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SuSE Businesses

SuSE 6.2 in August 153

Posted by CmdrTaco from the escalatign-distro-warfare dept.
Desperado wrote in to tell us that according to This InfoWeek Story, the 6.2 release of SuSE is scheduled for August and will have new/updated packages including IBM's ViaVoice, XF86 3.3.4 and VMware 1.0.
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SuSE 6.2 in August More

SuSE 6.2 in August

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  • SUSE has been the stable envirement for Linux since SuSE 5.0 for many of us. And Red Hat, Debian and Caldera have all been less successful. So since this site seems choc full of Debian and Red Hat users primarily, it's no wonder SuSE get's slammed. YaST continues to be the reason many users like SuSE. I personally prefer the hierarchy
    and scripting. But it's just that it suits me.
    -Dee
  • i just installed 5.0, and then later that night G2 (after i found out it had been released.) no problem with either on my suse 6.1 box...

  • OSS (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    More FUD.

    It isn't a full version of OSS (it only supports the cards supported in OSS/Free) and I it is redistributible. You can rip CDs all you want. The catch is that only the original owner is licensed to use it. SuSE does their part to enforce the license by putting the serial#/key in the printed manual.

  • Lets say SuSE GPL's YAST. So what, is redhat gonna use it? Debian? Caldera? bfd on gpl'ing a distro's config tool. The value added of the config is the only thing that makes distro's truly worth paying for.

    You imply that it should be obvious that making YAST free software would not impact other distributions much. If that is so obvious then why doesn't SuSE just do that then? Unfortunately, I believe they do not find this to be so obvious

    I do not mean to trash SuSE; they do good things, but OTOH they are not doing the free software community any favors by making YAST non-free.

  • But Netscape is clearly identifiable as proprietary and is certainly not essential to a distribution, as, say, YAST is to SuSE. YAST is more insidious in the sense that it is almost free, but not really. These kind of silly games do not help the free software effort. Again, SuSE may be a great distribution, but if it is so great -- and I do not doubt that it is, why don't they just rely on that merit instead of sneaking in with an almost-but-not-quite-free license of YAST?
  • Sorry, I'm not a geek extraordinaire...so I love SuSE. The SuSE 6.1 distro is the only distro I've been 100% successful with... and I love having EVERYTHING on CD.

    I'll buy 6.2. I like the convenience of having it all in one place and with one unified setup interface (YaST).

    -MVK
  • Perhaps SuSE waited to put together the new version untill the new XFree86 came out.

    But that's not very interesting.

    Thomas Kerwin
    --Knowledge is Power
  • I used kpackage's "replace package" option, which is good enough on other rpm-based distros(RH6, COL 2.2) to replace or upgrade the rpms and not mess up the database. I'm not sure if I'm correct in explaining it, but SuSE doesn't include some certain headers in their rpm's. Annoying.
  • I actually posted it on newsgroups several times. And my question even appeared in Ask Slashdot section. Here is the link

    Did you ever get that fixed, how? (Sounds like messed up routing to me...)

  • "Such programs include VMware 1.0, a shareware program"
    Excuse me, but if people want to try this out and pay for it, can't they just download it themselves? It's not to big and all, and why do we put shareware(==buyware) on cd's you already paid more then enuff for?
    Is it me, or Debian the only distribution really understanding Linux spirit?
  • Shareware has been one of the driving forces in software development for years...

    Think of how many great products (well mostly for the dos/windows market) there are out there which are shareware or donationware? How many companies SOLY rely on shareware that are now power houses? McAfee and such. People which are just in a "if its not GPL it ain't good" frenzy are ignorant of products which are of high quality but don't offer source code. Such ignorance might very well be what will one day bring an end to the linux movement. I sure don't hope so. But please broden your horizon shareware is the easiest way of distributing small software utilities which have to pay the rent.
  • >Linux and unix lag years behind other systems in >this regard not because of any inherent >limitations of X, but because the developers >don't care about functionality and modularity.

    That's true that there is complete lack of understanding what usable GUI concept means ( GIMP anyone ? ) but part of the problem is atributable to X itself. Even if somebody comes up with nice interface a la Windows it is usually slow like hell, does not cooperate well with other components ( this is X issue .) No matter what you do (QT, Motif or even pure Xlib), it seems like X is always slower on the same hardware ...
  • Considering how many CDs SuSE comes on, I think their philosophy must be "everything but the kitchen sink." On one hand, you can't really assume that everyone wants to surf the Internet looking for packages to install, waiting to download them (sometimes on a slow modem). There is also the remote possibility someone doesn't have access to the Internet, or not enough to make it practical. Otherwise, why buy a distribution at all when you can download it?
  • Are you using some dort of exotic Video card ? something that even the SVGA driver couldn't deal with ?

    I was using a RIVA 128 for SuSE 6.0, and then upgraded to a RIVA TNT when I installed SuSE 6.1. Both boards are supported by XFree86 3.3.3.1.

    TedC

  • Re:vmware included (Score:3)

    by Stonehand ( 71085 ) on Saturday July 24, 1999 @06:00AM (#1786211) Homepage
    ...because if it's bundled, they can spend the time making sure it works with their configuration? That makes it easier on the less-geeky users who

    a) might not have network connections, or find PPP setup confusing

    b) have never installed a program in their life (*lots* of people) and really don't want to learn how, particularly when there may be interesting configuration issues.

    Think about it. There are people who want to try Linux, but have no idea about how to administer such a system. If they're coming from the Win9X side, they'll probably be expecting things like "InstallShield" -- and even that probably confuses people. These are probably not people who want to learn the ins and outs of package managers, or even what ".tgz" means.
  • It's my understanding that the SuSe box set comes with 6 CD's. I would assume one of these would be a base CD, which would be freely rip-able. So if you had bought/were to buy it, it would not be a problem to burn copies of the base CD, the remaining CD's would be the legally shaky ones.

