Video Review of Hivision's $100 ARM-Based Android Laptop 220
Charbax writes "The Android laptops are coming. Thanks to cheap ARM-powered laptops made in China, and the latest, most optimized Android software, we can soon buy usable $100 laptops in all the supermarkets. In this video, I test the web browsing speed on the new Rockchip rk2808 ARM9-based PWS700CA laptop by Shenzhen-based Hivision Co Ltd. Web browsing on AJAX-heavy websites is surprisingly snappy, and could only be even faster if ARM11, ARM Cortex A8 or A9 processors were used and if it was configured with slightly more than 128MB RAM. How soon will Google release the $100 Google laptop?"
Other distros? (Score:4, Insightful)
If I can put ubuntu on it I will be interested.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think you'd want to run Ubuntu with a full-blown Gnome desktop but it should do fine with Debian, a light-weight window manager, and a sensible selection of applications.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe enlightenment. It runs well on my openmoko. I have run it on my eeepc as well. What I would like to see is a netbook with a keyboard and touchscreen, but no touchpad. Enlightenment works well with touch screens.
Re:Other distros? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
> The Smart Q5/Q7 come with Ubuntu installed, and they have a similar speed
> (ARM) CPU.
How much RAM? What desktop?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hivision's last laptop turned out to be vapoware so I don't expect to see this one either.
The $98 Hivision Mini Note [youtube.com] never [google.com] materialized [google.com], despite tons [gadgetreview.com] of [techvideoblog.com] press [gizmodo.com]. It's been almost 18 months since the supposed release date and they still don't even exist on ebay. [ebay.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Not as vaporware as the CherryPal Africa [hep-cat.de] turned out to be. CherryPal actually takes orders for their $99 netbook [slashdot.org] but nobody has ever received the actual product [mobileread.com]. And some people did not even got their money back.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
The other argument you can consider is Debian doesn't do shit vs. Ubuntu keeps breaking shit.
There, now I've pissed everybody off.
If your gona piss everyone off, do it right. (Score:2, Funny)
Im installing Windows Vista on mine
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And don't forget Ubuntu Netbook Remix
http://www.canonical.com/projects/ubuntu/unr [canonical.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Enlightenment has finger dragging support in its scroll and list widgets. Even desktop installs of enlightenment behave that way.
Re:Other distros? (Score:5, Insightful)
Other distros? Sure would be nice, but the fact that they're ARM means it probably won't be ready just yet. This, by the way, is fantastic news.
The greatest thing about these laptops is, if they're as good as the article claims, the fact that they're ARM processors means that there won't be a version of Windows out for them for ages/ever.
That means that Microsoft can't just use its market share to bury the Linux versions by heavily discounting the OS, while using their deals with retailers to make sure they only stock the Windows versions, all the while pressuring the laptop manufacturers to increase the specs on them so they can run Windows 7 instead of XP which they're selling for so cheap (to compete with 'free') they're not making any money off it.
Re: (Score:2)
Other distros? Sure would be nice, but the fact that they're ARM means it probably won't be ready just yet.
SHR [openmoko.org] would probably work with a bit of kernel tweaking.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The greatest thing about these laptops is, if they're as good as the article claims, the fact that they're ARM processors means that there won't be a version of Windows out for them for ages/ever.
Oops.... [maplin.co.uk]
Re: (Score:2)
Huh? There's plenty out there.
Here's one http://i.imgur.com/8bChG.jpg [imgur.com]. Another here http://imgur.com/8bChG [imgur.com] - this one was part of a series of "training" packages provided to retail sales people.
I suspect you're probably just not noticing them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
True, I have Gentoo running on both of my two ARMs (pun intended). But it's not really a distro issue anyway. The Linux kernel runs on more architectures than any other OS, and getting a distro to work is only a matter of time. And you can always install Linux from scratch.
Notice the lack of the word "support [iki.fi]" above. I'm not that interested in support, I'm more interested in whether something works. For example, there's some kind of support relationship between my laptop and Windows XP, but I find that L
720p playback on a 800x480 screen?? (Score:3, Interesting)
From the article: "800×480 screen, 720p Video playback support"
Someone care to enlighten me as to how you get a 720 progressive-scan image on a screen that is only 480 pixels high?
