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More Mission-Critical Linux 97

Posted by Hemos from the fun-with-good-press dept.
A reader sent us a Datamation article talking about the use of Linux by Southwestern Bell. That's right-if you are in MO or KA, your phone call made it through thanks to Linux. Good press is always nice to see.Update: 09/02 12:06 by H : Yep, I'll admit it. I'm an idiot. Kansas is KS, not KA.
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More Mission-Critical Linux More

More Mission-Critical Linux

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  • This is the type of thing at which unix systems
    excel. It's nice to see that more and more companies are realizing that NT just can't handle this type of thing effectively. It's also nice to see that the unix of choice is increasingly linux.
  • I really like the "Linux means business" column in
    Linux-journal. Are there any websites/articles/whatever with info/articles about the firms that rely on linux each day?
  • It's a trade rag, you you would expect a bit better than the media at large.

    They can get some stuff right:

    Linux--the UNIX-like operating system

    But other stuff so wrong:

    SGI revealed that it is dumping IRIX, its own version of UNIX, in favor of Linux

    Not!

    I was also amused to see that they are running Red Hat 4.2. Assuming they got that detail correct :)

  • Yes, as a contractor currently placed here in Kansas, I can verify that my paychecks say KS when they mail them to me.

  • this is bad (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 01, 1999 @10:34AM (#1710946)
    i live in kansas and i think this will make the phones unstable cuz linux is a slow bugged virus infested OS made by crakers. this is my o pin yun. if you disagree then ur dumb!!! z3r0kewl453@aol.com mail me!!!
  • When the phone calls always go through and a bill arrives every month without fail (yuck!) I doubted it was the hyped borg software of a Big Evil Software Company behind it all. Unlike a certain naval destroyer that had a "invalid entry" that crashed the *entire network* the phone company seems to be put together with common sense, not marketing. Nothing like peer reviewed software watching all those switches.
  • (I know, Linux Is Not UniX)
    now, who would have ever guessed.

    Another one saved from the dark side.

    Chuck
  • "Kessell calculates that his department has had to hire one less technician, at an average salary of around $40,000 a year, because of Linux' reliability."

    Hmmm. This could be bad for Network Admins or IS ppl. More Linux=Less Jobs???
  • Wish I had mod access.... Used to get it all the time, now I don't :(.

  • I have to wonder why they chose Linux... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Instead of FreeBSD. It being technically superior and all.

    OK. That was a troll.

    "Keeping them running, however, has required only about one-tenth of one percent of his group's system administration time. Kessell calculates that his department has had to hire one less technician, at an average salary of around $40,000 a year, because of Linux' reliability."

    Read "Linux costs jobs in Kansas." Certainly if I were a Windows Consultant, I wouldn't want to dry up a potential cash cow by installing a remarkably stable and reliable operating system on a customer's computers. Not when I can continue to rake in those big bucks fixing their system every few weeks at $120+ an hour.

    OK. That was a troll too.

    "This is partly because, in many regards, Linux is still an immature operating system, says Potter. Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) support for Linux, for example, only became available earlier this year."

    Um, excuse me? I've been using it for close to 3 on my dual pentium box. Please don't quote crack monkies in the future.

  • I know this was a sarcastic post, but I guess the non-sarcastic point to make here is that Linux, for all of its good points, is definitely an outsider in most companies. Not necessarily ill-thought-of (esp. in the IT depts) but IT departments are not the only ones involved.

    That's why it's interesting when big companies (or small companies, for that matter) have evaluated Linux (and probably the other obvious choices made by MS, or other versions of UNIX) and said "Hey, we'll go with choice B, which is cheap and has lots of good features!" rather than choice A, conservative and ubiquitous.

    I think even people who like the MS OSes would find this an interesting piece of news. The status quo isn't as interesting ...

    It's neat if a person lives to be 120 then jumps straight into Paradise; much less so when a person dies at 79 of long-known causes. Eh?

    timothy
  • More like, more Linux, less busy-work, no company pager calling you into the office at 2 AM to fix all the crashes, etc.