    Can someone confirm/correct this.
  • The blurb claims that SuSE 6.2 will include Real Audio/Real Player 5.0, but I'd be surprised if they could pull off the inclusion of this software.

    Real Audio has cr*pped out on every SuSE version I've used, generating a "File compression not supported" error. I've yet to hear of anyone using this product with any SuSE upgrade of late.

    I'll doff my hat to the SuSE folks if they can successfully configure Real Audio to run with their product.
  • The main point is - who is using Linux as a client system or home computer or
    to get work done of any kind ? It seems that Linux is mostly used for servers,
    so why is all the fuss about distributions and Gnome and Kde when nobody is
    using these things but a handfull of geeks trying to impress each other with
    how geeky they are?

    Well, with an estimated user base of 12-15 million, I'd have to assume that the
    bulk of Linux use is in fact desktop rather than server. The server market just
    isn't that big. A slashdot demographics poll, as well as personal experience,
    would seem to indicate that a lot of Linux desktop usage is by college
    students. Students grow up to become project managers and IT professionals, so
    this would appear to be rather ominous for Microsoft. The reason students use
    Linux is often for cost - the applications they need to use are free.

    Servers don't need desktops, browsers, paint programs and word processors.
    With only 2% of the desktop units having Linux installed, regardless of the
    intense hype which has been going on for over a year now in the media and on the
    internet, why do you think things will change?

    First off, it *is* changing, whether you or I think it's going to or not! The
    Linux growth numbers over the last few years are phenomenal. The reason I see
    this trend continuing is becuase (as indicated in my initial post) the Linux
    competition, as well as development model, is causing Linux to evolve and
    improve *much* faster than enything else.

    In my opinion, all these projects to develop consumer and desktop and
    workstation apps and subsystems for Linux will be abandoned when the
    developers realize that nobody but a tiny handfull of geeks is using them or
    even wants to.

    The Linux installed base and growth rates speak for themselves. The other fact
    that points to futher Linux growth and problems for Microsoft are the rapidly
    decreasing PC prices. A $199 or $395 PC simply cannot include that $80 Windows
    licence - that means that either it's not going to be Windows based, or that
    Windows licence prices are going to come way down (which I assume will happen,
    but am not sure how effective it will be to turn the tide).

    There's also simple momentum in Linux's favor. The amount of hype (justified or
    not) around Linux is huge, as is the army of Linux evangelists. Press
    anouncments like that of the SuSE 6.3 release are going to catch more people's
    attention, particularly those looking for a cheaper alternative... Windows
    developement has essentially stalled. Windows 2000 only a coupld of months ago
    reached the point where more bugs were being fixed per day than new bugs were
    being generated - this does not look like a product that will change the Linux
    vs NT server momentum. Also, Microsoft still doesn't have an SMP capable desktop
    OS, and the technical hurdles of making anything NT based backwards compatible
    with Win98 apps seems *very* problematic.

  • Because our government at least doesn't allow software patents (yet).
    And we have a far advanced telephone system ("thanks" to the higher telephone costs.):-)
  • I moved away from Windows to get away from the bloatware, among other things. So much for Linux being small, fast, and efficient. While newbies may not be able to handle advanced distros such as Slack and Debian, do they really need a repackaged version of WinBlows 95? Because if this trend keeps up, that's what they'll be getting.
    Our wretched species is so made that those who walk on the well-trodden path always throw stones at those who are showing a new road.
  • You *rarely* need to use the "mount command" in SuSE or other distributions. To me, it's sad that newbies are advised to use such primitive and archaic methods to access removable media.

    In SuSE, you usually access the distribution CDs via YAST. This is simply the "SuSE way" : do eerything through YAST ( or /etc/rc.config ). Some newbies love this, but if you don't like doing it this way, you are better off with another distribution.

    Of course, the other way of accessing removable media is to install an automounter. Redhat comes with autofs. I can't remember what SuSE has.

    I agree with your comments that SuSE's bugs go un-noticed. My opinion is that Redhat gets more than its due credit for bugs partly because of the disastrous 5.0 release which hurt it's rep, and partly because they actually *fix* all of their bugs ( hence have a long bugfix page giving the impression that the bugs are redhat specific, which is usually untrue. )

    Cheers,

  • Um, no. I've been using *nix systems quite happily -- of course, since I cut my teeth on DOS 2.1, and text-file hacking is no stranger to me. On the other hand, I am capable of thinking about those that aren't so inclined. Are you?

    'sides, for an MS user, I'd recommend Win95 (having a bias 'gainst IE integration). Have you forgotten that pre-9X Windows ran on DOS, and that most novice users would be just as hosed trying to understand what an EMM exclude range is, as they would be adding an account by editing /etc/passwd?
  • You mean stuff like YaST? If memory serves, SuSE includes a file describing what may or may not (such as everything in a "pay" directory) can be legitimately redistributed. It'd be more of a hassle than, say, Debian, but apparently you'll still have a functional system.
  • Well, yeah. Not everybody today has joined in the deliriously fun exercise of textfile-based configuration. :-) Toss your average user at a DOS 3x system, and tell 'em to use MemMaker and manual tweaking because their latest and greatest app requires a minimum of, say, 560k conventional memory, *but* 64K (or was it 32K?) of otherwise-usable high memory had to be taken by EMS for paging, and add in a requirement for Novell Networking drivers... bwahahahahahahahaha.

    Sure, it empowers them -- but only those that know the magic syntax, or are willing to learn. That's why slackware isn't commonly recommended to people who've always thought of themselves as users, not administrators. It's probably why RH bothered to include control-panel type apps. I've never found them useful, but my background is different than that of a novice. eh.
  • If they include the LDP docs (especially the User's Guide), then perhaps that's saving duplication of effort. Most distros, after all, can be approached the same way once it's installed: Slackware-style, since all the underlying system is so very similar. Given a good text editor (vi, Emacs, jed... or even the combo of cat, cut, grep, paste, and echo...), you can run the system at as low a level you desire.

