Linux Mint 20 is 64-bit Only, Based on Ubuntu 20.04, and Named 'Ulyana' (betanews.com) 84
An anonymous reader shares a report: Today, we learn some new details about the upcoming Linux Mint 20. While most of the newly revealed information is positive, there is one thing that is sure to upset many Linux Mint users. First things first, Linux Mint 20 will be based on the upcoming Ubuntu 20.04. This shouldn't come as a surprise, as Mint only uses Long Term Support versions of Ubuntu, and 20.04 will be an LTS. We also now know the name of Linux Mint 20. The Mint team always uses female names, and this time they chose "Ulyana." This is apparently a Russian name meaning "youthful." So far, all of the news is positive, so what exactly will upset some users? The Linux Mint developers are finally dropping 32-bit support and will only produce 64-bit ISOs.
32 bit (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone out there with a 15 year old CPU I have some upgrade instructions. Drive around on trash day and you'll find an upgrade.
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Bérenger: No, Gregor, I meant a Rhinocerous!
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Also, running 15 year old computers is a terrible waste of human time and electricity.
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Modern software is also a waste of time.
Re:32 bit (Score:5, Insightful)
Not all tasks require the latest, fastest processor. A lot of today's tasks could be run on an 8-bit CPU from the 1980's. Electricity can be produced from renewable sources.
Disposing and properly recycling a 15 year old computer takes a lot of time and a lot of energy too.
This post was sent from a 2010 Mac mini which I still use as my main computer. It's not 15 years old, but it does use an Intel Core2 Duo CPU (the P8600) that was launched in 2008. It's old, not obsolete.
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Electricity can be produced from renewable sources.
Electricity is fungible. So even if your electricity comes from renewable sources, you are diverting from other dirtier sources.
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... you are diverting from other dirtier sources.
Maybe. Not definitely.
And, in cooler seasons, it simply goes into heating a room, which might otherwise be heated by fossil fuel burning.
And what's a typical computer consuming, 50W average, maybe? Laptop maybe 20W?
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This post was sent from a 2010 Mac mini which I still use as my main computer. It's not 15 years old, but it does use an Intel Core2 Duo CPU (the P8600) that was launched in 2008. It's old, not obsolete.
And it is also 64 Bit.
In fact, AFAICT, only the first-generation of Intel Macs (2006) were equipped with 32-bit only Core CPUs:
https://lowendmac.com/2006/cor... [lowendmac.com]
After that, all Intel Macs had 32/64 bit Core2Duos or better.
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The problem is memory. It is hard to have more then 4GBs (and even to have 4GBs) of ram on a C2D and 64 bit software eats that much more ram.
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Is it really? My 2010 Mac mini has 16GB of RAM.
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You're lucky, all the C2D's I've had used DDR2 ram with a maximum of 8GB's and the 2GB modules needed to fill it up are/were rare and expensive. Never had a Mac and ran C2D's up to recently for budget reasons.
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Not all tasks require the latest, fastest processor. A lot of today's tasks could be run on an 8-bit CPU from the 1980's.
And they can also run on a 32-bit Atmel or similar, for a tiny fraction of the power. Unless you're doing it as a hobby project, it makes no sense whatsoever to run computer hardware more than about a decade old, newer stuff is so much smaller and more efficient. Even if you want to run software that requires older hardware and/or OS, it's almost certainly going to be better to run it on an emulator on modern hardware.
This post was sent from a 2010 Mac mini which I still use as my main computer. It's not 15 years old, but it does use an Intel Core2 Duo CPU (the P8600) that was launched in 2008. It's old, not obsolete.
If you're running MacOS, it's obsolete because you can't get updates for the OS any more
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A lot of today's tasks could be run on an 8-bit CPU from the 1980's.
Those same tasks today can be run on an modern 8-bit CPU and run the entire year on a coin-cell. We don't produce electricity from reliable sources. Saying we can is completely irrelevant, no... let me rephrase... it's dishonest and socially damaging.
Reduce is the primary way we should be treating energy, not hoping some fairy will magic 10000 windfarms into existence.
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Since our electricity is primarily from hydro dams in Québec and Ontario, it's still cleaner for the environment to keep using older computers than it is to barely half-assed recycle it and buy a new one. Sure the case of my Mac mini is a big chunk of aluminium, but the electronics inside are not easy/impossible to recycle 100% and making more of them is a dirty process too. It's not like the 1980's either, where computers were literally twice as fast every two or three years.
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Sure. And I could do math on a slide rule too. There' no reason why I would actually DO That, however.
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Tell that to banks and the military. (Score:3, Informative)
Who are still mission critical running systems from the 60s and 80s.
Because you just don't replace a running system holding some huge national debts or the ICBM control core or whatever.
