Developers Fork Mandriva Linux, Creating Mageia 206
Anssi55 writes "As most of the Mandriva employees working on the Linux distribution were laid off due to the liquidation of Edge-IT (a subsidiary of Mandriva SA) and trust in the company has diminished, the development community (including the core developers) has decided to fork the project. The new Linux distribution, named Mageia, will be managed by a not-for-profit organization that will be set up in the coming days. There are already many people that have decided to follow the fork, but the people behind it are still welcoming any help offered in the various tasks related to establishing the new distribution."
Name (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:Name (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes because Excel, Powerpoint, Quicken, Maya, and Twitter are so much better . . .
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Actually, they are for the most part.
Powerpoint says something about what you do with it and conveys positive imagery - it's powerful, it's something you point at (a presentation). Excel - it doesn't really say what it is, but it conveys the idea of speed and success, which are important in business. Likewise with Quicken - they verbed an adjective (quick) that means something, and while potentially having some strange linguistic associations (quicken/quickening is the moment in pregnancy when a fetus' mo
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Well the part about "twitter" being an awful sounding name in English was pretty spot-on.
You have to give him credit for that.
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Just because you can list some popular software packages that have stupid names doesn't change the point any.
Eventually people know what those names mean, however until you develop critical mass the name hurts.
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How do you get modded up for that crap? Aside from Maya, all of those are fantastic names for products. Ubuntu, on the other hand...
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yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Rule #1: Make it easy to pronounce so people aren't afraid to look stupid saying the name wrong. You think you are going to get critical mass with Ubuntu? Think again.
Marketing 101 (Score:2)
Yes because Excel, Powerpoint, Quicken, Maya, and Twitter are so much better . . .
But they really are that much better.
The motivational poster is at least a century old.
Excel, Powerpoint and Quicken play on that same instinct to make your mark, get ahead in your career.
This isn't the image conjured up by the GIMP.
Twitter suggests fun and play. Maya, worlds of illusion, mystery, and magic. The tech that brings home an Oscar. Catapults Blue Sky Studios into the big-time with Ice Age and Scrat.
While a blender
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That to me sounds like they are intent on competing head on with Ubuntu.
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Re:Name (Score:5, Informative)
Incorrect and backwards.
Excel and PowerPoint had both been successful stand-alone products for several years before "Microsoft Office" was conceived, as a bundle (with Word) of three popular, name-brand products at a lower total price. At the time, Excel had just overtaken 1-2-3 as the best-selling spreadsheet program, and this was an effort at coattails-style marketing synergy, as avid Word users would become Excel and PowerPoint users, Excel fans would switch to Word and Powerpoint, etc. What Microsoft would lose in revenue they'd gain in market share, a tactic that contributed to the decline of WordPerfect, Borland, and Lotus, and Microsoft's near-monopoly on commercial office suites.
This was around the same time that Microsoft started making "Microsoft" part of the official names of the applications, amalgamating its line of popular individual software products into a monolithic brand: not just "Microsoft's spreadsheet program, Excel" but "the spreadsheet program Microsoft Excel". This went further as "Microsoft Excel" became "Microsoft Office Excel". (And if not for the anti-vertical-integration court cases, I suspect it would be bundled as "Microsoft Office Windows Excel" by now.)
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Describing what it does in two words or less.
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I have no idea what Maya is. I can look it up, but that just makes MBGMorden's point.
The only reason I know what quicken is is because my credit union offers to export my records to quicken.
Twitter is know simply because of mass usage. Same with Excel. The name Excel doesn't produces mental images of spreadsheets.
I think OpenOffice did a better job naming their sub-products.
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Well, Thunderbird and Firefox are a lot more userfriendly than your average car brand name or medication, yet the cars are bought. F-150, Escape Hybrid, E-series... not very userfriendly. Yet popular.
zafirlukast, rabeprazole, fexofenadine - even less userfriendly. Yet very popular
The gimp name is a marketing nightmare and probably has caused the software to be banned from more corporations than the developers realize.
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No, these names are English. That is not userfriendly but culturally biased.
