Evolution Of Debian Package Dependencies Resemble Predator-Prey Relationships 58
An anonymous reader writes "Scientists have performed an ecological analysis of software packages in the Debian GNU/Linux distribution over time; they found that dependencies can be successfully modeled as a predator-prey relationship."
Re:First post (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, I see their point, but I think this has been taken further by the Debian derivatives.
There are Badgers, Lynx, Narwhals and Ocelots, ferchrissake! I hardly think that, cruel as he is, "Sid" is any kind of predator. And "Hamm"? Surely you're joking!
Deep research indeed! (Score:5, Funny)
In other words, "The team compiled statistics on the last three major releases".
Re:Deep research indeed! (Score:4, Funny)
You must be a release or two behind. the package 'sense-of-humor' had a critical bug that was recently fixed.
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You don't see woody getting updates these days, do you? I thought they only kept stable and perhaps oldstable updated with critical fixes?
Pure nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
Once again, people versed in one discipline apply their skills to another with results that sound fancy and expensive, while really are just nonsense [abstrusegoose.com].
Re:Pure nonsense (Score:5, Informative)
Once again, people versed in one discipline apply their skills to another with results that sound fancy and expensive, while really are just nonsense [abstrusegoose.com].
Not really. Trial and error is at the heart of evolution which can apply just as easily to living organisms, memes, or software (which is actually a form of meme). It just happens to work quicker on the latter. Predator-Prey relationships are merely an extension of evolution, and is all about inter-dependance. If a package depends on another, one could be considered predator, and the other prey. If development slows on that which is depended on, then the predator must find new prey or face lower numbers and/or extinction.
The greater mistake is a myopic view of disciplines, thinking that nobody else can contribute to the understanding of another discipline except those who specialize in it.
Re: (Score:2)
But this doesn't seem to shed any new light on things. Does it give us new insight into what we should be doing or avoiding? Does it provide us with any new ways to deal with problems? Nothing is obvious to me off the bat, but time will tell if some novel application of this observation will bear fruit. Right now, it's just an interesting phenomenon.
Re:Pure nonsense (Score:5, Interesting)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2541160&cid=38152056 [slashdot.org] - Laid out here. It can lead developers to spot problem applications, that, though popular enough now, may be relying on a few key dying dependencies... a sort of hidden death that without enough developers, the software, though popular, could quickly deteriorate and die.
I'd use an example, but I'll inevitably piss someone off if I mention any packages.
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"I'd use an example, but I'll inevitably piss someone off if I mention any packages."
Isn't it a pissing contest?
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Let me see if I can put this on context for you: Life doesn't debug, debian does. All flaws and successes in debian, the team behind it is responsible for. Thus a newer module does not "eat" a weaker module, the debian team gets spammed w complaints on how much a feature sucks or how a bug is costing stability and then fix it in turn making the module better. *shrug* article is very vague as well.
Re:Pure nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me see if I can put this on context for you: Life doesn't debug, debian does.
It's called reproduction. Failure in life results in decreased chance of reproduction, including the ultimate decreased chance, death.
Dependencies compete for limit resources called developers. Just look at all the various sound systems Linux has gone through. They, and the software that depends on them fight to gain more users to thus draw more developers. And, they either live and reproduce, or die.
You are thinking of predator-prey wrong. It's not about eating by about parasitic relationships. And biology is very good at that. What this can show a developer is, based on known algorithms of life and chances of survival, which pieces of software are most in danger of extinction. And that's not always obvious. A music app might be facing extinction because of a particular reliance on a codec dependency that is slowly losing support in favor of another. It let's the developer see further down the road.
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I live in America dude, the bigger a piece of shit / asshole / degenerate you are, the more females like you increasing the chance of reproduction, so what you said but backwards. Success in life results in career work that leaves ppl w inept social skills and no time to use their limited ones, ah corporate America, controlling the population one peon at a time.
Haha, yeah. The advantage to our social meme is that unlike DNA, we're actually good at manipulating it. Advantage for... whom? Not us. ;)
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I live in America dude, the bigger a piece of shit / asshole / degenerate you are, the more females like you increasing the chance of reproduction, so what you said but backwards.
What does this mean for goatse guy?
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Ecology is an emergent property of evolution, which is an eme
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>Software is not a cultural item, nor is it transmitted by repetition.
