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Linux Software

Pro/Engineer for Linux Poll 80

Posted by Hemos from the vote-for-the-good-of-CAD-everywhere dept.
BTT writes "Parametric Technology is taking a poll on whether or not they should port Pro/E to Linux. Check out www.ptc.com and cast a vote. " For those of who aren't familar with Parametric, they make one of the premier CAD applications.
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Pro/Engineer for Linux Poll More

Pro/Engineer for Linux Poll

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  • Although there's legitimate concern for one getting an overblown picture of demand, as someone who doesn't use CAD software at all, I'd still like to see more support for specialized software being ported to Linux.

    Why? Because I've had the pleasure of using other expensive, specialized software like Interleaf (curiously enough, made by another Waltham, MA company) and would like to do so again.

    A Linux version would make that possible at the little company where I work.

    Nothing sucks more than being told that because your favorite application is too expensive, the company is going to stick you with some wholly inappropriate tool for creating decent technical documentation, like Word97. Never mind that the extra labor costs involved in using lame tools soon outweigh the extra shelf price for quality S/W; many managers don't figure that one out in time.

    What they may realize soon enough is that extensive Linux application choices let them save $$ on the OS and make efficient use of older hardware at the same time.

    Since engineering-types seem to make faster inroads than techwriters in the corporate software adoption fight, I for one would be grateful to ride in on CAD users' coattails. The next step is that when I get the tool of my preference, it makes it that much easier for the next person down the line to benefit from my good fortune.

    IMHO, the demand for applications is recursive: even if the early demand is a tad bogus, the appearance of strong demand should fuel further application development for Linux. In a worst-case scenario, by the time the suits realize the original demand might have been exaggerated, the market for Linux apps will have become quite real and quite apparent to just about everyone.

  • Don't vote unless you use the software normally (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 17, 1999 @04:20AM (#1888816)
    Subject says it all. There is no point in them getting a false picture of demand and ending up them getting burned for it. Of course I wouldn't expect any serious company to rely of a non-scientific poll to make a business decision.

  • Vote? If your and ME (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 17, 1999 @04:55AM (#1888817)
    Pro-engineer is VERY expensive and not the type of program you decide to just buy and play around with for fun (unless your a mechanical engineer, then you have my sympathies.) 8,000$-$15000 a seat is about right, depending on the modules you buy with it. But if your a mechanical engineering company its worth it.

    Strangely enough my mom used to work for them, they translate there software into many languages and the company is unix based (my mom doesn't like VI, and complains endlessly...)(also tells a good story about them buying a civic and taking it apart to model for "pro engine.. but I digress...)

    The software is already available on UNIX and was only fairly recently ported to NT (Due to competion from "Solid Works" so a linux version shouldn't be hard.

    I really doubt anyone on slashdot is really interested in buying this software, so I don't know how responsible it would be to vote. If they did the port and there was no demand, they might discontinue it and when Linux has more completely taken over the Workstation OS market, they'll probably think twice about going over.

    I wonder if you can parametrically model software?

  • I agree (Score:1)

    by Yarn ( 75 )
    If they get a false impression from being slashdotted then release their product, only to make *no* money, word will get around, and the moment a poll gets posted on /. it will be invalidated.

    Also, whats the betting that the moment they get it finished, and the news is posted here, huge numbers of OS fanatics will be saying "bah, its not opensource, we'll have something thats better within 3 weeks" even though they probably voted yes on the original poll.
  • I'm a sysadmin in a CAD shop that uses Pro/E on SGI boxes (though not heavily at *all*, we do most of our 3d solid modeling on RS/6000s in Catia.)

    We've recently gotten in a couple of NT boxes with which we plan to run a beta of Catia 5 for Win2K. I, along with the other sysadmin, have assured my boss that this will not work well at all. Pro/E on Linux, on the other hand, certainly sounds interesting. At least one unknown that could cause instability (the OS) would be out of the picture then. (I don't like NT, can you tell?)

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad

  • Downtime is a LOT more likely to cost a company large amounts of money than any expensive administrator. Some small firms can lose enough in a few hour outtage to more than cover the annual salary of a competent sysadmin or consulting contract.

    Sysadmin cost ~ TCO is an incomplete consideration of the situation.

    Time costs money.