Don't forget that Mandriva was in negotiations to get Russian state contracts. To me it looks like the Russians will simply sack Mandriva. The new distribution on a community/non-profit base is a perfect counter-weight.
Magea is magic.
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"Don't forget that Mandriva was in negotiations to get Russian state contracts. To me it looks like the Russians will simply sack Mandriva."
Uhm. For Russian speakers the word "Mandriva" sounds threateningly close to a slang word for "vagina".
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Just in case you don't believe me:
* Bloomberg 8 Juli [bloomberg.com]
* http://blog.quintura.com/2010/07/22/russia-to-create-linux-based-national-operating-system/ [quintura.com]
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I know.
There was a lot of laugh on Russian-speaking news sites when this news was announced.
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"The gimp name is a marketing nightmare and probably has caused the software to be banned from more corporations than the developers realize."
They realize by now, so it is obvious they don't care.
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gimp [reference.com]
Definition 3 also happens to be the one most people are familiar with. GIMP is a *horrible* name for that reason, and I can tell you that, while not banned, I had a manager look at me and say, "No, we'll just buy Photoshop," one time when I suggested "Why not just grab a copy of Gimp from the web to get the intern working on some of these images you want?"
It does happen.
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"Why not just grab a copy of The GNU Image Processor from the web to get the intern working on some of these images you want?"
That may have gone over better.
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Yeah, I'll get right on wasting my time worrying about the branding of some software that I don't care a thing about. If you don't want people calling it "GIMP", don't name it "GIMP."
If you're saying that "GNU Image Processor" would be a "friendlier" name, then you're also implying that the term 'GIMP' will, at the very least raise a few eyebrows or cause a few snickers. And if that's the reaction you want for your software, that's fine. But if you want it to be seen as a viable alternative to a well-kno
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Because my boss wanted to get the intern set up quickly, so I suggested what I knew to be a "quick / decent" tool for them to do some image editing in.
Whether or not it got used is irrelevant to me, but it is relevant to this discussion, where somebody was claiming that nobody would refuse to use it based on a poor name choice. I can offer at least one example of a time that it *did* get passed over for exactly that reason.
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People would then just end up calling it GNU, as GNU Image Processor is to unwieldy, which would lead to plenty of confusion down the line.
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Better yet, why not refer to it's correct name: The GNU Image Manipulation Program.
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The other thing to keep in mind is that for better or worse, Photoshop is the more familiar tool, so companies can rely the artists being familiar with it, not to mention it is a more polished tool. GIMP may have the technical capability to perform most Photoshop tasks, but it can be more of a pain to use.
Considering that the GIMP does not give productivity benefits over Photoshop, does not have an excellent reputation for quality (unlike say Apache), and the cost of a Photoshop license is rather small in b
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Funny, my company uses Apache, Tomcat, Perl, Python, PHP, Linux, GCC, Java, Eclipse, and a host of other FOSS software & tools. This has nothing to do with licensing or purchasing policies.
This was me, suggesting something to my manager, after which he looked at me like I had suggested we engage in a little light tickling - just for fun! - and then said, "No, let's just use Photoshop." The name gets an immediate response, and it's sometimes not a positive one.
If you choose a bad name for your software
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DILDOS is a household name!
We can capitalize on the brand recognition already present with millions of housewives.
In fact, once we launch we will have an army of married and single women knocking down the doors for the brand new DILDOS operating system.
Unfortunately, netcraft will likely confirm DILDOS as dead due to very few individuals admitting publicly they use our truly orgasmic operating system.
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Yeah, do you really want to be the one running around proclaiming the year of DILDOS on the desktop, or DILDOS on the phone, or DILDOS on the camera? Or heaven forbid, motherfucking DILDOS on a motherfucking plane?
I just don't think I'd really care to work in an IT shop that used nothing but DILDOS... IT is a male dominate field, we have more than enough dicks without importing fake ones.