    The installation differs between distros, however. So it seems fair to concentrate on that. 'sides, perhaps it'll teach users that not all the answers can be found in one book...
  • I'm actually very pleased with SuSE 6.1! I 've tried RedHat, Debian and slackware, and this is the first distro that I was able to get X windows running (thanks much in part to the manual). Since then I've customised, gone throught the tons of programs in yast, uninstalling ones I didn't want, installing stuff that looked neat, I've downloaded other things, and it's been overall an awesome experience. My only complaint to date is that it doesn't come with glibc 2.1.x as many programs I'd like to install require this, and I'm just outta luck :(. Also maybe comming with the latest gtk would be nice also. I'll be there when 6.2 ships!

    -LogicX
  • You are a dork. Looking at your website made me laugh.
  • That was very interesting. I use Linux as my desktop, but you're right, it probably is more for the geek factor than usefulness. Things are certainly improving (as you note). One question about this line:

    Some of the Linux desktops (using E and Wmaker, for example) look good in screenshots, but very little thought or work has been put into functionality and modularity.

    Why do you say they're not modular, at least as compared to Windows? Perhaps they're not as modular as, say, the GNU command-line tools, but for GUIs (I know they're not GUIs, but that's the best generalization I can come up with) they seem to be doing pretty well (WindowMaker's dock and In what way do you mean they lack modularity? It's not that I don't believe you--I just don't understand your use of the term.
  • Not even close....
    While you can control some of the extras that Windows packs into their CD, there is a ton of stuff you have to install. True bloat.
    SuSe, on the other hand, can be minimally installed (as most other Linux distros can) and one can always but the $2 CD version at CheapBytes if one doesn't like to pay $30+ for 6 CDs.

    I, however, am looking forward to receiving my subscription of SuSE 6.2 and consider it an excellent bargin even at SuSE's prices.

    The Spirit of Linux says to me that I don't have to do things your way and you don't have to do things my way. It should also include the 11th commandment, "don't speak ill of another Linux user or distro, cause no one forces you to use the distro you've chosen"
  • >And my point is that SuSE shifted the balance to doing constant releases. You surely remember that SuSE 6.1 came out in May, don't you?

    That's why it's called a "subscription"! SuSE says that a subscription will be released every three or four months. I subscribed. I expect that SuSE will stick fairly close to that schedule. One doesn't have to subscribe. I could still be running 5.3 if I wanted to. No one forced me to upgrade to 6.0 or 6.1 nor has anyone put a gun to my head and demanded that I continue to 6.2. But I will. Obviously you won't, but there is no reason to complain about a choice that I make simply because it disagrees with yours.
  • YaST is ok.
    It is essentially a menu system to runs a set of perl wrappers that pass arguments to RPM to install, upgrade or remove packages. It also allows modification of several config files by modifying one file and then running SuSEConfig to distribute the settings to respective files. And, it allows adding packages that are not part of the CDROM set. It has some quirks - having to turn of DHCP to access base network settings, for example.
    One can also use 'tar' to add apps that aren't on the CDs. For installing binary apps or ones that don't require changing the environment or modifying existing config files the tar utility is an excellent tool.

    What I like about SuSE is that the packages on the CD's are, for the most part, preconfigured to run with the SuSE system without tinkering. It is very well integrated. This is what is meant when refering to "fine German Engineering". I have been running SuSE since last September. SuSE has a mail-list that is very well attended and two or three SuSE staff members present (Lenz, Hurbert, Josh...) and several non-SuSE folks who are very knowledgeable. A *very* nice support group, very little trash posting or politics. Those that are complaining should join the english maillist and post their problem, after they RTFM. I think they will be pleasently suprised. The manual, BTW, is much more informative than manuals put out by other distro distributors, IMHO.
    When I was running RH, and now that I'm running SUSE, I am amazed at the problems people have with their setups which they blame on their distro. Most problems, IMO, stem not from the distro but from failing to RTFM, or the HOW-TO's. There are some problems that arise from the current Linux methodology which is foreign to people recently migrated to Linux from Windows. Caldera 2.2 and other distros seem to be trying to fill that gap. Once users are used to installing Caldera and then move over to another distro the pain may not be so great.
  • #linux sucks, universally. There is no #linux channel I have been to on any network that does not suck. Such is the case for all channels named for operating platforms I imagine. (think #windowsnt, #windows95, #os/2, #unix, etc)
  • I think Red Hat still understands the spirit. Of course they have to put profits first, so they have to include free-to-use-but-non-free software on the CDs because they have to make a profit.

    Two big examples... Netscape and pine. Netscape doesn't even have source code (Mozilla is a very different animal) and pine doesn't allow one of the essentials of free software--the right to distribute modified versions. (In the case of pine some changes have been made and sooner or later if someone else doesn't I'll write to UW and ask them to make it say what the mean and maybe Debian might be able to distribute it too---possibly even in main)

    Of course mutt is still more nifty than pine. =D

  • Actually, I used to use RedHat and Mandrake a lot, and they were both a pain in the arse to configure the way I liked.

    I was a bit harsh when I said that it was the GUI or nothing, but it is a hell of a lot quicker and easier to do it in Slackware when you are using a text editor.

    By the way, if it wasn't for the insult at the end, you probably wouldn't have been moderated down, and people would have actually read your post.
  • Only an American, i.e. someone blessed with being from the land of the free local phone call, would think that strange. In Europe, every download represents a cash investment. SuSE just saves on expensive phone calls.

  • Again, the included packages you mention are not free (i mean the free beer free here), but are for personal use, or shareware.....
    AND , if windows were allowed to include all of this, Microsoft would be more then happy to, and in that way, kill the competetion....
  • Ya know... I'd be *really* surprised if MS decided to distribute WP or PM with one of their operating systems. That would be something...

