Red Hat Gives Ceylon To The Eclipse Foundation (eclipse.org) 97
An anonymous reader writes:
Some media outlets called Ceylon an attempted "Java killer" when Gavin King first unveiled his secret two-year development project in 2011. In 2013 Red Hat finally released version 1.0 of the modern, modular statically-typed programming language for the Java and JavaScript virtual machines. After another four years, "Ceylon has a small but very active and enthusiastic community of developers and users, and indeed is the fruit of the hard work of a large number of contributors over the years," says a project proposal page at Eclipse.org seeking "to further grow our community... a key strategy to achieve that would be to move Ceylon from Red Hat to a vendor-neutral foundation."
That project has now been approved, and the "Eclipse Ceylon" project has been created. It includes the Ceylon distribution and its SDK, plus the Java2Ceylon converter and the Ceylon Herd project's server (and related services) for Ceylon module sharing. There's also three IDEs (and their code-formatting and functionality-sharing modules).
Back in 2011 InfoWorld predicted that instead of becoming a Java killer, "it is more likely Ceylon will join a growing list of new languages resting atop the JVM, while the Java language and platform will continue on as staples of enterprise computing."
That project has now been approved, and the "Eclipse Ceylon" project has been created. It includes the Ceylon distribution and its SDK, plus the Java2Ceylon converter and the Ceylon Herd project's server (and related services) for Ceylon module sharing. There's also three IDEs (and their code-formatting and functionality-sharing modules).
Back in 2011 InfoWorld predicted that instead of becoming a Java killer, "it is more likely Ceylon will join a growing list of new languages resting atop the JVM, while the Java language and platform will continue on as staples of enterprise computing."
Re: (Score:1, Interesting)
Java 8 addressed most of the bullshit those language were all trying to provide anyways. That's why it's stupid to waste years making some Java replacement on the JVM since by the time you finish the next Java version will be out and make your whole shit pointless. Hey, let's make a whole new language because Java doesn't have this One Thing. Oh crap, Java N+1 now has that One Thing, shit.
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1. If you want to make a Java class with 6 different fields that are set in the constructor and then final, with idiomatic Java syntax that's 16 lines of code. If you follow Java convention and make getters for the 6 fields you're up to 34. Scala, Kotlin, and Ceylon have things like a Scala case class or equivalent to handle it one line.
2. Java 8 does better with language literals for constructing lists, sets, and ma
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If all other things are equal between two languages, a developer will be more productive in the one that lets them accomplish more in fewer LOC without sacrificing readability. So just to be crystal clear, I'm not advocating you compare, say, idiomatic Java with obfuscated Perl that uses every Perl 5 implicit variable abbreviation trick in the book. That Perl may do twenty t
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import java.util.List;
import java.util.Arrays; (or equivalently but not recommended, import java.util.*;)
List<Integer> nums = Arrays.asList(1,2,3,4);
or
java.util.List<Integer> nums = java.util.Arrays.asList(1,2,3,4);
Most other languages have literal syntax for lists, sets, etc... by default, and you don't have to waste your time with imports to use data structures that 70% of your source files will include anyway.
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I think this is precisely the reason for Red Hat to hand Ceylon over to the Eclipse Foundation. Ceylon and Kotlin are the two biggest competitors in that sweet spot of "nicer Java". Kotlin becoming the quasi-standard for Android development is a huge blow to Ceylon. I'm just not sure if Red Hat handing the torch to the EF means they are hoping it will give the language some momentum, or if it means they are conceding defeat and dropping it, letting someone else clean up the pieces.
I guess it's a bit of both
Elephant in the Room? (Score:1)
JetBrains is a Russian Company. How long before they are side-lined like Kapersky? What will that mean for Kotlin adoption/support? I guarantee you you will not be able to use Kotlin on any government project.
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Comparing apples to oranges... JetBrains is a Russian Company, but Kotlin is an open source project on GitHub. Also a programming language is not as sensitive security-wise as an actual security software suite, obviously. I would also wager that JetBrains is not in the big business of government contracts anyhow. Even if any government decided to boycott them, it probably wouldn't even register on their radar.
