Latest Windows Preview Build Adds Support For Linux GUI Apps (windows.com) 94
jonesy16 writes: While users have long been able to run Linux GUI apps on Windows by installing a separate X Server, this marks the first time that native support is available through the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL). Audio support and hardware acceleration are also provided, seemingly enabling a limitless set of use cases for those wishing to live the dual OS life. The change is identified in the recent preview build release along with a more in-depth discussion of the graphical subsystem now called WSLg.
Re: Still beating the dead horse?? (Score:2)
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Re: Still beating the dead horse?? (Score:3, Informative)
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In case you did not notice, it is moderated at -1. That means that anyone who browses the site at the recommended level will not see it. Only people who specifically want to see such content do.
Microsoft invented the 3 E's (Score:1, Insightful)
Extend
Extinguish
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My first thought, this looks like the beginning of step 2.
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My first thought, this looks like the beginning of step 2.
What's the market share percentage for Desktop Linux? After twenty years of The Year of Linux on The Desktop just how much extending is really necessary here? Of course the real threat is the OSS apps being embraced, not the Linux kernel, that owns the server space and likely Scientic applications I would think. This bit is akin to what linux did with ZFS, something they've been lusting for for a long time. They extended it. This is just Microsoft showing how it's done. Plain as day but, historically, seemi
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2%... which is about quadruple what it was 15 years ago. Double that if you include ChromeOS.
2% of Microsoft's annual revenue is about three billion dollars. Seems like that might be worth some effort to keep people in their software ecosystem.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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That's extremely unlikely and doesn't make any real sense, especially most apps run best natively on Windows to begin with. Pretty much any popular Linux application already has a Windows version. No this is still squarely aimed at developers. MS doesn't care that much about the target platform a developer is focused on, provided the developers use Windows and Visual Studio to do the work. And frankly they have a pretty attractive platform for it, whether you're building server software, or cross-platfo
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This has not been my experience at all - most cross-platform software that I run executes faster under Linux and I don't have to deal with all of Microsoft's fuckery such as Windows Update rebooting and/or trashing my system as well as telemetry nonsense.
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I'm not talking about a Linux workstation speed vs Windows on the same hardware. The OP is specifically talking about Linux apps on WSL on Windows. Running Linux LibreOffice inside of WSL doesn't make a lot of sense on Windows even if it ran just as well. I can't see most Windows users ever wanting to do that, frankly. But if MS really wants to promote Windows as a way to run Linux apps, then that's probably not the worst thing in the world, however it is very unlikely.
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Many of the Windows versions are crap though. Poor compatibility via compatibility layers, difficult to compile and have issues with things like the Windows filesystem and command line conventions.
WSL2 gives you real Linux with a real kernel and popular distros like Ubuntu. Performance is basically native and everything works as you would expect, so it's a huge step up for developers. With GUI support it opens up a lot more apps that would otherwise be difficult to port.
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You should have a good read of article on how it all works [microsoft.com]. Here's a relevant excert:
It was also important for us to build a Linux applications desktop environment that closely followed standards. We wanted applications to run as-is, without the need for any modifications. We didn't want Linux applications to have to adapt or change their behavior to run within WSLg, we wanted WSLg to follow all Linux desktop stand
Re: Microsoft invented the 3 E's (Score:1)
They said much the same about their version of Java. Luckily that didnâ(TM)t work out.
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Exactly. It's just running a Linux application with X support. The user still has to supply the Z server, it's just that WSL now supports all the finicky business of network connections internally.
I wouldn't even call it an "extend". It's more like "Windows can now run GUI Linux apps, something Linux has done for decades now".
One thing I'd like to know is how the third E will be accomplished. Because considering that Ballmer tried his hardest to do it and failed. And I really cannot see how Microsoft can ex
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I wouldn't even call it an "extend". It's more like "Windows can now run GUI Linux apps, something Linux has done for decades now".
Linux can run Linux GUI apps shocker. Not really comparing apples to apples is it? How long has Linux been able to run GUI Windows apps in the same manner as Windows now can on Linux? And no, WINE doesn't count as that's a third party app.
