gets access to something under certain conditions (you get your tape/DVD under the condition that you don't share it; they get the DVD specs on the condition they don't share it). You (presumably) said "Once this happens, it's not an industry cooperative consorium deal anymore." I was simply pointing out that enforcement of the contract between the DVD Forum and the DVD implementors is no different from the implicit contract between you and the company that produced the DVD/tape. I was just saying that it was not unconstitutional in any way, not suggesting that you bootlegged.
Again, you would not so much be in trouble (though DVD is laced with patent upon patent, so you would be in trouble if you implemented it). The company whose product you RE'd would be in trouble. Sorry for the confusion.
Re:Line is crossed when *gov't* says "illegal 2 mo (Score:1)
Re:why regional encoding? copyrights (Score:1)
Another reason for the region codes is just out of pure money making. North Americans may just buy DVDs for US$20, and consider, say US$40 to be expensive. But other regions may price it differently, to make more money out of it.
Oh, btw, I seem to recall that the DVD group is making it mandatory that all DVD-ROM drives must have non-changable region codes by sometime 2000.
As for copying the DVDs to DVD-RAM/DVD-R/etc, I'm told that the decryption key (stored on the disc) is in an area that, while readable, is already pre-burned/unburnable/unrecordable on the DVD-RAM surface, to foil image copies. Of course, I'm 99% certain there is a trivial workaround.
Re:they didn't tell me it'd be /.'ed! (Score:1)
I already have acquired myself one (as part of Creative's Encore Dxr3 6x DVD kit), and hope to be able to play my DVDs on Linux someday instead of rebooting to Win95 for the job.
Re:Write the product manufacturers (Score:1)
All I can say is.... (Score:1)
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Regional Encoding (Score:2)
Does anyone know if that (#*$*#ing) regional encoding scheme used in DVD movies is implmented in hardware, and if there is a way around it?
Here in Australia, we are part of some useless (ie, non US & non Europe) region, so we can't get many DVDs (although it does seem to have improved in the last couple of months)
I'd buy a DVD player, if I could play US movies on it.
A DVD recorder would be even better, of course.....
Re:Regional Encoding (Score:3)
Re:Regional Encoding (Score:2)
A little application called Zone Selector helps you around it.
Re:Sweet! (Score:1)
I think we all agree that you need to get rid of this one.
Or at least tell her you'll be making her part of a Beowulf cluster of girlfriends.
Thanks for the answers (Score:1)
5 minutes, 3 answers.
That's quicker than looking for it myself.
Well done, people
Re:Maybe I'm Missing Something (Score:2)
I don't think so. The MPEG implementations of Linux are just the public ones submitted at the MPEG comittees, and are just proof of concept ; some have tweaked them to get something useable, but it is more likely to segmentation fault or be sloooooow, than not. Linux is far behind the quality of Windows Players. The other problem is patents. I think Paul Volko is overly optimistic: they do apply to software, and yes, the MPEG contributors do want money for them. They have a whole company to manage the MPEG patent portfolio, and they claim royalties even per stream. For me this was a show-stopper when I considered contributing.
Re:All I can say is.... (Score:1)
With that "Thank God" you are right.
http://www.dvdutils.com/ (Score:1)
Write the product manufacturers (Score:1)
Creative
c/o Customer Service
1523 Cimarron Plaza
Stillwater, OK 74075
US
I got an e-mail address from a CSR, but she "did not know if it would reach them," the address is custserv@clok.creaf.com
Remember: Polite requests go much farther than flamage.
"Trouble is, just because it's obvious doesn't mean it's true"
Reverse engineering (Score:2)
Or am I missing something?
BTW: woohoo!
why regional encoding? copyrights (Score:2)
From the producer's standpoint, different regions cost them more money because they have to produce seperate versions of the same product. So I'm sure they'd rather just produce one version if they could. Instead we wind up with discs that are "for sale in US or Canada only" or some such nonesense.
In short, I think this is more the work of the Big Bad Lawyers rather than the work of the Big Bad Producers. The moviemakers *do* want your money for their product, after all.
Linux is always lag behind ...! (Score:2)
Limited zone-switching built in (Score:1)
Why all the secrecy on DVD specs? (Score:1)
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This is a constitutional issue, IMO.