  • Re:PTC (Score:1)

    by jd ( 1658 )
    The use UltraLinux for the Sparcs and don't give up anything! (*rolls eyes*)

  • The following discussion is for open source programs only.

    There is no way that a product comparable to Pro/Engineer, SDRC or even the lowly AutoCAD will be available for some time to come. Good 3D hardware support is extremely rare, if at all, and the software products I have mentioned are EXTREMELY COMPLEX. Far more complex than say PhotoShop and Gimp. There are halfway viable 2D CAD options, but they tend to have very different (even confusing) UIs as they look, feel and operate quite differently than I would expect. And don't get me started on the horrid DXF support (of which I made an open source library for, to be released soon), which don't support 3D in any manner.
  • Of course they should port it. Ideally, all software would be available on all platforms.

    But still, don't vote unless you plan to buy it. They're obviously looking for demand here; don't make them regret their decision later on, or it's likely we'll never hear from them again even if there is huge demand.
  • We have a number of people that need to access Pro/E to a varying degree. A couple of network licenses would solve that just fine.
    Imagine a Pro/E "Server" on an alpha and a nubmer of Pro/E GLX clients (preferably Intel). This could become a reality in the near future.
  • They have ProE at a few workstations at my school. (unfortunately, they recently got rid of 4 SGI's because it turned out that I was the only person who had been using them for the past 2 years, all that's left for undergrads are NT boxen) I never looked at it seriously though, since POVray had always been sufficient for the small design projects I had. I'll definitely have to give it a shot now!

    $8000 is a lot of pennies, though...

  • It's really a pretty low-end product. Just try dealing with GM with AutoCad parts? Do you think that the space station is being designed in AutoCad?
  • Well, I work for a division of PTC called Windchill (out of Minnesota, how appropriate). I've seen discussion about Pro/E on Linux tossed about for some time now - Not to mention the fact that every other person at Windchill runs Linux on at least one of their workstations (I unfortunately only have an NT box and an RS/6000 - and yes, I did try to run PPCLinux on it to no avail). The use of Linux within Windchill alone could be emough to warrant PTC support for it in several of their products, including Windchill's product (aptly named...Windchill).
  • Most of the CAD world runs on AutoCad, despite encroachment by some third parties

    I wouldn't say most of the CAD world runs AutoCAD. AutoCAD is very popular, especially with smaller companies. Pro Engineer is also very popular and has more capabilities.

    Boeing uses Catia, and I hear that automotive companies use Catia also.
  • What if it is not PTC's fault, something broke in the kernel? Are they required to fix the bug themselves or tell the customers, "I can't fix the problem, it has nothing to do with our software".

    Umm... Linux is open-sourced. They CAN fix it themselves, then distribute a kernel patch. If it's good, it'll get absorbed into the regular kernel tree. Haven't you been paying attention?

    What happens when they slam headlong into a bug in NT or one of the commercial UNIXes? They wait for the vendor to fix it, and tell their customers to sit tight. So even if they waited for the kernel developers to fix it, it's no worse than what they're doing now.

  • I saw this last week, and I'm glad I voted before the rush of 10,000 votes comes in, all referred from slashdot.org. I, like many others, judging from the comments already posted about this, question the value of posting news stories on slashdot about polls. All it does is send clueless people to skew the results and makes the Linux community look like a bunch of lemmings.

    Please stop posting these things on slashdot. Admittedly, these sorts of polls aren't scientific at all, but these companies do use them to judge the opinions of their target market. It's safe to say that if you didn't happen across this poll by browsing PTC's site yourself, you're not in the target market, so you shouldn't vote.

    Keep in mind, also, that by posting these things on this site, it's really easy for a site to look at the server logs and simply reject all votes that came from a /. referral, so there's very little point to it, anyway.

  • That is true... Its kind of a catch-22. Without application support, the hardware vendors like Elsa, Diamond and MaxVision have no incentive to create drivers for Linux. And it almost goes the other way too... Fortunately, enough people have sent in enhancement requests to PTC so that they might listen.
  • The value of a good Unix administrator is immense! A good Unix administrator can handle 3-5 times more machines than a single Windows admin. In fact, there is nothing to be good at when it comes to windows... An admin that has been working with the system 2 months is no worse than an admin that has been messing with it for 2 years... You get to a wall and stop.
  • PTC has no intention on creating another distriboution... Corel is only doing it in order to 1) kill microsoft 2) make some cash on the phenomenon.

