RHEL 10 Plans To Drop X.Org Server Except For XWayland (redhat.com) 96
"Red Hat is going to do away with the X.Org server and support Wayland and XWayland for apps that currently (or only) run on X11," writes Slashdot reader motang. Red Hat's Carlos Soriano Sanchez confirmed on the Red Hat blog: "The result of this evaluation is that, while there are still some gaps and applications that need some level of adaptation, we believe the Wayland infrastructure and ecosystem are in good shape, and that we're on a good path for the identified blockers to be resolved by the time RHEL 10 is out, planned to be released on the first half of 2025.
With this, we've decided to remove Xorg server and other X servers (except Xwayland) from RHEL 10 and the following releases. Xwayland should be able to handle most X11 clients that won't immediately be ported to Wayland, and if needed, our customers will be able to stay on RHEL 9 for its full life cycle while resolving the specifics needed for transitioning to a Wayland ecosystem. It's important to note that "Xorg Server" and "X11" are not synonymous, X11 is a protocol that will continue to be supported through Xwayland, while the Xorg Server is one of the implementations of the X11 protocol.
[...]
This decision will allow us to focus our efforts starting from RHEL 10 solely on a modern stack and ecosystem. This means we will be able to tackle problems such as HDR, increased security, setups with mixed low and high density displays or very high density displays, better GPU/Display hot-plugging, better gestures and scrolling, and so on. We are confident that Wayland will provide a solid platform and we're excited to work with the community and all of our partners and customers on building the future for Linux."
With this, we've decided to remove Xorg server and other X servers (except Xwayland) from RHEL 10 and the following releases. Xwayland should be able to handle most X11 clients that won't immediately be ported to Wayland, and if needed, our customers will be able to stay on RHEL 9 for its full life cycle while resolving the specifics needed for transitioning to a Wayland ecosystem. It's important to note that "Xorg Server" and "X11" are not synonymous, X11 is a protocol that will continue to be supported through Xwayland, while the Xorg Server is one of the implementations of the X11 protocol.
[...]
This decision will allow us to focus our efforts starting from RHEL 10 solely on a modern stack and ecosystem. This means we will be able to tackle problems such as HDR, increased security, setups with mixed low and high density displays or very high density displays, better GPU/Display hot-plugging, better gestures and scrolling, and so on. We are confident that Wayland will provide a solid platform and we're excited to work with the community and all of our partners and customers on building the future for Linux."
"Excited to work with the community" (Score:5, Funny)
Ha ha ha! That's a good one! And you guys don't think IBM has a sense of humor...
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Ha ha ha! That's a good one! And you guys don't think IBM has a sense of humor...
It's full of humour. Better scrolling too apparently?!
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âoeI love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it!"
I'll Let You... (Score:1)
I'm ok with this (Score:5, Insightful)
for two reasons.
one: i use Debian so their choice is irrelevant to me.
two: I've moved to wayland and have seen no reason to go back. i have a modern high resolution hdr supporting vrr monitor and vrr just works properly on it. vr headset works too. i do a lot of Linux gaming and the experience with Wayland has been good. my experience in moving to wayland has been extremely painless as a user.
i haven't done much gtk /Linux desktop development in a very long time but so i can't say if it makes that easier. but it's obviously not bad enough to convince enough people to continue working on xorg.
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Turn off hardware cursors, and assuming you don't have any exotic keyboard configuration then you should be good to go with Wayland.
Of course if you need to run actual X apps, then you'll still be using XWayland. Assuming the app you need isn't an X window manager. But there are enough analogs available for Wayland to satisfy most people.
Like most things, what is the best software choice for one person isn't the necessarily the best for everyone.
Re:I'm ok with this (Score:5, Informative)
> Assuming the app you need isn't an X window manager.
Which means that Xwayland doesn't implement the X11 protocol properly.
> But there are enough analogs available for Wayland to satisfy most people.
You're kidding, right? Xwayland isn't even able to do proper X11 authentication.
> Like most things, what is the best software choice for one person isn't the necessarily the best for everyone.
Keep telling yourself that.
Re:I'm ok with this (Score:5, Interesting)
Quick question, imagine one day I install a recent distro on my laptop and it has Wayland (and XWayland). Can it "ssh -X" into a legacy machine with X? Asking because even if Wayland becomes standard, there are going to be legacy systems for 2 decades. I "ssh -X" into a RHEL5 every day at work, and that is not going to change for another decade or two (I also have several windows XP where I use TigerVNC).