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Linux has been able to run Windows apps in a virtual machine but showing only individual app windows on the Linux desktop ever since the early days of VMware. VirtualBox can do it also.
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I think it's possible it's the other way, that MS will simplify their own OS by adopting various free software stacks.
Here they have X11 and Wayland interfacing with Win32 glue code. If they transitioned their own graphics stack to Mesa then they'd get all the benefits of Vulkan, LLVMPipe, Zink etc without spending a dime on implementing cross platform standards. And there are already cleanroom efforts to reproduce shaders for Direct3D.
MS want to lock you into Win 10, sure, but it won't be long before some
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My first thought, this looks like the beginning of step 2.
But how? How do you extinguish open source software?
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By retaining or taking market share, the same way Microsoft has dominated desktop OSes.
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By retaining or taking market share, the same way Microsoft has dominated desktop OSes.
But that demonstratably didn't extinguish Linux, it's more prevalent than ever before. Same goes for proprietary software like Apple's Mac operating system that itself is more popular than ever and even evolved into iOS. The desktop is the last bastion of Microsoft's operating system dominance having failed in server, embedded and mobile.
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Microsoft has so many barnacles in its code that it has to shift to Linux. Of a handful of barnacles (going back to Unix), many Linux distros no include systemd instead of initd. Microsoft has much legacy insanity, that you simply cannot get away with for long with Linux because of its open source nature.
Microsoft used much BSD code over the years, which is legal. They didn't publish that code because they didn't have to do so.
The latest generation of coders doesn't remember Ballmer, doesn't remember the di
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Microsoft has so many barnacles in its code that it has to shift to Linux. Of a handful of barnacles (going back to Unix), many Linux distros no include systemd instead of initd. Microsoft has much legacy insanity, that you simply cannot get away with for long with Linux because of its open source nature.
Well yes but that's why Microsoft has such extensive backwards compatibility, the Win32 API is very much still supported. Though I do prefer the strategy of Apple (and Linux) of just recompiling your old code and making the necessary changes to keep things up to date.
The latest generation of coders doesn't remember Ballmer, doesn't remember the diatribe and FUD campaigns, doesn't remember the business slime that Microsoft spread and so is more willing to go, fine, I'll just execute as a VM-ish installation within my WIndows desktop, where all my xbox stuff is, anyway.
That illustrates how long ago it was, it was a different company under different leadership at a different time. The world of computing is so much different today, much more diverse and Microsoft seems to be acknowledging that, while Windows is
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Microsoft has not changed.
You've just not been paying attention.
Re:Microsoft invented the 3 E's (Score:4, Interesting)
Fucking hell, you lot are like the conspiracy theorists waiting for the end of the world according to the Mayan calendar. It's the same fucking dull boring irrelevant incorrect posts every time the word "Microsoft" comes up for 20 years.
Will you ever give it up? We've had two decades, two CEOs, and a complete change of staff and mentality at Microsoft since then.
You're literally living in the 90s, I've no idea how the fuck you even survive in IT if you're so incapable of updating your knowledge of the market, or is that the problem? you don't? you sit at home bitter and failed thinking it's everyone else's but yours? Can we really not have a sensible discussion about this somewhat interesting new technology without you bitter turds harping on about something that happened so long ago and is irrelevant to the Microsoft of today?
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It's the same nonsense we saw with SecureBoot, oh what a giant conspiracy that was going to be! It was going to extinguish Linux on the desktop and all manufacturers would be bowing to Microsoft with secret backdoor deals to lock down systems so that you could never install anything but Windows. But they were forcing manufacturers to have the option to turn it off? Oh no that was the genius of the whole conspiracy...somehow. Of course it all turned out to be nothing, but then they removed the requirement fo
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If Microsoft were this radically changed company, some of their software would actually work in Linux. At least their web browser (I know they have an Alpha that hasn't been making any progress for a year, but all it does for me is say "Error: cannot satisfy dependenies" and seems designed to pretend Linux doesn't work).