    PTC walks hand in hand with microsoft... they pull the same exact types of tricks on thier competitors. They love microsoft and love having thier name near MS's.
    Oh, and a decent seat of Pro/E costs $24 grand. The cheapest is $6000 right now.

  • Pro/E for Linux (Score:3)

    by Gary Franczyk ( 7387 ) on Monday May 17, 1999 @04:12AM (#1888835)
    I have been asking for this for a long time. For the longest time, PTC only supported NT on Intel hardware... that meant if you wanted to take advantage of the fast hardware that is available for x86 boxes, you HAD to go with NT. Very sad.

    The only issue right now is having drivers for high-end 3d cards available for Linux. Even having 3d support for a RIVA TNT card would be great. Pro/E requires HEAVY DUTY graphics support. Hopefully this is not too far behind.

  • I agree! (Score:3)

    by skroz ( 7870 ) on Monday May 17, 1999 @04:32AM (#1888836) Homepage
    I saw this poll last week, and almost submitted it as a slashdot story, but decided (quite strongly,) against it. Tomorrow, we'll see ten thousand registrants for the poll, all supporting linux, by people who don't even have a clue as to what Pro/E is.

    My personal opinion is that Linux isn't ready for Pro yet. Linux doesn't support the necessary 3d hardware yet, so a version of Pro (or any other serious CAD package,) for linux would be quite limited.

    Maybe in a few years...

    sKroz

  • You make it sound like a WinNT network maintains itself, or that good WinNT admins somehow cost less than Unix admins. That's nonesense. At least in my experience, it is just as difficult to configure and run a WinNT network as a Unix network, and admins for WinNT aren't any easier or cheaper to hire.

    -Ed

    Now that common Unix sysadmin tools are appearing for Linux, it's becoming pretty much equivalent to commercial Unix at the workstation level--at a much lower cost.

    A Linux port would be a good alternative for a company which is currently running Unix but needs to reduce its costs. A lot less retraining is involved--both for admins and staff--and Linux will integrate much more smoothly into the existing network than WinNT.

  • I have to totally agree. My company has gone from UNIX workstations to NT, so that engineers do not have two workstations (NT for e-mail and MS-Word; UNIX for I-DEAS, another CAD package).

    And I do know of one designer here that appreciates the distributed computing feature of UNIX workstations. It's saved his butt a few times. But that doesn't seem to sink in.

    This is also a sticking point with some other analysis software that is available only on Linux, and HP computers. The HP computers are so damned expensive, we only have one which crawls due to multiple users. But to use Linux, we would have to have another machine for numerous engineers which would end up costing as much (with better performance I would imagine). And then there is the "support another OS" complaint. So far, the decision is to wait for an NT port which has been promised for the last two years. Yeesh.

    ~afniv
    "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
  • I would be carefule saying most of the world runs on AutoCAD. Check there are many othe CAD packages available. The ones I hear most about are I-DEAS Master Series [sdrc.com] and Pro/E. I work in the aerospace industry, so perhaps they are not as popular in other industries. Although I understand Ford, Mazda, and even IOMEGA use I-DEAS.

    ~afniv
    "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"

  • PTC (Score:2)

    by BJH ( 11355 )

    I was once offered a job as system administrator at PTC in Japan... turned them down, but considering where I am now, I should have taken them up on it...

    Anyway, their apps run to several thousand dollars a license, so any place that's running them is going to have plenty of money to throw around, which makes me wonder a bit about the demand for Pro/E on Linux.

  • I also work for a competetor to PTC. We have a growing number of NT based sites. Those that bought our product on Unix are seeing less and less value. I gave Vmware a spin a while back and found it comfortable. I was able to do everything that I needed. I could run CAD via rlogin, E-mail & schedule & word & misc network tasks via Vmware, and administer any machine on our network, even the NT ones using VNC. Pretty powerful conbination. Now that SAMBA is getting some attention also, true interoperability solutions are a reality. This is the way of the future for me. Those that are aware of what network (true not M$ terminal server) computing can be like should have a choice.
    You guys could just provide a preconfigured Vmware file provided the user has an NT license, and they would be good to go. Maybe this could be a user group, or reseller thing if the lawyers have a problem with the license.... Maybe you are SDRC, maybe not... Need a beta tester?

