Microsoft Is Bringing Edge To Linux (venturebeat.com) 143
Krystalo writes: Edge is finally coming to Linux. At Ignite 2020 today, Microsoft announced that Edge for Linux will be available in the Dev preview channel starting in October. Linux users will be able to download the preview from the Microsoft Edge Insider website or from their native Linux package manager. Microsoft will start with the Ubuntu and Debian distributions, with support for Fedora and openSUSE coming afterwards. "Linux stands out in that, while it has a relatively small desktop population in terms of what you might call typical consumer or end user, developers are often overrepresented in that population, and especially in areas like test automation, or CI/CD workloads for their web apps," Edge program manager Kyle Pflug told VentureBeat. "Edge on Linux is a natural part of our strategy to reduce fragmentation and test overhead for web developers. By providing the same rendering behavior and tools across platforms, developers can build and test sites and web apps in their preferred environment and be confident in the experience their customers will have."
And why would anybody sane want that? (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh, right, plenty of not sane people around...
Re: And why would anybody sane want that? (Score:5, Funny)
Did you even read the summary? Jesus, some people. Hereâ(TM)s a summary of the summary, just for the lazy: Itâ(TM)s for devs using Linux to test their sites on Edge so they can verify without having to boot a windows VM.
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Browser-specific sites? Have people learned absolutely _nothing_?
Re: And why would anybody sane want that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Browser-specific sites? Have people learned absolutely _nothing_?
If you don't test on multiple browsers, how will you guarantee your site is not browser-specific?
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welcome to the real world.
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welcome to the real world.
You mean where things get half-assed? I already know that one.
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yes, because by definition anything that doesn't go exactly the way your naive worldview dictates is by definition half-assed.
welcome to the real world. keep coming, you're not quite there yet.
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Well, I can tell you are one of the people that cause a lot more problems than you solve. Because you lack _insight_.
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how can you tell that? because i pointed out how stupid your comments are? need to get a thicker skin, there, bud.
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Nope. I just look at the claims you make. I have seen that pattern before. Remember that part of my job is doing cleanup when some IT "professionals" have messed it up?
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Less browser specific, more browser agnostic.
You code up a site, you think it should work well because you stuck with the standards, and it looks great in Firefox because that's what you have to test. You go live and then Chrome users are complaining something doesn't work right because you accidentally found a Firefox quirk.
And while Edge should be similar to Chrome, it doesn't always mean it is. Also applies to extensions that one may want t
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Nowadays no one *tries* to do browser-specific behaviors.
However, different browsers interpret some standards slightly differently, or there is some combination of standard behaviors that necessarily affect each other, but the standard did not explicitly define the combination of those behaviors, so the browser does *something* (whether explicitly coded or not) that may be different.
So you don't know you have a browser specific site unless you check.
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So Edge is going to wander away from the Chromium "standard" (and I usually that pretty loosely)? If this is just another Internet Explorer 6 waiting to smack devs over the head, then this Edge, like the last Edge, and like IE before it, will just become the unofficial downloader for Chrome.
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that may be, but it's irrelevant. the question was "why would anybody sane want this?" and the answer is obvious and has nothing to do with whether or not edge is close to chrome now or will continue to be. clients want their sites to be tested on the browsers that people use and tools that make that easier are a good thing, yes?
The real question should be "why would anyone sane NOT want this?" (unless they just don't care about cross-browser compatible web development, in which case their comments are just
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Well, I do understand that the people you describe want to stick to their crappy 2nd rated practices that cause problems, problems, and problems. And, you know, cleaning up after these amateurs has earned me a few 100k over the last decade or two. But why do people refuse to do good engineering? Just because it is software?
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spoken like someone who either: has never done any real oftware engineering (beyond toy run-once scripts), is deluded, or lying.
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Neither. But your level of insight is pretty telling.
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Who is the supplier and who is the user. Obviously they are developing their sites to work on mozzila based browsers the by far dominant platform, surely it is up to those greedy lazy fuckers at M$ to make sure their browser works properly and not everyone fucking else to try to make their browser work with their website. Next they will be asking those Linux based developers to start coding edge for free, on wait M$, pay for the privilege to code for edge.
The summary actually makes it worse, from the headli
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People like me who need to do things like run selenium tests against it want this. We are relatively sane, I think.
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Absolutely.
Anyone working in bug triage would welcome this as an additional layer of defense for the simple reality that a percentage of their customers will run Edge.
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If Edge is fully ported including it's IE compatibility mode then this is huge and potentially yet another hurdle to strike off the list for Linux adoption -> corporate websites not working.
Oooh! (Score:5, Funny)
Can they bring over the blue screen of death too?
