S3 Graphics Responds About Linux Support 114
V!NCENT writes "Phoronix has an update on S3's Linux driver state: 'We are doing an internal build of the Chrome 500 Linux driver to incorporate some of the additional hardware features and upgrades (over the Chrome 400 Series GPUs). If you want to test the Linux now, the Chrome 400 Series drivers also support the Chrome 500 Series since it is a unified driver architecture.'" (This after the beef that Phoronix raised about S3's failure to deliver on promises of better Linux support for the 500 series.)
I bet (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I bet (Score:5, Informative)
They always get top of the line drivers delivered promptly...
What version of Windows have you been using? Most Windows drivers are horrible! They require third-party apps to be run in order to use the hardware, frequently install "quick start" or other memory hog applications to be run always in the background, usually break when going from different Windows versions (and sometimes service packs), have little to no maintenance, are a pain to install, impossible to find without the CD or going to a site that seems suspicious, and more often than not are the cause of all Windows crashes.
Sure, Windows has more third-party drivers than Linux, but Windows drivers are not quality, not at all.
Re:I bet (Score:5, Informative)
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Any of the Rage cards. Rage 128/128 Pro, Rage Pro, Rage XL, so I guess we are talking about cards introduced 10 years ago.
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I beg to differ. I put a Rage 128 Pro (with capture) in my shuttle/athlon box, because the on-board S3 save sucked ass and used shared memory. XP SP3 recognized it without a hitch, and I just had to install ATI's older catalyst software to use the capture and enable the advanced video control panel tabs.
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Yes, SP3 installs MS's slow driver. As to ATI's driver -- I can't find a way to get it installed. All that is on AMD's site is the driver/software bundle, which refuses to install on my system because it
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They require third-party apps to be run in order to use the hardware, frequently install "quick start" or other memory hog applications to be run always in the background
Frequent for Printers and Webcams perhaps, but even so, not always required.
Take my Logitech Webcam (Communicate STX) for example. Yes, it installs a tray utility and a Windows Service, both of which can be disabled and the camera functions perfectly. In Linux? Dead as a doornail.
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The Communicate STX works perfectly in Linux. That's the reason I bought the cam in the first place.
Re:I bet (Score:5, Insightful)
God I get really angry sometimes at comments like this. People assume that their own experiences are all that counts.
My experiences:
* My Intel X3100 (965GM) graphics chipset runs faster and supports OpenGL 2 in Windows instead of running far slower and only OpenGL 1.4 in Linux. So, it's faster and more capable. I can even do things like force aspect ration when running at a lower resolution, something I can't do with these drivers in Linux.
* My old Canon inkjet printer provides more information in Windows. I can bring up a window showing the ink levels so I can have a rough estimate as to when I should go out to get more cartridges. I can also force a manual clean of the heads if necessary, something I cannot do with the generic drivers in Linux.
* My Realtek HD audio audio chipset has a really dodgy volume ramp-up in Linux. From about 0% to 50% it is fairly steady, but quiet. From 50% onwards it seems to change the amount of volume that is increased per each percentage tick. It's not linear. Very annoying since I end up lacking the fine-grained volume control that I can get with the drivers in Windows. A change in a volume tick in Windows at the higher levels is subtle, but in Linux it's much more noticeable. Might not sound like a big issue but it is when the volume doesn't work like your brain thinks it should!
* My webcam in Windows has additional controls such as horizontal mirroring of the image, automatic gain control, etc. I am not presented with such functions in Linux due to the primitive development of webcam drivers.
So in short - if you ignore what DOESN'T work very well in Linux, well then no wonder a lot of people try it, find it lacking and go back to Windows. Things will never improve in ignorance.
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[Windows] 64-bit driver support is definitely subpar compared to Linux. Hell, the whole 64-bit environment is subpar on Windows compared to Linux.
Ah fuck it. The whole environment is subpar on Windows compared to Linux!
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Which version of 64-bit Windows though, XP or Vista?
Windows XP 64-bit is considered to be pretty crap, but Vista 64-bit is quite nice. For the record, every device on my laptop has a 64-bit driver providing exactly the same features and capabilities as the 32-bit ones, which was nice when I made the jump to 64-bit.
But what do I know, apart from how to use computers. Heh.
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God I get really angry sometimes at comments like this. People assume that their own experiences are all that counts.
My experiences, on the other hand, should be taken into consideration as something that counts.