    Cheers,
  • Ok I have to say a few things about this. It't long so if you don't feel for MCAD, then blow past this one....


    There are a few big unix based MCAD packages right now doing everything that they can to get their software to be windows NT friendly. I find it interesting that these companies will give up the strengths that the UNIX development brought them in exchange for compatability, and the "chance" to sell the same software cheaper.

    In the last few years the CAD market has matured such that high priced UNIX workstations are no longer seen as a value. Linux could very well change this. (I for one really hope this happens!) Nobody minds buying a PC, but a Sun or SGI machine is a tough sell these days. Basically there has to be no other alternative, otherwise the sale will goto an NT machine.

    There are a number of smaller, newer competetors in the MCAD arena, and they are entirly based on NT, and they are using "Sell lots of cheap software and make money later" business model. They are totally embracing the Microsoft development, marketing, and implementation model. The older established MCAD vendors need something new as a differentator; otherwise, they will just continue to lose market share until they own niche markets. Linux based systems could change this, but there are some things that need to be addressed before software ports are truly attractive to these companies, and their users.

    1. Good solid 3d Open-GL. This is a requirement. Solid modelers consume graphic resources when they are not computing model geometry. A users performance is directly related to the 3D capabilities of the workstation in question.

    2. Office compatiblity. Many engineers now have to schedule, e-mail, and perform basic office tasks using M$ software. This is one of the primary reasons UNIX machines are being displaced. Most, if not all of the companies do not like two machines on one engineers desk. Many engineers do not really want to know anything about the software they use. It gets in the way. Not that they are not capable users, they just want to be users only. When M$ wins on the office desktop, UNIX in the R&D department is on borrowed time.

    3. Standard Linux distros. The biggest selling points, in this market (true or not :-P ) going for NT are:
    - Ability to standardize on inexpensive hardware.
    - Ease of Administration. I know that they do not yet realize what this one will cost them in the long run, but for now this is key.
    - Compatability. (also mentioned above.)

    4. Good user tools. What does the average user do? Get good OpenSource tools that work together across Distros that accomplish common user tasks. Easy stuff should be easy. (Printing, Plotting, moving files, finding files that sort of thing.) M$ currently makes easy stuff easy for the average Joe user. Problem is Hard things are Impossible.

    These MCAD comapnies that come from UNIX roots have a fair number of reasons to port also.

    1. Marketing. If any one of them actually does it, then they will get a lot of attention in a market that generally is hard to get to listen.

    2. Absolute control of the User Interface. The Windows GUI was meant for the average computer user. All the Solid Modelers I know really know their package. A few clicks here and there matter. If a package must conform to the windows "Look and Feel" then their ability to compete on this basis is sharply limited.

    3. Leverage of existing tools and technology. X windows is great. Someday customers better realize that they could purchase a few very capable servers, and let their power users use them, from any machine in the building. NT does not allow for Network computing, and this market needs it.

    4. Ability to push compute envelope beyond current Intel Technology. Right now if you top out your new shiny NT workstation with a large assembly, you are stuck. If you were using X you could just rlogin into a more powerful machine for that task, or maybe you could go with an Alpha machine, or maybe PowerPC. Either way, top performance would be available to those that are willing to pay for it. NT currently is a dead end here right now. BTW Cad performs poorly on Multi Processor machines due to its serial nature.

    5. The other NT based competetors will have to do one hell of a re-write in order to compete, or compete on other strengths. Their reliance on pure Microsoft tools will insure this. Using Linux correctly will raise the bar in many areas that are currently taken for granted by much of this market.


    --Happily running MCAD and Design Apps on an SGI.

  • The comment was:
    For the longest time, PTC only supported NT on Intel hardware

    Do not confuse PTC (Parametric Technologies) [ptc.com] with one of it's product lines, Pro/E [ptc.com].

    Pro/E is NT based right now, but PTC owns more than one CAD/CAM company. Not too many know this.

    Last year, ICEM Technologies [icem.com], makers of ICEM DDN [ptc.com], a high end UNIX only (now we support NT too) CAD/CAM suite was bought from Control Data Corperation [cdc.com] by Parametric Technologies [ptc.com]. This was not primary for ICEM DDN, the CAD suite, but for it's high end surfacing application, ICEM Surf [ptc.com] which has long been coveted by PTC because of its desire to integrate with Pro/E.