    Anything that increases the productivity of a technical person is great. It means that one techie can do even more stuff without breaking a sweat, and the more stuff you can take care of, the more value you create and the more money you can make. Or haven't you noticed that people whose productivity is stagnant, like floor-sweepers, haven't enjoyed the same run-up in income as the tech sector? Remember that.

  • As a resident of the much maligned state of Kansas...Yes it is "KS."

    Cody in Lawrence (Birthplace of Lynx)
  • agreed.
    There are years of hard work and careful design in the Linux kernel and gnu packages that make up the o/s. It didnt happen by random chance. It makes a perfect Kansas showcase of "intelligent design".
  • "...none of the Linux systems has ever failed." ;)

  • HOWTO: Avoiding Linux Stories. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Okay. You don't like it? Then:

    1. Get an account at Slashdot.

    2. Go to your Preferences Page.

    3. Scroll down until you see the "Exclude Stories from the Homepage" section.

    4. Select "Linux" from "Topics".

    5. Scroll down until you see the "saveuser" button.

    6. Click it.

    7. Shut the fsck up.

    Thank you.
  • Also, Linux did not get SMP support earlier this year. It got BETTER SMP support, but it had it prior to this. Or maybe I'm mistaken and the company I worked for last year just imagined that they had a dual ppro-180 running linux (which did report both cpus). Other than a few nits I think it was an excellent article overall. I really love the part about linux saving them adminning time and cost. Especially since microsoft is spewing FUD about how Linux might cost less upfront but requires more money do admin.

  • SMP (Score:1)

    by zuvembi ( 30889 )
    This is partly because, in many regards, Linux is still an immature operating system, says Potter. Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) support for Linux, for example, only became available earlier this year."

    I sent the author a note to the effect that this was bunk, he got back to me and acknowledged that he was incorrect. However, whether that means a correction will ever be posted is another matter.
  • I assume you are referring to the navy ship that had to be towed back in because the entire ships system went down over their control box doing a blue screen... I would suspect if it had gotten much better since then we would have heard about it from the microsoft PR trolls.
  • IIRC the kernel shipped w/ RedHat 4.2 (had to be something in 2.x right?) had some potential jiffy wrap around bugs that occured at 465 days or so on intel. I think the problems have been fixed by now, I just hope they've tested these systems or else they might get it hard in a little while. Although the bugs weren't always serious, afaik the only reported problem was uptime reporting 0days of uptime after 465 days.
  • When I upgraded from 4.2, I knew it was a mistake.
    This just confirms it.

    The best releases (of RH... maybe) are behind us, but the best is yet to come.


    "Well, thats a dumb idea." - Peter Cord of the Jupiter Consultants Group on embedded linux
  • Southwestern bell operates in other states besides MO and KS, including a large part of Arkansas.

    Not that I'm defending them. They're good intentioned, customer service is very polite (my company leases about 8 voice T1s), but man they sure are slow to bring services to us (at least in AR).

    We just now got ISDN in my home town. THIS YEAR, 1999. xDSL probably won't be here for a decade. *sigh*

    James
  • Take a look at the article again. Specially the part which talks about IBM products and Lotus products. she mentions there that THERE WILL BE A LOTUS NOTES CLIENT.. Does she knows anything that wasn't announced yet??
  • You mean you have TELEPHONES in arkansas??

    Well I just thought I would beat any smart ass bastard to the punch since people actually think we walk around without shoes here (well maybe we do in the summer..).

    No seriously. We're not ALL hillbillies (although its against the law in the state to make fun of hillbillies).

    Have a good one:)
    James
  • What do you think happened to all the whip and buggy makers at the turn of the century? They got jobs somewhere else. Besides have you noticed? There aren't a shortage of jobs in the US.

    Or maybe those NT admins that would have been working in Kansas are out of work, at home, and making prank calls all day.
  • Now, now... You forget that Hemos also failed grade school geography as well as spelling and english... :-)

    BTW -- No offense intended Hemos, I am just kidding.