Re:720p playback on a 800x480 screen?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Easy, through the VGA out port.
Re:720p playback on a 800x480 screen?? (Score:5, Informative)
Sure. You can download a 720p video, and play it on the device. You don't have to pre-convert it to 800x480 (or 400x240, like I have to for my n810). That's all that spec means, is the source video can be 720p.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
External output? That would be incredible.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:720p playback on a 800x480 screen?? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
same on gizmodo, engadget, ...
Cheap Enough (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
[...] Ideally something with a screen that works outside, so I can use it in the park.
A park you say... I've heard rumors of this place. Please, tell me more.
Re: (Score:2)
Here we go ...
IDP Multimedia Notebook [ebay.com]
Cheaper enough for you? Plus this one is built to last :)
Re: (Score:2)
I'll believe it when I can buy it. (Score:5, Insightful)
We've been hearing about ARM laptops/netbooks/smartbooks for over a year now. They were demoed at CES 2009, and promised to be delivered during 2009. Nothing came. They were demoed at CES 2010, and promised to be delivered during 2010.
I can't wait to slap down $200 to $300 for an ultralight, long-battery life, ARM-based netbook running Linux. But until they make it out of video reviews and trade shows and into stores or online for purchase, what good are they?
Lenovo Skylight is pretty much the first firm offering we've seen, but it ain't cheap. The Touchbook seems to be a Beagleboard in a nice case, and isn't being mass-produced like other netbooks. Now that the iPad is out (with an ARM-based processor) and MSI et al. have ARM offerings in the pipeline, with manufacturers finally grow some balls, realize they can offer a non-Intel machine and still use Intel on their other machines, and offer us some cheap ARM netbooks?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I'll believe it when I can buy it. (Score:4, Informative)
The Smart Q5 and Q7 are shipping. The Nokia 770, N800 and N810 all shipped. The iPad is shipping in a couple of months.
None of those are netbooks. They're all tablet-format devices. As far as I can tell, the Touchbook is the only ARM-based netbook (in the sense of having a dedicated keyboard) that you can actually go and order right now (and it's actually backordered, so you can't in fact receive it anytime soon).
Fine if you want a tablet - I don't. I want an ARM netbook.
Re:I'll believe it when I can buy it. (Score:5, Interesting)
I thought everyone knew what happened in 2008. At the 2008 CES dozens of ARM "netbooks" running Linux were displayed and a big hit at the show. They were produced on ARM and Linux because Intel didn't have Atom yet so no cheap x86 processor with any horsepower, and Microsoft charged $89 for XP. The Linux netbook was heavily hyped at CES that year and MS took notice. They went to the netbook makers and asked what they needed to do to make sure every netbook came with windows. The Netbook makers said give us windows for $10 and we won't produce the Linux Netbooks. As a result MS priced windows for netbooks at $8 (ask for a windows refund on a netbook, they will offer $8, this has been documented). Intel at the same time produced the atom because they didn't want mass market ARM netbooks hitting the streets and eroding the x86 monopoly. They were able to produce it so quickly because all they did was basically die shrink the original pentium processor (didn't want it to be fast or it could erode regular notebook sales).
So you ask what killed the Arm Netbook? The answer is the WinTel duopoly got involved and killed it to prevent it from eroding the X86 Windows monopoly. MS and Intel work VERY hard to make sure ARM/Linux Netbooks aren't produced in volume or at prices that will hurt them. Cash incentives, marketing help and all sorts of bad behavior is going on to prevent this market from developing because they KNOW everyone wants a $100 cheap little web tablet/netbook that doesn't weigh much and gets great battery life and that the first one to market will set sales records. Hell the half-assed netbook that has crappy performance set sales records because of price, weight and battery life. The first person to hit good performance, under $200 and with at least 8 hours of battery is going to sell hundreds of millions of them. MS and Intel will do almost anything to make sure that it's not an ARM netbook (MS because the only OS they have that runs on ARM is windowsCE and Mobile, which are both very dated and very crappy compared to Android or Moblin) that's the first one to that goal.
Mark my words, you won't see mass market ARM netbooks produced unless a large government gets involved in an Anti-Trust action against both MS and Intel at the same time.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe linux on arm will take off because android is a linux distribution the masses will accept?