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"appeal to internet dictionary"? Dude, it's called a citation - it's not just a slang reference that somebody picked up from Pulp Fiction, 'gimp' is a legitimate word, referring to a limp. That's all that was intended to demonstrate - I'm not saying those other definitions aren't also legitimate, but let's be honest: ask somebody to define a "gimp", and see what the overwhelming response is - hint: most people aren't horsemen, or tailors.
As far as naming a company, why should I be bothered? I never cla
Re:Name (Score:4, Insightful)
One Word: Trademark.
its really hard these days to come up with useful names these days without infringing on another companies trademark. ESPECIALLY if you want to go international.
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You mean like "Mandrake"? Hearst sued them [webmasterworld.com], but honestly, Mandriva? That's as bad as Mandrivel. Not like anyone cares any more.
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And I think you can extend that to names that don't actually infringe trademarks, but is sufficiently close that someone would make a trademark lawsuit. Very few open source projects have the resources to fight over a name, even if they would eventually get the case dismissed.
trademarks and domain names and brands, oh my! (Score:2)
The trademark minefield and the growing exhaustion of the domain namespace are both culprits. It's increasingly true that "all of the good ones are taken".
But still.... "Mageia"?
Auto makers have the same problem, and yet they still (usually) manage to invent brand names that consumers will find easy to remember and easy to pronounce. "Mageia" is not. (I just had to look up to confirm the spelling, not a good sign.) A combination of three vowels in a row is confusing: do you pronounce each one? blend the
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I would agree. The fascination with recursive acronyms and "cute" names for mainstream products is not helping acceptance. Gimp is a good example, as it actually a good program that runs fine on Windows, but when people who want a photo editing program ask me for a free "photoshop" and I tell them "Gimp", they look at me like I just farted at the dinner table: Shocked and somewhat disgusted.
Hey, if you code the program, you can call it what you want, but if your goal is to get as many people using your s
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Apart from having to reset the "extended input devices" every now and then for my Wacom Bamboo tablet to be recogniced, yes.
This is not acceptable for production environment or, really, any environment. And the fact tha Gimp for Windows is unsupported doesn't really help anything.
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Choosing a name is not as easy as most people think. There's a lot of psychology that goes behind a brand name that marketing and PR experts are best at exploiting. Additionally, most software developers aren't known for their UI creativity...
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Interesting, I took Mageia as a back-reference to the magician theme that Mandrake used. Mageia, then, would be (freely adapted) the arts & skills of the Magus.
Sorry it didn't mean anything to you.
The problem, though, isn't when it doesn't mean anything, as much as when it means something you really don't want it to mean, the the Chevy Nova in Spanish speaking countries.
(No va == "Doesn't go")
Fork of a fork (Score:2, Informative)
Rememer that Mandiva was forked from Red Hat when it was Mandrake, and had bits of Connectiva too.
Don't do it... join forces to Ubuntu. (Score:2, Interesting)
Ahh open source... divide and conquer.
I recall Mandrake/Mandriva as one of the most user friendly distros when I used it... (IIRC around version 7 or 8).
In my opinion it would be really great if instead of doing another fork the Mageia developers tried to merge all the good features of Mandriva into Ubuntu.
I understand that Mandriva uses RPM and has several differences compared to Ubuntu, however merging both software would really benefit Ubuntu or better yet, Kubuntu (the chance to make it not suck).
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Hell, I'm still using Mandrake. It's my firewall but still, I haven't had any problems.
[John]
Re:Don't do it... join forces to Ubuntu. (Score:4, Informative)
Traditionally, a proprietary fork has always been a bad thing. However, there's not so much evidence for that in open source. Most of the time the two forks take ideas from each other, both advancing faster till the stage where one of them stagnates and hands over it's features to the other.
From the user point of view this is great; you don't get data lock in because the source code always lets you see how the formats work; you do get much faster advancing software and it doesn't even really matter which fork you pick (though going with the community rather than the company has always been a good pick; just beware that often the community is with the company).
Just because forks are bad in proprietary software doesn't mean the same here.
