Torvalds Becomes an American Citizen 654
netbuzz writes "Having brought his open-source work and family to the United States from Finland some time ago, Linus Torvalds has marked an important personal milestone by attaining US citizenship. A casual remark on the Linux kernel mailing list about registering to vote led to the community being in on the news. Torvalds has acknowledged being a bit of a procrastinator on this move, writing in a 2008 blog post: 'Yeah, yeah, we should probably have done the citizenship thing a long time ago, since we've been here long enough (and two of the kids are US citizens by virtue of being born here), but anybody who has had dealings with the INS will likely want to avoid any more of them, and maybe things have gotten better with a new name and changes, but nothing has really made me feel like I really need that paperwork headache again.' In that post he also expresses dislike for the American style of politics in which he will now be able to participate directly."
Interesting... (Score:5, Funny)
More importantly (Score:5, Funny)
Re:More importantly (Score:5, Funny)
Linus can get rid of the "Calvin Pissing on La Migra" sticker on his rear window. Or cover up "la Migra" with a BSD Devil.
http://vehiclevinyls.com/estore/html/page-view.asp?menuid=4106&gotorec=40 [vehiclevinyls.com]
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
If you use the Glenn Beck meme here, you can avoid being tagged flamebait.
I just heard on the internet that {Person's name} {did something horrible}. Now, I'm not saying that {Person's name} {did something horrible}. But it does strike me as a little suspicious that {Person's name} has never denied {doing something horrible}. Really, I'm not accusing {Person's Name} of {doing something horrible}. But if {Person's name} didn't {do something horrible}, why hasn't he denied {doing something horrible}?
For some reason, It's ok as long as you are making fun of the right here.
Re:More importantly (Score:4, Interesting)
It's because most of Slashdot works for a living. Right is for the owning class, left is for the working class. Unfortunately the left in most countries seems to be willing to work with the right for the latter's benefit, so I think I'll have to vote for Communists in the next election to retain at least a bit of my rights and freedoms.
And no, the irony doesn't escape me.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The right-wing is more acquainted with logic
You lost me.
"More acquainted" than whom? Everyone else? Does "the right-wing" have some sort of monopoly on rational thought?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Not really, no. It's just because you're caught up in 12 billion being a really big number, which it is. For some perspective, it's around 1%[1] of the budget just for the federal Department of Education and about one third of one percent of the total federal budget. For comparison, illegal immigrants would be somewhere in the vicinity of 3.5% of the population and about 6.8% of the school population[2], so it seems to me that they're eve
Re:More importantly (Score:5, Insightful)
The nice thing about the Left is that they keep their loons on the fringe. The Right is currently embracing theirs.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The right-wing is more acquainted with logic and therefore less likely to start frothing at the mouth and looking for a way to silence the speaker (however underhanded or childish) in response to any perceived slight or insult. It's part of why Glenn Beck may be admired or respected among right-leaning people for so long as his views make sense to them, but he is not the Messianic savior that many leftists seem to think Obama is.
Which is why Glenn Beck has an online "university," [wikipedia.org] was able to get thousands of people to attend a rally with to "restore America's honor" and "take back the Civil Rights Movement" [wikipedia.org] and has millions of adoring fans who tune in to watch him scream, rant, play his weird word games on the chalkboard and cry? Or why Bill O'reilly has books for children? I am always puzzled by people who seem to think that one political "wing" is composed entirely of mature, intelligent people who have thought out their positi
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's not enough to wave at logic when you pass it in the street. It's far better to employ it.
Re:More importantly (Score:5, Funny)
Have you EVER listened to what DR. Glenn Beck has to say? I've never heard him denounce Muslims or Islam in a derogatory context. This is the far left making such accusations. He's not a racist or Islam-aphobe. He frequently has guests from different backgrounds. He honored the work of MLK for an entire week or so, having his daughter (I think) as a guest.
Beck is not preaching hate. He has simply connected the dots to show all Americans that the federal government, and particularly the Democratic party, has been infested with Progressives, Socialists, Communists, Marxists, etc, leading our whole nation to no good end. The federal government is out of control. It has it's OWN agenda - not that of THE PEOPLE.