  • at an average salary of around $40,000 a year

    Wow, they find cheap technicians. Around here (only about 3 hours from KC) you can't touch a decent tech for less than about $45-$50k. That also doesn't figure in benefits or expenses (a computer, a phone, a desk, etc) related to having an employee. The salary is just one factor (albiet a large one) in the cost of an employee.

  • Re:One less employee? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    In that case, why not poison the food in your company's cafeteria, because that'll keep the doctors in business. And also let's remove the sprinkler systems, to put food on the firefighters' tables. Hmmm, and go back to using typewriters, because many a typewriter technician has been put out of work with this new computer fad. Actually, let's get rid of publishing and printing presses altogether, because far too many a professional scribe has been itching for work in the last several hundred years.

    It's called progress!! People's occupations change to adapt to the current state of technology. It really pisses me off to see how people's greed for money stagnates the advancement of humanity. For example, audio CD's were capable of being produced long before they were actually produced, but record companies wanted to milk as much out of the tape market as they could. This type of thing permeates the whole economy, argh!

    Anyway, I'd rather have my job easier than keep another fat M$ techie in business by fixing my computer several times per year. It's cheaper for all involved, and if this techie then quit and learned linux, (s)he could make a far more respectable living as well!

  • Two things - the article said, near the end, that they were able to hire one less technician because Linux never failed them. Hmmm. If Linux takes over, then there are going to be some techs out of business (mostly MSCE's, but still....) Next - WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE WINDOWS 2000. Nothing else is going to give use Linux users a sea of free hardware - PII MINIMUM for W2K. I can still run Linux fine on a Pentium 233 MMX with a 4 gig HD - but those will be almost free after W2k comes out.
    Just some thoughts..........
    http://www.bombcar.com It's where it is at.
  • I was also amused to see that they are running Red Hat 4.2. Assuming they got that detail correct :)

    A lot of people don't run recent distributions on production machines because they don't want to tinker with a working system (one can certainly debate the wisdom of that). Another thing to consider is the lead time between when stories are written and published. When it comes to webified versions, there is sometimes a lag between when the online version appears and the print version (to help keep the paper circulation going I guess).

  • Here [sciam.com] is an article about the ship that went down--I think this is the incident you're referring to. Most amusing.
  • I was under the impression that this had already been announced awhile ago. Maybe I heard it as a rumor and it fit with IBM's rush into Linux in recent times so I believed it.
  • Damn. I love making fun of them. Anyways, in Little Rock, SWBell has brought in xDSL service, up to Sherwood, and in Cabot, the local cable company offers cable modems. Now I live in Jacksonville, so...


    Hurry up GT(fscking)E!! Get OUT!

  • Re:So when can we start posting... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yep, this is Slashdot, not the Bill Gates Fellatio Club. If you don't like it, go read MSNBC...
  • phone company == penny pinching == interns ;)

    Yes, even interns can admin Linux boxes - it's that easy.

    --
  • WHY THEY DON'T RUN NT

    I understand, sir. We'll dispatch the police to your house just as soon as we reboot. Please stay on the line, sir. Is the murderer nearby? Yes sir, I understand, but please stay on the line, we're rebooting. Please hold! Scandisk is still running. It'll only be a bit longer. OKAY, THERE'S NO NEED TO SCREAM! Please stay on the line. Sir, I'm sorry, it looks like we've got a problem here... a registry corruption. It won't boot. Can you hold a bit longer? Sir? Sir? What was that screaming sound? Oh, hell... blue screen again.
  • As this article correctly points out, the failure occurred in the application -- not Windows NT itself. The divide-by-zero condition caused the program to go into a tight loop, which made it unresponsive to other applications across the network that depended on it. The result was a chain reaction that evidently froze control of the propulsion system. Also, if I remember correctly, the failure of the NT application did *not* cause the ship to be towed into port, although it did force the ship to idle at sea for several hours while the network was rebooted -- the towing incident resulted from some other, unspecified failure related to the use of on-board LAN technology, in which NT may or may not have been the culprit.