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Sometimes, sometimes it looks like they just duplicated effort moving at much slower speed like the radeon/radeonhd drivers. Branching is a quite necessary tool in OSS, diverging forks not so much. That usually just means there's too different goals or too much ego on one and the same project. That doesn't include the forks where pretty much all the development switches to a fork, like say xorg fork where the xfree project was essentially dead. Or some other not development-related stuff happening like MySQ
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From the user point of view this is great; you don't get data lock in because the source code always lets you see how the formats work; you do get much faster advancing software and it doesn't even really matter which fork you pick (though going with the community rather than the company has always been a good pick; just beware that often the community is with the company).
I've given a great deal of thought to this connundrum, though I'd actually call it a bit of a paradox.
Why a paradox? Because, quite frankly, it's not that simple.
Just because the source is available and there are forks and something continues to be maintained does not mean your options are clear cut, easy, or cheap. It does not mean that compatibility remains. It's the same with dead proprietary software.
Yes, you could just keep using the same thing, year over year, because it "still works". But where does
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It would be much better when Mandriva was the user polished version on a Debian base.
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No, they should merge all the good features of Ubuntu into Mandriva. That way you would not only have a good distro, but it would be one that wouldn't bail out during the install and would actually work with damn near any hardware you throw at it (i.e. Dell BCM43 chips - last time I tried to get one of those on Ubuntu it took _days_. On Mandriva it just worked.)
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It would be stupid to try work with Ubuntu as they are not upstream friendly, they do not develope software and they do not care about the community. Mandriva was totally different when compared to Canonical.
Mandriva even is more user friendly at 2010.1 than Ubuntu is with 10.10 (beta). When it comes to handling a hardware, networks or multimedia, Mandriva wins. Only thing where Ubuntu goes around is the amount of packages and that goes in rare ones. Mandriva package repos had almost all what was needed, wh
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I wonder why they are not working with the Unity Linux people? They could contribute to Unity, and Mageia could be simply the most Mandriva like branch of Unity.
With stuff like Ubuntu, I wonder how hard it would be to port the best bits of Mandriva (Control Centre, network applet, etc.) to Ubuntu?
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Mandrake was a very easy to use and user friendly release of RedHat Linux, similar to how Ubuntu is an easier and more friendly version of Debian. Mandrake had a good following back in the day and I remember it being very easy to use.
I think that it would be best if they do their own thing and see what they come up with, not only because their base distros are completely different but because they could bring in new ideas. I'm hoping Mageia will be able to come up with a fresh user friendly Linux that can b
Re:Don't do it... join forces to Ubuntu. (Score:4, Interesting)
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...and enabling by default that zenworks or whatever management daemon that broke things to the left and right, and installing beagle by default that resulted in seriously shitty performance. luckily, both of those things are gone in latest versions :)
ok, they still managed to fuckup things recently - they disabled touchpad tapping in installation environment, and desktop environments by default (from what i read, initially because gnome defaulted to it disabled).
why such imho braindead decisions get throug
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Maybe so, but these problems have been fixed in the 11.x releases. zypper works beautifully now, and fast too. And installing the codecs couldn't be easier: http://opensuse-community.org/Restricted_formats/11.3 [opensuse-community.org]
Re:Don't do it... join forces to Ubuntu. (Score:4, Informative)
I would recommend helping openSUSE instead. Many technologies are similar and openSUSE is, in my opinion, one of the most nicely rounded distributions - it's just not the popular one.
Yeah, I wonder why.
Maybe because they don't come with repositories configured like ALL OTHER DISTRIBUTIONS out there, for NO REASON. And it's a PAIN to find the addresses, a PAIN to use Yast to pull from them (proxies, non intuitive dialogs, etc, etc)
That, and Suse smoked the data from my HD once.
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You can easily select "community repositories" from YaST.
Which version!?
You also cannot do 'network install' by picking from a list, last time I tried.
The main problem is doing work with past versions (which is 90% of the time I used Suse)
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Why not just merge with Fedora or Ubuntu (Score:4, Interesting)
Given the roots of Mandriva/Mandrake, perhaps merging with Fedora should be considered.
Or perhaps Ubuntu may be interested.