How many Socialist/Communist regimes do we have to see fall to understand that they simply don't work.
Beck advocates people to stand up for themselves, be responsible and self-sufficient -- to stop the government "entitlements" that chain people to wellfare and excessive government spending. That doesn't mean throwing people under the bus - it just means finding another way for them to earn a living, such as education and skills training programs, small business loans, etc. That isn't racism. It's common sense. You can't spend more than you earn -- just look at the debt crisis in America. The Progressives are trying to bury the U.S. economy in debt using the Cloward-Piven strategy. Current political issues are simply a side-show distraction while they continue to manipulate the country into failure. This is not good for any American, rich or poor, Republican, Democrat or other.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
"earned a PhD"?
As far as I can tell (and please correct me) Glenn Beck was given an honorary PhD from a not very well renowned evangelical university. That is not the same as earning a PhD.
To bring things slightly back on topic, far more deserving people, such as Linus Torvalds, have received honorary degrees from far more established universities (1 [wikipedia.org] and 2 [wikipedia.org]).
Yet, only pompous people, and certainly not Torvalds, would refer to themselves as Dr. on the basis of an honorary degree. Torvalds, who is educated to
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Glenn Beck puts forward some good concepts, like truth, integrity, hard work, and believing in America. Unfortunately, he is also a liar and a hypocrite who uses most of the immoral smear tactics that he accuses his enemies of using.
I don't read HuffPo or Media Matters, and I don't watch the Daily Show or the Colbert Report. I actually listen to Beck's radio
Re:More importantly (Score:5, Funny)
I have heard rumors that not only is Linus secretly Muslim, he is also secretly black.
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About the same time Michael Jackson did? :p
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...but does he run Linux?
Seeing how he stated "and maybe things have gotten better with a new name and changes"
the question should be:
Did he legally change his name to "Linux" ?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think he's referring to the practice at mass-immigration checkpoints like Ellis Island, where, when the processor couldn't spell particularly complicated names (for instance, those of Polish or Eastern European origin), that they'd just write down something Anglo-sounding and tell them to get used to it. He may have been afraid that he'd end up Linus Van Pelt rather than Linus Torvalds.
Derp (Score:5, Funny)
He took our jerbs!
Re:Derp (Score:4, Funny)
He took our jerbs!
Darl, is that you?
So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's his own business.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's his own business.
Don't you know anything? His name is known among some people so they have to pretend to understand him on a personal level and act like they personally know him and are very concerned about the most trivial and personal details of his life. That's what we do with celebrities.
Hey, did you know that some woman you've never met is having relationship problems with some man you've never met? Who gives a fuck? Oh yeah, one of them can act/sing/dance so that makes it really really important! Let's not do this with programmers. Please.
Epictetus said something about how talking about the affairs of others leads to small-mindedness. He couldn't have been more on the money.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. Although on the plus side it is probably a good thing that people who actually contribute to society and progress are being talked about with such interest. Pity such attention is usually focused on people who sing songs and abuse substances but still manage to get paid huge sums for their dubious efforts.
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Epictetus said something about how talking about the affairs of others leads to small-mindedness. He couldn't have been more on the money.
Maybe so but did you know that Epictetus was having an affair with one of his slavegirls?
immigration category (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm more interested what his immigration category was? Mine was EB-2 (Person with advanced degree: Master or Ph.D). I suspect his was EB-1 (Person of national interest).
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Not really. One should be classified in the most preferential category to begin with. Additional work experience will not let you move up a category. So, you should "fill any gaps" (like get that graduate degree) first, or at least while on a non-immigrant visa. You can't really go from EB-2 to EB-1.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
I'm more interested what his immigration category was? Mine was EB-2 (Person with advanced degree: Master or Ph.D). I suspect his was EB-1 (Person of national interest).
Probably an "O-1", a rare beast.
Re:immigration category (Score:4, Funny)
More likely "O log n"
Re:immigration category (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
LOL.
Seriously, though, the idea is to filter in those who are likely to be a net benefit to those already here, and filter out the rest.