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Also, I'm not trying to be mean but the writing has been on the wall for more than 15 years that X.org will be replaced by Wayland. We all knew this day would come and our choices are to assimilate or migrate to something else that is committed to supporting X.org for the indefinite future.
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you could install an RDP or VNC server and get great performance with your remote GUI.
RHEL5 came with KDE 3.5 and it has krfb. Unfortunately I found the version to be buggy so I preferred building x11vnc 0.9.13 using gcc-4.1 that came with the system. This is only a partial solution as we can be several users connecting concurrently.
and our choices are to assimilate or migrate to something else that is committed to supporting X.org for the indefinite future.
I'm just the engineer who needs to do the daily job. I use industrial machines that won't migrate unless they explode and insurance buys us a new one. If the computer fails entirely then I'll be able to get a new computer but for as long as I can find spare parts
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Yes you sure can ssh -X into a headless machine. That's the whole point of XWayland, which gets launched automatically by Gnome and KDE (and others) on demand.
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XWayland is your local X server that the remote X display socket will be forwarded to.
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"Which means that Xwayland doesn't implement the X11 protocol properly."
The problem is X isnt just a single protocol. Theres the core X protocol and a bunch of other ones hacked incrementally ontop of it over decades. Its a steaming mess and these where APIs well before the modern era of Semantic standardized api design.
Then on top of that you have 30 or more other "extension" protocols, a number of which are Xfree86 (Now XOrg) specials like BigFont, an the majority where not designed for the modern realiti
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So sacrifices need to be made to ensure that using legacy software isnt going to undermine the whole security posture of wayland , because if you exempt some software from being secure you exempt all software.
Or, there has to be a way to disable the enhanced security.
If I want to control a program from another program (closed source, no API, I have to send it keystrokes and mouse clicks), is it possible with Wayland? It is possible with Windows (at least an older version, I did not check it with 10 or 11) and it's most likely possible with X11.
Do I just run the "insecure" program as root? Will it then have the permissions to spy on me or do whatever?
Oh yeah, and Wayland still does not support applications positi
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Or, there has to be a way to disable the enhanced security.
No thanks, we're good.
If I want to control a program from another program (closed source, no API, I have to send it keystrokes and mouse clicks), is it possible with Wayland? It is possible with Windows (at least an older version, I did not check it with 10 or 11) and it's most likely possible with X11.
Not trivially. Wayland wouldn't let you do this from some arbitrary client that also had a connection to it, unlike Xorg.
In this case, you'd need to either simulate the input events using something like uinput, or see if the compositor will let you do so via some trusted method.
sway will let you do this, but I don't know about kwin or mutter, though I suspect they do since they both support "recording a series of automation steps".
Do I just run the "insecure" program as root? Will it then have the permissions to spy on me or do whatever?
That... isn't even relevant.
Oh yeah, and Wayland still does not support applications positioning their own windows. So, do I have to write a script that launches the application and moves its windows or do I always have to move them manually?
I'm beginning to think y
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I'm beginning to think you're creating a contrived situation, here.
There are programs that have multiple windows. On Windows or X11 when such a program starts, it can arrange its windows so it makes sense. Do I have to do that manually on Wayland every time I start the program?
No thanks, we're good.
There are different levels of security and sometimes security impedes work for no real security. increase. Take Java for example. It's extremely annoying to have to add everything (ILO etc of various servers) to the "trusted" list and still have 3 warnings to click through, just because I do not have
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There are programs that have multiple windows. On Windows or X11 when such a program starts, it can arrange its windows so it makes sense. Do I have to do that manually on Wayland every time I start the program?
Ah. That's a legitimate problem.
Right now, "shell windows" are handled via the xdg-shell API. It handles creating new surfaces that have dictated positioning (think popups, dialogs). There isn't currently a method for making "satellite" windows, but I suspect given the need, that will arise. No one is fundamentally against that.
There are different levels of security and sometimes security impedes work for no real security. increase.
That is very much not the case here.
Take Java for example. It's extremely annoying to have to add everything (ILO etc of various servers) to the "trusted" list and still have 3 warnings to click through, just because I do not have a certificate for "10.0.0.1" or the server I'm connecting to is older and does not have some feature activated.