I don't think there is a need for this thing to live independently.
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Re:Why not just merge with Fedora or Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
As a former Mandriva user (now on Arch) - there is very much a need for Mandriva to continue. It's the distro I always recommend to newbies, and as far as I know it's the only distro that is both extremely user-friendly and has excellent hardware support. I've seen far too many people give up on Linux because Ubuntu didn't like some piece of hardware. For a newbie's first Linux distro, you need to have at least basic support for _all_ hardware straight from the install. I've never seen Mandriva fail at that...and I've also never seen Ubuntu succeed.
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As a former Mandriva user (now on Arch) - there is very much a need for Mandriva to continue. It's the distro I always recommend to newbies, and as far as I know it's the only distro that is both extremely user-friendly and has excellent hardware support. I've seen far too many people give up on Linux because Ubuntu didn't like some piece of hardware. For a newbie's first Linux distro, you need to have at least basic support for _all_ hardware straight from the install. I've never seen Mandriva fail at that...and I've also never seen Ubuntu succeed.
This never ceases to amaze me about Linux. If Mandrake has such amazing hardware support, why the hell don't all the other distros have the same level of support. It's all open source right?
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The base system can be rock-solid, but the part exposed to users (and tweaked for the distro) can be broken. My experience is that the Ubuntu developers often break something (e.g., wireless) while trying to redesign the UI. A few releases back wireless stopped working for me. I found I could connect using barebones wpa_supplicant (a PITA to create the correct conf file, but it worked), but Network-manager was a mess. Slowly this got sorted out and NM now works for me.
Currently, on other machines with Debia
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Opensuse is another user friendly distro that will install almost on anything. I remember I had a particularly non-mainstream laptop at one time and all my attempts at installing a distro failed (I had started from debian and went on...) until a friend suggested Suse. Well, being a KDE person and also hearing about problems on Ubuntu installations that my friends had (flash, sound most common) which I had never encountered I just stuck with Suse. I understand that due to Novel having a sort of a relationshi
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A common misconception. Mandriva has always supported both KDE and Gnome. And it's always been better than every other distro at providing choice, ease of use, and development packages.
Hopefully if this Mageia thing takes off I can easily switch RPM repositories. Otherwise I suppose my installation is in jeopardy if Mandriva doesn't spring back up to its former glory.
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That is because Fedora is to RHEL as other distributions "testing" is to "stable". On Red Hat style distributions, if you want stability (without the support costs), you use CentOS or Scientific Linux. If you want to be bleeding edge (like I do on my personal system), you use the latest version of Fedora (I am not so "bleed
Sure. More the merrier (Score:3, Funny)
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* make Linux and free software straightforward to use for everyone;
* provide integrated system configuration tools;
* keep a high-level of integration between the base system, the desktop (KDE/GNOME) and applications; especially improve third-parties (be it free of proprietary software) integration;
* target new architectures and form-factors;
* improve our understanding of computers and electronics devices users.
How is this different from lots of other distros we already have? PCLinuxOS, Mint Linux, Kubuntu/Ubuntu...? They should call it YADL (Yet Another Desktop Linux). Shouldn't they be trying to do something different? How about a user friendly version of a fast/lite Linux. Something like Arch Linux or Gentoo with a GUI installer maybe? Or a mandriva fast and lite distro? The Mandriva-like equivalent of something like Lubuntu. If someone wants bloated, slow, but easy to use they can just install Windows 7, or W
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Go Mageia! (Score:4, Insightful)
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A very subjective statement - users of Slackware and OpenSUSE and even Kubuntu might disagree.
I havent tried it in awhile but it always aimed at somewhat the same audience as Ubuntu, only based on RH infrastructure rather than Debian, and defaulting to KDE rather than Gnome. It's good to have choices, even if that makes the assessment of 'the best' more di
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So what was the difference between Kubuntu and Mandriva? I haven't tried either one.
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Madnriva is faster, feels more polished, and has a very good control centre, and a better network applet.
The only thing that is better on Kubuntu is software installation, especially through the GUI.