Re:I'll believe it when I can buy it. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
h incentives, marketing help and all sorts of bad behavior is going on to prevent this market from developing because they KNOW everyone wants a $100 cheap little web tablet/netbook that doesn't weigh much and gets great battery life [...]
I don't. Much like tablet computers, I have never been able to figure out what I'd use a netbook for (especially an ARM-based one).
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'll believe it when I can buy it. (Score:4, Insightful)
At the 2008 CES dozens of ARM "netbooks" running Linux were displayed and a big hit at the show. They were produced on ARM and Linux because Intel didn't have Atom yet so no cheap x86 processor with any horsepower, and Microsoft charged $89 for XP.
$89 as the wholesale price - the OEM price - for XP?
Quoted for purchases of 10,000 units? 100,000? A million? To put this in perspective, the brand-name Win 7 netbook has already broken the $300 price point. HP Mini 210-1010NR 10.1-Inch Black Netbook [amazon.com]
So you ask what killed the Arm Netbook?
Sales.
No one in big box retail fought longer and harder to make a go of Linux than WalMart.
Nothing came of it.
Walmart.com currently lists 111 laptops, 48 desktops, all Windows, and all but a bare handful running Win 7 Home Premium.
What I find most surprising - and significant - is the disappearance of the netbook from WalMart's retail shelves.
Down to a lone Dell Nickelodeon [walmart.com] branded laptop for kids.
It could just be that WalMart's customers are finding other products more compelling: Kodak Zi8 Aqua Pocket 1080p Video Camera [walmart.com] $180.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> As a result MS priced windows for netbooks at $8..
The lowest pricing I have ever heard from anyone halfway reliable is $15 but that isn't the whole story. If they ship Windows they also get to ship the bundleware which means they probably actually make a profit.
> So you ask what killed the Arm Netbook?
You forgot two other major players in killing the netbook. The OEMs and the retailers. So sit right down and I'll tell 'yall the rest of the story.
Netbooks were originally imagined as inexpensive, s
Re:I'll believe it when I can buy it. (Score:4, Interesting)
Nintendo DSi once somebody cracks it :)
DS Linux works on the DS but the low memory and WEP WiFi limits what you can do with it.
Android really fit for Netbooks? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok, so Android is pretty resource saving. It is pretty impressive that it can display 720p videos.
But now to the problem. Android is optimised for a touch screen. So, just to give an example, as also shown in the video in the article: When scrolling while browsing, you have to grab the page and "throw" it upwards. Also, there are buttons for zooming in and out.
So it will be interesting to see how some other minimal linuxes would fare.
But anyway, for that price, it is probably still worth it.
Re:Android really fit for Netbooks? (Score:4, Informative)
Ok, so Android is pretty resource saving. It is pretty impressive that it can display 720p videos.
No it isn't. Well, it's impressive that something that small can play H.264 (hell, I'm old enough that I still think it's impressive that it can store and play full-motion videos at any resolution), but it has nothing to do with Android. Pretty much all ARM SoCs come with a dedicated coprocessor for video decoding. It's all offloaded here (which has the nice side effect that you can play back videos without stealing CPU cycles from other tasks), so it will work with any OS that has drivers.
Interesting, but not the iPad-killer (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite an interesting device. I might even want one myself, but only if it gets support for YouTube. I didn't see any mention of how much storage it comes with, but I would hope that it at least comes with a couple of USB ports and an SD card slot -- and isn't hampered by the limitations of built-in storage like the G1. I would also hope that it would support PDF (which might make it a reasonable e-book reader).
The demo showed the virtual keyboard, which I thought was a bit of a waste, especially since it was not clear that the display was touch-sensitive.
As for the hope that a company like WalMart would pick this up and sell it for $100 or less, I don't think that will happen. Most of the folks that shop at WalMart are not techies, and in its present form, this is a netbook only a techie would put up with. It's certainly not the iPad-killer, even though I personally would not buy an iPad (or Kindle, or any other platform that allows the vendor to "repossess" content).
Re: (Score:2)
It has 1 USB port and an SD slot. It looks like it has space for a second USB port, but the specs don't mention it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The iPad needs to be released, and be wildly successful, before we start talking about 'iPad-killers.'
