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Debian

Debian 2.1 'Slink' Release Postponed 111

Posted by Hemos from the no-big-problem dept.
Anonymous Coward writes "Slink's release has been delayed one week due to a problem with dpkg. Dpkg can fail when the locale is set to a non-default setting. Here's the news release. " Those nice guys over at Debian are actually right next to us in Boothland. Anyway, they're saying that they just want to be sure about upgrading, and working with folks with laptops. Alright, all of you who keep e-mailing me-I know this was annouced before. But I figured we'd do something for the Debian guys, and assure everyone it's not a big deal, and the reasons.
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Debian 2.1 'Slink' Release Postponed More

Debian 2.1 'Slink' Release Postponed

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  • ...when my RedHat install works?
  • It's actually nice to see an OS *not* being rushed
    to "market" full of bugs...
  • I hate it being delaed...but thats good that the Debian people will delay a project over a small bug. Unlike M$ they will release it when its done. M$ will release anything just to get $ no matter how FU#*ed up it is! Good job DEBIAN group!
    Natas
  • I've been having various problems mostly due to required libraries for rpm installs, programs that won't work worth a darn, rpms that don't find libraries that I in fact do have, in both RedHat and SuSE. I end up having to --force every rpm to install, and then things get really messed up. I can't back out of an install because it breaks the compatibility of many other programs linked to it and in the end everything becomes a huge, blurred, irrevicably damaged mess of links and duplicate files and so on and the RPM database is rendered useless.

    Is Debian's packager better in these respect?
  • that's what I thought.
    got too pissed at rpm & redhat's wierd way of installing things.
    (where's xdm?)
    i know they have thier reasons, but it's just a matter of taste, really.
  • Yes. Debian's package manager doesn't generally require you to force installs (I don't even remember the command to do it, and I've been using Debian for a year now!)

    Daniel
  • Hey, maybe you should read the rest of the comments. Or else the actual comments from the Debain guys don't matter..
  • [...]
    Is Debian's packager better in these respect?

    I hope so, because that's the primary reason I'm trying it out. The fact that it's easy to separate free from non-free software also appeals.

    I'm also encouraged to see this release put back: remember Red Hat 5.1? I certainly remember the bloody thing.


    --
    W.A.S.T.E.
  • Just because a beta version of Debian has a broken install that is being fixed before release, you judge Debian. Right. You know, if you use Solaris or something else propriatary, you won't have to hear about beta versions, or be threatened by the concept that they might be out there.
  • Posted by F.A.N.G.:

    dpkg is to rpm as a rolls royce is to a ford pinto.
    I have used both, and dpkg's are much more configurable. they rarely (if ever)need to be forced, and WILL NOT conflict with installed packages. The package install will also tell you what other packages you need to install.
    deb's rule.
    rpm's rot.
  • C00l 1nst4ll 1s n0t 3n0ugh...

    Read www.insecure.org and make some quick statistics. See why Slackware is still the number 1 active installaction and Debian is no 2.

  • Sorta. It does automatically install depended-on packages, so you don't have to worry about finding all of the libraries for a particular program. Relatedly, it uninstalls apps when libraries they depend on are uninstalled. So you won't end up with broken apps.

    They haven't (yet) solved the problem of programs and libraries that were installed from source (i.e., not using dpkg). So it may not recognize libraries that you compiled yourself. The dpkg people hint that they're working on this.

    On the other hand, because of the open development, I have yet to find a library that wasn't packaged already. So, at least in my experience, the problem isn't that bad.

  • I have been very pleased with the speed that RedHat brings security upgrades out. Their speed responding to security holes is on par with Debian's.

    If one is to run a system that is current WRT securty, RedHat and Debian are the best bets.
  • See the quantity of bs that came out with R00tH4t 5.1 and compare it to any Slackware or Debian release. We are talking about RELEASES not about hot fixes after everything has been f... up on release. M$ is very good in that too, you know...
  • ...when my Debian install works?
    Seriously though, it's a preference. I happen to like Killian's....maybe you like Guiness. Taste. Preference. Room for all.
  • I am no Debian developer officially, but I think that's actually the recommended procedure. Part of the Debian packaging policy is to touch nothing in /usr/local, so ... anything you do there is free and clear of dpkg/apt/dselect/Debian's control. I put local stuff there, and generally don't worry about it -- if I need a development package, I just install the -dev version of the Debian library. (Have -yet- to find a library that hasn't been packaged. :) The local stuff occasionally breaks on upgrades -- but again, that's not the package manager's fault ... I did compile and install it, after all. Even using this strategy of just locally compiling applications, things break -very- infrequently. And, you'll never find a Debian-packaged app that depends on a library not packaged by Debian, so breakage the other way is an impossibility ... provided you haven't mucked around with your dynamic linker setup ... in which case, you know what you're doing, right? :)
  • I understand where you are coming from wondering which disto to choose. If it is any help, Debian is supposed to follow the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard as of Debian 2.2 (I know this is still in development). I have used many of the disto's out there, and keep coming back to Debian for a lot of reasons. Nonetheless, I know experienced linux users running RH and others--it has a lot to do with personal preference.