So, you don't want to displace existing workers, or depress the wage base. The sad part is that too many immigrants "cheat" giving the rest of us a bad reputation, and the process, even if you meet the criteria, is excruciatingly slow.
It used to be that to get an employment-based green card, you generally had to be here on an H1B visa, which had strict limits to how long on
Re:immigration category (Score:5, Informative)
I'd like to know as well.
According to the Immigration and Nationality Act, the annual immigrant visa quota is 140,000 for employment-based (EB-x) immigration. EB-1, EB-2 and EB-3 each receive 28.6% of the total number, while EB-4 and EB-5 each receives 7.1% separately.
For the current 40,000 quota of EB-2 preference, each country receives 7%, with 3,000 available for China and India, 2,500 for the other countries, and 9,000 remaining for use by those countries in need, such as India and China.
Linus could also have come in through one of the 32,000 diversity (DV) visas available to Europeans.
Once here (legally with a green card). having American citizen children or an American citizen spouse is one of the fastest ways to be come a citizen (3 years as a spouse, 5 years for children).
The best guide to understanding US immigration laws is this handy poster [reason.org].
Re:immigration category (Score:5, Informative)
H1B is a non-immigrant visa, good for three years, renewable for another three, and then year over year as long as a permanent residency adjustment of status petition has not yet been adjudicated.
To become a naturalized citizen, one must be a lawful permanent resident first, for five years. To become a lawful permanent resident, requires an immigrant visa, basically, a "Green Card". To get a Green Card, that is not based on family sponsorship, but employment sponsorship, one is placed into several prioritized categories:
EB-1: Persons of National Interest or Extraordinary Ability (Nobel prize winners, etc.);
EB-2: Persons with Advanced Degrees;
EB-3: Skilled Workers;
EB-4: Special Immigrants;
EB-5: Visa Investors ($1M and creating ten American jobs, or $500k and investing in a rural area paying 150% of the national wage).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I immigrated from Canada to the U.S. for lower taxes and better health care.
WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait what? He is a constructive member of society? Hes already contributed to the American culture before he was a citizen? The entire idea of making immigration more difficult is crazy bullshit? *mind explodes*
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Funny)
no, no, no... the proper term is GNU/Anchor Baby.
Re: (Score:2)
Bravo, sir. Bravo.
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You win the thread.
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That implies that Linus had a spawn of hairy love-children with Richard Stallman... ..ew.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just one more reason we need to repeal the 14th Amendment! Nevermind the parts about Due Process and Equal Protection, or the fact that we're ALL immigrants; we have to quash further immigration at any price!
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
He has TWO kids here? And he had those while NOT being a full american citizen? He had Anchor babies? Someone call FOX news please. We cannot have this filth just coming here and knocking out brats! Wait what? He is a constructive member of society? Hes already contributed to the American culture before he was a citizen? The entire idea of making immigration more difficult is crazy bullshit? *mind explodes*
I realize you are being sarcastic but I would like to point out that he was here legally to begin with. Weird isn't it how some people can actually navigate the Byzantine immigration process instead of just sneaking across the boarder?
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Linus is an educated and skilled worker who is responsible for the underpinnings of large section of the digital economy. He's not exactly the type of person who's likely to need to sneak across the boarder. Chances are high that the only lawn he's mowed since arriving is his own.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are high that the only lawn he's mowed since arriving is his own.
Chances are even higher than the guy mowing his lawn now doesn't have the same paperwork that Linus had before he became a citizen.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Insightful)
Does that mean Jose can break the law by living here illegally?
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Funny)
Does that mean Jose can break the law by living here illegally?
All evidence suggests that, yes, he can do so quite easily.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Then they can stay the fuck out! How hard is this to understand?
I may disagree with a foreign country's immigration policy. I might really, very strongly, in the most heartfelt way disagree with a foreign country's immigration policy. I might think they're a bunch of jackasses for having such a policy. None of that gives me the right to break their laws.
Coincidentally, highly educated and highly skilled people from Finland aren't causing the USA's illegal immigration problem.