Re: Oooh! (Score:2)
Depends, do you have functioning audio drivers for your hardware yet?
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Haven't you heard? He's moved on to replacing init now.
Coming next: Windows on Linux! (Score:5, Interesting)
So the next logical step would be to move the Windows ecosystem piece by piece to Linux.
Re:Coming next: Windows on Linux! (Score:5, Funny)
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I guess Microsoft found the right value of Î
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Stupid lack of i18n.... that's supposed to be a "beta" character.
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Well, Microsoft has basically given up on using the Windows NT kernel in their Azure servers and switched to Linux for the Dom0.
They've done no such thing. The majority of Azure instances are very much Windows NT. Linux is a close second, and these stats are completely unchanged. The only thing they've done is provided people the ability to spin up Linux in Dom0 on their hypervisor, nothing more. A small edge case that is unlikely to have any meaningful affect on the overwhelming majority of their cloud servers.
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They've done no such thing.
They are doing that right now. The instances are slowly being migrated from NT on the Dom0 side to Linux. The full migration will take years, due to the scope of Azure, but it has started.
The majority of Azure instances are very much Windows NT.
Nope, not for some time: https://www.zdnet.com/article/... [zdnet.com]
Re:Coming next: Windows on Linux! (Score:5, Interesting)
Even if MS moved fully over to Linux, it's still going to need to maintain the Win32 and Win64 kernels, even if they're sandboxed VMs, for a long time to come. I guess they could throw a lot of money into Wine as well, but one way or another, the Windows APIs are going to have to be maintained. So why abandon the Windows kernel?
This is just about making sure Windows developers, even as they wander into other ecosystems and architectures, stay firmly in the Windows camp. Wouldn't want them doing something truly awful like dropping MS technologies entirely.
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Even if MS moved fully over to Linux, it's still going to need to maintain the Win32 and Win64 kernels, even if they're sandboxed VMs, for a long time to come. I guess they could throw a lot of money into Wine as well, but one way or another, the Windows APIs are going to have to be maintained.
Windows syscalls are actually nicely designed, all the syscall data is packaged into a self-contained memory buffer that is sent to the kernel (with an exception for some memory-heavy calls). So co-hosting a virtualized NT kernel in Linux is pretty straightforward.
So why abandon the Windows kernel?
It's just bad, the scheduler is obsolete, memory management has painted itself into the corner (so no good support for NVM or hugepages is really possible).
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But their mainstream desktop can change rather rapidly.
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Maintaining the Windows kernel as a VM is a lot less effort as you can stop writing new hardware drivers. I don't think Microsoft are planning to do that any time soon except for possibly the Hyper-V Dom-0.
And.... (Score:3)
Re: And.... (Score:2)
I disagree. If youâ(TM)re a web dev using linux and you care about cross-browser fidelity, then this is huge: you no longer have to boot a windows VM in order to test on edge.
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manager: "why is tech support screaming at me telling me that they're inundated with calls where the customers are unable to log onto their bank accounts and pay their bills?"
tech lead: "oh, it's becausedidn't test on Edge, Cid Highwind said it would be ok.."
manager: "you're fired"
some people take responsibility for their work.
I think I'll just nope outa here (Score:2)
If I wanted chrome, I'd install umm Chrome. or one of the forks that aren't controlled by google.
I do have chrome installed, I use it for when I'm forced to use BookFace.
Let their analytics battle to the death.
Finally... (Score:5, Funny)
Edge is finally coming to Linux.
You say that like we've been begging for Edge on Linux...
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Edge is finally coming to Linux.
You say that like we've been begging for Edge on Linux...
Eh... I'd rather have this than Systemd ...
Credit where credit is due (Score:2)
Fill in the blanks (Score:5, Funny)
Edge on Linux is a natural part of our strategy to reduce fragmentation ...
Embrace ... [__________] ... [__________]
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... exterminate ... exhume
What did I win?
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>" Embrace ... [__________] ... [__________]"
Yes, but is it MS or Google or some combination of them both?
Thanks, but no thanks. I will stick with Firefox, which is already free, fast, efficient, and runs on all platforms, but is also open source, community-driven, and standards-based.
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Like "committe-ruled", "community-driven" is a negative, not positive. But the open source part is important. Firefox, Midori, Chromium — whatever I can compile myself, is what I'll use...
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Embrace ... [adopt] ... [profit]
Done. Microsoft doesn't have the market share to extend, nor the market power to extinguish anything related to Linux. Their entire strategy has moved from dominating the world to simply making money off other people's efforts. And considering Azure is their second biggest income, and just shy of half of their cloud instances are Linux based, why would they extinguish?
They are making a shitton of money from Linux.