    Go ahead and give Debian a try...it has some good tools for setting up masquerading. (I installed the appropriate packages and everything was configured right for my multi-subnetted network!) Debian support is easy to find via IRC as well!
  • I've tasted debian before, but subsequently tried redhat just to see what all the fuss was about. I appreciate the role redhat has been playing, with getting the bugs in front of so many eyeballs, as it were. ;-) I think, though, that when Slink is finally released I'm going to find a permanent home with debian.
  • I have a .deb snapshot of CVS E on my screen right now, try

    http://www.debian.org/~jules/e-cvs/debs [debian.org]

    Daniel
  • I think you need to check your keyboard, it looks like a couple of your letter keys are sending numbers to the computer instead...

    Daniel
  • I'd like to be the first to point out that dpkg predates rpm. And rpm was created for purely political reasons not technical. And besides, what good do rpms do if you cant share them between dists?

    See this package format comparison [kitenet.net]
  • The distribution fragmentation is actaully a good thing in some ways. Debian suits those who love free software and who want to help with making a distribution. Redhat has ease of use for beginners and a strong corporate backing. Slackware is good for those who want to be able to mess with the entire system. Stampede is good if you want something that will take full advantage of the Pentium. Etc.

    As for forcing the distrubtion guys to do stuff, there is the Filesystem standard and what not. OTOH, part of the point is freedom. Each group tweaks its own system like it wants to, for whatever reason it wants to. That's part of the freedom everyone talks about; freedom to innovate, freedom to design and freedom to change.
  • Uhh, splintering? I dont think so, debian came before redhat. Therefore redhat is the one that splintered if you go by your reasoning.

    And debian is built on volunteers, just like the kernel is. If you actually had a clue you would know this.
  • >I don't give a sh*t about 100% pure 'free' software.

    you should care about your freedom.
  • People like you do not deserve to live, do the world a favor and kill yourself now.
  • Debian is developed the same way as the kernel, upon which redhat depends. So, redhat is both for and against the free software development model.

    Redhat's pkg management is adequate, yes. But Debian's is superb. How do you update your system? Do you watch redhat's site? Or freshmeat? Debian users don't have to do either of these. 'apt-get update;apt-get upgrade' and a few moments later, your system is refreshed. One of debian's major points is in-field upgradability, which redhat doesn't offer. Yes, you can upgrade rpms, but you have to fetch all the rpms yourself.

    Can you become part of redhat? You can become part of Debian. Debian has hundreds of developers, scattered around the world, all with varying degrees of responsibility and skills. Yet, we all consider each other as equals. From the youngest, a 14 year old, to the oldest, in his 60's. We have people on every continet, yet, we still manage to put together the most kick ass distribution, with hardly any disagreements.

    You have no idea how redhat does things, because they are a closed system. Debian has been open since the start, and our Debian Free Software Guidelines was one of the major things to convince Netscape to try moving toward Free Software.

    Other people/companies go with redhat, because they are always used to following the biggest rat in a pack. They don't know any better. A rat is still a rat.

    So, join Debian, where you can give back to the community.

  • Well I take back what i said

    but you obciously havent used debian before have you?

    contrary to what you may believe, redhat is not the end-all be-all of linux, if it is then we are in serious trouble
  • It's

    # dpkg --force-i-have-backups-and-know-what-im-doing --install libreadlineg2-*.deb

    HTH!
  • Hmm you have obviously never used Debian. It is far suprerior as far as maintainablity to RedHat. This is precisely because they delay their releases untill bugs are fixed. RedHat is alwyas releasing tons of fixes after their releases because they rush the releases out.

    Personally you sound like a cluebie who is new to Linux knows very little and believes that because you use one distro everyone should. So I suggest that until you know what you are talking about you don't post.
  • I think you got it backwards there bud.