    ICEM DDN, which is quite popular in Germany and in other European Engineering Firms as well as high end European Car Companies (Ferrari, for instance), is wholey owned by PTC.

    So when you say that PTC is UNIX only or has been UNIX [sgi.com] only, you're incorrect. I work for ICEM and subsequently PTC which might I add, treats its developers/programmers quite well (free pop machine, free snacks, and free beer on fridays for those of age).


    -Zebulun

  • Office compatiblity. Many engineers now have to schedule, e-mail, and perform basic office tasks using M$ software. This is one of the primary reasons UNIX machines are being displaced. Most, if not all of the companies do not like two machines on one engineers desk.
    I work for a competitior to PTC and this objection has been raised several times. I am suggesting we make a deal with VMWare to distribute their product as a support package to provide NT compatibility. This means that the Linux version will have to have a measureable advantage over the NT version (you still have to buy an NT license) but for many of our UNIX customers who are wary of NT's unreliability it is a viable alternative.
  • Just imagine being in a business where your saleability depends on the version of an app you're running. No, we're not talking about MS Word or MS anything: It's AUTOCAD & 3DSTUDIO MAX.

    Most of the CAD world runs on AutoCad, despite encroachment by some third parties. While it is possible to use a 3D part product and convert to ACAD format, no vendor will work with you. Pure Acad, or HIT THE ROAD, JACK. Not surprising, considering even AutoDesk doesn't have a firm handle on their version control. For Indy Contractors, this means you use the AutoDesk product, or you don't eat.

    AutoCAD desperately needs to be ported to Linux, as it would remove the hoary need to get shafted twice: Once by AutoCAD and again by MS.

    Also, 3DS MAX offers network rendering capacity, but again, runs only on MS OSs. Imagine the speed, capacity, and cost per frame a render farm could manage if you could load a render client on a low cost Open Source OS! AutoDesk would have more business than they could keep up with, as every dog and his master decided to go into the business because the barrier to entry had been considerably lowered.

    Opinions? Does anyone other than me see this as a GOOD THING (tm)?
  • I totally disagree. I've supported NT, Unix, hybrid, you name it... I've found that while it is much easier to get an NT network up and running, it is just as difficult to do the job *right*. Because NT has a point and click interface, and an "insert CD and press return" interface makes it very simple to implement a bad solution. With Unix, you use the tools available, there is no *easy* version of how to do things. Half the work of fixing an NT network is cleaning up after people that ONLY have 2 years of experience.

    --paul
  • I still cannot see, where on their web do they talk about Pro/E on Linux on their web page. Did they manage to remove it already, when they
    noticed that they have been slashdoted?
  • I voted. However, I prefer SDRC's I-DEAS.

    Pro-E is better for administrator's but I-DEAS is easier for users.

    However, Pro-E is *the* standard in MCAD.
  • I second the don't vote unless you use, however what reason could anyone have to vote no?

    The only thing I can come up with is that it might "dilute" support for the other versions, but they already seem to have Unix [ptc.com] support, so it's almost a non-issue...
  • I can't seem to locate the poll anywhere on the site. It looks like the survey is over. I guess I was too late.
  • I had quite an ongoing talk with some of the major exec's at Autodesk last year about this very issue. AD is pretty ignorant about LINUX (in management circles) and looks at UNIX as a dying OS and doesn't want to spend any more development $$ in it. The sad fact is that AD is getting big and fat and slow so don't expect any major innovation to come out of them! I personally love their suite of software but I hate their management (actually I hate ALL management). As I stated in my last talk with them, "Someone is going to port to LINUX. I just wish it was you." I hate to say it but you might as well forget about AD and their software products. There are already some excellent platforms for CAD and 3D animantion in LINUX. VariCAD has been working in the business longer than AD and Blender is a free 3D animation/modeller package that, in some ways, puts 3DS MAX to shame!
  • I saw the article - I have next to no CAD experience, but I went to the site and voted anyway - 93% odd in favour. Now I wonder how many of that 93% were pointed in the direction of this site from the Slashdot site?
    I worry about this, are we not influencing the poll of what should be a sample of CAD enthusiasts? And surely if we do this too much then it will become apparent that web polls cannot be taken without a pinch of salt.