Call me when... (Score:5, Interesting)
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You left out the best one: OneNote
Possibly the only Microsoft app I ever enjoyed using, before they paved over the UI with a "modern" flat one with fewer features. OneNote = 2016 was slick!
Using Joplin in the mean time because I don't mind writing in Markdown, but OneNote was one of the apps that kept me on Windows beyond its best-before date.
Firefox (Score:2)
Re:Firefox (Score:4, Insightful)
I miss Internet Explorer for Solaris (Score:3)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Actually, at IE 5.0 days it was not all that bad, since Netscape was at that point even worse. Only problem was that the installation seemed to include half of Windows, but it at least worked properly (for it's time).
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I remember Internet Explorer for Solaris. I think you might be one of two people who miss it. The other guy is the poor bastard who ported IE to Solaris.
All I want to know... (Score:2)
...is what did Bono have to say about it?
No. (Score:2)
Just no.
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Why not? Are you a Windows fan wanting Linux to be denied the ability to use a browser with a functional IE compatibility mode and thus providing yet another excuse for people to justify not adopting open source?
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Why not? Are you a Windows fan wanting Linux to be denied the ability to use a browser with a functional IE compatibility mode and thus providing yet another excuse for people to justify not adopting open source?
Is IE compatibility even an issue anymore? And even if it were, what about all the other pieces you'd need to support legacy IE websites?
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Is IE compatibility even an issue anymore?
Yes. I take it you work for a startup or are self employed? You certainly wouldn't be asking that question if you worked even for a medium size company, let alone a large one, or for a government.
Next up (Score:2)
Next up, an Edgebook?
What license? (Score:3)
The summary didn't say what license they were proposing, and the article only had two matches on the term "lice", neither of which was license.
If they put it out under the GPLv3 or the AGPL I might look at it. Perhaps. But I'm quite suspicious of anything from MS.
Chromium (Score:2)
Microsoft brings another Chromium fork to Linux... Who the hell cares?
Embrace, extend, .... (Score:3)
Embrace, extend, stupid-comments (Score:2)
That's the third step. I mean it's actually the second step, what we are actually witnessing is the embrace step followed by ill informed internet comments by people who think they are clever but who seem completely oblivious to the fact that not only is MS not in any position to execute an EEE strategy, but they would also be stupid to do so considering how much they profit from Linux.
As I replied to the other guy: Embrace, Adopt, Profit. That's MS's current strategy. Linux is a huge part of their balance
Finally? (Score:3)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Linux has Chromium forks already, what about... (Score:3)
If there was a wishlist of things for Microsoft to provide for Linux, made by people who use Linux and develop Linux, what would be on it?
Another Chromium fork? Wasn't on my list.
What I actually do have on my list.
Support for git send-email to send via a Microsoft Exchange server, that, like most, has disabled SMTP. I wonder if Microsoft needs to use gmail to send kernel patches out?
Silverlight to html5 translator
Support for protected rendering pathways in the kernel DRM driver
Ability to use a gcc cross-toolchain to compile a working Windows exe on Linux
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Support for git send-email to send via a Microsoft Exchange server, that, like most, has disabled SMTP. I wonder if Microsoft needs to use gmail to send kernel patches out?
Silverlight to html5 translator
Support for protected rendering pathways in the kernel DRM driver
Ability to use a gcc cross-toolchain to compile a working Windows exe on Linux
Lol, those are all useful features that would suck valuable time away from designing new icons for the UI. (Plus, those things sound like work, ewwwwwww.)
C'mon, wouldn't you rather have some cryptic new icons in pastel shades?
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Can't you do that last thing with MinGW?
Edge of usability (Score:2)
Microsoft is always reaching for the Edge trying to get a grip on usability but never quite manages to grab hold.
Ha ha wait (Score:2)
Yeah, I knew this shit was coming, or something very much like it.
It was only a matter of time before MS realized that Linux users are a vast, untapped marketplace for them (at least that's how they see it now). This is the shot across the bow.
Wait until they port MS Office to Linux. You laugh, but most people laughed at the idea of Microsoft Edge on Linux and look where we are now.
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No point porting MS Office anywhere, when the money is in SAAS. They want a foothold in the Linux desktop space, so they can more easily sell SAAS products. What is the biggest Linux based UI platform? Android. But a close second is the Chromebook. A distant third is Linux on PCs. This may really be about the chromebook or MS' clone of such a concept.
IE for Solaris (Score:2)
There was a brief time period where IE for Solaris ran better than Netscape.
The beginning of the 'win' phase (Score:2)
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MS ignored Linux in the 90s. They then laughed at it in 00s. In the 10s they fought it. Now Linux wins.