    At least debian doesn't release buggy products like some others i know of. *cough*redhat*cough*
  • I'd just like to say this now. But you will be eating your words in a few days.
  • You've never used deb packages, or apt-get? I'm so sorry.
  • Debian is not 'just another distro.' It's a very mature and widely used distro. Without marketing it's #2. All debian needs is an installer that kicks RH's ass, and RH will be contributing to debian.
  • And there is much efficiency in you taking the time to whine about it...
  • You won't because RH is so easy to install. But I guarantee you that if you install debian you will love it. The release was delayed for one package 'dpkg.' What that tells you is that debian is serious about stable releases. I upgraded to slink 4 months ago and no package breaks or crashes. Yesterday I apt-get update && apt-get upgrade and in about 2 hours I had a very very stable and fast debian super distro. My 56k modem pulls this website down between 5kbps and 12. My system is faster and more stable than yours, and I don't need the worlds greatest hardware to do it.
  • People take life way to seriously. use what you want to use and stop trying to make everyone fit into your mold for life. and when someone challenges your mold does it truly matter?
  • Package: alien
    Priority: extra
    Section: admin
    Installed-Size: 89
    Maintainer: Joey Hess

    Personal friend of mine from highschool. I remember when he wrote this thing. He had to ask me about slackware packages...
  • Who cares what came before what. Windows is the computing standard now due to ease of installation and adequate package management. Supporting "splinter" OSes like Linux is simply doing computer users a disservice.

  • Congrats! You just took the grand prize for "most dorky comment from an AC"!

    Well done.

  • Oh wow, 3 months! geeze. You are clearly an expert on this matter.

    Redhat is for cloobies like yourself so i can see why you like it. But within a few more months you will come crawling to debian once you realize its superiority.
  • The HOWTOs are very useful for many reasons. For starters, the scripts that come with each distribution STILL only help with the maintenance and configuration of the different "packages" available. BUT, these same tools do NOT replace the need for the tools listed in the HOWTOs. If you read the NET3-HOWTO(or are we up to NET4 by now?), you will see a reference to programs such as pppd, ifconfig, route, and so on. The pppconfig script available for some distributions will only help with setting up pppd, but does not replace the need for pppd. You can also use the HOWTO to understand how the pppconfig script works, and perhaps overcome any weaknesses in the pppconfig script. The same is true for setting up ethernet cards, and for anything else. The HOWTO will almost always tell you how to do things by hand, without forcing you to use a script you may not understand, and which may not suit your needs.

    I hope this helps. Each distribution attempts to simplify installation and maintenance of the system in it's own way. Redhat goes for the graphical approach. Slackware goes for a barebones type of approach. Debian tends to be halfway between these two extremes. So, before looking at the differences, take a look at what is similar between the distributions. Yes, there are always people who argue about which is better, but the vast majority choose the distribution they prefer for their own reasons, and while they may not like another distribution, they will USUALLY not care what other people use(until that person who went with Redhat starts asking their Debian or Slackware using friends for help).

    My own bias is toward Debian, since there is generally a larger online user base who is available for help than the other distributions, and there is more a feeling of wanting to help other Linux users than the commercial distribution users.
  • Well, I agree they dropped KDE because they didn't control it. But there is also valid legal reasons for them doing this to.

    Did you read Bob Young's essay just recently posted here? Redhat wants brand loyalty, and you certainly can't have that using someone elses package manager. Makes you wonder...
  • I know that debian is really easy to install. But newbies go crazy with figuring out what hardware settings they need for X. If debian had an install that did all the video hardware detections (and set it up right) we'd be the king distro... This would be especially wonderful for laptop users. Now that there's a neomagic-xserver, there is no reason not to.
  • Debian is a better distro not because of taste or preference, but because objective standards (i.e., stability, upgrade, quality of packages overall, user support, etc. etc.) is better. If there are objective standards for making an evaluation, then the evaluation is valid. RedHat has one thing going for it--hardware detection. Debian is just better. I'm no closed minded zealot. I spent a full year trying out the various distributions. I've tried all that run on x86, and used them for at least one month for many hours. Debian really is easier, faster, stabler, easier to upgrade, etc. Dial the internet (type 'pon' or 'wvdial'); upgrade your distro (apt-get update; apt-get upgrade); install something (apt-get install something.deb). Have any window manager, have libc5 and glibc2 , old libs, new libs, any mta, any news server, any mua. Anything that runs on linux can run on debian. You slack folks can even compile tar.gz stuff to run. I have the 2.2 kernel, and the pcmcia-cs tar.gz stuff going;
    I did the same for PINE (then I packaged it... http://ompages.com/debian/pkgs/pine/pine.html). No, I'm not committed to debian because of some irrational exhuberance for any old distro. I spend a long time evaluating and deciding what was better. Debian is definitely and unequivocably(sp?), the best. Try debian, try it right. If you have any troubled go to irc.us.debian.org #debian and debian-user-request@lists.debian.org and get help fast (like real time support folks). Don't be afraid, you can do it.
  • There was a press release a while back. You say GNU/Linux. Only debian is Debian GNU/Linux. Debian, GNOME, emacs, etc. are part of the GNU project. So you gotta love em.
  • Nope,
    r00th4t is r00th4t. A system to be possessed by every idiot passing by...
  • Maybe the stable releases are a little "out of date", but that is easily remedied. Change 'stable' to 'unstable' in /etc/apt/sources.list and run an update+upgrade. Everything to the latest :)

    --
  • dselect is definatly ugly. gnome-apt is very nice though.