    I vaguely miss WP5.1/DOS. *That* was lightweight and fast, with all the shortcuts and the ability to configure macros. Pity it didn't ship with a PostScript driver. Ah well, now I've got XEmacs + TeX. Not exactly lightweight, but they'll do...
  • Yeah. Some people gotta feed on conspiracies.

    Mmmm. That sig of yours (familiar to be, but I have absolutely no clue to the original attribution), combined w/ a Lord Acton quote:

    1. "Knowledge is power."
    2. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

    3. Therefore, knowledge corrupts, and absolute knowledge corrupts absolutely. This sounds vaguely Lovecraftian/Cthulhuesque. :-) (and for those that have played Chaosium's CoC, substitute "Cthulhu Mythos" knowledge, and "drives insane" for "corrupts"...).

    A tad off-topic, but I'm in a silly mood...
  • As far as I know Red Hat also segregates the non-free software into a separate install tree. In fact they just "recalled" a package over a license change. They do have a separate CD with proprietary stuff on it, but that's just a service to the users.
  • Are you a complete idiot or do you have bits missing ? should Red Hat et al also write their own OS and applications ? Do you really want to see Linux dissapear back into the nether regions of cult interest ?

    Maybe you are not as stupid as you sound and you are really a Microsoft user on a troll. I hope so because I would hate to think that a Linux user could be so hell bent on the demise of Linux.

  • v (Score:1)

    by staff ( 72570 )
    v
  • SuSE 6.1 is a bit buggy. I tried it and you're right...basic things just don't work. wvdial, telnet and KDE all were awful. And the support consisted of no more than acknowledging that you had written in.

    Someone gave me a Debian CD which creates a working system before torturing you with dselect. But at least what it said it could do it did do.
  • YaST also continues to be the reason why the typical Debian or Redhat purist slams SuSE, since YaST is non-free software. But then, Europeans have never been particularly interested in freedom, right? It's interesting that the only people beating the drums for free software (free as in 'freedom') seem to be Americans :-(. But then, we have the Borg of Redmond to teach us what non-free software becomes when unchecked by licenses such as the GNU Public License.

    -E

  • Well, I remember Red Hat announcing that the expensive version of 6.0 would have ViaVoice. And it's not free for SuSE or Red Hat. You can't redistribute it and must pay to get the package.
  • Good god, calm down!! Yes, you can't always hand everything to newbies and expect them to learn anything. And I agree, if you're not willing to learn, then stay with an OS (WinBlows or MacOS) that doesn't require it. But not everyone is as <SARCASM>gifted</SARCASM> as you are. If all a new user gets is "RTFM!!" over and over again, they're not going to learn much, are they? Man pages are references, not tutorials.
    Our wretched species is so made that those who walk on the well-trodden path always throw stones at those who are showing a new road.
  • Fact: YAST is not free software. Clearly, SuSE lacks confidence in the role of free software as a part of its business plan if it cannot put YAST under a BSD, GPL, or other free software license. SuSE is certainly not as free as Redhat is. Those who care about free software should consider this important point.
  • Actually, I find text-based configs *far* easier than anything Redhat has tried to do. I mean, let's face it, anything that you have to configure in Redhat has to be done in the GUI or not at all. And yes, I *have* used Redhat (and Mandrake.) Don't get me wrong, there is a market for that, it's just that MS-Windows has it covered completely. Redhat means well, but ends up just f*cking things up even more in an attempt to make things better.
  • Although I despise the fact that the author of that comment was obviously trying to provoke the non-American people who read Slashdot, I have to point out that absolutely *tons* of countries hand out patents without even thinking about it. I don't have any hard evidence to prove that (hey, this is Slashdot,) but people have posted evidence in the past, and they'll post it in the future. Nobody can criticise the Americans for that (anlthough they can criticise the moron for posting that troll.)
  • nope. I'm still stuck with it. How exactly can routing be messed up? There is not much to it on my little network. Here is the printout:

    10.0.0.0 * 255.0.0.0 U 0 0 0 eth0
    loopback * 255.0.0.0 U 0 0 0 lo
    default portal.penguin.net 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0
  • Just because YAST isn't GPLed doesn't mean it's not free (beer).

    I download one disk (eide01) and dd it to a floppy, boot with it and it will connect to an ftp server and install SuSE from it.

    I'd call that indiscriminate copying, especially if I grab the entire tree down to mine and set it up as NFS, which is allowed.

    I think you've been misconstruing many of the bitter anti-SuSE posts around here.
  • Oh dear, you've been reading too much. If you actually had a look around, you'd find you can get SuSe from a number of sources - cheap CDs, multi-distro packages etc.

    The thing most of you seem to miss, is that downloading stuff in Europe costs big money, due to the call costs.

    It is very clear from the install what stuff is free and what isn't. Oh, I forgot, you've never installed it, you just thought you'd sound cool and repeat something you'd read somewhere.

    As for all you "if its not oper-soure/gpl/my favourite license" then why are any of you using Netscape. After all, its proprietary, closed source....
  • You *rarely* need to use the "mount command" in SuSE or other distributions. To me, it's sad that newbies are advised to use such primitive and archaic methods to access removable media.

    Uh-huh... and how else are you supposed to access cd-rom or floppy??? Please enlighten me.

    Of course, the other way of accessing removable media is to install an automounter.

    Uhhm, get a clue. I suspect you haven't even tried to use it. Automounter is not designed to work with removable media. After you're done with a CD you probably want to unmount it so you can take it out. Automounter does not do that.

  • Of course you're trolling....

    Remind me, what country grants ridiculous software patents again ???
  • So get RH 6.0 for $1.99 from cheapbytes, and download ViaVoice from IBM for free!

    Free for personal use is all I really care about. If I'm going to make money off a product, then I don't mind paying for the professional version or whatever, but while I'm playing at home or dreaming of riches, I like my software to be free!
  • I personally find that the SuSE listerver (english edition) more than makes up for dialup support. You can usually get answers to questions in a couple of hours that are more than sufficient to get you past the problem.