Linux wins... whilst making Microsoft a shit-ton of money? That's an interesting definition of "winning"...
finally? (Score:2)
You say "finally" like someone is waiting for it...
surveillance capitalism strikes again (Score:2)
I installed Edge and was quite impressed. Couple days later I checked my Pi-hole dashboard and the eavesdropping graphs looked like charts of US COVID stats. Edge was phoning home CONSTANTLY.
deleted.
Considering that Edge came from Linux... (Score:3)
Edge came from Linux in the first place, it is really KHTML. As massaged by Apple, then Google, and now Microsoft. All pretending it's their tech. It is not their tech, it is our tech.
Re:Chromium is already available for linux (Score:5, Interesting)
And here is why it matters - 1.8% share? (Score:5, Interesting)
> Different company providing ads.
So either:
A) Microsoft is porting their desktop stuff to Linux because the 2% of us who use Linux desktops are important for advertising revenue
Or
B) Microsoft is getting tired of paying to maintain their own kernel, when they can instead transition to use a better one for free
You decide which is most likely.
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Have you heard of Windows Subsystem for Linux? It's the exact opposite.
Re:And here is why it matters - 1.8% share? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the exact opposite.
It makes sense as a transition path to Linux. Get Windows administrators used to Linux commands, then the transition to the real thing becomes far less jarring.
Heard of WSL 2? (Score:4, Insightful)
WSL 2 brings the Linux kernel to Windows.
So they went from a legacy Windows kernel to adding rhe Linux kernel and interoperability between the two.
They aren't doing all this stuff on the *Linux* desktop, like porting their browser and Teams to Linux because they are salivating over the 2% of us who run Linux. They are doing Linux desktop because they have a plan that involves Linux for Windows users.
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I suppose the question would be why they feel the need to cater to the minority desktop share for desktop software. Sure SQL Server makes sense to support the popular internet hosting platform, but it's hard to see where Linux Edge fits into things.
Another interesting facet is that given your opinion, the major driver of Server in the internet hosting would have to be simply the licensing complexity. MS chose to shuffle things over to Linux rather than make a platform licensing scenario that is practical fo
Re:Chromium is already available for linux (Score:4, Insightful)
And Edge is chromium.
So wtf is the point?
And Chromium is WebKit. And WebKit is KHTML. And KHTML is khtmlw.
We've had Edge on Linux since 1996. It's about time the Windows world caught up. :-D
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Not really. Chromium is based on Blink, which is a fork of Webkit.
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Not really. Chromium is based on Blink, which is a fork of Webkit.
Which, in turn, is a fork of KHTML [wikipedia.org].
Re:Chromium is already available for linux (Score:5, Insightful)
>"And Chromium is WebKit. And WebKit is KHTML. And KHTML is khtmlw."
Nope. Once Chromium took and modified WebKit, it was no longer WebKit and became Blink. Their code is their own and they control it completely. You can't guarantee compatibility with anything else except the browsers based on it. And now Google is in a position to dictate and control the fate of almost all of the browsers, and it is scary.
Chromium = Chrom*
Chrome = Chrom*
Edge = Chrom*
Brave = Chrom*
Opera = Chrom*
Silk = Chrom*
Torch = Chrom*
Vivaldi = Chrom*
Epic = Chrom*
Samsung Browser = Chrom*
And many others
Actual standards won't matter anymore, because there will be only one major, platform-independent browser not controlled by Google: Firefox. And if we allow Firefox to falter, then kiss any real choice and browser diversity goodbye and welcome in the new "IE-only" world.
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Re:Chromium is already available for linux (Score:5, Interesting)
If you don't know what the point is, you have never used Edge's profile system. It is fantastic when you have to use multiple identities across many websites and gives you an almost unlimited number of fully isolated InPrivate windows.
Re:Chromium is already available for linux (Score:5, Funny)
I just can't see the appeal of whacking off while staring into a Microsoft product, but hey, whatever floats your boat....
Re:Chromium is already available for linux (Score:4, Interesting)
Ya, because MS wouldn't think to radio your "identities" back to the mothership.
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Edge has an IE compatibility mode, so this is potentially huge.
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No I'm not which is why I said "potentially" huge. I hope so. It would be yet another nail in the excuse of "but I need to use Windows because I can't do {insert excuse here}"
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I honestly can't imagine any reason I would. If I was doing web development, I guess it would make sense, just to make sure that things functioned correctly in Edge (worst case scenario, in case MS does something that breaks Edge compatibility with Chromium). But I have no desire to run MS browsers, there's nothing there that I find compelling, and it is, after all, just a branded Chromium browser, so why not just stick with Chromium?