Hah, a problem close to my own heart. I have to deal with those fucking things all the time. Mostly DRACs. I have recently learned, that with DRA
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It includes things like not letting an application do nasty things with other windows, like snoop their input.
And what if I need to do it? As I said, there should be a way for root or whatever to do stuff like that.
It's like browsers dropping old SSL versions or algorithms. Instead of a warning, the browser just refuses to connect. And when I need to connect to something old that cannot be updated (for example ILO of an old server or web management of an old switch), I cannot do that and have to go look for an old version of the browser. Since buying a new server just for this is not an option, the actual options a
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And what if I need to do it? As I said, there should be a way for root or whatever to do stuff like that.
Then you're shit-out-of-luck.
You can do it like it's done in every other OS, via a system key-logging mechanism
It's like browsers dropping old SSL versions or algorithms. Instead of a warning, the browser just refuses to connect. And when I need to connect to something old that cannot be updated (for example ILO of an old server or web management of an old switch), I cannot do that and have to go look for an old version of the browser. Since buying a new server just for this is not an option, the actual options are to use the not-so-secure SSL version or just use plain HTTP with no encryption at all.
It is kind-of like that.
But also not kind-of-like that.
It's more like modern http protocols being designed with no way to not have encrypted traffic.
I don't use RHEL so this choice does not affect me, at least for now. I'll continue using X11 until Debian and Ubuntu make it impossible to do so (and then maybe I'll look for another distribution).
I do hope they at least keep around a package for you to install it, but the default in Ubuntu and Debian is already Wayland, and has been for years.
Maybe at the time Wayland will work OK with possibilities to be insecure if need be.
See the above example of http.
It really is like that.
Insecure things are purposely left out of the
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I do hope they at least keep around a package for you to install it, but the default in Ubuntu and Debian is already Wayland, and has been for years.
My game PC has Ubuntu 22.04 LTS with KDE and it's Xorg. I do not remember having to choose one or the other when installing it, but I installed it a while ago.Maye it's different because I use KDE.
Well, whatever, if by the time they force Wayland on me it is still not to my liking, I can just continue to use an old version of the OS that has X11. It seems that Steam and various games is either statically linked or has its own libs that it needs, so an old kernel should last a while.
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My game PC has Ubuntu 22.04 LTS with KDE and it's Xorg. I do not remember having to choose one or the other when installing it, but I installed it a while ago.Maye it's different because I use KDE.
Na, they don't ask you to choose (though you can usually pick either/or in SDDM)
KDE may still default to X (but won't in KDE 6)
These changes are actually upstream of Debian/Ubuntu.
Debian/Ubuntu also have setup their login managers to default to X when using the non-free NVidia drivers (because they're highly problematic in Wayland due to some missing support in those drivers for a specific graphics pipeline)
Well, whatever, if by the time they force Wayland on me it is still not to my liking, I can just continue to use an old version of the OS that has X11. It seems that Steam and various games is either statically linked or has its own libs that it needs, so an old kernel should last a while.
Ya, Steam's runtime is pretty close to OS agnostic, as long as you've got the basic 32-bit libc a
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> Then you're shit-out-of-luck.
You can do it like it's done in every other OS, via a system key-logging mechanism
Ahh, yes, treat me like I'm an Apple user, master! While you are at it protect me from myself by making sure Root can't even do root things, like delete or move files unless I reboot the whole fucking machine to make a single file change... after all the scary warnings!
Stop infantilizing Linux. It wasn't made to be a completely safe impregnable bastion, even though defaults obviously strive fo
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Debian/Ubuntu also have setup their login managers to default to X when using the non-free NVidia drivers
Oh, I also use that driver.
I understand that at some point Wayland may become unavoidable. However, if that point is far enough in the future then either Wayland may be extended to support some of the features needed (like window positioning) or a compositor or something else may be created/extended to support them.
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All the "X" whatever details aside.
The real question is... When I SSH from a Windows machine with MobaXterm: to a RH10 server will I still be able to execute all the GUI programs and Interact with those programs properly from my Windows desktop over the SSH session just like before?
Will I still be able to run other X window managers and any new GUI programs RH10 has through that session?
How about when I'm on another Linux desktop like an Ubuntu 22 LTS machine SSh'ing into a RH10 machine?