    --
  • But of course, people will never believe this because they think redhat is the greatest company to ever live. "That linux 5.2 thing is really cool!"
  • I would rather see debian push back the release then ship with bugs. Windows slips shipping dates
    because nothing works at all. Linux 2.2 postponed
    because it wasn't solid enough on every machine. (Still isn't 100% solid, but better then most everything else out there.) Debian postpones for a pretty minor dpkg issue. I'd say it is definatly good form. (And it is only being sliped a few days...)

    I'm glad debian doesn't get as much press as redhat and some of the others. Keeps it cleaner of that media/commercial influence.

    --
  • how does dpkg not work? I have not had any problems that were not related to mixing libraries in weird ways.

    --
  • Debian is not a splinter group. It is a group of highly dedicated vollenteers who's aim is not in making money. Debian's aim is not in creating an 'adequate' package management system. It is in creating an excelent one. Ease of installation is in reality a moot point since the installation is a one time thing. System managability is the important factor, and debian maintainence is much better then RHL.

    Regardless of who is better then who though, it is important that we not get the frame of mind that "This distribution is the most used, so it must be the best, and all other distributions should go away and support it." Choice is the very thing that makes linux so powerful. When we give of that choice, we are destined only to become another microsoft.

    --
  • I hear the music of adventure calling me. The fast and bulbous land of po-ta-to is my destiny. :-)
  • 3 Months of linux is childs play compared to even the meager year of linux exp. that I have, let alone the 3+ years of many of the debian developers. I wholy admit to being "young" in the linux community.

    I have used both RedHat and debian for about 6 months each. I probably will not change from debian. However, I still have a tendency to recommend RedHat to people that are just getting started with linux. When the xwindows configuration and initial installation overall is nicer, I will likely stop recommending RedHat altogether.

    RedHat is *NOT* linux. RedHat is a distribution. RedHat has done a lot of good for the community, however, commercial motivation is overall a bad thing. Debian can delay shipping without worrying about stockholders or investors getting upset. Delaying shipment because of bugs is a *GOOD* thing.

    You don't see multiple distributions of windows 98. You also don't see one good one. Linux has multiple *good* distibutions and one excelent one: Debian
    Choice makes linux what it is.

    FYI: I don't think RMS would be interested in taking over RedHat. Remember, Stallman is for OpenSource and Free Software. RedHat ships commercial stuff (be it only demoware). Stallman wouldn't allow that.

    --
  • like a hole in the head
  • I used the unstable branch of debian from summer of 96 until a few months ago, with only rare problems. Every few months an incompatible or unsychronized problem would render the system unusable. There was also a period when I had to use bo X with hamm. No problem, just hit = on the packages in question.

    Maybe it's the particular days I upgraded slink, but this became once or twice a month, and I had to downgrade back to hamm.

    Don't get me wrong; debian is wonderful, and as of a year or so ago, easier to install than RH. But slink hasn't been nearly as reliable as preceding unstable variants.

    And my bloodpressure's been better since I discovered I could edit /etc/issue and the like to remove that ugly "GNU/" from in front of Linux :)

    hawk, who will put FreeBSD utilities on his once he gets a few hours to spare.
  • They are evil and dirty.
    They have a lot of money.
    They buy programmers. They buy you.
    They seek power. They seek control.
    They charge you for what is not theirs.
    They sell softwares that are free.
    They lie. They steal. They cheat.
    They stab in the back.
    And RedHat is worst. They fool you programmer. They make profit from the free software you make - and they do not pay you.
    They enslave programmers.
    So, next time, think better before spending your money on this dirty company. Think well. Remember that you do not want another company to monopolize software - this time FREE software.

    Support Debian.
  • actually... I use debian on my laptop. and haven't used slack since well it's been awhile. my point was more to those people who use a distro as a way to look down on someone else. To me it's all linux some of it may be packaged rather strange for my taste but it's still linux.and that's the point taste use what you want I use debian and don't care what anyone else uses.

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