VMware Looks To Acquire Novell's SUSE Unit 161
minutetraders writes "According to the Wall Street Journal, VMware is attempting to acquire Novell's SUSE Linux operating system business. This move would give VMware a full stack of enterprise software and allow it to establish itself as a full-blown infrastructure and software vendor in direct competition with Red Hat."
The WSJ report is behind a paywall, but it's accessible in full through a Google search.
why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:4, Insightful)
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Really, no
Keep Miguel, he's underrated (and unjustly hated) by lots of people.
Mono, free software, patents, MS is evil, blah blah blah
The guy started Gnome (ok, I hate it) but it's a solid work.
Mono is also a solid work. And Oracle has just shown that there are issues with Java as well w.r.t patents and stuff
Also, Mono is something I see as embrace-extend backwards, that is, Mono does that to MS
Really, Miguel may be 'debatable' sometimes, but he's valuable
Re:why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:4, Insightful)
If there's suddenly a problem with Java w.r.t. patents and stuff, would the alternative really be something "open source" based upon a Microsoft product? :\
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Looks very interesting though, and would definitely give it a more serious look once it matures a little more.
Re:why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:5, Interesting)
Dude, whatever you are smoking can you please share it.
Gnome perpetrates Winhoze coding practices into the unix world. Just take any piece of gnome code and read it. Carefully. And follow the code design, not just the code "quality".
Let's just take ekiga as an example, though any gnome app will do.
The state machine is tightly coupled with the UI just like a Windows application. As a result making it use multiple CPUs properly or reusing the code for anything other than another Gnome application is impossible. Not surprisingly it triggers races in underlying (similarly badly coded) libraries like there is no tomorrow. Same for having the UI stripped away. This is impossible. And just do not get me started on the subject of trying to integrate something to a piece of gnome code. Because the apps state machines are built around the UI half of the key functions that should show up on dbus end up as inaccessible. Taking same ekiga as an example - call is exposed while hangup is not because it is so UI-tied up that there is no way in hell to expose it.
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Winhoze? Seriously?
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You have a 5-digit UID and you're still calling it Wonhoze? :)
Anyway, I have a different take on it than you. The developer just wanted a mature, visually appealing, and featureful library to make his/her life easier. And this is GNU stuff here. So even though it may not match easthetically (say if you use E17/Sawmill/FVWM/etc.), anyone can download the Gnome library and use (and display) the application anyways.
Whats wrong with that?
Please put down the pipe (Score:2)
Even a fairly simple language like AutoHotKey: (Script interpreted by an on-the-fly C++ compiler) can do amazing things with DLLCALL and RegisterCallBack.
Or even some of the work by BlackWingCat : BlackWingCat's KDW API Wrapper & Tools [site90.com] or OldCigarettes : OldCigarettes Windows 2000 XP API Wrapper Pack (OCW) [site90.com], which do API wrapping on Binaries like ntdll.dll, user32.d
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Let's just take ekiga as an example, though any gnome app will do.
The state machine is tightly coupled with the UI just like a Windows application. As a result making it use multiple CPUs properly or reusing the code for anything other than another Gnome application is impossible. Not surprisingly it triggers races in underlying (similarly badly coded) libraries like there is no tomorrow. Same for having the UI stripped away. This is impossible.
That's why GNOME has switched to Empathy [gnome.org], just another GNOME app but done right.
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Mono is also a solid work. And Oracle has just shown that there are issues with Java as well w.r.t patents and stuff
Java is perfectly fine. It's when you want to mess with the bytecode and VM implementation that you can run into trouble. Mono, on the other hand, the main implementation already violates MS patents for which there is no patent protection (e.g. ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Windows Forms).
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Java is perfectly fine. It's when you want to mess with the bytecode and VM implementation that you can run into trouble.
Are you saying that Java is open source except where you can't actually do things to it that you are supposed to be able to do with open source?
Mono, on the other hand, the main implementation already violates MS patents for which there is no patent protection (e.g. ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Windows Forms).
Who in a sane mind would even want to use any of those on Unix, though? Gtk# is where it is, and it is not subject to any MS patents (obviously). While the language, binary format, VM semantics, and base class library are all under Open Spec Promise, so patents there do not apply.