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That's one of those "irreparable" myths. X11 is insecure in the same way Linux or Unix is; just like two X11 clients on the same display can change each others windows/event masks, two unix processes running under the same credentials can send signals to each other and read or write each other's virtual memory [1].
Since you have already given up on running remote apps on your display (because wayland is not network-tra
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Nice proverb, thanks. :)
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"Like most things, what is the best software choice for one person isn't the necessarily the best for everyone."
Yes, but what's embarrassing is the particular software that this group of users is making choices between. OS and UI components should not be subject to what's the "best software choice for one person". Different users need different applications, not different core OS components.
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And also, what is the best software choice for IBM as a vendor isn't necessarily the best for everyone.
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Are you trolling right now or do you seriously not know that IBM owns RH and are the reason RH has been going down the drain.
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Sure but RH set this trajectory a long time ago, well before IBM acquired them. None of this (whether it's good or bad) has anything whatsoever to do with IBM's corporate direction. This could change in the future, obviously. But for now, RH acts as a completely independent business unit within IBM. RH has intended to move to eventually move to Wayland and deprecate X.org for a long long time. Especially since there are no developers (in or out of RH) working on the X.org server anymore.
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Most modern Linux applications are using QT or GTK3+ for their GUI which have Wayland backends. As do most rendering libraries. So most of the time you fire the app up, it sees you're running Wayland, loads up the backend and that's the end of the story. For the rest, and for remote apps, run X over Wayland if needs be.
It means the desktop doesn't have 30 years of bottlenecks and limitations to workaround and can offer a modern and secure experience but X is still there for people who need it.
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krfb still doesn't work correctly in Wayland (when trying to use krfb in wayland it tries to send a screen resolution of 65535x65535) so I am glad i still have the choice to use X11 on boxes that I use remotely.
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Question: how is your video playing experience?
On the latest Fedora F39, on Wayland, VLC cannot show the video at all while SMplayer is buggy as hell.
I am using an nvidia graphics card, but surely basic video does not need any advanced capabilities?
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Wayland still crashes with gnome and nvidia (Score:2)
For me wayland still crashes once or twice per month with gnome-shell and nvidia - drm is to blame...
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You're still using GNOME?
Maybe you didn't get the memo but their competence is mythological, not legendary.
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I've tried many.
I like GNOME3 the most.
And if such popular, widely-used environment has issues then I do not expect other to fare much better.
Thats fine (Score:4, Interesting)
Most of the time it is installed headless anyway.
We wont use it though. Here we have processes that require the X11 protocol over the network.
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And that continues to work. The X11 backends to popular toolkits will be around for some time, and automatically will drop to X11 when Wayland isn't available (such as on a remote ssh connection). So you'll be able to ssh from your wayland desktops to headless machines and run X11 apps.
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Just asking, because I'd figure someone who did would know that the X server in a networked instance is local, not remote.
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He's correct, though. 90% of all RHEL installs are going to be on servers so no desktop environment is installed and used at all, so this change will not affect very many customers. In those cases, access is remote, with occasional apps needing to remote over ssh -X, which will all continue to function.
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We wont use it though. Here we have processes that require the X11 protocol over the network.
No matter what process they have that requires X11 protocol, the X server will be run locally, not on a headless machine.
So it literally doesn't matter, as you said, which seems to me contrary to what they said.
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Yes we do.
And yes I was talking about the local side. Its fine because RHEL is installed headless so RHEL can change anything in that regard.
As far as the local one is concered, we run Xming. Not even on Linux.
XWayland is Xorg (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, common sense says one should want Wayland to get the macOS-style windowing isolation benefits with genuine modern windowing support included (the latter being unlike macOS).
Re:XWayland isn't Xorg (Score:2, Informative)
Xwayland is unstable and slow and doesn't support everything that X11 does
Re:XWayland isn't Xorg (Score:5, Funny)
Shush, you! This is new and cool and fixes stuff no one cares about while breaking things they do care about in exchange for lots of cool benefits such as {{^{!NO CARRIER_
Re:XWayland isn't Xorg (Score:4, Insightful)
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Like MacOS? No thanks. (Score:4, Insightful)
Where the app crashes and the window is frozen and cant be moved (Windows also guilty of this), is that the modern windowing you have in mind?