Of course they run proper Unix or even older mainframe OSes, and no systemd is allowed in a six ... mile radius, for security reasons. :)
And you'd be lucky if they were even 32-bit with 8-bit bytes!
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Who are still mission critical running systems from the 60s and 80s. Because you just don't replace a running system holding some huge national debts or the ICBM control core or whatever.
Actually the hardware for national debts is likely upgraded many times since the 60s. Seamless migration is one of those features you pay $$$ for on the mainframe. Embedded "do one thing" systems like an ICBM core... sure. They probably don't even run an OS in the normal sense of the word, as in it probably doesn't do any scheduling or resource sharing or whatever just a bit of abstraction for a single process that owns everything, all the time.
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tic tac toe number of players = 0
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It's almost certain banks are not running primary hardware from the 1960's or even 1980's---the manufacturers have long since dropped hardware support and replacement parts are unavailable. The legacy operating systems & applications are virtualized and running on much more modern hardware.
If people paid the Linux Mint team $10 million a year to keep 32 bit support, then it would be kept.
Re:32 bit (Score:5, Insightful)
Old computers are not really the issue here, the issue is old software. Will it be able to run 32-bit x86 code. Presumably yes, as long as you install the right packages.
For instance, we've got some 32-bit software that has not been properly ported to 64-bit, or thoroughly tested. Network protocol where developers inexperienced with portability decided that sending raw C structs over-the-air was fine, and backwards compatibility must be retained. No one's been clamoring for 64-bit so far except in some security cases, but for some people on 64-bit linux there's a bit of scrambling to get the right packages so that the program can run.
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Unless you need 32-bit kernel, 32-bit userland continues working just fine.
With recent CPUs -- both because of vulnerabilities and features -- running a 32-bit kernel should be a shootable offense. And for driving pre-2004 hardware, you're better off using an ancient computer and ancient software, as drivers for that old thing you need it for have been unmaintained for so long there's no way they've been validated against modern stacks.
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Unless you need 32-bit kernel, 32-bit userland continues working just fine
I hope so, because that's not the case on Macs starting with Catalina. It simply does not run 32-bit apps at all.
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This is honestly one of the big advantages of FOSS over closed-source commercial software; as long as the itch exists for someone out there with some coding skills, there'll still be some way to get something working in Linux. With MacOS, you're at the mercy and whims of the single corporation run by MBA's rather than technical people. What that means is that when something's no longer cost-effective to maintain it's going to get unceremoniously dropped and there's literally nothing you can do about it. App
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That's seriously causing us concern, because new Macs come with Catalina by default and you're unable to downgrade them. So now when a worker's Mac starts to fail, they get a replacement 2015 Macbook. Probably going to have to either migrate to a Windows laptop with a VM to do work in, or a Linux laptop with a VM to do enterprise stuff in.
Re:32 bit (Score:4, Insightful)
Perfectly good Pentium M laptop here that still runs plenty of stuff, why fix what ain't broken?
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And if you have to upgrade to a 64-bit OS, there's a workaround for the Pentium M not having PAE. I had some Dell laptops with that CPU.
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While you're right about having to force PAE, which the Pentium M has without admitting it, they don't do 64bit. I still use a T42, great laptop
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Yeah, I've got a tiny Pentium M Acer Aspire running Linux Mint Sylvia XFCE desktop; only uses 256M of 4G RAM once booted. Bought in 2014, still works great as an on-the-go OpenVPN WiFi browser (at least back in the days when I was still able to leave the house.) Oh well, guess I'll have to move to one of the 32-bit distros eventually, fortunately there's still plenty of them out there.
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It's illegal around here to throw a computer in the trash and I haven't seen one in years. It's a shame the recycling depot doesn't allow people to help themselves.
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It's a shame the recycling depot doesn't allow people to help themselves.
Yeah, what's up with that? Reusing is much much better environmentally. Any idea why they won't let you take stuff?
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Probably security with all the hard drives that the owners didn't properly wipe, if they wiped at all.
It's a shame as I bet there are some fairly new computers that only need cleaned. Picked one up somewhere else once for my son, it was packed solid with dust as well as the drive full of malware. A good blowing and reformatting and he used it for years.
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Raspberry Pi's (3b+ and below at least) are 32bit by the way. Yea 64 bit CPU, but 32 bit OS. I learnt that the hard way getting MariaDB docker to work the other day.
Gentoo? (Score:1)
Hi hardy doubt that is a problem of Linux, is it? More like one of Ubuntu.
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afaik, the only thing raspbian shares with ubuntu is that they're both debian-based.
there is a beta 64-bit kernel for raspbian, but the reason 64-bit is lagging is simply that raspberry pi foundation considers it low-priority.
in fact even ubuntu offers a 64-bit image for armv7,8 raspis.