Re:Interesting, but not the iPad-killer (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Interesting, but not the iPad-killer (Score:4, Informative)
As for the hope that a company like WalMart would pick this up and sell it for $100 or less
WalMart needs product to fill 2500 stores.
Hivision's [hvsco.com] site doesn't quote a retail price. It doesn't quote a wholesale price.
Their English language contacts use Hotmail and Skype. The company has been around for about ten years. Mostly they seem to make digital photo frames and Win CE netbooks.
Sure, the web browsing may be snappy... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Get a few hundred million 800x480 screens into the wild and maybe some web developers will take notice and start developing more accessible pages?
Re: (Score:2)
Well in a sense that many pages expect to layout at 1024 horizontal pixels. Even with pages that flow properly, 480 pixels high still makes for a lot of scrolling.
I wouldn't buy one myself but it seems no coincidence that Apple's new device has standard XGA, 1024x768.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have 3 Android devices and all of them do a fairly good job of rendering websites for "Mobile" display. In fact, I am currently working on porting my Wordpress sites to a mobile friendly auto-switching theme bases on visits from mobile devices.
Just because it's laptop shaped doesn't mean it will display websites like a full PC would. It'll display mobile versions, which are still perfect for that resolution.
I just want Cyanogen to make a mod for this sucker.
"...most websites suck..." (Score:3)
You got that right.
Re: (Score:2)
Zoom (Score:3, Insightful)
The iPhone has far lower resolution that that and some folks seem to like it for browsing..
It has lower actual resolution, but you are really viewing websites at more like 1024x768 or so scaled down, then zooming in on portions. But even in the zoomed out view, I can read pretty much everything on the Slashdot homepage.
Without touch controls on the screen zooming is way too annoying on a laptop.
Re:Zoom (Score:4, Interesting)
Milestone (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
At $100, I'm going to buy it for the pickers in the warehouse I work for. I've been wanting to switch to a digital pick system, but the devices are either to fragile to drop from 20' up in a lift or too expensive to buy.
This is probably still too fragile and not quite so cheap that I'd be entirely cavalier about breakage, but I could buy 3 of these instead of a netbook(or 1 Office license!), cover them in spray foam and cannibalize the first break to fix the next.
If only I could buy them now.
Re: (Score:3)
I've been wanting to switch to a digital pick system, but the devices are either to fragile to drop from 20' up in a lift or too expensive to buy.
Just use a damned kleenex. They easily survive a 20' fall, and they're much more sanitary than a digital pick system.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, "I would buy too, if it just had ...".
It will be missing good quality keyboard, 1280x720 display, 200gig SSD drive, 4gig memory, quad cores, OpenCL, 1000 hour battery life, weight less than 1kg, WiFi and 3G. And will be too expensive - I'd pay only 50.
Translation: What it will miss is mass appeal.
Make mine a slate, please! (Score:2)
Yes, I see all the limitations of a tablet. But as an internet consumption device, it is an ideal form factor. And at $100, I can replace it every 6 months.
Finally, something I want to buy.
Laptop vs Cellphone Costs (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Very good question there. $100 seems almost too cheap, though I agree with other people's comments that this price point is a game change
Re: (Score:2)
Cell phones are actually quite hard to integrate. Batteries are smaller so you have to suspend a lot. You have to come out of suspend fast and not muck up the phone module as you do it. You have to wake up on an incoming call and start ringtones, etc. Openmoko distros frequently break on simple upgrades in weird ways, I tend to upgrade infrequently for that reason.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Licensing for 3G and 2G and other cell phone chip hardware is expensive.
Also, you have to add additional interfaces (SIM card interface, internal antenna, etc) that increase the cost of delivery and design.
Re: (Score:2)
> Licensing for 3G and 2G and other cell phone chip hardware is expensive.
Phone chip hardware is expensive, full stop. Microwave rf is not bit-banging. It involves hairy analog circuitry using uncooperative exotic semiconductors.
Re: (Score:2)
Given two devices that do the same thing:
1) The bigger one will cost more
2) The one with less battery life will cost more
3) The effects of #1 and #2 compound dramatically.