    I must qualify this post with the disclaimer that I am a happy 6.1 user (albeit modified system).
  • Firstly, sorry for posting this in this thread - it's apologising for a message I posted in a thread which I suspect most people long abandoned, so I guessed that not many people would see the apology, rather undermining it. This was the top thread when I posted, so seemed the most visible way of apologising. Flame if you will as I accept this is off-topic, but this seemed the decent thing to do under the circumstances.

    Anyway...

    A fwe days back now, I posted a message here [slashdot.org] which wasn't very complimentary to Network Solutions.

    I swear it didn't occurr to me that I could check the account status online... Anyway, some helpful individuals did, sent me the URL and pointed out that the invoice is listed as outstanding...

    My humble apologies to Network Solutions for sullying their good name - I still feel their help service could be improved, but the information now suggests that it wasn't a random error on their part that lost us the server, but an accounts failure from KOSH.

    Once again, sorry.

    Greg
  • You exagerate quite a bit. This to me seems to
    be the most stable version I've seen so far.
    As for the service. I sent a question and got
    an answer about 10 minutes later, lucky I guess
    but it put me in a good mood since the problem
    was fixed.

    The language isn't that bad.
  • I listen to Real Audio everyday. I listen to
    the French radio from Québec and Louisiana
    and it works. I've never had a problem.

    As for choosing version 5.0 versus G2, this
    is a bit moronic but I guess they must feel that
    it is more stable.

    Either one work if your sound card is setup right.

  • I have now seen the complaint about non-free software not being properly "segregated" several times. I do not feel this is a fair criticism of SuSE Linux. In fact, I believe SuSE is one of the better distributions in this respect.

    When choosing packages to install in SuSE (eithing during installation or later using YaST), the installer is very explicit about informing you if you choose a package that is non-free. Also, most of the commercial software is put into its own section (pay.)

    For example, when you choose a package for installation, in many cases a pop-up box will appear informing you of something. This includes:

    • Copyright Notices: For example, you get these if you choose blender, MuPAD, etc.
    • Demo versions: These are clearly indicated as such. Examples include executor (Mac emulator), ARCAD (a CAD system, and it even tells you that the limitation is that you can't save), etc.
    • Library licensing issues: xforms, qtdevel (yes I know this is no longer an issue with 2.0)

    These are just a few examples, but I have found that any software that is shareware, commercial or has a strange license will produce a warning.

    On another note, SuSE also warns you about software that is alpha quality or not stable. They did this with some version of gnome, for example (and also with some kde packages too, just so you know they're not biased. :)

  • no, the howtos and the book they got with linux are the tutorials. yeah, sometimes they need some help getting started, but the howtos are NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND!
  • Because even if only 5% of what's on the CD is useful that's 30 megabytes you don't need to download and the cost of an extra CD is less than the cost of downloading 40 Mbytes for many people.
  • Errrrr, I really, really doubt that SuSE forces users to install the additional packages. It's not like a sane system would impose dependencies upon vmware, say, for everyday work. 'sides, in the past you could get a single-CD GPL'd version of SuSE from Cheapbytes, etc, and there's little reason to think they've broken from that practice. Is one CD bloat, and tomsrbt the ultimate general-purpose distro that matches the bulk of everybody's needs? No.

    Suppose, say, you get an InfoMagic several-CD archive with multiple distros and TSX and Sunsite mirrors. Does that force you to install everything? No. It *allows* you to do so, but doesn't *make* you. By bundling w/ the distro, presumably they can use their package manager (an RPM branch, IIRC) and make it easier for you to *choose* to do so.

    Then what's the difference, and what are you complaining about?

  • Re:vmware included (Score:3)

    by mwillis ( 21215 ) on Saturday July 24, 1999 @06:23AM (#1786284) Homepage
    I think European connectivity is not as cheap/common as it is in North America. Remember SuSE is from Europe. There are lots of nasty telco monopolies charging for net connectivity by the minute. So downloading stuff may end up being really expensive in comparison to getting it all on one CD.
  • Come on people. Give me a break. SuSE hasn't even fixed all the nasty bugs from 6.1 and they are already moving to the next release???
    I am still desperately trying to figure out why the hell telnet is so slow on my SuSE 6.1 system, along with a whole bunch of other problems.
    On top of that, the manual is absolutely useless. It looks like they just ran it through babelfish to get English translation. They probably didn't even read it before they shipped it because there is a lot of stuff in it that's still in German!
    Finally, their tech support is non-existant. I tried to contact them for over a month before they finally replied, only to say that they've no idea what's wrong.
    I was using RedHat originally and the primary reason I switched to SuSE was because I heard SuSE was much better quality / less buggy. Needless to say, I'm disappointed. I certainly will not "upgrade". In fact this is the first and the last SuSE distribution I bought.
    On the other hand, Debian, which I use on my other box, has always worked right. So I might as well stick with it.

    I know I'm gonna get flamed / moderated down for that, but what can you do? People don't like criticism, esp. when they deserve it.
  • Who here as actually used ViaVoice or its larger supposedly even better competitor. they are really terrible.. here I will switch mine on: *click* These is mess peaking user a Boyce recognition systems. *click* thats enough of that. the boxes move off the shelves because the idea is great, but I bet 95% of them are just moving from the shop shelf to gather dust on the home shelf, next to the excercise machine that can slide under your bed, except I bet you didnt spend 5 hours with the excercise machine trying to "train" it to understand your muscles.

  • Re:Real Audio 5.0 (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    >generating a "File
    >compression not supported" error

    Did you set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the directory
    where you have rvplayer and the shared libraries?
    Here is the script I run from netscape to handle
    real audio:

    #!/bin/sh
    export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/dl/rvplayer5.0
    /dl/rvplayer5.0/rvplayer $*

  • Why not download? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Excuse me, but if people want to try this out and pay for it, can't they just download it themselves? It's not to big and all, and why do we put shareware(==buyware) on cd's you already paid more then enuff for?
    Is it me, or Debian the only distribution really understanding Linux spirit?