Re:why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:4, Insightful)
While personally I think Mono is a very nice piece of technology, in many ways superior to the Java platform... in my eyes Miguel lost all credibility back when he endorsed OOXML and later Silverlight.
Helping Microsoft embrace/extend the web with Silverlight by giving the illusion that it's cross-platform was the last straw.
For reference, Silverlight is neither cross-platform by design, because it's able to call native DLLs, or in practice because Moonlight is waaay behind.
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Helping Microsoft embrace/extend the web with Silverlight by giving the illusion that it's cross-platform was the last straw.
Well, see how that has worked out quite well! Oh wait, it didn't, everybody keeps using flash and now HTML5. Silverlight is stillborn.
I guess it's because Flash is designer centered whereas SL is developer centered. Also much easier to use than wathever MS did for SL.
For reference, Silverlight is neither cross-platform by design, because it's able to call native DLLs, or in practice because Moonlight is waaay behind.
I never tried Moonlight, but all vm / interpreted languages can usually call native code. That's with .NET, Python, Java, etc.
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Sure, but we're talking about web apps, there's a different standard of openness, accessibility and security we expect from those. Neither javascript in browsers nor actionscript in flash allow native code.
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Check out OpenJDK and Icedtea. Oracle is suing Google for Java related patents, but that doesn't affect Java developers, because any Java implementation that conforms to the old specs by Sun is covered.
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Never assume that the enemy of your enemy is your friend.
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You are not Mono's target audience. Big enterprise is Mono's target. I know one shop here in town that is mostly Java on RHEL. A year or two ago they acquired a smaller company which had some Java apps, but a few of their offerings were C#/.Net
They set up some SLES boxes, configured mono, made some code tweaks to the application (I think most of that was porting the DB from SQLServer to Oracle) and had everything up in running within weeks of acquiring the company and a fraction of the cost of buying
Re:why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:5, Insightful)
I have given a lot of thought to this subject. In regards to politics, copyright law, and free software. It is only the nuts that are unreasonable that change the world. The question is all a matter of timing and is right now the time to fight. There are those who fight to soon and are marginal and die on the sidelines. Then there is a time when people are just a little to soon and are considered inflexible, eccentric or a little nutty.
Take a look at the founding of the United States, or of Women's Rights, or the Abolition of Slavery, in England, France, the United States etc. Going from horses to cars, harnessing steam, the world being round. All things that we take for granted now. But there was a time people could be killed for expressing such views. Then there was a time they were just considered nutty. Then there was a time where someone was unreasonable and the world bent to their view, instead of the other way around.
The better question is how principled are we. With all intellectual honesty, it is right that people should be able to govern their lives, have religious freedom, for women to have rights, for a person to not be a slave and enjoy the rewards for the work of the sweat of their brow? Is the same to be said of software freedom? If it is we should stand for it and bend the world to our will. It is up to each of us to determine in the short term if we should run non-free software to get work done now.
If I sound crazy, then it was just to soon to say this.
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so... you throw away java, mono and .net, also kde, gnome,... what's left then?? I suppose you're a BSD guy, but I'm *very* curious (seriously! really!) what desktop are you using and what is your language of choice?
Who says he's using a desktop?
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Real men use bits of wire and and a soldering iron.
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real men carve the gears of their difference engine with an hammer and chisel.
I disagree. Real make those gears by gnawing granite blocks with their teeth.
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oh? http://xkcd.com/505/
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so... you throw away java, mono and .net, also kde, gnome,... what's left then?? I suppose you're a BSD guy, but I'm *very* curious (seriously! really!) what desktop are you using and what is your language of choice?
Who says he's using a desktop?
Honestly folks, I wasn't trolling. Sheesh.
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He's probably assuming that the poster above wants to actually use his machine.
Well, that depends upon what you're using it to do. You don't need a fancy GUI for a lot of things. Take someone who's just doing the edit, compile, run routine for an embedded system, for instance. Or, maybe he's from some country where fast computers are hard to come by, and he's running on older hardware.
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I'm assuming it's a common case scenario and not a 0.01% thing.