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My language will have 0 questions on Stackoverflow, because everything will be so intuitive and the documentation will be so excellent that there will be no need for even a novice to ask for help.
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But does lstlisting support your language in latex?
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Damn, you've found the one weakness in my language. I guess I'll have to scrap the whole thing and start over, oh well, what's yet another programming language on the pile?
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I know. mathchat and PILOT lost out to the same deficiency.
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You mention languages as being hyped and then mention that people want other languages and give a list of more hyped languages.
People don't use Swift or Go or Rust, nobody uses it as a serious alternative to the established C/C++, Java. People by and large don't even want to use Python/C# if they were starting from scratch.
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I can see that Mozilla is getting better at writing programs... Firefox now takes up only 1.2GB of RAM.
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Yeah - what's the point of having 16GB of RAM if applications are going to use it? I want my browser to use as little RAM as possible so that when I flick to an old tab it doesn't have it cached, it has to fetch and re-render the whole thing.
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That varies by county and usage.
C/C++ is pretty dead, mainly only used in embedded environments and as system languages for the OS.
Swift obvioulsy is strong on Macs and iOS, I wonder why you miss that.
Rust is growing in the Mozilla world.
Python is very strong in scientific data processing, e.g. climate research (processing in the sense of transforming formats and doing low level aggregations stuff, not in the sense of models)
C# is relatively strong in relation to Java in UK and USA, Germany and France are m
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C/C++ is pretty heavily used for pretty much every interpreted language, most Python libraries are written in C/C++, pretty much every large project (think Apache, Linux, Windows, BSD (including Mac and iOS), Java, SAP, OracleDB, Chrome, etc. - every engine of sorts, from browsers to games are written in C or C++.
Swift has grown but is not nearly as ubiquitous as Apple makes it out to be, you can't replace 30 years of work in barely half a decade. Many frameworks are still either Objective-C and I find an a
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You mention languages as being hyped and then mention that people want other languages and give a list of more hyped languages.
People don't use Swift or Go or Rust, nobody uses it as a serious alternative to the established C/C++, Java. People by and large don't even want to use Python/C# if they were starting from scratch.
Dude, people are moving away from Objective-C to Swift for new development in the iPhone area, and Kotlyn has some serious usage in Android. I'm in South Florida, not a hot market like the Bay Area, and here I'm seeing large companies using Go for platform development.
I don't see people moving away from Java on the enterprise, nor C/C++ in systems programming. But there are other areas where some (not all) new languages are seeing heavy use.
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I think Ceylon will fade into oblivion just because it's so late to the space. I like the language features, I think it could be a better Kotlin.
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If you want to see a good illustration of Java's speed, look at the Techempower benchmarks. In some cases Java still has the performance lead over C++. Only in one or two benchmarks does C++ have a substantial lead, and even then it's not even a 2x advantage.
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Check out the Great Computer Language Shootout Game, or the Techempower framework benchmarks.
Is it the language or Slashdot... (Score:2)
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Can you provide an Amazon referral link to a book about Neo-Nazis?
On my reading list is "Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich" [amzn.to] by Norman Ohler and translated by Shaun Whiteside. Nazi Germany was strung out on amphetamines when they started WW2. It wouldn't surprise me if Neo-Nazis were meth heads and/or drug traffickers.
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Affiliate link me harder wide boy.
Anti-Monkey Diaper Rash Cream [amzn.to] is what you need.
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Yeah, a paywalled link is really meaningful to 99% of us.
What's the fallback plan for Rust? (Score:1)
This situation raises a good point: what's the fallback plan for Rust, when it comes a time when Mozilla can't or won't support it any longer? Will it be given to the Apache Foundation, for example, and left to rot? Will the community even be able to sustain it? Will individuals and companies that used it be screwed?
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At least in xcode you can upgrade your code, it does a pretty decent job. Or just select the older version of the compiler.
Yet another Java Killer lang ... dead ? (Score:2)
Re:Yet another Java Killer lang ... dead ? (Score:4, Interesting)
You mean like .NET?
Yes this is slashdot which views MS as the devil, but c#.net is what Java could have been if it were not for Sun Microsystems ineptitude and managerial incompetence.