--------------------------------------------
Gov't appears to be sanctioning free speech (movies) from being heard by people in a detailed list of countries. Conversely, gov't is sanctioning the deliberate blocking of its own citizens from hearing the speech of others from foreign lands by meking it "illegal".
I think that region lockouts are unconstitutional if there is any gov't involvement in the industry sponsered lockout scheme whatsoever. And gov't making region defeats illegal is making free speech illegal. I'd call that BIGTIME involvement.
I just wanna watch the movies I buy. Does this make me a criminal?
Electronics makers wanted region locks killed. (Score:1)
Re:Regional Encoding (Score:1)
Re:Referendum (Score:1)
Why doesn't the cosulate want to know about you?
If you are a citizen and over 18, you should be able to vote.
Re:DVD writers (Score:1)
I'm reasonably sure that DVD-RAM currently is only useful as a backup medium. At least I haven't seen anything about writers that will do what I want. Which is write a DVD, then take it over to a friends house, so they can read the disk on their crappy $80 IDE dvd-rom drive.
Re:Regional Encoding, why? (Score:1)
Re:Maybe I'm Missing Something (Score:1)
At any rate, I would be overly optimistic if I were claiming that we intend to give the LSDVD player away for free. I'm not, though. I am most certain that it will cost something. If we are lucky enoguh to find a company willing to eat the cost of royalties (assuming they get some greater value from the distribution of the player) then and only then will this be freely available.
I'm not sure what you're saying I'm being over optimistic about. If it is the patent issues, specifically with MPEG-2, I point you to the MEPGLA website: http://www.mpegla.com Their licensing structure is such that implementations of the mpeg-2 codecs are freely distributable. They don't want anything on them. But they do garnish royalties on use of an MPEG-2 codec in a player application. The per stream part is only really applicable to digital TV encoders/streamers and possible some really nifty multi-stream decoders. This does not apply to simple dvd playback.
- Paul Volcko
Re:Reverse engineering (Score:1)
It is not okay simply because I mentioned it
-Paul Volcko
they didn't tell me it'd be /.'ed! (Score:5)
Anyway, I gotta say something that was sort of left out of the interview. From reading what Paul said, it sounds pretty much like the LSDVD [rit.edu] project is all about taking all the pieces related to a DVD player and glueing them togeather. This might be an initial goal, but let me assure you that the groups final goal is to produce a complete, stable, open sourced (as much as possible) DVD player for linux. This would include support for various MPEG decoder cards as well as a software decoding module (which is what I am working on now). The AC-3 audio encoding might have to be written by us as well, I'm not sure about the licensing issues with that.
One question that wasn't really asked was: What have we written so far? Well, we're attacking it from two different sides. 1) we have code to parse all the nasty VOB blocks and headers, but we can't get to the straight MPEG stream because of the encryption, so 2) we are working separatly on code to read the DVD implementation of the MPEG-2 standard. There's plenty of code, but it doesn't do much more than print numbers to the screen.
And what about the time frame? Well, the three of us are all in different places right now, and development is lagging because of it. But next month we all return back to the old skool and that's when the project will begin to bear fruit. We hope to have a usable (or at least demonstratable) program by April 2000 (after we've all dropped out of school or died because of sleep deprivation).
Carpe Diem,
-Dave Klint
new Dream Theater [dreamtheater.net] Oct 26. Giddy!
Re:Sweet! (Score:1)
-Paul Volcko
UDF support in 2.3.17 (read only) (Score:2)
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From: Dave Boynton, dboynton@worldnet.att.net
Subject: UDF filesystem patch for 2.2.12
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 02:08:43 GMT
I've made a new UDF filesystem patch for kernel 2.2.12. You can get it at: http://trylinux.com/projects/udf /udf-latest.tar.gz [trylinux.com] (about 70k)
The module has been tested by a diverse group for some months now, with no reports of meltdowns, so it's probably safe to include in the 2.2 source tree. It was included in the 2.3 tree in version 2.3.17.
I can say from observation that UDF use, in the form of DirectCD written CDRs, has become very widespread across businesses. Having at least read-only support in the Linux kernel would be a definite plus.
Unfortunately, write support will have to wait, as the write support in this driver doesn't work with CDR/CDRWs yet.