Wait, what?
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yeah!
I wish I had more experience like the unrealistically linux optimistic guy than the pro-windows troll.
Unfortunately most hardware drivers I have encountered are less capable or user friendly in linux.
However, linux makes up for it by being so much more sane, something that makes sense and I can fix if broken, something with the most awesome free tools and most of the advice about it is useful vs. for windoze the advice is to either reboot or buy something I don't need. Also the hardware interaction isn
Re:I bet (Score:4, Informative)
It varies. Lets leave it at that.
The HP Printer drivers for Linux are *far* superior to the Windows ones in every way.
Not only are they on SourceForge (but made by HP themselves), but they support every feature you can name. Network printing, fax, scanner, card reader and so on.
Checking the ink levels is more precise than on Windows.
They all tie in properly with the appropriate Linux subsystems. CUPS, Sane, etc...
FYI I'm using one of their networked multifunction centers.
Network autodetection on Linux is quick and painless and using it over the network doesnt add/remove any features compared to USB.
Not to mention that the Windows drivers are 250mb to download, and the Linux ones are 11mb for the same thing.
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Sorry to pick up on only one point, and it doesn't invalidate your argument, but:
I've come across this before, and the chances are that what you're seeing is due to the windows drivers (in this one instance) not making full use of the hardware. Start alsamixer in a terminal, and check that each fader isn't showing more than 0dB gain. If it is, it's almost certainly only really adding distortion, and that's probably what's causing you to feel the volume change so much.
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They require third-party apps to be run in order to use the hardware, frequently install "quick start" or other memory hog applications to be run always in the background....
While often included, I have never known that trash to be strictly necessary to use the hardware. I just use that New Hardware Detected Wizard to select the .inf and .sys files from the CD (and favor .zip over .exe drivers from online).
nVidia is a major thorn in my side over this issue.
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They always get top of the line drivers delivered promptly...
No, but whatever they're getting tends to be better than Linux users of the same hardware is getting. There are quite a few companies out there that seem to live in some kind of Dilbertish "What suckers can we fool into buying our product today?" and screw repurchases. Pretty much all this hardware with crap windows drivers are linux paperweights. Companies with good windows drivers are a mixed bunch when it comes to Linux support, but very few and far between are any examples I can think of where the Linux drivers are better. End result is that there's a smaller selection of Linux friendly quality hardware than quality hardware in general, and if you buy crap then really no OS will help you. No real surprise there.
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Nearly no Windows driver supports monitor or injection. ;)
who are these people? (Score:3, Interesting)
Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays? Why aren't they buying low-end (sub-$80) nvidia or ATI cards?
You get practically the same performance (although 3D performance is far and away better on comparable nVidia/ATI cards) for the same price, the same small heatsink/fan, and better driver support.
Is there a populous of severely brain damaged geeks out there that I don't know about? If so, are any of you female, because I've been feeling lonely lately.
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No, there is a population of PC buyers where 80$ is important and that aren't geeks.
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Is that not the same price that an "S3" card commands?
I had infered that from the GP post but perhaps I Just assumed so incorrectly?
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most low-end motherboards with via chipsets come with s3 graphics onboard.
Re:who are these people? (Score:4, Informative)
Really? The vast majority of built-in video cards that I've seen come from Intel.
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ah, you must not buy many AMD or VIA motherboards.
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Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays?
Tough question... the last S3 card I've seen was a 2Mb Trio.
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Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays?
Tough question... the last S3 card I've seen was a 2Mb Trio.
Truth that. An old ATi or Nvidea card is a better buy and is more available as well. The only market I can see for them is OEM integrated and brick and mortar sales and I haven't seen an S3 card for sale in a local store since the 90's.
Re:who are these people? (Score:5, Informative)
As an AC previously stated, motherboards with VIA's integrated video use the Chrome drivers.
I bought an Everex laptop that uses Chrome9 drivers, and it doesn't do bad for what it is ($300 laptop running Ubuntu).
My wife's PC is also an Everex system with a VIA integrated video using Chrome drivers. It's the $200 system Wal-Mart was selling a while ago.
Why pay for a video card that costs half as much, or more, than the entire system? Video performance is acceptable for day-to-day use, even playing YouTube videos.
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Sorry, but I can put an older PCI video card from nVidia or ATI in the same system that currently uses the onboard VIA video chipset, and get much worse performance (obviously, using the same VIA C7 1.5Ghz processor) playing the same YouTube videos.