Their goal of having Windows "embrace" Linux is to make everything Linux work on Windows so they can extend that by having Microsoft's own software only work on Windows and not Linux. Their
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If Microsoft were this radically changed company, some of their software would actually work in Linux.
VSCode for example works perfectly well as does Teams and even their flagship MSSQL server product.
Their goal of having Windows "embrace" Linux is to make everything Linux work on Windows so they can extend that by having Microsoft's own software only work on Windows and not Linux.
But they have quite a lot of software that does work on Linux, Android, iOS and macOS, they even have quite a lot of w
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If Microsoft were this radically changed company, some of their software would actually work in Linux.
Fuck you're dumb. Have you actually crawled out of your cave and had a look around?
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You're literally living in the 90s
That's the minimum prerequisite for a /. account.
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This comment makes as much sense as the underpants gnomes. I’d love to hear it elaborated.
Re: Microsoft invented the 3 E's (Score:5, Insightful)
Fuck you. Let it fucking die already. This is not the god damn 90s.
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Those whom do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Microsoft has a long history of abusing their monopoly.
Only a fool would not be suspicious of their current actions.
Re:Microsoft invented the 3 E's (Score:4, Interesting)
Embrace
Extend
Extinguish
Indeed they did. ... In a different time, in a different market, facing a different competition, with different leadership, and against a different profit motive. Assuming the actions of the past are relevant in the present without considering if they are even possible or if they even make sense is silly. There are many reasons why this isn't EEE:
- It makes no sense for MS to go after the Linux desktop, a market which frankly is infinitesimally small and not profitable enough to justify the effort.
- It's not possible to go after the Linux desktop like this. What "incompatibility" can MS introduce to the rest of the Linux ecosystem that would make Linux people think "eeh fuck it I'll stick with MS" rather than just giving the the middle finger and going back to Linux?
- It's not at all in line with their recent (past 15 years) history of actually putting zero effort into making their software incompatible with Linux.
- It doesn't remotely make sense in a world where MS profits directly from Linux. Why extinguish the system which costs you nothing but makes you 55% of your Azure profits? Why extinguish a system that costs you nothing but you can easily repackage with your OS bringing users and developers with you? Why put effort into releasing actual Linux versions of several of your more killer programs if your goal is to extinguish?
Another poster said "Fuck you let it die", but it's worth putting some analysis into why this "everything MS does is EEE" meme is actually incredibly stupid on the face of it.
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This new feature of running Linux GUI programs on windows removes an argument you can have with a manger to use Linux desktop. It would go something like this:
Me: I need to use Linux on my desktop because I have to run program XYZ and that is the only way of running XYZ.
Manager: You can now run program XYZ under windows, so you don't need Linux as your desktop.
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I live in the world where I want to use Linux as my desktop OS and my manger does not know about Cygwin.
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This new feature of running Linux GUI programs on windows removes an argument you can have with a manger to use Linux desktop.
In what world do you remotely think MS thinks this is a threat to its revenue? If you're having these arguments with a manager then I highly suspect you're a Windows shop with Windows infrastructure and a per seat license for ever PC you have.
Again your individual case may be relevant to you, but it has zero impact to MS's bottom line and isn't remotely a threat to them. It makes no sense to engage in a many million dollar long term campaign to keep you from having a linux PC at your work, to say nothing of
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Another poster said "Fuck you let it die", but it's worth putting some analysis into why this "everything MS does is EEE" meme is actually incredibly stupid on the face of it.
And yet here we are in 2021 using Windows 10 which reports everything you do to Microsoft and comes pre-rooted for your government's convenience. Don't ask what Windows Defender is reporting to Microsoft concerning your personal files.
Yes. I agree with you. The Microsoft of the 90s is dead and gone. What has replaced it is on level with the STASI.
TL;DR, the reasons for hating Microsoft may have changed but the need for rejection is stronger than ever.
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Cool story. Go rant in someone else's thread. This thread is about the ability for MS to successfully implement an EEE strategy in the 2020s. Do you have an opinion on the matter or can I ask you to kindly GTFO?