    Actually, you don't understand the Linux spirit. The spirit is that you can download everything, not that you must. I purchased 6.1, and will purchase 6.2, because of the convenience. It's

    • easer to do a fresh install on a new system
    • faster to grab the code
    • easier to get everything working together
    • convenient to have yast to help tie it all in
    • really nice not to have to determine what to download (i.e. I was able to try out four different X-Servers last week, in one day, without any downloading/compiling.)
    I realize those of us with time-pressuring jobs trying to use Linux in the mainstream have different need than you. SuSE is great for us. It may be irrelevant for you... except that I will be hiring for Linux skills inside the next two weeks, something that wouldn't have a chance of happening if Linux were not as easy as SuSE or RedHat to get/install.

    Regards

  • I've never installed debian, but from the comments, I guess it's installer must just put everything it ships with on yor system, and then make you use your monsterous pipe direct to their server to download nay optional components.

    You are 1/10th right: you've never installed Debian :-)

    And just for future reference, make sure you know what you're talking about before you actually say it.

  • Well, just for the record, SuSE's online database system does require that you install Apache (search proceeds via a CGI script, IIRC) and, again if I remember correctly, you need inetd running for a service which superficially seems unrelated. So it does happen.

  • Suse has a big plus over redhat here. By just selecting the packages you want you can create anything specific like a dedicated firewall or a mail server. Sure, Redhat lets you select by package, but it's a tedidious process. Suse's dependency tracking really rocks here. YaST may not be pretty, but is works like a champ. BTW, Suse is the only distribution that I have not had to manually hack config files, because SuSEConfig is so good at what it does. The fact that it does NOT run in X is a real plus for my dedicated machines.

    Oh yeah, I forgot about Sax. (The X configurator.) Suse is the only distrib so far that I have seen that has the intel 540 X server included in it AND will autoconfigure it (with sax.)

    I like to think as Redhat as a newbie installation, and SuSE as a swiss army knife.

    Offtopic: Whatever happened to the UMSDOS installation option? Is it dead? How about a UMSFAT32?

    System is halted
  • If I had a gun I would come into your house
    late at night put the gun in you asshole and pull the trigger until it goes *click*


    That quote seems familiar. Isn't it from The Jesus in The Big Labowski?

  • Your missing the point!

    You might not want to create graphics, build web pages or manipulate photos,
    but if you do it's not only available (GIMP) but free on Linux. The
    equivalent Windows tool (Photoshop) is not free.

    You might not want to create newsletters or serious documents , but if you do
    it's not only available (LyX/KLyX) but free on Linux. The equivalent Windows
    tool (PageMaker) is not free.

    Developers may be able to spend a few hundred bucks for tools (I spent $795 for
    Watcom C, before MS had a 32 bit compiler, plus $795 for Instant C, plus $495
    for MS C...). Then there's editors, profilers, debuggers...

    If you havn't noticed, people LOVE to customize their PC's. KDE and GNOMEs
    themes allow this, and they're also sitting on top of the power of X and CORBA.
    Windows GUI is just a graphical shell.

    Voice recognition may not be unique to Linux, but yet again the point is that
    it's available and free.

    You don't think your paying for the $80 Windows licence that comes with your
    PC? Try looking for a Windows based PC for $199 or $395... They exist with
    Linux preinstalled. Oh, and remember they guy who got a $100 (?) Windows rebate
    from Toshiba and started the whole Windows refund day?

    I have the Shockwave flash and RealPlayer G2 plugins for Netscape 4.61 for
    Linux, and they work flawlessly for me. There's also plugger that will turn any
    helper app. into a plug in (for .wav, .avi, .mpg, .mid etc). Sure there's
    currently more plugins for Windows browsers, but I can't think of anything I
    had under Windows that I miss...

    If you were aggravated by installing Linux, then try RedHat, SuSE (yast) or
    Caldera if you want a Windows-like graphical install. All very easy to use.

    I think you might be surprised at the breadth of sound card and video card
    support for Linux (incidently video card suport just got a whole lot easier
    with XFree 4.0). Plus there's always 4-front sound drivers, or SciTech display
    drivers. USB support is being added (some video cameras already supported).
    Hopefully Linux will never support WinModems! Why use a $400 CPU to do the work
    of a $10 DSP? Makes sense for Microsoft and Intel, of course, but not very
    consumer friendly...

    The real point of my post wasn't to dis Windows, but just to point how much
    great software is available - for free - for Linux, and how much Linux is
    benefitting from the competing distributions.


  • Ok, where are you getting this G2 for Linux???

    I've been checking constantly (and checked just then) and according to www.real.com there is no G2 for Linux.

    Am I the only one that cannot find it at all? This is getting fairly frustrating.
  • Now that this thread has gotten thouroughly off topic.......
    ...the book they got with linux...
    Really? Cheapbytes didn't give me a book with Red Hat or Slackware. And the howtos aren't that hard to understand, if you already know a bit. Did you know about the howtos when you first switched from Windows? Or were you born with a 500lb. UNIX manual in your hands? The howtos are not even a halfway decent substitute for a human being. What's wrong with giving a human explanation to a newbie, instead of waving man, info, howtos, etc. in their faces and screaming, "RTFM or FOAD!!!"? Not everybody coming into Linux is a computer geek - those days are over. Just because something was easy for me doesn't mean it will be easy for everyone else. There are people who, thanks to M$, can't funtion w/out a GUI. As Linux draws more users and moves into the desktop environment, more and more of these users will turn up. It will take more than a howto or some man pages to teach them to use Linux. But it can be done. It's people like the yahoo I was replying to who are perpetuating the myth of the "rabid Unix user", which I'm beginning to believe isn't really a myth.
    Our wretched species is so made that those who walk on the well-trodden path always throw stones at those who are showing a new road.
  • And even some of us here in Heaven would rather buy a frickin' CD than download 40 megabytes of stuff at home. Of course, my shadowy masters don't mind me slurping some stuff through the T1s, but there's no way in hell I'm saving all of SuSE onto seventy jillion Zip disks!