I did try it, to see if the onboard video was better than what I had lying around in the parts bin.
Re:who are these people? (Score:5, Interesting)
There's the evangelism perspective.
Look, if you're like me, and been primarily Linux-using since the a.out days (see Slashdot ID), you'll check every component and buy based on "what works great with Linux", and even "who's directly advancing open-source software, not being buttheads".
Problem is, I, and much of the Linux community, want to be able to give an Ubuntu LiveCD to my friend Joe who just recently heard about this 'Linux thing". And have it work.
I don't want to say "so, what kind of video chipset did eMachines put in your Walmart box", "what network", "what sound".
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I have a better idea. Let's destroy Lexmark so no one has to deal with their crappy printers anymore! ;)
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Well, to each his own, it's your store... but at our surplus we sell 100% Ubuntu systems. I get FAR fewer returns than with when I used to sell (some) Windows systems.. they'd buy one, get viruses and crap IMMEDIATELY, and then want to bring it back or have someone "fix it" for them. (Which would be a great source of additional income, but we are not an actual store, we are a surplus disposal store so we are not to provide support except for hardware faults, and don't have the staff to do it either.)
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All the free printers I have seem to be Canon, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. There are two of those in the garage and the printer I have wired up is Canon as well.
If somebody said "Luser get another printer" it is unlikely they would say "LOL winblowz", they would instead say "lexmark blows". You seem so proud of how condescending you can be that you cannot even get it right. And your childish attitude does not help get your point across you know. If you can document people acting that way, th
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Who the heck are these people using S3 cards nowadays? Why aren't they buying low-end (sub-$80) nvidia or ATI cards?
Who are these people buying graphics cards now? More than 50% of all sales of new computers have been laptops for a while, and they tend not to have their graphics chip on a removable board. Even desktops are more likely to use on-board video than anything else. And a lot of cheap machines in both segments come with onboard S3 graphics. Sure, they only have 1% of the total market share (Q4 2008 figures), but that still translates to a huge number of units.
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Laptops users, one of the best laptops i've laid hands on the Thinkpad T22 had an S3 graphics card in it. (it could have been even better if they had chosen a s decent gfx card).
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When S3 has an open source driver and decent performance, I will buy it over a comparable nvidia card + proprietary driver any day.
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Standard Operating Procedure (Score:3, Insightful)
It is common for companies to issue 'forward looking' statements and clueless positive outlook synergestic lies. Usually by marketing, sales and PR, they totally ignore the engineers, developers or any other employee that may actually know what the fuck they are talking about, and quite often sneer at them for 'not getting it'.
It is a syndrome that is quite common - a scientist says something like 'global warming is a problem'. Put a guy in a suit, call him a CEO or a politician, and his 'I'm confident . . .' bullshit will win almost every time.
So I simply refuse to believe ANY STATEMENT by these guys - they have ZERO credibility left.
The really sad part about it... (Score:1)
... is that not only are you completely right, you're also one of the few (perhaps 2% at most) of the entire consumer base (which of course includes law makers) that even would notice such a trend in PR practices in general. The bulk of the rest of the population either doesn't care enough to pay attention or isn't smart enough to.
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Sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sad (Score:4, Funny)
Clearly, as S3 slipped behind the competition in video card performance, they also let the clue train get away.
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S3 is obviously worried about their advanced technology being stolen by nVidia and AMD if they publish an open-source driver or the specs required to write such a driver.
They're probably more worried that they're violating some patent that they don't even know about, and hence don't want to give Nvidia or ATI any ammunition to beat them with.
This is one of the reasons why the hardware company I used to work for was reluctant to give away programming information to open source developers.
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Also why AMD took so long fulfilling it's promise on R600/700 3d Docs: They had the WHOLE reference run over by lawyers to make sure what got out wouldn't be something that 'came back' as it were :D
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Begging? I doubt it. I bet no one has even bothered to phone up the head office and contact someone, and no, email doesn't count.
If someone bothered to officially contact the company I bet they'd get specs right away. Problem is computer hackers don't think like that, they send an email which reaches the lowest area of support staff, it gets deleted and they give up then bitch on slashdot.
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And how would you contact a company except by sending them email? If I want to contact a company I'll find their web site, find a contact link and send an email. I cannot imagine what else you might do. Same procedure except finding and calling a phone number might be an option, but it is even less likely you'd get an intelligent result.