I know. I was just nitpicking. One of those days.
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Back in the day before "desktops" we had these things called window managers. And as a system admin, if a project is too big to be fixed with Perl, then it probably requires something in C. These are just my personal feelings on the matter though. I did buy a Mac 'cause I was sick of poor power management and lame wifi support on both FreeBSD and Linux, though. I have servers I don't run GUIs on, and I have VMWare for small experiments. I'm happy with the setup.
Re:why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:4, Insightful)
I would have fully paid the $999 for the BSD/OS license when I was in high school, but they rolled back a bunch of the stuff into FreeBSD, which I could buy for about $30 (this was in dialup days still, and i didn't have the time to actually download stuff that big). I did pay the $150 or whatever for XiG accelerated X server, because it ran better through Linux ABI that XFree86 did natively.
If you've been around the floss stuff for a while, it can rub off some, but frankly, the older I get the less I care about the politics of "free software" or whatever. I don't mind paying to get something that works and saves me time, rather than cobbling together a less-than-optimal solution for geek credit.
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Shit, were you dealing drugs in high school? If I had $999 then I probably would have tried finding a hooker, but alas - this is slashdot... :)
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Every little girl wants a pony, and my sister got a damned $20,000 thoroughbred. The way I viewed, my parents needed to even up the balance sheet. At least the stuff I was into was marginally educational. My sister isn't employed riding horses.
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I remember those days. I miss them. I remember how XiG was so much faster. But most of all I loved the easy, GUI setup. I used to hate using, what was it, xg86cfg or whatever? Can't even remember. And then setting my monitor's horizontal and vertical values or whatever it was.
I loved just having Bash at my disposal and exploring the system through a CLI. So much fun. Now everything lacks the mystery and exploration aspect that computers used to have.
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The closing sentiment is a thing which can be found even in the earliest written words surviving to our times, anyway. Together with how the moral decay of youth will destroy civilisation.
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OK, I can understand, if not agree with the sentiment that Apple is bad because they release so little of their software and, have a closed ecosystem, use a Walled Garden approach, etc ad nauseum; but "leeches off free software"? From everything I've read Apple is a pretty good company to work with when it come to them using your project. They follow license terms of course; but also contribute patches, work with project leads, and generally try to be good members of communities. They've also created at l
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I would tend to agree with you about Apple's contributions. However, they are currently in a spat with the FSF over the GCC project. The FSF runs GCC and requires copyright assignment for all code contributions. Presumbably this is so they can quickly upgrade to the newwst GPL license (the Linux kernel is configured almost the opposite way, making the "upgrade" GPLv3 a non-option). Apple has spent a lot of time improving the Objective-C compiler in GCC, but isn't going to assign copyright for that work.
What
Re:why not just acquire all of Novell (Score:4, Informative)
If I can jump in here: I use FVWM with a heavily customised config file. Languages of choice, depending on the task at hand, are C, C++, Perl, and (currently) Lua or Ruby. That's running Linux, rather than BSD. I do use some Gnome and KDE apps.
I've never used Java for anything significant. I did use Mono professionally for three to four years, a couple of years ago, I can safely say that I don't miss it in the least.
Gnome is all right, and I quite like KDE, but both of them consume a lot of resources to provide a set of integration features that I don't need and rarely use. And I've rather got used to having a desktop that does things my way, rather than whatever is current trendy in the relevant communities.
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If you don't want to use .net and java, but looking for something similair, why not Vala ?
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> so... you throw away java, mono and .net, also kde, gnome,... what's left then??
What do you mean, "What's left?" How about - an entire universe less five apps?
Or let's talk about what we NEED and see where these bits fit in.
I need to type commands at a shell prompt. So I need a terminal. I need to be able to use more than one terminal at once, and don't have the desktop space for 100 computers. So I need some kind of multi terminal display thingy. X11 does that fairly well, when your terminal is an
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And you are surprised ? We all know crime does pay, no matter what people say.
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Erm, like a lot of folks, I disagree with Miguel's position on the desirability of promoting MS standards; but you need to get a grip. The guy has done FAR more for the F/OSS world than most. I think his business acumen is suspect, but his coding ability and commitment to F/OSS are unassailable, as far as I can see. Use Linux? Try turning off every bit of software Miguel has touched, and see what you're left with.