What is a cultural item? At least a meme would be, according to yourself. Example of a meme? Let's take the "First post" meme. It is something one does (the posting at the right time) and it carries certain information ("Frosty Piss!" "First Post!" and variations (or should I say forks) thereof). Can you see how action and information embedded into a meme is kind of like code and data embedded in a software program?
The transmission by
Re: (Score:3)
The transmission by repetition also fits, although maybe not as obviously, but if people don't pick up the software and use it, does it exist? The transmission by repetitition aspect of software is in running it repetedly.
Interesting! So, the success of a software program might be measured by the total computers it can convince to run it, and the amount of time it runs. (I guess "System Idle Process" is thus the most successful, by that metric. :)
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hehe... yeah... Seriously, though, is there a difference between a meme and an idea? What is the difference between an idea and any other kind of information formed or interpreted in a human brain? Oh, I guess one can have an idea in ones head and never tell anyone. Can a meme be more than an idea that is transmitted? What is the capital of Assyria?
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If it can be copied it's a cultural item.
Re:Pure nonsense (Score:5, Funny)
If a package depends on another, one could be considered predator, and the other prey. If development slows on that which is depended on, then the predator must find new prey or face lower numbers and/or extinction.
Dammit, this other package my package depends on is just too fucking stable! It never changes! Every day it's just the same damn thing again! I need to base my package on something that's more of a moving target. Otherwise I run the risk of my own software becoming... (shudder) STABLE.
Re: (Score:3)
In 96 or 97, this was solved when a major package--live or some such, on which nearly everything actually depended to execut--was declared by one person to have an impure license, andhe unilaterally pulled it. If you ran an update, you ended up with a system that w dead in the water, you could run a shell, but I don't remember whether it was single user or console.
In the meantime, I tried FreeBSD afain, and that time it supported my hardware, and stayed with it (and discovered how FreeBSD & Linux would
Ok, I'll read... (Score:3)
I read the first linked FA. It doesn't explain, but just states that dependencies are a predator-prey relationship. Would that mean as in cats depend on mice (in a hypothetical ekosystem with not much more than mice and cats) and without no mice there would be no cats? If that's what they mean, then that is likely just a statement of the nature of packages using a biology analogy, not any kind of findings from their research.
Was there something to take to heart about the things about modularity and conflicts and stuff? Too tired or ignorant to get that.
Re: (Score:2)
>no, if there are no mice, it will eats birds, &tc
That's why I said it was a hypothetical ecosystem with not much more than mice and cats.
Mandatory XKCD (Score:5, Funny)
... is here [xkcd.com].
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The main question is... (Score:2)
After countless stints in Dependency Hell, I would ask: which is the predator, and which is the prey?
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Mathematics is universal (Score:2)
Just because a mathematical tool works in other fields does not mean they are related. You can describe many things with differential equations.
Title is wrong. (Score:4, Funny)
People in Kansas know that the Debian Package Dependencies were Intelligently Designed!!!
Re: (Score:3)
There's no evidence that both intelligent design and evolution is involved, in the biological case. After all, Debian, which is designed and maintained by intelligent beings, demonstrates a very strong similarity to evolutionary process. It's not a proof in and of itself, but it's suggestive, IMO.
Genesis 1:1 (Score:2)
Re:Genesis 1:1 (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Genesis 1:1 (Score:5, Funny)
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Is the Holy Ghost a JTAG debug session, then?
This has many potential applications (Score:5, Funny)
I sometimes suspect that my former marriage could have been successfully modeled as a predator/prey relationship.
Lotka-Volterra equations (Score:3)
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Sid/Experimental daily consumption
So what exactly do you expect packages deliberately and explicitly offered as unstable and experimental to be? And for having some chosen packages in their latest and greatest version: Ever heard of apt pinning (or Gentoo for that matter)?
I hold Linus and his underlings responsible
Oh boy. How could one possibly argue with that... I mean: You can only argue with claims that posses some kind of logic or sense or meaning or such, can't you?
I like having two platforms to do scientific work on, [Linux and OS X] but I plan on spending more time on FreeBSD and less on Linux with the way Linux continues to move forward. Wake me up when Linus has a stable ABI and the ``binary blobs taints the kernel crap'' ends and perhaps Linux might gain 2% on the desktop.
So you're not only intentionally using unstable and experimental stuff all over your system and expect it to be st