    I expect most of you will say, what the hell, let's just promote Linux in this way, "After all Microsoft have used underhand tactics left, right and center and look where it's got them.", but then I can respond that Bill may be very rich, and it's only because of this fact that he can pay all those lawyers to keep the DoJ off his back.

    Linux is hell of an OS, can't we just let it speak for itself?
  • .... I wouldn't be surprised if they already have a working version, somewhere in their Labs.
  • Well, I agree with some of your principle idea -- linux could be a great choice for systems that heavily emphasize one app (say, CAD or a database), because the vendor could heavily customize it for support. However, that would be a huge deviation from the vendor's core competency in, say, CAD software. A better possibility might be to work closely with a Linux distributor and have them offer it as a special version. That, however, risks locking out other distros. A tough situation all around. Hopefully DEC and SGI will be able to contribute some of the necessary muscle to XFree86 as they begin to really embrace linux on their platforms.
  • You said: "For the longest time, PTC only supported NT on Intel hardware... that meant if you wanted to take advantage of the fast hardware that is available for x86 boxes, you HAD to go with NT. Very sad."

    This is just not true, my company was running pro eng on two RiscStation NEC for three years (MIPS based), we moved to Intel because Micros~1 decided to dump NT MIPS and never really supported it in the first place.

    -ShieldWolf

    P.S.Pro Eng was also a Unix based app befoire that.
  • With the total domination of M$ on the desktop,CAD software is fleeing its traditional *NIX platforms for NT!

    AutoCAD used to be available (up to about version 13) for *NIX. No mas.

    Bently MicroStation used to be ported to about 5 *NIXs. Bently has totally abandoned the *NIX platform and is now *only* developing for NT. They're adamant about it "just not being worth" the "massive effort" to port to Linux. I've been back and forth with their marketeers about this, and haven't been able to explain to the idiots what a make file is. Maybe they've fired ALL their *NIX guys.....

    I suspect Bully Boy must be involved in this at some level. Inquires to developers about porting their stuff to Linux are met by the same spew of FUD every time about how Winbloze is the only platform they'll support because they'd have to multiply their entire development effort by n to support every environment out there if they triedto cover more than Winbloze and that would break them. This is seen as a company-breaking expense!

    So I've pretty much given up hope of seeing manymore ports to Linux. Everything *I've* been interested in seems to be going the other way.

    And yes, NT on the desktop is *definately* a threat to *NIX in the R&D world.
  • Yes lets look at the cost of ownership
    ignore the $500 or $450 . The real cost
    of ownership is down time, time I spend
    looking at the BSOD which cost money
    now on average NT goes down at least
    once every other day, Generally I lose
    the last 20 minutes work so say a round
    40 minutes at $75 per hour 220 working days
    per year thats $5500 per workstation per year
    now a good UNIX sysadmin may cost you $50K more
    than your NT admin types but if you have more
    then 10 Boxes then It pays to go Linux
  • They only look at the workstations, not the infrastructure they require. ``The TCO model does not include any server or dedicated network costs.''

    They assume most unix workstation users will also have a NT pc for email, browsing, and office apps. Then added 40% of the cost of a pc to every unix system (hardware, maintenance and support). My work gave me a NT pc and a sun. I put linux on the pc, use it remotely from the sun, and run cool eyecandy screensavers on it's display.

    They only looked at commercial Unix hardware: Sun, HP, and SGI. They did not look at any intel based unices. They did not look at Linux, nor any BSD variant.

    They based the unix hardware costs on list prices, not the usual corperate discounts.

    They claim unix users spend 4.6 hours per week on workstation self-support. I don't give users root access, even on their desktops. There's nothing the users can do to ``support'' the station.

    They mention the third party applications needed to manage NT networks, but don't consider the costs.

  • Lower cost of ownership (Score:3)

    by Duckman ( 27276 ) on Monday May 17, 1999 @04:42AM (#1888859) Homepage
    Hey,

    As a former employee to one of PTC's largest customers I can seem the immediate benefit of porting ProE to Linux. It will cost a lot less!!!

    Instead of buying $20,000 HP or Sun machines you can by a $5,000-10,000 Intel machine. Then instead of paying MS $500 a seat for Windows NT you pay $0 for Linux licenses.

    So lets say you have 4,000 MCAD engineers. Your regular cost would be (20K * 4K) + (.5K * 4K) = 82K and with the Linux solution it would be (10K * 4K) + (0 * 4K) = 40K. What business in their right mind wouldn't want to knock their costs in half.