As in, small batteries holding lots of charge are expensive. Working well on less charge is expensive. Smaller components are generally more expensive.
Oh, and custom processors are more expensive than off-the-shelf ones.
Re: (Score:2)
> 1) The bigger one will cost more
> 2) The one with less battery life will cost more
Those should both have said "less" of course....
Re: (Score:2)
It's harder to make things smaller, in general.
Re: (Score:2)
How do you know those cellphones "cost" 300 bucks? Because your cellphone provider tells you that when selling you a "discounted" cellphone?
Re: (Score:2)
The same reason you're going to be able to buy an iPad for 30% less than an iPhone costs, and you can buy an iPod Touch for less than half the price.
As soon as you involve a telecom company things suddenly get really expensive.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
$179?
Much of that R&D, I bet?
A comment (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's running Android, not windows, so it's got plenty of memory.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes its cheap. No it doesn't do anything much useful.
At best its a thin client for Google's online software. Its not a supercomputer because it doesn't do anything that a supercomputer would do.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think Windows Vista/7 has really warped peoples notion of useful memory size. There are many uses for a device like this that don't require gigabytes of RAM. The applications that run on a Nokia N800/N810 with 128Mb of RAM are a testament to that. I would certainly have a use for a sub-notebook sized device with the power and power consumption of my N800.
Will it bring another wave of newbies? (Score:3, Insightful)
My prediction: when the $100 barrier is broken and laptops are in the supermarkets, the impact of this on the internet will be comparable to that of AOL.
Re: (Score:2)
[sarcasm]
You mean we'll use them for coasters like we did with AOL's disks and CDs?
Or do you mean it will bankrupt the company which produces them into oblivion after the bubble bursts?
[/sarcasm]
Not a $100 laptop (Score:5, Insightful)
TFA uses a simplistic economic fallacy to argue that the price will be around $100:
The price has not yet been announced officially... But you can understand that if Hivision was able to sell those types of laptops for $98 to distributors more than a year ago (when I filmed my popular video from IFA 2008), then surely the mass manufacturing price has not gone up since then. My expectation is that if a giant consumer electronics reseller such as Walmart or Best Buy approaches Hivision today to order huge quantities of this laptop, it could be sold below $100 to end users.
He's assuming that any given tech drops in price by a huge percentage every year. If that were true, IBM would still be making 8088-based PCs and selling them for a few bucks. (Take the $2K 1981 price and divide by 2 about 15 times.) Instead, you can't buy a new 8088-based system for any price — it's not worth Intel's while to even manufacture the chip, never mind somebody else to build a system around it.
There's always a certain minimum cost to any manufacturing process. Scaling up reduces costs, and so does Moore's law, but only to a point. You'll always have to pay for materials, factory space, workers, shipping, marketing, etc. Some of these things are cheaper outside the U.S., but again, only to a point.
I'm not sure what the minimum cost for manufacturing a computer is, but I very much doubt that it's much below $100. When manufacturers reach that minimum, they can't keep cutting prices, no matter how much the electronics improve, bang-for-buck-wise. So instead, they find a good price point, and provide the best product they know how to for that price. The result: low end products don't get cheaper, they get better.
I couldn't begin to guess how much these new ARM laptops will sell for. It will have to be a lot less than the competing Atom-based systems, or else no one will buy them. But I doubt if the retail price will ever go below $200, not if they're sold by anybody who's in it for the money.
Of course, even a $200 laptop would be damned popular. And a couple years after they come out, you'll be able to buy used ones on eBay for a pittance.
Re:Not a $100 laptop (Score:4, Interesting)
where can i buy it? (Score:3, Informative)
TFA is only speculating at the price. really, let's see this article when there's a link where this device can be purchased.
Re:Obligatory (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They are great on public transport where space is limited. I can carry my eeepc to places where my wife would want to know why I am taking a full sized laptop.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well if you want a keyboard, good luck typing on this device. If you look at the picture in the article, compare the man's hand span to the size of the keyboard. My personal preference is that anything smaller than 11" is too small for real typing (and yes I have battled with 10.4 inch screens at work). Unless you have very deep pockets, you still need a satchel or backpack to carry these things in be they 7 inches or 11.
A keyboard-less iPad would suffice but my preference for external output is that one ca