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Kubuntu is probably THE distro that is responsible for the bad name KDE4 got...
That sounds odd considering that Kubuntu's KDE install is pretty much the same as if you installed KDE from unaltered source on any distribution. All of KDE4's default settings are at least somewhat questionable. Somebody said that if you take a clean KDE4 install, open up Dolphin, and check the options, pretty much all are set to the oposite of what you would want.
I did so, and agreed that the vast majority of the default Boolean settings were the reverse of what I would want.
That sort of crap is what gave
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I've heard a lot of people claim that Kubuntu has their own patches for KDE4 which are responsible for instability. No idea how true that is, since I haven't ever looked at package sources.
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kubuntu... not really. whenever i tried it, kubuntu did not really live up to the promise of being a usable kde distro.
slackware is quite a different thing (and i'm saying that as a slackware user). while things are much more automated than in the early days, that's still quite different from what other distributions on your list deliver (or promise to deliver).
opensuse would probably be the closest, especially given them both being based on rpm. one thing where mandriva/drake/mageuiaieuia might be more sen
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good (Score:5, Funny)
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There are an infinite number of Linux distributions spread across an infinite number of universes.
The problem is just finding the right universe to start looking in.
eh (Score:2)
My eyes! (Score:5, Funny)
Goddamn, I skimmed the headline in my RSS feed and saw "Developers Fork Mandriva Linux, Creating Mangina." :\
I really need to cut back on the caffeine.
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With that title... (was Re: My eyes!) (Score:2)
... would it have been so hard to start your comment with, "The goggles, they do nothing!" Would it, really???
Usage (Score:2)
Am I the only person here still using Mandriva? It certainly would explain why some bug reports I've filed seem to have taken forever for anyone to look at them, and even longer for a fix.
Now which distro to support, Mandriva or the new fork?
I settled on Mandrake (as it was then) when it was known as bleeding edge, run on just about anything, and the most user friendly of the installations (with a decent partition manager when installing so you don't install into the wrong place / drive).
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No, you're not the only one. I use Mandriva extensively, even paying for it plus donating piles of bandwidth (on a real server, not something in a closet in my house) to the project, and for one simple reason. It works. It works correctly. Every time. And it does it right out of the box.
I've never been able to get everyone's darling Ubuntu to install on any hardware I own *even once* without banging on it. Same goes for Suse and Fedora. And I don't have bleeding edge hardware. My feeling is that (unlike
What does this mean for Scalix? (Score:2)
What does the current health of Mandriva mean for Scalix [scalix.com]? Scalix is possibly the best alternative to Microsoft Echange right now, for organizations who have grown to expect Exchange groupware functionality but want to get away from Microsoft's convoluted, nickle-and dime licensing schemes.
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Re:And, the names get worse (Score:5, Funny)
Also, that other Mandrake fork, PCLinuxOS is just as a bad a name - why didn't Bill Reynolds call it Texstar Linux? Calling a distro PCLinuxOS is like naming your dog BarkingMammal.
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You have to consider the impression made on the end-user. Branding matters. Would you run Faggot Linux on your desktop?
Faggot:
a bundle of sticks, twigs, or branches bound together and used as fuel, a fascine, a torch, etc.
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So now you resort to ad hominem attacks? Who's escalating now? Please explain why you think that pointing out something that I believe is clearly a defect - and easily changed - makes me a "bringer of destruction".
When something is very unusual, the normal, instant reaction is to find something familiar in it. If the first association is distasteful, that can leave a lasting impression, which can only be overcome with considerable difficulty. I still have to contend with jokes about Mandriva whereas all my
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I've already explained the why in previous posts; feel free to re-read them. Sure, naming things can be difficult but millions of people and companies manage it, even if it takes several tries.
Firefox is a case in point.
If they need help with a name or logo, I'm sure the community would be delighted to offer suggestions. This has worked for many projects in the past - I believe the one or more of the BSDs have used this in the last couple of years. And, considering that so many of the former Mandrake people
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I'm well aware of this - I speak French. But they had been doing business in English for years - they didn't do their homework.
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