Re:XWayland is Xorg (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want the benefits of X11 you can just run your entire desktop environment inside XWayland to get the same experience you had before.
I ssh from home into a server at work, and run individual programs via X11 forwarding. Does XWayland support that? I can't answer that myself since I can't get Wayland to work.
So far my Wayland experience has been disastrous in ways I've already detailed, and it has been 100% unusable even from a fresh OS install.
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Yes it works seamlessly. Most wayland desktops always run Xwayland rootless. As long as DISPLAY is set when you ssh, forwarded X11 apps work just as they did before. So the experience you get with Gnome and KDE is exactly the same as you are used to. I'm sure other desktops are similar.
Colour Management (Score:5, Informative)
As a photographer, I want to use a fully colour-managed toolchain. As yet, this is not available with Wayland.
This is a constant theme of discussion on pixls.us [pixls.us].
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Just wait a few more decades, it takes time to copy the ideas of others. If your profession depends on it, use a real computer platform where developers support users rather than ideals.
Re:Colour Management (Score:5, Informative)
Ignorant people complain about the X11 colour system being complicated and it is. But this sort of thing is why.
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Well, there's a reason why (Score:3)
I dropped roothat over 15 years ago.
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It doesn't matter. If Redhat does something, Debian follows suit in a year or two. Just like they did with systemd.
Re:Well, there's a reason why (Score:5, Insightful)
which is why I'm running devuan. none of that redfart crap here
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The fork should have happened much sooner. Or better yet, Debian never should have started justifying and adopting RedHat's idiotic garbage in the first place.
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You may want to check your facts. On Devuan daedalus (with backports) and using pipewire 0.3.85 just fine. I assume you are blaming Redhat for championing another Poettering overreach, which is probably fair, though Ubuntu being Debian based doesn't help. My experience with Devuan since 2018 has been good and it probably helps that I don't run Gnome (been using XFCE for a very long time).
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Oh, yeah, I gave up on Gnome around the time metacity was introduced, because no, I do not want my window manager to keep calling my attention to its existence all the time, thank you very much, although I continued using its panel until MATE came out. The last individual component of Gnome that I was still using was gnome-terminal, which I had to stop upgrading sometime in the naughties and eventually moved away from altogether in 2014, for reasons that I discussed at the time here:
http://mistersanity.blo [blogspot.com]
relevance (Score:2)
Honestly, I this point I don't care, the question is if Alma/Rocky will include X.org or not. And since I am still using Fedora on my desktop, what is included in the MATE spin.
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It's possible repos like rpmfusion or EPEL will still offer X.org rpms and support X11 sessions.
Also most desktop projects, including Mate, are working on wayland support.
With recent support added for "rootful" mode to XWayland, it is now possible to run traditional X11 desktops on top of Wayland, which is well past due. This would have helped Wayland adoption had this been in there from the early days. Not sure if Compiz could support rootful Xwayland though.
As an added benefit, Wayland is MIT Licensed... (Score:2)
So if RedHat wants to withold source code for the graphics stack, from RHEL 10 onwards, they can do so 100% legally, no grey areas, minimal fuss.
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Note that Wayland isn't a graphics stack but dictates how graphics stacks should behave.
RHEL likely will stick with Mutter, which is GPL. Another possiblity is kwin, which is GPL.
Sway or Hyprland would not be Copyleft, but I doubt RHEL would go there.
Re: As an added benefit, Wayland is MIT Licensed.. (Score:1)
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When you see a company make a change, you ask what the change enables, not what they are currently doing.
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Do they withhold any MIT licenced source code now?
Not yet .
But is the next logical step for RHEL10. To move as many of the Distro components as possible to BSD/MIT/Apache/MPL and withhold those sources from RHEL 10. Probably, they will keep contributing patches upstream, but keep the backported patches' source code close to their chest.
Also, probably, they will publish sources for CentOS stream, except for a small "embargo window" lasting a few days/weeks before the next patch for RHEL lands, until a few days/weeks after the patch has landed, to make cust
who cares (Score:1)
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who cares?
Many Fortune 500 companies care.
Many S&P 500 companies care.
Many slashdot readers work(ed) for those companies, so they care too, even if their private machines have not run RedHat in many lustres.
Those companies have tons of cash, and cash is king. Big(Blue+Red)Hat does not care about you and me, our home lab and our Linux laptop. They care about those companies.