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If you are going to make low-end hardware as S3 does, you better make sure that Linux compatibility is one of the first things on you list.
Why?
Not trying to troll, but I'm looking for an actual reason here.
Re:Sad (Score:4, Interesting)
A company like S3 is insane for prioritizing its development time to a platform with 85% of the desktop market!
But when you make low end products, it is best to develop for the low end market. These days, the low end market is dominated by Linux and XP. With XP having about 75% and Linux about 25%. Now, if it was so difficult for them to write a proper Linux driver, it might make sense, but if they give specs to a kernel developer (even under an NDA so long as the resulting driver was GPL'd) they wouldn't have to do a thing and they would have a high-quality driver for Linux.
Would a business risk ~25% of its customers by not doing something that costs the company $0 along with improving its PR? I don't think most businesses would, and thats why its so sad.
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Um, did you pull those numbers out of your butt?
This [wikipedia.org] data would like to argue with you.
0.83% is quite a bit different than 25%.
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Download (Score:2, Informative)
Chrome 400 Series: Linux Display Driver - x86
File Name
S3G-Linux-x86-Chrome4x.14.02.01.tar.bz2 (11,334KB)
Version Version: 14.02.01
Date: 11/19/2008
Description Release Type: Beta
- Initial release
GPU IDs: 9043, 9045
VIA's Linux Portal site (Score:3, Informative)
http://linux.via.com.tw/ [via.com.tw]
Get your latest Linux drivers there. I went there to get better drivers for the two VIA systems I own that rely on Chrome drivers, and the newer drivers worked great.
S3's product site is here: http://www.s3graphics.com/en/products/ [s3graphics.com]
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VIA's drivers ARE a work in progress. At least they offer SOMETHING to the Linux world, though.
I do know my way around xorg conf files, and have no qualms compiling bits and pieces from third parties to tack onto my Linux based OS (I've never had problems with ATI cards under Linux either). That being said, when I did have troubles with the newer drivers from VIA, they were quick to respond to my emails, and they were helpful.
VIA fell out of favor with me back when AMD relied on them for the bulk of their
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Retards (Score:1)
Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (Score:5, Insightful)
as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value
Three years is a long time in computing years. Too bad you're missing out on everything linux has to offer nowadays. Enjoy your vendor lock-in, and don't forget, Microsoft wants you to pay the tax again in a year or so.
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as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value
Three years is a long time in computing years. Too bad you're missing out on everything linux has to offer nowadays. Enjoy your vendor lock-in, and don't forget, Microsoft wants you to pay the tax again in a year or so.
So how much more time do you pay with Windows in time? it takes a frikking full day to update XP when you get up to date versions of Linux pretty easily...
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Password:
server@> sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade
$>
I don't even have to go to the server to upgrade, no touch of cd's, nothing. And if you do it once a week it'll take less than a minute. Beat that :-)
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damn code block, somehow I managed to screw up the ssh 192.168.1.100 at the top ....
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Err simply burn the deb/rpm/tarballs to a disc? ....duh
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Last time I checked with Ubuntu, it had a pretty GUI with the option to use a cd as a source.
It also came with all the 'extras' which you mention, out of the box, so burning them isnt required.
And this is the problem with people like you.
You look at Linux 10 years ago and assume it hasnt changed since then.
Linux advances at a far greater rate than Windows.
There are dicks on both sides. Dont become one yourself.
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Oh look you became a Windows dick.
Hardware support on Linux is quite nearly flawless and often better than Windows.
Your comment on Lexmark printers is the only case I've seen where a product group consistently doesnt have support.
I can take any brand name laptop today, put Linux on it and everything will work.
Typed on a new Inspiron 1525. with fully working multimedia keys, wifi, bluetooth, cpu frequency setting, acpi functions and graphics.
Hell even Fn + Up/Down changes the screen brightness as can KDE 4's
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Your saying that Lexmark has 95% of the printer market?
Your delusional. I dont know what else to say.
Just for arguments sake I just checked my local computer store (in Australia).
They have 6 Canons, 5 Epson, 9 HP and 3 Lexmark inkjet printers.
In multifunction devices there are 5 Brothers, 14 Canons, 4 Epson, 11 HP, 7 Samsung and a whopping 2 Lexmark.
Over here at least, Lexmark is quite small.