You might as well complain that people who have not so much as a high school degree have a really difficult time becoming brain surgeons. Horrible discrimination, that is.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The illegal immigration problem isn't nearly as bad as the puppets directed by the Koch would have you believe.
What you fail to understand is that people who come here illegal know it's illegal but living here under the radar is the best alternative they have.
If going to Canada illegally was the only way I could a minimum scratch level of a life for my family, I would break their migration laws. So would you.
It's not about rights, or illegality. It's about surviving. Once the US congress realizes that the s
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Insightful)
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."
It was this notion that built the most powerful country on the Earth. It's abandoning it that has caused said country to decline. People trying to improve their lot usually end up improving plenty of other people's lot too; the worse off they were to begin with, the more driven they are. What the heck happened to you to forget that? Megacorps?
Bloody Hell! I can understand selfish psychopaths - and will argue with them from the understanding that they only care of themselves - but I'll never, ever, understand people who are acting against their own interests, despite presumably being intelligent enough to understand them.
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Of course they weren't breaking our laws to be here. We had an open immigration policy then. As long as you weren't a member of a disfavored race, anyway.
Who is this "our"? Do you own the land illegal immigrants are standing on?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They are the ones who will contribute most to our economy and pay for your and my social security when we retire
This is so ridiculous I am undoing moderation to reply.
First of all I'd rather my children be contributing to the economy and social security when I retire. There is no shortage of American workers in the US right now. In fact there is a surplus. Putting these people to work will do more for our economy than hiring illegals. Not only will unemployment be lower but the cost of unemployment, food stamps and other welfare benefits payed to currently unemployed or underemployed Americans will decrease. It
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
$8-$10 per hour plus minimal benefits, employment tax, workers comp. and reasonable working conditions is *way* more than most farmers are paying illegal immigrants.
This was in 2004. I was making $6.50/hr. Minimum wage was $5.15. I had no benefits of any kind including workers comp as farm labor in Wisconsin was exempt at that time.
My question to you is: If farmers aren't paying employment taxes, how is illegal labor going to pay for my social security as you stated in your previous post?
The jobs you lost to illegals are still there, it just costs the farmer less to hire illegals than it costs to hire you, even at $8 per hour. The farmer is doing the natural, free-market thing and hiring the cheaper labor. The illegals are doing the natural free-market thing and taking the work. You could take the work too, but you'd have to lower your wage and expectations.
I didn't have a choice. Like I said in the previous post the farmer just cut my hours to nothing. I ended up taking the pay cut by getting a different job that only paid minim
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The lazy ones *do* stay the fuck out. It is the hard-working ones who try repeatedly to get into the country. To work hard, better their family, improve our cities and economy, and pay our Social Security taxes. Would it be a such a terrible thing to give people a way to do this good work legally? Bad laws reward bad behavior. Good laws reward good behavior. Our current immigration policy is one of the worst laws we have.
The second they break our laws to be here they demonstrate a belief that we owe them something. We don't. It's that simple.
An analogy can be made to your private residence. It doesn't matter if I'm the nicest most hard-working guy in the world. If you tell me that I am not welcome in your home, I don't get to stay there against your wishes because I think I should be allowed to. The term for that is trespassing. The fact that I'm willing to do your yardwork and landscaping doesn't override your wis
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The second they break our laws to be here they demonstrate a belief that we owe them something.
Tell that to Rosa Parks...
Of course the truth is it isn't THEIR right to freedom of movement we should be most worried about, it is OUR economy they will improve, directly through their hard work and indirectly through the hard work of their progeny. One of their children could be the world's next Linus. It is unlikely their children could be the next Linus if their kid is born in a small town in Mexico.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I dated a Brazilian girl a few years ago who was here illegally, and it certainly gave me a lot more sympathy for the situation our immigration laws put some people in. She came here legally (I believe on a student visa - she was a journalist back in Minas Gerais, and was here for some sort of communications program at a college near Boston), got a job to cover expenses while she was here, and ended up pregnant by an American guy. When the visa expired, she stayed. I never inquired too closely how she wa
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If someone isn't willing to endure a process that provides no guarantees and is instead willing to risk it all to come here, then they should reconsider how much they want to be here. Yeah that makes sense.