Remember the golden rule: The one who has the gold makes the rules.
PS: If you moved away from RedHat and consider that an achievement, more po
a maintainer problem with x.org (Score:2)
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X is still receiving updates, but no new features.
However, the last thrust of X was largely pushing responsibility out of X11 (Xorg 'drivers' were replaced, so you don't need a lot of activity there, Windows are no longer 'drawn' by the X server, they are redirected and the Compositor is responsible for actually drawing, at least for most modern X11 desktops). Wayland in part is driven by thinking "formally go the rest of the way to not having a canonical GUI implementation at all, instead define the rules
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Here's the thing, Wayland may be active but it's still inferior to X in the stability department, even though X isn't.
It's been all these years and the result is still inferior to what they would have accomplished by fixing X like they didn't want to do. And there's literally no technical reason why Wayland should ever be better than what they could have done with X. The scary, crufty parts of X aren't even used in a modern rendering path. What if they spent those 15 years deprecating the parts we don't use
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Part of the issue is that comparison doesn't actually make sense.
Xorg is an actual implementation of a GUI infrastructure. Admittedly delegating a *lot* to the kernel and compositors in a typical modern desktop, but it is still an implementation. More to the point, it is 'the' X11 implementation, you don't have some folks installing one X server versus another, everybody just runs Xorg.
Wayland is a spec. You have multiple implementations. A user running Mutter is running something relatively alien to a
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GNOME can piss straight up a rope, and then it can tell itself whatever it wants about rain. I ran it for years but I'm over it now, and I've been running KDE for some years now. In between I ran Windows since I was mostly gaming. After GNOME 2 I lost interest, at the time KDE wasn't that great. Plasma is. It delivers most of what I liked about compiz+gnome 2, and almost everything I liked about Windows 7. That version of Explorer still feels better than Dolphin, though.
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I will agree with the general sentiment, however for some reason Gnome gets all the 'default desktop' nod from the biggest distributions.
So while Gnome is a notably frustrating hurdle in Wayland that would be nice to ignore, they happen to have the hearts and minds of distro maintainers...
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Redwho? (Score:2)
Does Wayland do EVERYTHING X does? (Score:3)
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That's not a fair question. Do you use EVERY feature of X? Let's not forget there are some features of X that you SHOULD NOT use, because those features are horribly insecure, especially on modern systems.
Does Wayland do what I need? Does Wayland do what I want? I've been on Wayland since 2021, because the answers are yes and yes to those much fairer questions.
Steam Support (Score:2)
My only concern with distros going this route is support for Steam. I've successfully played a number of games just fine under Fedora by flipping from Wayland back to the standard Xorg, but if the Wayland-only strategy is going to accelerate, the folks at Steam really need to get their stuff together, or alienate a significant (and growing) portion of the gaming community.
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SteamOS (Steam Deck) already is on Wayland in the game mode.
Window Managers (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, I don't care too much about the X11 vs Wayland debate, so long as whatever I'm using works. However, like many people, I'm quite picky about the user interface and have spent a couple decades customizing everything to my liking. From what I've seen, Wayland simply doesn't support most old X11 window managers, and there aren't any decent ones for Wayland yet. GNOME is the only one I've heard that seems to work, but I find it to be completely unusable. Sway is at least tolerable, but it's still a bit disappointing in comparison.
I haven't seen any traction on cloning any of the good old window managers to support Wayland, so I'm curious as to whether there's a way now to use an X11 window manager in Wayland, or is there any plan for that in the future?
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I'm a big proponent of Wayland (Score:2)
But I'm more of a proponent of the correct tool for the job. While I have a long history of fighting with people who insist that Wayland = evil because of lack of network transparency, *THIS IS THE ONE TIME IT ACTUALLY IS TRUE*.
To all you people complaining about Wayland in Ubuntu, or Mint, or whatever desktop OS... piss off. On the other hand now that we're talking about an objectively enterprise server product let me go get the torch and pitchforks. I want to be part of this lynching.
Finally (Score:1)
Sometimes it's good to trim the fat, and Linux needs to do so more often. Basically, Android is successful by doing exactly this. They re-implemented the
Does this mean Xrdp goes away, too? (Score:2)
Does this mean Xrdp goes away, too? How to we create and access remote desktops, then?