Also notice that all the other brands have Linux support? I know the Canons do, HP has brilliant drivers, and I just
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This is the current breakdown on Newegg.
Hewlett-Packard (80)
Canon USA, Inc. (54)
Lexmark (35)
Brother (21)
Epson America (20)
Ricoh (6)
G7 Productivity Systems(2)
Kodak(1)
Panasonic(1)
PENTAX(3)
Planon(2)
And thats just home inkjets.
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Until Linux can be used without EVER needing ANY CLI interaction by the user, and that includes fixes to common problems, than I am sorry but Linux simply isn't ready for the desktops of the majority of PC users.
Have secretaries become dumber in the past 20 years? DOS was entirely command-line based, and "everyone" used WordPerfect and Lotus.
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You have no idea how many people - on both sides of the Linux/MS divide - simply never stop to think to themselves "Hang on a minute, this is a boring repetitive task which takes a long time - exactly the kind of thing computers excel at - and I'm not making the computer do it?!"
Re:AC Responds About Linux Support (Score:4, Insightful)
as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value
Three years is a long time in computing years. Too bad you're missing out on everything linux has to offer nowadays.
Yes, I know he's trolling but you're not really countering his point. In the context that Bruce Perens used it, Linux isn't free nor will it ever be. Neither is paying for Windows. Neither is pirating Windows. Every hour spent on maintaining or fixing your machine, or any time wasted because you're less efficient in one OS than in another OS, or every time you must use an inferior application to one you could have been using you're losing value. It's fundamental opprtunity cost even if I'm not paid for that hour, where I could say work an hour less and still have the same net amount of personal time left. It's not just the question "Does Linux do everything I want?" but also "Is Linux more efficient at doing what I want?" or at least not worse than the price of Windows + apps. I'm using the desktop now and while I can say that it works out quite well, I'm not sure I can say it's a big win on TCO.
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Every hour spent on maintaining or fixing your machine, or any time wasted because you're less efficient in one OS than in another OS
So, what you're saying is that Linux PAYS me to use it, since I'm far more efficient with it than with another OS.
Linux isn't free, it's BETTER than free!
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You could argue that the time freed by completing the tasks you desire more efficiently in Linux allows you to perform more paid work, but claiming that therefore means Linux is paying you to use it is entirely deceptive and doesn't really advance the argument for Linux further as much as it causes people to gawk at the perceived intelligence of its vocal users. I'm quite sure anyone running around saying Windows pays them to use it because Photoshop is more efficient for them to use than Gimp would be sma
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Eh, I support both Windows and linux boxes at work. Far more time is spent maintaining/fixing Windows. It's not even remotely close. So that begs the question... why pay extra for something that costs a lot to maintain anyway? Training users only goes so far.
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Nothing is free.
Over my lifetime I have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on computers - not counting my time. I'm not sure if it makes up for my "increased productivity". But I certainly had fun doing it, and am somewhat of a computer "expert" thanks to my almost 30 years of experience from playing around with hardware and knowing which part of which chip does what, to programming software in anything from assembler to perl.
However (apart from the odd Ubuntu updates which tend to break things like sou
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Because no-one ever had to re-install Windows.
My time isn't free, people *pay* me quite a lot of money to maintain their Linux systems.
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I work in IT (the dreaded Helpdesk job) and I have made a lot of money supporting Windows systems since Windows 95.
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Although there still is only one that has an up-front money cost.
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True enough, it has got much better since that quote in 2006, which is a hangover from earlier times.
It's really a quote that should go away. All of my systems that were set up for a purpose are install and forget. My oldest is OpenBSD 3.8 from 2005 happily serving web pages and imap. It would have over 400 days uptime by now if I hadn't accidentally yanked the power cord.
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as Bruce Perens famously said at Linux SF Con 2006, Linux is only free if your time has no value
Huh, I think that is a quote by JWZ [jwz.org], from 1998.
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Jamie Zawinski [jwz.org] (the DNA Lounge [dnalounge.com]/Unix Mozilla 1.1 [jwz.org] guy) said it in 1998 [jwz.org].
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IIRC jwz has migrated to OS X.
At the very least, all the xscreensaver hacks have been ported to OS X's native screensaver.
I would bet a pint of massively dry-hopped microbrew that OS X is basically what he wanted from IRIX, without so much of the overpriced fail.
(and if you think Apple hardware is overpriced, just check the proprietary SGI RAM from that era...)