  • He is (Bill G. that is).

    About a year and a half ago, M$ made a major investment in PTC to make Pro/Engineer run BEST on NT. The same was done with other MCAD companies, to persuade them to only develop for M$. As has been noted earlier, there is a lot of money in licensing this type of software, and M$ wants a cut through development fees.

    I lamented the loss of AutoCAD from the Mac world, when it was on R12. The architectural CAD world revolved around the Mac platform. Microsoft persuaded AutoDesk to pull the Mac version (and later the poorly outfited Unix version) and only develop for Windoze. After using Autocad R13 & 14, I no longer feel the pain of this loss! It sucks!

    Pro/Engineer on the other hand, was designed, and still works best on Unix. When Microsoft dumped a lot of money on PTC, Pro/E on NT was an abomination, a mere charicture of Pro/E on a real platform like HP-UX, Solaris, or Irix.

    Many other CAD companies had started to move to solid rendering kernels that were designed to only run on Windows NT or 9x. This reduced their development cost, as they didn't have to develop the solid modeling code themselves, and could concentrate on user interface and other value added features. With the reduced cost of development, license costs dropped and a full scale CAD on NT pricewar erupted.

    Many PHB's bought into this new commodity market for MCAD, and decided not to re-up on expensive seats like Pro/E. My former employer decided to not eschew Pro/E, as we had accumulated several years of modeled parts (legacy data), and instead force Pro/E on NT as the standard. The plain truth is that Pro/E *STILL* sucks on NT! But marketing hype makes it sell easily as a more inexpensive equivalent to Pro/E on Unix.

    Now, I'm holding on to my outdated SGI box until they pry it from my cold dead fingers, at least until I can make a case for running Pro/E and *nix on a cheap comodity PC.

    -- Len
  • Actualy, Pro/E was ported to NT when NT was in beta. PTC anounced the availability of Pro/E on NT for Intel, MIPS, and Alpha the same day that NT was anounced. I remember going in to work at 4:30 AM the day before this anouncement to do some last minute testing of some bug fixes!

    Recently, the UI has been "modernized" with dialog boxes, etc.. The concept was to take the best of windows UI features and combine them with the menu driven aproach that made Pro/E very eficient and easy to use.

    Pro/E has reached about its fullest level of maturity at this point and porting to another platform would be realatively easy. The question is whether or not there is enough demand to justify the cost of supporting it (testing is expensive).
  • Most of the TCO polls I've seen lately deal with fleets of x86 desktops/laptops that are running various versions of Windows. I haven't seen any study comparing the TCO of Sparcs and NTW boxen, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I would assume the TCO of any UNIX- or Linux-based desktop would be higher than a Windows one. With a UNIX workstation, there is higher initial cost, higher support cost, but lower HW upgrade cost. With Linux, there is low initial cost, but higher support cost, and probably average HW upgrade cost (got to have more Mhz and memory!!). Hardware/Software cost can sometimes be lower than 10% of the total TCO over 3-5 years depending on the support/upgrade regimen of the profiled users.
  • The money lost as a result of one engineer being unable to work on a drawing for a few hours shouldn't make a huge dent in TCO. Are you regurgitating generic statements which are made about how costly downtime of mission-critical servers can be?
  • I agree that the /. effect will probably seem like ballot box stuffing, however, I think the average, intelligent joe probably still doesn't have a clear picture of Linux. I think it's a good idea to encourage software engineering companies to include Linux in their development track. Linux needs more products. A "killer app" needs to be found in every arena possible.

    While the Linux community discusses killer apps the kernel and driver hackers can still work on improving Linux.

    Perhaps convincing companies to port their products to Linux will get the attention of even more capable people.

    It's answer to the unrelenting chokehold that 1 company has on how we interface with our computers
  • They probably wouldn't have a poll unless there
    was atleast some demand for it already. And, it would be quite simple since there are unix ports
    of it. All that's left is hardware support.

    Also, if you consider what you said, that these licenses cost so much money, I'm sure companies
    would love to save where they can. When you get
    a job at one of these places that use PRO/E,
    you'll see that they try to save money where
    they can. I'm sure if they could save atleast $300/machine just by cancelling NT, they would.
  • PTC works closely with 3D hardware vendors for support.
    Hopefully, if PTC ports to linux (which would probably mean typing "make"), then they would
    be in a position to persuade Elsa to do the same.
    PTC is huge. They would be key to have on our side. ;)
  • 1. It's something they are going to do eventually anyway.