As a loyal Novell customer (Score:3, Interesting)
A defensive maneuver for VMWare (Score:4, Interesting)
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Novell has been that way for a very long time I fear. ,Quattro Pro and Unix and ran them right into the ground or at least just let them waste away.
Netware was great. I have not used it for years but if you need a NAS it is probably still a good way to go. It probably flies on modern hardware.
Novell bought WordPerfect
Novell could have intergrated Netware services onto Unix which they only half hearty did now they are really pushing for that on Linux which is a little late.
WordPerfect and Quattro Pro where b
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My shop has been Novell ever since they got an internal network around 1995 or so. They're in the process of going all-Microsoft now.
Glad I'm close to retiring, I don't like much of MS's software.
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I'm forced to agree. He may be happy, but none of his users are if he's using zenworks and groupwise.
I've found novell customers exhibit the same symptoms as battered wives; at first they are confused, then they are greatful for the few acts of kindness they receive, then finally they feel like they've done something wrong, but he's really a great guy.
Wake up call folks; NOVELL SUCKS. They HAD good products, but have since been eclipsed by MS and AD. Their product is painful to use and doesn't stand up t
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Hmmm are sure your not Steve Balmer in disguise?
You must be because you have not spoken of any other product except for Microsoft that could replace their suite of software
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I disagree. And if you knew how to use ZENworks correctly you would find that its a great product. And for a school it comes at a great price (very much discounted) if you use the SLA. Also eDir is much friendlier to work with then AD and it far more compatible with other software that requires LDAP to function. AD's version of LDAP access required specially tweaked Kerberos configs since MS doesn't follow standards. I will agree thought that Netware is a bit long in the tooth but SLES 10 and OES 2 ar
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It would help if they did some more advertising though.
It is much easier to use GoDaddy for web services just because they adve
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eDirectory isn't the problem, it's the local workstation client that is problematic.
All in all, however, edirectory is probably the best of their products ( even considering the downside of having to use the client on the local workstation ). It's the only one I could stomach using.
Zenworks and groupwise, however...ug.
Re:As a loyal Novell customer (Score:5, Interesting)
Really crud is it? Then Please tell me about: an equivalent open source piece of software that Encompasses all the features of :
Please do educate us ( at least me ) as to ready to install software that can duplicate or exceed the capabilities of each of those that does not have the Microsoft label. Because as it is I am ready to through Novell under the train, but not until I can do so without turning to The Empire.
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Oh I have no trouble paying for support contracts in the least. But I have yet to see anything from the Open Source world that comes even close to the level of polish and usability of any of those products that does not come from Microsoft.
And yes, I do have a problem using MS stuff as I do have a sense of morals and ethics.
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Because I have a sense of morals and ethics
Some of Microsoft's stuff is not half bad, but I personally will not support that company with my money, or my clients. I had a client that was fairly lucrative and then they got it into their heads that they should go ALL ms ALL the way. I was professional about it and found them a company that would do it, but then I invited the principle to lunch and told them I was letting them go.
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I read all three of your references. What are you fucking kidding me??? You compare that to the crap MS has pulled over the years? Thanks for the laugh.
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Patents holding up the sale (Score:3, Informative)
If they bought SUSE... (Score:4, Interesting)
... does that mean we'd eventually see versions of vCenter Server and vCenter Client that run on something other than Windows? That would be nice.
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As much as I'd love that... I doubt it. vCentre is a pretty complex bunch of code, at least a large chunk of it in .net. It's also the flakiest part of the VMware infrastructure IME; the ESX hypervisor hasn't crashed on us since the earliest days of 2.0.
Not saying that VMware couldn't re-implement VC as a linux client but.. biggest issue with a port would be the plugins however; the integrated live P2V management (VMware Converter) runs on windows because it's easy to provide Linux services from a windows h
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I can't help but agree with all of this.
I also think that outside of some edge cases, VMware's biggest target market is Windows consolidation as IMHO, Windows server proliferation is a "feature" of Windows apps/services not playing well in the same machine.