    Shortly after these incidents, they were reported in a single article (Computer Reseller News, I believe) at moderately competent detail, based largely on the complaints of the "whistle blower" mentioned in this article as well. But that one CRN article was summarized with diminishing fidelity in several other editorials, which were then widely replicated thanks to the magic of syndication, and the incident eventually became the part of Windows folklore in mutated form, along the lines of "the main server blue-screened when the navigator punched in a new course".

    It hardly seems fair to blame NT for an application failure. Moreover, the complaints about the Navy cutting costs by using NT seem targeted instead at the broader isssue of replacing expensive, but reliable, fault-tolerant systems with commodity and LAN-based technology, rather than an attack on NT itself. As described, this type of failure could have happened just as easily if the on-board systems had been running Linux.

  • Maybe I misread something, but it didn't seem like Linux, contrary to Hemos's claim, had anything to do with people's phone calls going through. The story sounded like Bell was just using Linux for monitoring, not that it was doing any of the actual grunt work; i.e., Linux is just making sure that the computers actually running the show are operating properly. The statement that Linux was only used in about 10% of the computers seems to jibe with this.

    Cheers,
    ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

  • Was this report made public? Why did the Boeing
    execs reject it - do they give a detailed explanation?
  • Also, they also mentioned that the average uptime was 318 days, and that one had been running continuously since it was turned on in April 1998. I don't think RH 5.1 was yet available, and considering all the trouble that RH 5.0 had, I can understand them skipping that release.
    -----------
  • You get an A in Econ. The Fewer people doing the job means $ for the company and the worker, and with IT the work is never done. His comment is a nice reminder of MS innovation however.
  • This sounds like the true voodoo economics of Keynes where $1 of snot is worth $1 oatmeal. Paying somone for nothing is a $1's worth of snot.
    I prefer oatmeal in the morning myself.
    Much of this silly way of thinking can be found in the media where economic good news is counted in "job creation" instead of wealth creation. Job creation can augment distribution of wealth but productive jobs do both (distribution and creation of wealth). Two hundred years ago employment was 100% in a realitively unproductive agrarian society.
    Sorry for the Econ. lecture in a tech forum but it is a pet peev of mine and productivity is what this game is about.
  • Penquins are better dressed than many IT managers?
    MIS curriculum has in my opinion an emphasis on the M-management instead of information technology
    in the IT; I have seen some of the curriculum myself. If the aftershave on the suit smells better than the B.O. behind coke bottle glasses then the CIO goes with the suit.
    In other words upper management has no clue what the heck is going on in technology.
  • _diseased_ donkey nuts?
    LOL _comedic_ innovation

  • I don't think most places have all the staff they need right now. So, maybe Linux will not get rid of jobs, just make life a little less hectic for all the overworked sysadmins out there.
  • I have to concede that you're right about the ship. The first reports contained claims that I interpreted as strong circumstantial evidence that the problem was a BSOD, but what little info has dribbled out since then does not seem to support that idea.

    Without reference to NT, I think the Navy's COTS policy is dangerously insane, and if the whistleblower was right it seems to be a push from a single highly-placed individual that no one can/will stand up to. One can only hope he's due to retire soon, and be replaced by someone who knows the difference between a capital ship and a consumer desktop.

    Truth is, I wouldn't even recommend Linux in that particular role, at least not unless they "certified" some version after an extensive audit.

    Also, COTS or no, it's alarming that such a simple error wasn't caught by testing on dry land. I doubt that the ship was ever in the least danger (barring a surprise war), but a sea trial was a pretty expensive way to catch one of the most basic of errors ("test the input at the extremities").

    Get a clue, Navy. Too cheap can turn out to be unaffordably expensive. A system is no more reliable than the software that runs it, and I notice that you aren't turning to COTS ships and aircraft yet.

  • The problem is, as soon as the engineers sign off on the testing and verification, Bill Gates walks through the lab and says "Make it more like the Mac."

  • NT has AUTOCHK/CHKDSK not scandisk.