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there's a beta 64-bit kernel for raspbian which may solve your docker problems; idk. https://www.raspberrypi.org/fo... [raspberrypi.org]
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Fuck, buy a Raspberry PI. It's still less than Windows.
You realize that one of those is Hardware and the other is Software, and that those are different types things -- right? It's kind of like comparing the cost of apples vs. the cost of oranges -- or, more specifically, the cost of hardware vs. the cost of software.
games (Score:2)
Re:games (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite, 32bit libs will still be available for stuff like Wine and Steam (there was a big stink about exactly this months ago), its just a 32bit kernel that won't.
On Gentoo, ... (Score:1)
there were compatibility libraries, a ... decade ago, so everything was 64 bits, and that shitty 32-bit software did pull in those compatibility libs.
That was when I learned that Mozilla is a Windows hack developers shop, and not to be considered competent developers.
Canonical considered dropping 32-bit libs (Score:4, Informative)
there were compatibility libraries, a ... decade ago, so everything was 64 bits, and that shitty 32-bit software did pull in those compatibility libs.
At some point, Canonical threatened to withdraw maintenance of the compatibility libraries [slashdot.org] needed to run 32-bit applications on a 64-bit kernel in favor of running the 32-bit applications in Wine in Ubuntu 18.04 LTS in an LXD container. Canonical backtracked on this a few days later [slashdot.org].
32 bit packages available? (Score:2)
If 32-bit support is completely dropped, and 32-bit packages become unavailable, that would break Wine. So in order to keep Wine around, you still need to ship the 32-bit packages that Wine depends on.
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Linux Mint is 64-bit only*.
* For sufficiently loose definitions of “64-bit”
Re:32 bit packages available? (Score:5, Informative)
he Linux Mint developers are finally dropping 32-bit support and will only produce 64-bit ISOs.
(emphasis mine)
I didn't see anything in the article or on Mint's own announcement [linuxmint.com] that would indicate if multilib support is removed from the 64-bit only release. My assumption is that if a major component is not mentioned, then it hasn't been removed.
With multilib that lets you have some 32-bit libraries and means you can run wine32 on an otherwise 64-bit platform. (wine can run 64-bit applications as well, and doesn't need 32-bit libraries to do so)
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If I hadn't already posted I would mod your post up. What you said so clearly is what I was trying to say in my post. Thank you for stating it so clearly. Mods please mod the parent up.
Ulyana (Score:3)
Doesn't mean youthful, it's just the Russian version of Juliana
Re:Ulyana (Score:5, Informative)
....which means "youthful"
"It is of Latin origin, and the meaning of Juliana is "youthful; Jove's child". Feminine of Julius or Julian."
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More like "of the Iulia family"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
Re: Ulyana (Score:2)
Except Julius actually means downy-bearded. It's corrupted in its feminine form as "youthful", but that's not really what it means. I would translate Juliana as "fuzzy girl".
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It's corrupted in its feminine form as "youthful", but that's not really what it means.
When you say something is "corrupted" but you're talking about old-latin then unfortunately that's what it really means. Kind of like how we lost the war on poor English when "lol" was put into the Oxford dictionary.
Re: Ulyana (Score:1)
And Juliana doesn't mean "youthful"??
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Not Ulyana in Russian sense. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin) is much more meaning-saturated,
32-bit library support different from 32-bit ISO (Score:5, Informative)
Dropping 32-bit ISOs and 32-bit kernels is totally fine, and no one would argue against that and hardly anyone uses them. A 64-bit kernel on supported hardware can run both 32-bit and 64-bit binaries. Dropping support entirely for 32-bit binaries and libraries, on the other hand, could be troublesome for some users who run Wine. Fedora and RHEL/CentOS have been 64-bit only for years now, but have a selection of 32-bit rpms that can be installed to support older binaries, or special programs like Wine. I expect Mint, like Ubuntu, will continue to do the same thing.
There was a lot of FUD circulating back when Ubuntu wanted to drop 32-bit support. The controversy wasn't that Ubuntu was dropping 32-bit ISOs, but rather Ubuntu wanted to drop all 32-bit packages entirely, which was a bit silly at the time. Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and Ubuntu continues to support some 32-bit packages (and thus 32-bit software) on their 64-bit distro.
And you can easily have a 64-bit clean install by simply not installing any 32-bit debs.
The article is vague on the topic, and I'm sure the author is thinking about the Ubuntu controversy without actually understanding what a 64-bit distro is different from the idea of dropping support for 32-bit programs.
The real world still uses 32 bit (Score:4)
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How much 32-bit Linux software out there, unless its proprietary 32 bit software, can't be recompiled as 64 bit? And so far as I know, Debian is still supporting multilib. No one is being left out in the cold here.