If MS could ever come up with some kind of per-application on-demand virtualization that didn't require copying the entire OS environment into RAM but provided total insulation from the OS, it'd eliminate a big chunk of the need for virtualization.
Obvious
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Agree on the server proliferation thing 100% - I've come across dozens of companies that have been forced to run hundreds of massively overspecced servers because support agreements mandate that "no other apps can be installed on the box"; if you want to use tin that's supported you're stuck with buying a new box every 3-5yrs that ends up being three times as fast as it's predecessor (but the shoddily written app is still just as slow). VMware provided an easy answer to that and IMHO it's why they got so bi
You forgot something (Score:3, Informative)
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Yowza, nice comeback - hadn't heard hide nor hare of this one; although at ~18 months without an update I wonder how much momentum there is behind it.
Novell can't afford it (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Novell can't afford it (Score:4, Informative)
I think you missed the news about Novell looking to break itself up into pieces.
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They need SuSe and the clout they have to make sure that they have a suitable place to run all of their other software.
Seriously, VMWare is only interested in SuSE. They want a complete stack to compete with Microsoft's and Red Hat's VM product lines. I believe they recently picked up another company to fill another role in that stack, but I'm far too lazy to look it up right now. They do offer a version of Linux called Just Enough OS, but I've heard nothing spectacular about it.
Novell's other software is b
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Thats the great thing about selling 'SuSE' to someone else ... they still keep it for themselves as well. They can just restaff ( or keep staff depending on the deal ) and do the same thing.
As a general rule, 'buying a linux company' is an absolutely retarded idea.
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Except for the name, the partly-finished projects that aren't yet distributed, the reputation, the control of the project, etc... If Novell were to keep a group doing "the same thing", they wouldn't be much better off than someone else just forking the project.
VMWare would be "buying a Linux company", not "buying Linux". Like any corporate acquisition, it makes sense if the assets are worth more to VMWare than the amount they're paying for it.
Consider what VMWare might be able to do with SuSE. SuSE has a go
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I'm leaning toward NOVL being managed worse than JAVA, mainly because they had a chance to be relevant more than once. JAVA was relevant and they just couldn't change with the times or pick up on the right direction.
interesting move (Score:2, Informative)
Re:interesting move (Score:4, Informative)
ESX is not "based" on Red Hat, even using a loose reading of the word "based".
When you log onto the console operating system in a ESX environment, you are not, in fact, logging onto ESX at all.
The console operating system is a privileged VM running on the ESX server that solely exists to let you run command lines and the like, to discover information about the hypervisor's state, tell it what to do, and so forth. That has turned out to be the source of numerous security holes, hence the moving away from it.
C//
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Granted it's an easy verbal mistake to make. Have fun. I have been disgusted with VMWare's recent spate of acquisitions. vCloud underwhelms. They should through about $1B at core product development, aimed squarely at integrating features directly into vCenter. It's almost as if they don't know why their customers like their product.
C//
Not good for Xen. (Score:2)
If VMware buys SuSE that will be a blow to Xen.
Red Hat has already switched to KVM, and Ubuntu doesn't provide a Xen Dom0 kernel. If SuSE goes to a virtualization vendor that competes with products built on Xen, what options will be left for enterprise distros that provide Xen Dom0 support? Oracle Unbreakable Linux?
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Don't be surprised if EMC buys Citrix next.
People do build large Xen clouds when they could afford VMWare if they wanted it. EMC bought VMWare because it recognizes the power of virtualization. Now they're back for more. SuSE and Fedora are the only distros that are actually keeping up with Xen, and Fedora has been doing well only by two (awesome) community members who garner little inner-circle support.
Redhat has been chasing after KVM trying to be like VMWare, when it's VMWare that's been trying to be
Why buy? (Score:2)
Don't they know they can just download it for free?
Re:Not SuSE (Score:4, Interesting)
It won't be taken as seriously. You can *say* it's as good as an Enterprise Distro, it might even *be* as good. People that buy OSes for companies want to see a name they recognize. Right now those names are Red Hat (not available), SuSE, and to a less extent Canonical/Ubuntu (not available). Red Hat would probably be the one everyone wants to buy, but between being the market leader and being fairly profitable (not Microsoft or Apple levels of profitable, but plenty of money to keep everyone in kibble for sure), that's not much of an option.