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Embrace
Extend
Extinguish
How does that apply to what they are doing with Linux? If they actually did extend it such that things only worked on Windows the only thing they would be extinguishing is the value proposition of WSL:
Hey developers, build and test your apps on Windows, oh but they won't work when you actually want to deploy them.
What would be the point of that?
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What is about to be extinguished here is Win32.
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Microsoft's new Big Thing is Azure. Much of Azure runs Linux. Microsoft wants that Linux development to be a comfortable experience for people with Windows on their desktop. So Extend, yes, but not extinguish. Interestingly they are including Wayland in this, which could, along with Ubuntu having another go with 21.04, be the push it needs. And with how Linux dominates much of computing away from the desktop, it isn't worth Microsoft fighting against Linux, rather make Windows worth spending $100 extra on y
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If this is happening over multiple reboots I would say you are having a problem with a driver or your USB ports are flaky (or PS/2 port if you are still going old school).
I have never seen 30% of mouse clicks being ignored on any of the Windows 10 computers I have used.
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Same here! I was kinda gaslighting myself thinking it was only me that has such problem.
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It’s called arthritis.
Finally (Score:1, Funny)
BUT (Score:2)
Does it allow me to run Overwatch on WINE?
Yes, but (Score:2)
Can Windoze run OS/2 apps?
That would be irony.
Actually, it used to (Score:3)
The original Windows NT had the concept of protected mode subsystems, so it could handle NT, DOS and OS/2 binaries. Similarly, it should be able to handle POSIX as an equal partner to any of the other subsystems. I suspect that OS/2 is no longer supported.
It was a pretty cool idea and I think they could have taken it a lot further.
A.
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I stand enlightened. Ty.
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Unfortunately, WSL 2 is not a protected mode subsystem. While it was originally intended to be one (in WSL 1), MSFT decided to make it a virtual machine running under Hyper-V for WSL2, totally ignoring the concept of Windows NT subsystems.
Sounds Interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Having been forced into a Windows environment for the first time since 1998, I look forward to seeing this in action.
Re: Sounds Interesting (Score:1)
Welcome to this decade rip van
No privacy though (Score:1)
All that telemetry and other private data will still get sent off to MS if you run the Linux subsystem. They get none of it if you just run Linux. My experience is that Linux Blender renders are about 15-20% faster when running on bare metal compared to Windows. Not that Linux is perfect. If I could buy Affinity Photo for Linux, I'd do so as soon as it was released. The FOSS alternatives are... lacking.
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My experience is that Linux Blender renders are about 15-20% faster when running on bare metal compared to Windows.
Wait... You as a Linux fan and telemetry hater are running a fast ring Insider build with all the normal Windows + extra telemetry and even less stability, and were so mad keen on the content that you even bothered to jump in and benchmark Blender all within the day of the release of a system you hate?
Why does your post smell like complete bullshit?
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Believe it or not, I've got a TR build running Ubuntu 20.04 with Blender, Davinci Resolve Studio, and Scrivener under Wine. I do keep a win10 partition around for the occasional foray into Office. Sometimes I run an old copy of Adobe CS6 that's long since paid for, mostly for Ps. Have I benchmarked Blender on Win10 vs Linux? Oh yeah. I have. On CPU renders, it's a good 15-20% faster on Linux for the same render. For GPU (VEGA FE), it's a wash. Though I think the Win10 OpenCL drivers have an edge over AMD's
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For a job to a client? Yup. No problem! I'll even use the spot market to save a few bucks.
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Have I benchmarked Blender on Win10 vs Linux? Oh yeah. I have. On CPU renders, it's a good 15-20% faster on Linux for the same render.
I think I understand you now. In the future when you use the phrase [OS] [Software] runs better bear metal than on [Other OS] the only sane interpretation is that you're comparing native vs emulated version, in this case Windows vs WSL, reinforced by the fact we're talking about emulation.
You should be clearer what you're comparing next time. Yes Blender does run faster on Linux than Windows. Why you think that is relevant to this topic on emulation is beyond me.
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Such pleasant people at /. I wonder what you're like after you loosen up with a few beers. Do you eat children raw?