I hate Oracle more than Microsoft and view Oracle as the number one threat to open source. Not Microsoft as they have just released .NET core 2.0 to open source and are now being friendly to other platforms.
Anyway I wish Redhat would have bought Java and made native compilers with native heavyweight gui methods but who am I kidding?
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I would like MS to make a Linux distro. It couldn't be any worse than Debian or Fedora or any other Linux distro that uses systemd, which I find are buggier and lower quality than even Windows ME was. If they made a reliable, systemd-free Linux distro, I'd seriously consider using it, and I might even consider paying for it were it good enough. If they bundle .NET Core and make it work seamlessly, I'd be very interested in using it.
I don't know if this is a troll but they kind of do. Ubuntu for Windows is Ubuntu without SystemD .... but runs on Windows :-/
Not a real option but cute toy thing to run some scripts. ALso .NET core 2.0 was just released and does run on Linux. I always preferred FreeBSD if I have do unix like stuff. I find handbook and docs amazing and a step ahead of Linux which tries to make gui and friendly tools to do things behind the scenes. FreeBSD has great long term support and even features lacking in Linux or are
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You should review Oracle open source contributions and compare to those made by Microsoft before talking about "threats".
About c#, well, I think it's the other way around as it was designed as a Java clone when the justice ruled 15 years ago that "Microsoft's Java" could not have Java in the name. They only left one feature off when implementing it: cross-platformness.
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You should review Oracle open source contributions and compare to those made by Microsoft before talking about "threats".
About c#, well, I think it's the other way around as it was designed as a Java clone when the justice ruled 15 years ago that "Microsoft's Java" could not have Java in the name. They only left one feature off when implementing it: cross-platformness.
The reason I typed that is Oracle just made WINE and SAMBA a potential liability and illegal in their lawsuit agaisn't Android. What Google did was use a clean room implementation of Java by the Apache project. NO SOURCE CODE FROM ORACLE was used. Oracle sued saying they owned the API meaning for example if I write a book and you write one I can say I own your book because we both used the word "the"?!
So now MariaDB can be killed even if all the MySQL code is removed. Linux and FreeBSD would not exist anymo
Re: Yet another Java Killer lang ... dead ? (Score:1)
I have some vague recollections that, some implementation files (not headers) looked ah identical, some people argued it's the obvious implementation others it was lifted. To me it looked that it was heavenly inspired by someone that read the source
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I have some vague recollections that, some implementation files (not headers) looked ah identical, some people argued it's the obvious implementation others it was lifted. To me it looked that it was heavenly inspired by someone that read the source
Then all of SQL should be banned likely someone else wrote it first. Wine should be banned as they do use the same implementation (not same files). Regardless it was a clean room implementation and no files were copied similiar with the Sco scandal a decade ago who tried to pull the same thing on Linux.
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Well, .Net one.
as far as I can tell the Java eco system s much more mature than the
And comments in XML (as in C#) who's brain dead idea was that?
and made native compilers with native heavyweight gui methods but who am I kidding?
And gone would be cross platform.
Anyway, if you need something like that, there are plenty of Java to native code compilers, just google a bit (Avian e.g.) and you can use SWT (oh chudder) as native GUI ... you pervert.
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Comments are not in XML. Comments are just plain old comments with // or /*
You can use XML markup for inline documentation, for the purpose of extracting it to create API documentation. You shouldn't be using the XML markup for comments.
Re: Yet another Java Killer lang ... dead ? (Score:3)
It was the style at the time.
I don't care that it's XML. You just type /// and it pops up ready to fill out.
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Then you can't tell much. They are certainly on par, with .NET being well ahead in some ares and Java in others.
Yours, it just came straight out of your ass. Don't know of anyone else who's heard of it.
Reality: C# and .NET is now years ahead of Java in most aspects. They are also fully cross platform and open source. Even the C# compiler infrastructure is cross platform
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Doc comments in C# are in XML ... probably you never document your code.
Reality: C# and .NET is now years ahead of Java in most aspects.
Any example?
They are also fully cross platform and open source.
They are not. No GUI or network library, for iOS, Android or Linux or mac OS.
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Anyway I wish Redhat would have bought Java and made native compilers with native heavyweight gui methods but who am I kidding?