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Red Hat would probably be the one everyone wants to buy, but between being the market leader and being fairly profitable (not Microsoft or Apple levels of profitable, but plenty of money to keep everyone in kibble for sure), that's not much of an option.
Red Hat has a market cap of around $7 billion. It's possible they will be acquired, if not by VMware, but the stock has always been high-priced relative to earnings, so that makes it unattractive. But buying SUSE is not a great alternative, IMO. Why would you want to own a company that is not profitable? Also, SUSE has no equivalent of the JBoss assets Red Hat has.
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SUSE is now profitable by itself. And quite deployed in some parts of the world / those continuing contracts might be nice.
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They could be acquired if enough of the preferred shares are available, but a good chunk, if not the majority of Red Hat's preferred shares are in the hands of company officers and Open Source partisans IIRC. Those people could simply refuse to sell the stock at any price. Since the company is doing well (relatively speaking), there's no real leverage to force the issue. Of course someone like Apple or Oracle could dangle so much money that people essentially couldn't refuse, but it would probably take m
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People that buy OSes for companies want to see a name they recognize.
Like, um, Novell?
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I'm not sure what your point is? My parent said that VMWare should buy Mandriva instead or SuSE. I said that buying Mandriva would be a mistake because companies want name recognition in their OS purchases, and that SuSE would be a better choice. Now you say that Novell has name recognition... This is true, but beside the point. Novell is not up for sale, its SuSE division is. Even if it were all of Novell that was up for sale your comment would reinforce my point, not counter it. Yes, having the Novel
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They won't have to call it SUSE, they could call it NovellOS, Novell Linux, anything they want. If they're buying a distro company it doesn't really matter which company has the best name, it matters that the product suits their customers' purposes. Microsoft does this all the time; who ever heard of "Stacker" before MS screwed them over?
What I wouldn't like is if they bought Suse just to ruin, kill, and bury it like MS did with Foxpro (I used to love that DBMS).
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Umm. Novell already owns SuSE. They have for years. They're trying to sell it not buy it. VMWare is the potential buyer and they have no name recognition in the OS field. Hence it would be good for them to buy a recognized name.
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Hmm, I guess I got it backwards then. SuSE is a lot more well known than VMWare, to most non-IT people (Like CEOs and CTOs).
The biggest reason for MS' dominance (besides the fact that it's hard to by a non-Apple computer without it preinstalled) is that nobody but nerds have ever heard of Linux.
Re:Not SuSE (Score:4, Informative)
Mandriva has lost 30 million euros, unable even to win over its' home market despite the government helping push them in education. It's dead, Jim!
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If you don't present google with the content they won't index it. If they index it, they cache it. I've noticed that some things can't be pulled from google's cache so I assume that they have agreements with some not to display caches. From this half-baked assumption I further assume that they have had the discussion with the newspapers, told them that news wants to be free, and that if they don't like it they can certainly deindex them.
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I think you can achieve that with:
<META NAME="ROBOTS" CONTENT="NOARCHIVE">
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Ssh, don't give them ideas.
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They used to make a vmware esx client for linux, but not anymore... If you run any of their highend products, you are stuck running windows boxes for management...
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Just make one Windows VM with the vSphere client installed that all the admins can log in to, and run whatever OS you want elsewhere. Done.
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VMWare is 80% held by EMC. I doubt EMC will sell. Regardless, such an acquisition would not pass antitrust inspection.
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It would never get past the DOJ or FTC or their European equivalents not even when Bush was President.
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Because many people abuse the mod system so your post wasn't modded for any reason for -1, disagree. Rather than focusing on modding up rather than down, jerks mod non-troll/non-flamebait posts as troll or flamebait to skew the discussion.
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Huh? eDirectory and Identity Manager are major products in that space. It's the preferred IDM solution for SAP, for example. Zenworks (especially with the endpoint security add-ons) has been doing well, and there are still a lot of GroupWise customers (running it on Linux, even). Novell Access Manager (take a look at what it does) is also a really terrific product in its arena as well.