Dave Boynton
dave@trylinux.com
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Looks like UDF will be supported in 2.4.
Re:Maybe I'm Missing Something (Score:2)
Note however that we may be approaching Arron Holtzman and Joachim Koenig about working out some kind of special license (non-GPL) so that we can do two things:
1) Contribute back any optimizations that we make to the codecs.
2) Be able to not publish the full version of the codecs which may end up haivng CSS code weaved into them.
This all remains to be seen, though. We havce a few other things to get finished up first, before we start getting into some serious work on the software playback codecs.
- Paul Volcko
Re:Why all the secrecy on DVD specs? (Score:2)
The DVD Forum came up with the DVD Spec. They then sell it to companies under NDAs for quite a bit of money. But built into the NDA that you have to sign to see it is the requirement that you make your player play only one region and don't let people reverse engineer your software (it has to be hard). If either one of these fails, you are in breach of contract with some of the largest corporations on the planet and will be in some serious trouble. It's only by their good graces or because they don't care enough yet that they haven't gone after the guilty yet.
You would not be in any more trouble reverse engineering the stuff than you would REing any random program. It's the company which didn't obscure its program that gets in trouble.
Re:Regional Encoding (Score:1)
If anyone has a windows based software DVD player it's easy to change the region. It's a simple egistry entry change for directshow engine based players (Cinemaster[this includes ATI]/WinDVD/Mediamatics/Newer Zoran players).
There are also other region selectors for Creative hardware based DVD players as well as Hollywood+. I'll leave it up to the unscrupulous to find the files themselves though
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Re:Limited zone-switching built in (Score:1)
Re:they didn't tell me it'd be /.'ed! (Score:2)
we are working separatly on code to read the DVD implementation of the MPEG-2 standard. There's plenty of code, but it doesn't do much more than print numbers to the screen.
Great! So I can already watch The Matrix on DVD!
Re:RPC2 required by whom? Who wrote RPC2? Authorit (Score:1)
If you don't follow their rules, they revoke your access to the specs and impose a rather serious fine.
Go to the DVD Forum's web site and read this crap for yourself. (http://www.dvdforum.org/ [dvdforum.org])
Re:Why all the secrecy on DVD specs? (Score:1)
Re:Regional Encoding, why? (Score:1)
Movies are released in different areas at different times. For example, a movie may be released to DVD in the US just as it hits the screens in Oz. But the industry doesn't like people being able to mail-order a US DVD from Oz and see a movie before they've cashed in on the box office sales.
The error(s) in their logic... how much is a movie ticket? How much is the DVD? Would you never go to a theater to see the movie just because you own the DVD?
Personally, I spend way more on videos (tapes/DVDs) than I do on movie tickets. And I often will see a movie in a theater even after I own the video -- not many people have a "home theater".
For the record, region coding is NOT "copy protection" as such it's not illegal in that sense. If anything, defeating the region coding would be a breach of the EULA for the software and/or hardware.
As was mentioned on the LiVid mailing list [openprojects.net], it's not the home user pimping gigs of MPEG files that MPAA should be worried about. It's the Asian copy houses capable of de-compositing a pressed CD to make a master and then spit out thousands of copies. [* [openprojects.net] ] Correct me if anyone's tried this, but the home user has no way of making a DVD-ROM playable in a stand-alone DVD player. I don't know of any that will read a DVD-RAM. (Disclaimer: I've not wasted my money on a DVD-RAM, yet.)
DVD writers (Score:1)
Re:No current players mod w remote or single solde (Score:1)
Re:they didn't tell me it'd be /.'ed! (Score:1)
-Paul Volcko
Re:Regional Encoding (Score:1)
I seriously doubt pioneer PC DVD drives would try to arbitrarily read and find a region on every disc inserted into the drive.
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Re:Use NIST to play unencrypted DVDs(but slowly) (Score:1)
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Re:Regional Encoding (Score:1)
Re:Maybe I'm Missing Something (Score:1)
On the subject of video codecs, I know of two people that are writing high performance video codecs from scratch. One of them is me, the other is a secret. Four months seems to be a reasonable target for the fruits of these efforts.
- Aaron Holtzman
What about WINE? (Score:1)
--
Ernest MacDougal Campbell III / NIC Handle: EMC3