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We had native, heavyweight components in Java (the original AWT), but they caused major maintenance and cross-platform behavior problems. Swing was the answer, and is far superior.
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Anyway I wish Redhat would have bought Java and made native compilers with native heavyweight gui methods but who am I kidding?
Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We had native, heavyweight components in Java (the original AWT), but they caused major maintenance and cross-platform behavior problems. Swing was the answer, and is far superior.
IT SUCKED? Shoot I remember at Manhattan community college sitting on a Pentium III 450 mhz beast (expensive at the time and very shiny and new wishing I had something that good at home) and making a Hello World in AWT. 1 minute to load?! No really 1 freaking minute while the disk spun for eternity. Lord can you imagine a complex program like Quicken load on such machines written in java??
It was dark and hard to read on the 14 inch monitors at the time with a different font and button style than Windows NT
Well Billy ... (Score:1)
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Re: Well Billy ... (Score:2)
Xamarin uses c# for cross-platform ios/Android apps. It's a mature and popular mobile app platform. Note that neither ios or android are windows :)
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>Since almost 20 years, there are so much "Java Killer" touted languages that died and other that are dead-alive experiencing NDE. Meanwhile, Java is still there and kicking ...
Old languages that are a problem (in that they are crap, but lots of people are invested in it continuing) can exist in a Wiley- Coyote-over-cliff state for many decades. Like a black hole, ultimately doomed, but the process of shedding mass is so slow that it's hardly worth waiting for it - just ignore it and stay away if you hav
Re: Yet another Java Killer lang ... dead ? (Score:1)
Why is eclipse accepting it, they want to be the grave yard of projects with no community.
At least do the incubation period thing and dump it if a community doesn't materialize
Re:Not going to invest my time (Score:4, Insightful)
Kind of like Microsoft's embrace-extend-extinguish, I think the Linux community has made a big mistake to give Red Hat that much control with Systemd.
Actually Microsoft has done an IBM like about face with open source and standards. I dare say they're even not evil anymore as they lost to Android and open standards from what I see so far.
Oracle and Redhat have done most damage. I hate Java now which I was a fan last decade. Sun ruined it and Oracle made a pact with the devil.
Who favors copyrighting whole freaking APIs? Oracle. Who has sued open source developers? Oracle. Who buys and forks things like MySQL? Oracle. Who changes standards? Redhat. Who makes things unpredictable when changing standards? Redhat.
Now who has opensourced proprietary APIs like .NET core? Microsoft. Who contributes to Freebsd and Linux for their VMs and adds provisioning for them in their cloud? Microsoft. Who has made their once proprietary development software and added Android vm and iOS support? Microsoft.
I think in 2017 we can safely say changing and extinguish standards is not Microsoft but Oracle and Redhat! I am not a fan boy nor work for MS. Just am frustrated and prefer not to live in the past anymore as Java is a could have been
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"Who favors copyrighting whole freaking APIs? Oracle. "
Who filed an amicus brief in support of them? Microsoft.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-foresees-chaos-if-google-v-oracle-result-stands/
Sorry to burst your bubble, but they aren't on the side of the angels just yet.
CAPTCHA: absolve
Re:Not going to invest my time (Score:5, Insightful)
They're the "angels" who are suing every Androind phone manufacturer and people using FAT32 in their products.
MS has only open sourced server-related stuff and integrated Linux stuff so you rent servers on Azure. Not because they're OSS-friendly (they're NOT!) but because it's gonna make them lots of money, and that this cloud thing is their new main revenue source.
It sure looks like they got you fooled...
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> Actually Microsoft has done an IBM like about face with open source and standards. I dare say they're even not evil anymore [...]
Microsoft is as evil these days as it ever was.
- Who issued developer tools which injected telemetry into binaries, phoning home *to Microsoft*?
- Who is pushing hard through lobby groups to lure schools into Tah Cloud?
- Who is earning through every sale of Android, without having contributed anything to it?
This to name but a few of their latest shenanigans. If you let me go a
You have to eat your own shit (Score:3)
Bah (Score:2)
Whenever a new thing happens, small or big, "media outlets" will call it InsertBrandHere-KILLER because... clickbait.