  • SuSE in General (Score:3)

    by Vskye ( 9079 ) on Saturday July 24, 1999 @07:21PM (#1786307)
    Peronally, I find it amusing about all of the gripes about this distrib. So, it comes with a ton of "optionally" installed software..., wow, you get to *choose* what you want to install. (?)

    I've ran SuSE since around 5.1, and although I don't go out of my way to buy *every* release, (went from 5.3 to 6.1 recently) it's still an option for those that don't like to upgrade via ftp or source. My current 6.1 is running the latest kernel, updated .src, etc. I also use Vmware, no problems..., no need for Real Audio though. I also use RH 6 at work, each of which have their good and bad points.

    My point? Just once I'd like to read about Linux (all distribs) in a positive note vs all the *BS* about what is better at what! Ala, if you don't want to install this or that, then DON'T! It's not that complicated. This crap reminds me of the OS/2 vs Windows debate, except we're bitching amongist ourselves. (right into MS's hands!!)


    Dana
  • Uh-huh... and how else are you supposed to access cd-rom or floppy??? Please enlighten me.

    man autofs

    Uhhm, get a clue. I suspect you haven't even tried to use it.

    Get a clue yourself. I use it all the time, and you are , in a nutshell, WRONG. In future, think before you flame.

  • There is a difference between bloatware and options..

    Although many distro's are now adding third party software as part of their distribution, this is not bloatware of Linux. This is Linux trying to service many different types of end users.

    • prgrammers
    • regular users
    • power users
    • servers
    • workstations
    • (choose your use)
    Such being the case, they include distribtuions that will allow the user to acomplish all of this with out having to go out and get more software. The base Linux OS is still relatively small, especially compared to Windows.

    So if Suse wants to give there users an option of trying Vmware, so be it, if this does not suit your need you simply do not install it.

    I do agree this is veering from the Free Software Movement that started this whole ball rolling, and if you are really concerned about having only Free Software on your computer then install Debian. (I know they have some un-free software in their tree but it is segregated in the non-free section.)

    I have not tried SUSE, but i am assuming it is similar to RH and Debian in that it will allow you to select what you wouldlike installed.

  • There needs to be a balance between fixing bugs forever and doing releases constantly. I personally have yet to see where SuSE has fallen down on that. If anything, it's a bit annoying that SuSE tends to lag other releases (2.2 kernel, glibc2, glibc2.1). Other stuff is apparently also a few releases behind (Gimp, for example). On the other hand, they've led the pack with XFree86 and ISDN (not that that's very useful to me or popular in the US, but I gather it's a big plus in Europe).

    However, as far as stability, I've found it excellent. And there's a lot to be said for having the kitchen sink on the CD. Downloading and building stuff for the sake of downloading and building gets really tedious.

    "Telnet is so slow..." -- what precisely is slow about it? Is it slow making the initial connection, slow at receiving output from the remote, or what? Is it inbound or outbound that's slow? Are you using a dialup or ethernet? What about your nameserver configuration?

    I disagree about the manual; I think it's one of the best ones around. Certainly it's obvious that it's translated from German, with the occasional mistakes, German words or phrases, European phone numbers, and so forth, but everything I've read has been crystal clear, and the manual itself is exceptionally well produced (in terms of quality of paper, binding, and printing). To take one example, the description of how to set up PPP is actually clear and comprehensive.

    All that aside (obviously I like SuSE), it's not for everyone. If you prefer Debian, that's what you should use. That's one of the big joys of Linux, choice! There's room for a lot of distributions, and it's nice to see Red Hat and SuSE going after each other (in the market) so aggressively.

    Although I do wish they'd work with Linus to get their kernel additions (mostly drivers) back into the mainline. I hate trying to maintain two vendor branches in my CVS repository, and merging my own hacks back into both...
  • One thing I hope they fix is their totally wacked-out RPM handling. In 6.1, the rpm's don't sort out into trees, if you install over an earlier version of a package, you'll have both packages listed in your database, instead of one overwriting the other(this was with kpackage). To top it off, they name packages like "kernel.rpm" instead of a more descriptive and handy "linux-kernel-2.2.7-i386.rpm"
  • Wow! Voice recognition and Simultaneous Linux/Windows (VMWare), plus an office suite!!

    Never mind GIMP, LyX/KLyX, choice of GNOME/KDE...

    And all for free!

    Now what does Windows come with:

    Voice recognition? No
    VMWare? No
    Photoshop? No
    Microsoft Office? No
    Wordperfect? No
    PageMaker? No
    Choice of desktops? No
    Development tools? No
    Full source code? No
    An $80 price tag? Yes

    So much for the "no apps for Linux" crap!

    It'll be interesting to see how RedHat responds to the SuSe, Mandrake, Caldera etc competition.

    One thing is for sure: all this competition is driving Linux forwards at warp speed, and kicking Window's sorry ass!!!

    I'd better get my RHAT shares! :)
  • Slakware an advanced distro? It's what I started with... Of course, I was primarily running DOS 5.0 at the time. I don't think that Win95 had reared it's ugly head yet...
  • How did you install the RPMs which were then listed with both old and new versions in the RPM database? It sounds like you used "rpm -i --force" instead of "rpm -U", or, if I understood this correctly, that's what kpackage did. Perhaps you told it to "install" instead of "upgrade" somewhere? (otherwise it's a bug in kpackage that should be fixed)

    To get the full names, use "rpm -qp" on a non-installed package or have a look at the "full-names" directory on the CD or on the ftp server.

  • Oh yeah, I forgot about Sax. (The X configurator.)

    I've never had any luck with Sax. I tried it with both SuSE 6.0/RIVA 128 and SuSE 6.1/RIVA TNT, and both times is hung the system when I tried to save the configuration and exit. I couldn't even kill the X server or soft boot; had to turn the power off. I ended up moving X86Config over from my OpenLinux installation.