Because clearly I am entitled to immigrate to any country I please. Therefore, because of my entitlement, any immigration laws that wouldn't let me move to that country are flawed and should be flippantly ignored rather than respected as reflecting the intent of a soverign nation. It's all about me, baby, and anything that interferes with what I want to do is wrong even if that means breaking the laws and trespassing on the foreign soil of a nation that doesn't owe me anything. Because I take up space an
Oh stop (Score:5, Insightful)
You are trying to make an issue where there isn't one. Torvalds was here legally, he had his green card. You can live in the US permanently and never get citizenship, legally, if you wish to.
Thus far I have yet to encounter someone trying to make an issue of people who are legal permanent residents. You seem to be building a straw man ot pick a fight where there is not one.
When you start shouting and being absurd just to start a fight you are no better than those you are trying to attack.
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Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
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I lived in Texas while a legal non-immigrant on a work visa.
I had no trouble, and was missed when I had to return to Canada because of a lay off.
Maybe it was my NRA membership.
OTOH, there's jury duty... (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, I'm not sure the whole 'WooHoo, I can now vote in the US' is worth it - which seems to be the only other *practical* difference between a GC-holder, and a citizen.
Plus, IIRC, the US insist that I'd have to give up my UK citizenship/passport (although, from various friends, I've heard that the UK just send your passport back to you with a "you appear to have misplaced your passport" note
So, whatever floats your boat, Linus, but I don't think it's for me.
Simon.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey, jury duty is important.
Smart people are smart enough to get out of jury duty if they want to, but ask yourself: if falsely accused of a crime, wouldn't I want someone on the jury to be at least as smart as me?
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Of course, most people charged with a crime actually did it, and in those cases, the defense's motivation is to get people on the jury who are even stupider than the defendant.
Re:OTOH, there's jury duty... (Score:5, Interesting)
Smart? I want someone who can look at the facts and recognize outside bias when it presents itself.
Smart doesn't cut it alone.
And yes, Jury duty is critical to the system. I think there should be a tax right off for Jury duty.
Re:OTOH, there's jury duty... (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, what I actually don't understand is why he went to live in the states. I mean, he's from fucking Finland. It's a fucking awesome country, and it's surrounded by Sweden (Tits), Norway (Awesomest place on earth, full of church-burners), and Russia (Best women on earth). So, he left an amazing country with a huge cultural heritage and an educated population in Europe, to go the New Rome, land of mcdonalds? That sounds like a stupid move to me.
Re:OTOH, there's jury duty... (Score:4, Interesting)
No, he left to go to the United States, land of companies willing to pay him for working on things related to his hobby, because large segments of the economy have become dependent on him. Last I heard, wasn't he living in Oregon? You sounds like your judging the entire country based on Kansas.
You appear to be misinformed (Score:3, Informative)
Neither the UK nor the USA require that you renounce your UK citizenship when you take US citizenship. See http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html [state.gov] and http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/dualnationality [homeoffice.gov.uk].
In fact, until 2002 there was no way to give up British citizenship - now you can get a form from the British embassy, fill it in and send it to the UK government. It doesn't even have to be permanent as you can reacquire your UK citizenship by filling in another form and sendi
He can do whatever he wants... (Score:3, Funny)
In that post he also expresses dislike for the American style of politics in which he will now be able to participate directly."
...but just don't email the POTUS and call him a p***k!
So, now he's ready (Score:5, Funny)
to have his BMI and IQ numbers interchanged.
Matti (Score:3, Funny)
trust me, a lot of born citizens feels the same (Score:2)
I can't stand American politics.
"he will now be able to participate directly"? (Score:2)
Atleast he plans to vote (Score:4, Funny)
In the last US presidential election only about 60% [gmu.edu] of the people eligible to vote, actually did. However, I bet a much greater number of people complained about the president/candidates. I remember reading somewhere that even though Hollywood (Puff Daddy etc..) started the whole "Vote of Die" campaign to get young people (age 18-24) to vote, approximately 1 in 10 actually did.
I always tell people, if you didn't vote in in the election, don't complain.