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How much 32-bit Linux software out there, unless its proprietary 32 bit software, can't be recompiled as 64 bit?
Probably not much by now. But there's still a lot of demand for the ability to run games and other proprietary 32-bit software that has no viable replacement under a free software license.
"real world" ... you mean the *Microsoft* world! (Score:2)
It's only the Microsoft hacks who are dragging their feet. Everyone else has moved on, a *decade* ago!
Oh, and you're not running a desktop toy like systemd/Gnome/Ubuntu/Mint or Windows on an embedded system anyway, if you are sane.
Nor do you use legacy 32-bit crapware with Windows-compatibility scabs on embedded systems.
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I can't believe the amount of software still out in the wild that relies on Internet Explorer and all the weird (and often fantastically insecure) ActiveX components that go along with it. People bitch and gripe when an OS manufacturer/distributor/packager forces everyone on to a new platform, and yet the alternative is that lazy developers end up getting a seemingly endless lifeline for 10 or heck even 20 year old software.
Microsoft being forced to one extent or another to support legacy software may have
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IBM can run System/360 binaries (which was introduced in 1964!!) unmodified on z-series mainframes today.
No entirely true.
For example, binaries using either the CICS macro level interface or OS/VS COBOL (or earlier) won't run in modern CICS/TS (unless you buy 3-rd party emulator software).
Only 20 long years ... (Score:1)
When were the last 32 bit desktops and servers replaced? 2003 (Athlon 64) + 5-7 years = 2008-2010?
What took them so long?
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It didn't take so long. 64-bit Linux distros have been widely used for at least 10 years now, ever since 64-bit processors were available. In fact I used a 64-bit Linux desktop nearly 15 years ago. Granted that was on a DEC Alpha, but still. ]
You and others act like this is some long-overdue milestone, except that it's not a milestone. We've had 64-bit mint since, well, the beginning of mint.
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Edit. Make that closer to 20 years. It was RedHat 6.2 if I recall correctly. 64-bit Alpha.
Checking back in... (Score:3, Interesting)
Checks back in on Mint.
Still systemd only.
Checks back out.
Honestly, it reminds me of Firefox. I was a fervent user of it, until they changed things enough to lose me. And they haven't won me back yet.
I loved Mint for many years, until I started having issues. After a few releases - fresh installs every time, and even on new hardware - I determined it had to do with the adoption of systemd. And I couldn't figure out a way to stop it. I switched to Devuan, and have been there ever since.
It's a shame, I really liked Mint. But as Clem confirmed in a blog post comment several years ago, it wasn't their choice to move to systemd. They had to because Ubuntu did. And honestly, if I didn't have persistent issues, I probably would have stuck with it.
But since installing Devuan, the issues I had previously are gone. I am happy with Devuan, but right now it's one of my only choices. I've looked at MX-19, but I have no reason to leave Devuan yet. It's always good to have choice.
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--Check out antix as well, it's related to MX and systemd-free
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Checks back in on Mint.
Still systemd only.
Checks back out.
Not sure why you bothered checking in at all. A distro which adopted Systemd is not going to drop it. They adopted it for a reason and that reason was it was good for their maintainers and as perceived their users.
You're not a minority in need of a niche distro. Don't bother looking at mainstream.
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Checks back in on Mint.
Still systemd only.
Checks back out.
Not sure why you bothered checking in at all. A distro which adopted Systemd is not going to drop it. They adopted it for a reason and that reason was it was good for their maintainers and as perceived their users.
You're not a minority in need of a niche distro. Don't bother looking at mainstream.
Again for clarification, from the words of Clem who maintains it - they adopted it because Ubuntu did, they didn't have a choice. They are a downstream of Ubuntu. I'm hopeful there will still be a Mint that is systemd free, so it is worth checking back in when they put out new releases. It wasn't that big of an investment to check back in and read the release announcement. And never say never! They did revive LMDE, so maybe they would decide to release LMDevuanE?
There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition! (Score:4, Interesting)
There's also LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) which is Mint's desktop environment running on Debian's packages:
https://www.linuxmint.com/down... [linuxmint.com]
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I don't see this being an issue really (Score:2)
Mint is not designed to be an ultra light weight distro. For the systems it's intended to run on, support only for 64 bit hardware is not a big deal. Any computer made in the last 12 years would run mint without issue.
so what exactly will upset some users? (Score:2)
You really had to ask?
Self-entitled whiners... (Score:2)
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slightly ot (Score:1)
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Not to start a systemd flame war, but ignoring some past blundres, as of today, are there realy any major real drawbacks to systemd compared to sysvinit or is the apparent systemd hate just outdated sour grapes?
No, and yes.
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