    Anyone else had this problem?

    TedC

  • Ooooh, not fair, not fair, not fair.

    I'm currently using SuSE, but it's not because of YaST. If I could figure out how, I'd toss YaST out for a combination of linuxconf and plain old rpm or kpackage, along with clear labels on the CDs explaining, at least in general terms, what is on the disc.

    What I like about SuSE is the fact that it's five whole CDs of hot, buttered Linux lovin'. Can't gripe about that, but I hate using YaST because I don't quite know what grief I'll bring upon myself from bypassing it.

    --
  • Yeah but the SuSE online database is an option, it is not required. It is designed to be used as a documentation server on a LAN. Not the primary help system on a host.
  • If you don't have a lot on you network why are you using class "a" private addresses? Use class "c" instead. Why isn't the dummy device running? Routing can be fucked up in many ways. If this machine has a dialup connection you shouldn't have a default gateway set. If it provides internet connectivity for the rest of you lan you should set portal.penguin.net as the default gateway on the client machines. FWIW I use SuSE 6.0 at home and it kicks ass. I suspect 6.1's reported problems are kernel 2.2 related. I'm looking fwd to 6.2
  • No.

    Worked perfectly every time, and under different hardware conditions. And excellently since 3.3.3.1

    Are you using some dort of exotic Video card ? something that even the SVGA driver couldn't deal with ? ( but the VGA probably should have)

  • Lets say SuSE GPL's YAST.

    So what, is redhat gonna use it? Debian? Caldera?

    bfd on gpl'ing a distro's config tool. The value added of the config is the only thing that makes distro's truly worth paying for.

    if basing your linux buying decision is on the config tools, SuSE wins. if it's on truly free software, isn't Debian filling that need?

    I think the bulk of snivelers are trolls.
  • I got an ISO of an 'evaluation' S.u.S.E distribution from their FTP site. I assume it means it is a selection of software from their commercial product, fitting on one CD.. it seems to be good stuff, and most of the rest can just be downloaded and burned onto other CDs, I believe.
  • The only difference I can think of between doubleclicking on a .deb (or rpm for that matter?) and an InstallShield .exe is that you can uninstall it afterwards wich is all too often not the case with the InstallShield stuff.
  • There needs to be a balance between fixing bugs forever and doing releases constantly.

    Agreed. And my point is that SuSE shifted the balance to doing constant releases. You surely remember that SuSE 6.1 came out in May, don't you?

    However, as far as stability, I've found it excellent.

    I found it inadequate. There is something completely fucked up with their KDE / X servers. Once in a while it just locks up and I have to press ctrl-alt-backspace to "fix" it. The other day it locked up such that it didn't even respond to the keyboard. I had to telnet in from another machine and kill the X server. That certainly shows Linux's stability, but also reveals SuSE's screwed up set up. (oh yeah, I had neven had this problem before I installed SuSE)

    "Telnet is so slow..." -- what precisely is slow about it?

    I actually posted it on newsgroups several times. And my question even appeared in Ask Slashdot section. Here is the link [slashdot.org]

    I disagree about the manual; I think it's one of the best ones around.

    Bull shit. (to put it mildly). First of all, my own impression about the text of the book is that it has about the same quality as the output from babelfish. Secondly (and that's the important part), a friend of mine, complete Linux newbie, bought SuSE 6.1. It turns out the manual doesn't even explain the basic things. Last week he emailed me asking how to access the cd-rom. I took a closer look at the manual, and it turns out that it doesn't even do a good job at explaining mounting! He also pointed out that "First Steps with Linux" is at the very *end* of the manual. He says he read about 2/3 of the book and he still didn't have a clue about the most basic things!

  • Or 6+ CDs in the case of SuSE.
  • Who says we can't burn SuSE CDs? We used to copy shareware floppies back in the BBS days all the time. Copying/uploading shareware to the BBSs was encouraged by the shareware authors.

    Most of them would even let you charge a small fee for the media and the pain of doing a diskcopy. The GPL is a wonderful thing but there are other licenses that aren't too shabby either.

    I'm amazed that anyone would bitch about getting anything on a CD.... I have a T1 at the office and a modem at home. I don't want to download vmware or via voice from home if I can help it. Just my .02

  • > I found it inadequate. There is something completely fucked up with their KDE / X servers.

    Well, over here there is no such problem. Remember that XFree itself introduced some problems with certain gfx-cards in recent releases.
  • Are you sure you actually installed it ? I have both the French and the English versions of their manual and I have yet to find a serious translation mistake in either version. As for bugs, nothing that I installed (and I installed a lot) is broken. Telneting in my system is fast, wherever I telnet from.
    As for their tech support, Their replies have always been in the 1-3 day range, and always helpful.
    It's not like I own shares in Suse, but really looks like we have not tried the same distro.

  • Oh no! If I buy this CD, and it comes with software I don't want that I'd be able to download if I wanted, I'll be crushing the linux spirit!

    Gimme a break. If you don't want to use a package that comes with SuSE, then don't install it. There's this cool thing you run when installing most distributions where you pick out what goes on your system. I've never installed debian, but from the comments, I guess it's installer must just put everything it ships with on yor system, and then make you use your monsterous pipe direct to their server to download nay optional components. I kinda like to be able to just stick my CD in and install software instead of waiting for my modem.

    I'm also not sure what "security holes" in SuSE people are talking about. My system is as secure as I make it. If you don't know how to secure a system, then don't put stuff on there that needs securing, eh?

    SuSE's support has been fine in what little amount I've used it, but that's not much. I guess that I'm not the best person to ask about that, since I usually fix my own problems.

    Anyway, I like SuSE. I like slack, except for the out-of-date-ness. I'm gonna have to stick debian on a box pretty soon so I'll know something about it that's not based on a few bad example's rants. :) Everyone else: Use what you like, not what I like.

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