Re:Atleast he plans to vote (Score:4, Funny)
And I always tell people, if you voted in the last election, it's all your fault.
Citizenship Test (Score:5, Funny)
Quizzer: what are the three branches of government?
Linus: Why have three branches? I'd do a git merge legislative executive judiciary into a single monolithic government over which I'm benevolent dictator. Screw those crazy microgovernment people!
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had you known shit about finnish citizenship and the life in finland, you would eat your words about that 'monolithic single government'
This is why the world is unfair. You have a lower UID than me, yet failed to get an obviously-about-Linux joke. On Slashdot. Please turn in your geek card at the door.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
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There's something wrong in your kernel. Please reinstall and configure whoooosh.c and try again.
Immigration. (Score:3, Interesting)
I married my wife overseas. Barely a month later we started preparing paperwork for her green card. It was a relatively effortless process. Going from green card to citizen was just as trivial, although it wasn't cheap and got even more expensive shortly after we applied. Often times it comes down to the individual you're dealing with. We have friends who were in a similar situation, but were married longer, and they had to deal with a jerk who gave them a hard time, partly due to them having a baby. But the process was generally the same otherwise. But this is probably one of the easier ways to immigrate.
On the other hand, an uncle of mine wanted to come to the US with his family and had to wait 7 years before he got the papers. There was a ton of paperwork, some expense and having to deal with lotteries to get a place in line. Part of the reason for this is because of people who come here illegally. Illegals aren't only coming from Mexico. It's relatively trivial to get a visitor's visa and just not go back. In certain communities it's not that difficult to get fake paperwork.
From what I've seen it's actually a lot easier to immigrate to the US than it is to immigrate to most countries. And, the US is far, far less restrictive about what you can do when you're here. In some countries, on a work visa you can't even get a mobile phone. You have to purchase one under a citizen's name. Good luck trying to buy a car and getting it registered, or owning property.
But too many people, Americans ironically, are intent on perpetuating this notion that America is hostile to foreigners. Foreign immigration, unlike anywhere else in the world comprises the backbone of the country. That said, I have no sympathy for illegal immigration. Countless people have made the effort to go through the process legally. And we have this huge group of people who have decided they don't want to deal with those hassles. So instead, they open themselves up to exploitation, both from those helping them across the border and those who ultimately decide to employee them in the States.
Even more offensive is the suggestion by many that we should accept illegal immigration and that we're bigots by not doing so. We can't deport those already here. We have to give them green cards. But, it should have a few conditions. First, they have to have clean records and they have to be able to find work. Secondly, depending on age, they have to learn a reasonable level of English within a few years. I don't think that's unreasonably at all. But also important, and this should happen first, the borders have to be closed. Build a proper wall and put national guard troops along the border. And the Mexican border isn't the sole problem. Employers who hire illegals need to be dealt with harshly. Not just fined, they should be put out of business. Period. We need to deter illegal immigration as much as possible while embracing legal immigration.
Torvalds did it the right way.
Dear Linus (Score:5, Funny)
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The US has this thing called "voting". It's not just about the 4 year change of president, there's a huge amount that can be voted on locally, particularly on local positions in govt, school boards, firecheif, sheriff etc. As a tax payer, you have no say, as a citizen, you can get involved.
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Unlike most of Europe where citizens 18-20 have to go into the army or other duty for two years
I call bullshit. Please enumerate this list that encompasses "most of Europe" that has such a requirement.
Re:The Real American System (Score:5, Informative)
Unlike most of Europe where citizens 18-20 have to go into the army or other duty for two years
I call bullshit. Please enumerate this list that encompasses "most of Europe" that has such a requirement.
Not most, but about half, not all citizens, but only men, not for two years but only 6 to 12 months. However, the list includes: Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Finland, Greece, Denmark and Serbia
Re:The Real American System (Score:4, Informative)
That's 11 countries of geographic Europe, which covers 46 countries, so that's not "about half", but "less than a quarter".