    2. It's not something that's going to cost them
    a lot of money to do. From what I've seen, it
    looks as if it was built with portability in mind.
    And, there are already unix versions so more than
    likely it's a matter of tweaking and typing make.

    3. I've talked with PTC consultants and they are
    fully aware of Linux and say that everyone asks
    them about Linux ports. I think this poll is to
    try to get more people out of the woodwork.

    4. It will benefit them and Linux as a whole. They
    will sell more because going with them and Linux
    is so much more cost effective. And, Linux will
    benefit by seeing more hardware accel vendor support.

    Personally, I think they are going to port regardless of what the poll says simply because the consultants get asked all the time about Linux ports. And it's also a "first to market" thing.

  • It would be plenty responsible for me to vote; I administer a CAD lab at a university. Most of the students in here are mechanical engineering undergraduates. There is a ProE class in here twice a week. And most of the machines in the room are PCs that dual boot Linux and NT.

  • Anyway, their apps run to several thousand dollars a license, so any place that's running them is going to have plenty of money to throw around, which makes me wonder a bit about the demand for Pro/E on Linux.

    I wouldn't be so quick to say that. I work at a fairly large gov't installation. Odd as it may sound, money is very tight when it comes to IT budgets.

    My shop is all Unix (Solaris, HP/UX). However, concidering the cost per workstation, the PHB's have brought up the idea of turning to WinNT. The hardware price lures them. Thankfully, the user base isn't so keen. So in my case, I believe my shop is safe (for now). But it's not the first time I've seen this brought up. And, in other shops within the site, they do use WinNT instead.

    Now... I'm a big Linux fan. But I'm not sure I'm ready to give up my Sparcs for Pentiums. But if it avoids WinNT, then by all means. Bring on the port!

  • I'm a student, I study engineering... why shouldn't I vote? We're obliged to use systems that are often under any reasonable efficiency level! This could be the occasion for having a really good combination between software and OS. That's why I voted "yes".
    Moreover let's consider this simple thing: Linux is a free OS, paying for it is always less expensive compared to other OS. The costs of starting up a design activity would be reduced of 20% (i don't wanna exaggerate...)... anyone would do that simple step: buying a Linux licence (almost free) and buying an expensive CAD/CAM system... it certainly is less expensive than buying a workstation "all in one" (OS + CAD).
  • >Instead of buying $20,000 HP or Sun machines you >can by a $5,000-10,000 Intel machine. Then >instead of paying MS 500 a seat for Windows NT
    >you pay $0 for Linux licenses.

    Alot of the Alpha NT user base would go for this.
    A better OS that takes more advantage of the Alpha
    chip than NT does AND it can run their software faster. There's more than just Intel out there ya know ;)
  • Please realize that AutoCAD was available for UNIX boxes. However, if you look at Autodesk's website, AutoCAD Release 14 and later are no longer available for UNIX. There is evidence that businesses are trying to get away from doing CAD work on UNIX and trying to move to NT. I don't agree with it, but when I had to part with my SGI box at work for an NT box I was less than enthusiastic, but that is management.
  • I agree that Linux gives you more uptime. I also agree that Linux/UNIX sysadmins are the same price as NT sysadmins (of equivalent quality).

    However, on vanilla NT 4.0 w/- sp3 or 4, you shouldn't be getting BSOD weekly - let alone every other day. I'm the first to complain about NT's inumerable faults - but that's just silly! You're just not doing it right!

    I install and maintain NT (when I have to) and Linux (when I can find an excuse) boxes and my uptime stats generally run to an hour or two downtime per month for NT, and about 10 or 20 minutes per year for linux. At my charge rate (which is the same for either type of work) that makes linux cheaper. (Installation takes about the same time.)

    ADK
  • This is what the linux community needs, a very solid CAD software that runs in a very solid OS. Now i won't have to run NT/AutoCAD anymore neither buying VMware, now NT'll dissapear around here forever.
  • While I have only used PTC's technical support once, I thought it was pretty good. Especially considering that I am a student and have given the company no money at all.

    "I gambled I would lose...I guess I win" Joe Henry

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