    Sorry. I have seen it run so many times lately...
  • Because it has such a grave consequence, a divide by zero generates an interrupt. At least on the x86 and I'm pretty sure on all other archs too (correct me if I'm wrong). This interrupt is trappable and the OS should respond accordingly. Linux will core dump as will other UNIX's. So really it is the OS's fault for not catching this.
    IMVHO
  • Wow, they find cheap technicians. Around here (only about 3 hours from KC) you can't touch a decent tech for less than about $45-$50k. That also doesn't figure in benefits or expenses (a computer, a phone, a desk, etc) related to having an employee. The salary is just one factor (albiet a large one) in the cost of an employee.

    Heh here in NJ you cant touch a decent Unix admin
    for under 70k:) And being a Unix Admin I like it
    that way:) But yes there are a lot more expenses
    that go into an employee then salary. You need to
    pay the other 1/2 of social security, Workers
    Comp..etc. About 20k of my per hour income goes
    into paying those things and benefits for myself.
    (I am a contractor). And then I get the remainder
    as a paycheck which gets hit with income taxes,
    social security, etc.. figure in just salary alone
    it cost a company 20-25% more then what you get.
    and as the previous poster pointed out. there are
    the other associated expenses to help you do your
    job. Unfortunatly I have a bad feeling that if
    linux becomes prevolent and replaces OS's like
    solaris and HP in the corporate environment we may
    see a reduction in admin salaries. "Why do I have
    to pay a senior unix admin 80k-110k admin a free
    os?" (NY/NJ pay scale). Of course I could be
    wrong:) Not like it hasnt happened before:)

    Malice95



  • What is Redhat, Suse, Caldera doing anyway? I saw a catalog once in the mail, Uline I think. They sell shrinkwrap and packaging material. Hey UPS and Federal Express have packaging materials. Is there a FedX Linux? I want to be the first in line for HallMark Linux they have great cards. Here 's a question. "How many people take their cars to the dealership?". How can it be? People who work on cars not manufacturing it? If people can not see that service does not have to come from the original vendor by now I am going to stop watching the X-files because it scares me to think that human race is being observed.
  • Instead of giving a short pathetic statement like that, then impart upon us what system could handle dynamic web pages of such magnititude. Remember Microsoft NT touts static web page performance, but crashes and burns on dynamic web page serving.

    Do you know the difference...probably not. Ohhh the gloves are off. En garde!

    BTW ask Rob Malda et all how many pages, not hits, but pages this sucker deals with.

    Ohh, and one more thing. That is the dumbest comparison - apples and oranges.

    The Internet grows at a phenominal rate...hmm I wonder how much the load a nuclear power plant increases in comparison to the growth of the internet (in the same time span)

    Just in case you reply to this, and just in case you tout Microsoft (please don't - it shows your a monkey sys admin that likes your work done for you) please remember Hotmail.

    Maybe the Slashdot crew should run their system on an OS of your choice, oh wise all-knowing-one. Do you have a choice they could use, or did you just throw a comment out without thinking that you would have to come up with a better alternative.

    Mr anonymous user...get a userid, log in and show yourself. >-) Ppppplease

    Ahhh- that venting felt good. Thank You.
  • Then why has the use of Linux jumped to 17% market share. Go to www.linux.com (results from well known independent firm). Jack$ss.
  • Hey... are you a member of the Kansas skool bored
  • sorry the tite isn't about the article, I just saw an add with a girl eating a scorpion...
    Well, maybe this will help Linux go mainstream.
    More Linux companies need to do like RedHat and gain money to become more powerful and better know than they are now.
    Educate the people and they WILL switch.
  • Still and all, there's this [opensourceit.com] to consider. Skip straight to the bottom paragraph, where you'll find a small raspberry for Redmond. From Boeing.

  • Ease on over to the FAQ and you'll see that they're running their forms, filters, database, page generation, and page server all on a single PII 450. And they get enough hits to squash even a medium-sized commercial site merely by posting a link to a story there.

    How many Proliants with 4 CPUs and 4 NICs would it take to bear that load under your favorite OS?

  • divide by zero is a common error in application coding... there is no excuse for an o/s to crash because of it.
  • On that note, here is one more place [shoebox.net] that should be using linux... Oh well, we can only hope.

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