Taking only the EU countries into account, your list of 11 shrinks to 5 (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Switzerland, Norway, and Serbia aren't part of the EU), while there are 27 EU countries (one of them, Cyprus, outside geographic Europe). That's less than a fifth.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I don't suppose you're European, as your statement on conscription in Europe is blatantly false. Most European countries have abolished conscription. Austria has military service that lasts less than a year, Albania is in the process of abolishing conscription, Finnish service is 6-12 months. Norwegian service is a year and German service is 6 months. Oh yeah and Greeks have a 9 month draft. Hell, Ukraine is schedules to end its mandatory military service program.
I probably forgot a couple countries but cer
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I'd wager that for every informed vote that gets cast there are 5 votes by people who don't even know what they are voting for but vote automatically for a republican/democrat because thats what they've always voted for.
Hell, my guess is there are even more people who vote who were just told by their union who to vote for and they do it.
Democracy is a good thing, but it only works with informed vote
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazing. Just three years ago, people were saying how they couldn't imagine why anyone would want to come to a country rushing headlong into fascism and therefore an impending so
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Comments like this wish that this was filed under politics.
2. Dude he is from Finnland. I doubt that he feels the US is rushing toward socialism.
Other than that welcome to the list of great Americans that includes Albert Einstein and Alexander Gram Bell.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:5, Informative)
From the Wikipedia.
"Bell was a British subject throughout his early life in Scotland and later in Canada until 1882, when he became a naturalized citizen of the United States. In 1915, he characterized his status as: "I am not one of those hyphenated Americans who claim allegiance to two countries."
Alexander Gram Bell was an American by choice.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, it's "socialism" that's hurting our county. Not the constant erosion of citizens rights, nope. Not the constant and gratuitous government spending. Not the off-shoring of nearly all our industry because we'd rather have a cheaper item regardless of the human cost overseas. Not the constant War-State mentality where we have to fight "Terrorism", "Drugs", "Copyright", etc, etc, and again, pay for it. Not the fact that our country is basically being run _by_ corporations _for_ corporations (heavy lobbying).
No, it's the thought that maybe, just maybe, some of the spending government does should actually help _citizens_ that's hurting us.
Seriously?
P.S. Sorry for the OT comment. I just get so tired of hearing this BS Glenn Beck inspired bullshit.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:4, Interesting)
Not the degradation of income for 99% of the population [slate.com].
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, in all fairness, Neither side is willing to do anything about all of that either.
I just get so tired of hearing this BS major party inspired bull
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, to be fair, the Soviet Union had constant and gratuitous government spending, an erosion of citizens rights, and a constant war-state mentality. Socialism with the Big S is generally not the same thing as Social Democracy. The "Socialism" of Western Europe was Social Democracy, not the Socialism of the red flags; the Marxist "Scientific Socialism" of the Internationale that most people call Communism today. Except the people who think they're being cleaver and claim that "pure communism" was suppos
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Fine, let's make things as simple as possible. "True" socialism is collective ownership of means of production. So long as you can privately own a factory in your country, it's not socialistic.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Except what you describe is crony capitalism not socialism.
moron. (Score:3, Interesting)
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/ [undp.org]
ignorant people like you are easy to keep in servitude by getting fed the bullshit that is 'greatest nation on earth'. good going !!
Re:moron. (Score:4, Funny)
I heard Finn's live in giant wooden shoes, which seems kind of cool. They also fought back the Soviets with nothing but live fish for ammunition, so they've also got huge balls. I would like to marry a Finnish girl, maybe, but I would be intimidated trying to explain to her father why I'd be a worthy son-in-law when I have never, in fact, raided the English coast. Yeah, Norfinswedewayland sounds like an awesome place.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
No, but he could become governor of California, though...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I was going to say "But Finland has much higher taxes!" Then I checked... the highest tax bracket there is 30%.
You've been misinformed. Not a quantitative error but a process error.
True, their income tax is only about 1/3. But....
In the us, we (mostly?) have low sales tax, no VAT, and high income taxes.
In finland, their "sales tax" aka V.A.T. is roughly 1/4, although lower for some things. I specifically remember books had a relatively low VAT, only like 10%.
So, if you're a wage slave, spending about what you earn, your total tax burden in finland is well over 60% by the time you add sin taxes and such. I suppos