My comparison was of Linux apps running on the Windows subsystem vs running Linux apps on bare metal. Which strikes me as on topic. But hey, if you don't think so, fine by me.
What's the difference to running an Xserver? (Score:2)
I'm running WSL, and when I need to I launch an Xserver. How will this be different?
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You wouldn't have to run the X server, first and foremost.
Further I don't know about how you might be doing audio, but it looks like they put some effort into that. I've previously played with RDP-to-local system and the latency has been noticeably irritating, but maybe this incarnation does it better?
For me, it's not too interesting, as most graphical linux apps have adequate native Windows versions (except Terminal, even Microsoft's new Terminal isn't as good as Gnome Terminal or Konsole), and what I woul
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You wouldn't have to run the X server, first and foremost.
No shit, sherlock
Re: What's the difference to running an Xserver? (Score:2)
If you install a Windows driver that supports it, and are running Mesa 21 or later, you get GPU acceleration. Plus there is the fact that it just works .. no need for an X server or Pulseaudio.
Just use linux (Score:2)
Ah, but... (Score:2)
does it run Linux?
Can anybody think of a use for this? (Score:2)
As to using Linux GUI for development, notepad++ and VS Studio and VS Code easier to use than the Linux tools.
For those of us that are comfortable with PowerShell and using *nix binaries within the command line and prefer MS windows terminal to GN
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Is it using hardware accelerated graphics? (Score:2)
Is it using hardware accelerated graphics?
The reason I ask is because Hyper-V VGA is not yet accelerated.
Thanks, I'll just keep using Linux. (Score:4, Insightful)
With actual Linux instead of Microsoft's imitation Linux, I get the real experience without the intrusive spyware and monitoring, No thanks, Micro$oft.
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Don't forget less reliability, need for more memory and slower performance. I've had blue screen with windows 10. My PC sure is sad booted into Win 10 for once a month things than it is running Linux Mint
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Don't forget less reliability, need for more memory and slower performance. I've had blue screen with windows 10. My PC sure is sad booted into Win 10 for once a month things than it is running Linux Mint
I've not had a blue screen on Windows for years so I don't know what you're doing wrong. I have however had nothing but a shitload of problems in Linux with audio being passed over HDMI every time I update graphics drivers. Update drivers, oh no audio - set to null device. Dig out list of fixes that usually work, try various ones until we get the sound back, rinse and repeat. I'd take an occassional BSOD from Windows over the shitshow that is audio on Linux any day of the week.
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With actual Linux instead of Microsoft's imitation Linux, I get the real experience without the intrusive spyware and monitoring, No thanks, Micro$oft.
You must have a short memory and forgotten the whole Canonical debacle where Ubuntu did exactly that.
So tempting! (Score:1)
2021... (Score:2)
Big Picture (Score:2)
One word: Cortana. (Score:1)
Some more: DRM kernel (Vista base), telemetry, forced updates/reboots, no customizability, no way to patch anything, or contact the deveopers (for mortals), and nothing to offer over Linuy that isn't the result of monopolism.
Sorry, MS. You lost the driver battle with Linux. And you are currently losing the application battle with ... well... literally everyone else.
Boo-hoo... lol.
I'm now going to chat up the developer of my open-source app and tell him a joke about user-friendliness and support. :)
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Sorry, MS. You lost the driver battle with Linux. And you are currently losing the application battle with ... well... literally everyone else.
Boo-hoo... lol.
I'm now going to chat up the developer of my open-source app and tell him a joke about user-friendliness and support. :)
And yet they're the second largest tech company in the world and Linux has finally increased it's desktop market share in 2020 to just about where Windows XP is in 2020...an OS superceded a decade and a half ago and EOL support 9 years ago. As for user-friendliness Linux and OSS, the vast majority of it is pretty much a shining example of how not to do it as it's full of people who have no clue how to do user interfaces and assholes with attitudes like yours.
Kali Desktop Experience for WSL 2 exists (Score:1)
Win-KeX provides already a solution that doesn't require any X-Server on the Windows system. Simple and efficient!
https://www.kali.org/docs/wsl/... [kali.org]