OpenSUSE 11.0 Released

Nate D writes "It's here: a new major release of Novell's community-supported distro is now available, and can be downloaded from the mirrors. Linux Format has a hands-on look at the new installer, SLAB menu and Compiz Fusion, and weighs up whether the distro can fight competition from Ubuntu and Fedora. Is this the start of a new era for SUSE?"

I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

I will not use it on my box. I will not use it with a fox.

Re:I will not

[russlar]

I will not use it on my box.

I don't want to know what you are or are not doing with your box.

Re:

[gardyloo]

This is slashdot. Take the education where you can get it!

Re:I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell of an argument isn't it?

"No one ever got fired for buying microsoft."

No one has ever been fired for drinking a glass of warm urine in the privacy of their own home. Doesn't make it the right decision or a pleasant experience.

Well, at least I don't think anyone's been fired for that...

Re:I will not

[larry bagina]

plenty of people have been modded down over a nice glass of fristy piss, though. On any given day, there's probably half a dozen people bragging their frosty piss on slashdot.

Re:

[mgblst]

Yeah, all fine. I have been doing it for years. But then post a couple of innocent pictures on facebook, and the shit hits the fan. People are strange.

Re:

[moronikos]

Budweiser is close enough.

Re:

[Ilgaz]

While you joke, I checked the Novell CTO's blog about what he would say about new SUSE.

"Hanging out at Microsoft
I will be at Microsoft on Thursday and Friday, and only have meetings on Thursday afternoon.

I would love to meet other hackers. If you want to meet, discuss, talk, drop me an email:

Posted by Miguel de Icaza on 18 Jun 2008"

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Jun-18.html [tirania.org]

What is it called if something is so sad that you can't even risk joking about it?

Re:I will not

[Fast Thick Pants]

What is it called if something is so sad that you can't even risk joking about it?

Transportation Security Administration?

Re:

[Anarke_Incarnate]

It is not Microsoft anything, anymore than Dell, HP and Acer are MICROSOFT companies. Novell signed a much maligned agreement for patent protection and inter-operation. You are showing your ignorance.

Probably not

[morgan_greywolf]

Is this the start of a new era for SUSE?"

Probably not. Competition between major distros doesn't really exist, because all features are available for all distros. Neither Ubuntu, nor Fedora nor SuSE specialize in anything in particular, so in the end, there's not much difference between them aside from package management and menu layout.

Re:Probably not

[allcar]

Don't underestimate package management - it is critical. It is the main differentiator between distros and it is the key to Ubuntu's current success. It's also one of the main reasons that Linux is so much more stable than Windows.

Re:Probably not

[caluml]

Don't underestimate package management - it is critical. It is the main differentiator between distros and it is the key to Ubuntu's current success.

That's not what I'd have said, as it's the same as Debian. I'd have said Ubuntu's success was due to having little things pop up and ask you if you want to install mp3 codecs when the user tries to play an mp3, or Flash installer helpers, etc.

Re:

[lazy_playboy]

[ubuntu's package management] ... as it's the same as Debian.

Well, it uses the same system but I don't entirely agree with you in essence. Ubuntu offers modern packages in a stable format, which is far more labour intensive than Debian's 'old but stable' philosophy.

I'm not dissing Debian for their approach, but it is quite different to Ubuntu's even though they use the same package management.

Re:Probably not

[drinkypoo]

The whole fucking world has been saying it wanted Debian with updated repositories and cutting-edge software (but that has actually been tested by a human at leastonce.) Ubuntu comes along and gives it to us and people are confused about why it is successful? It's because they give us what we ask for!

Re:

[Max Littlemore]

I'd have said Ubuntu's success was due to having little things pop up and ask you if you want to install mp3 codecs when the user tries to play an mp3, or Flash installer helpers, etc.

No. That stuff is pretty recent.

I seem to remember the existence of scripts like EasyUbuntu and the like a while back to get that stuff running, although they were a bit dodgy so the command line was preferred in my case. I think that was for the last LTS release.

I also seem to remember that Ubuntu was already gaining a lar

Re:

[bcrowell]

Don't underestimate package management - it is critical. It is the main differentiator between distros and it is the key to Ubuntu's current success. It's also one of the main reasons that Linux is so much more stable than Windows.

To amplify a little on what you said, what matters for desktop use is:

1. how well the packaging system works (taking care of dependencies automatically, etc.)
2. the quality of the packages (e.g., making sure you don't get a situation where application A needs version 3.4 of a ce

Re:

[G Money]

FWIW, there is a nice search tool for finding packages for OpenSUSE at Webpin [opensuse-community.org]. They've made adding repositories much easier and faster now in 11 as well (zypper is light speed ahead of the old package management tools in OpenSUSE).

Re:

[CastrTroy]

In my experience, Mandriva all does all 5 of those quite well.

Re:Probably not

[mikesd81]

Open suse has it's own repository, as well as the packman community and these [benkevan.com]. And you can even simply do yast --install and it'll go get it, or if you have a package you can do a local install and it will resolve the dependencies.

Re:Probably not

[Anarke_Incarnate]

Not to mention, with the 1 Click Install feature, you can also set up the repository for the application you found online very easily. If you install the 3 most popular repos you have nothing to search for that you cannot find right from YaST(within reason).

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you have not installed a recent linux distribution. I dont know what live CD you downloaded , but for obvious reasons it wasnt the right one.

recently I have moved to all Sata Devices DVD, burner , and HDD's all of them installed flawlessly on opensuse 10.3 . Not to mention 11 Alpha and RC .
I am more than positive this would also work with fedora , ubuntu etc. And Im not talking about hooking them up on that cheap a$$ Jmicron crap either. They run with ICH(X) chips or nforce fine.

The funny thing is

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

In a lot of opinions, it is.

When I changed over (full time) from XP to openSUSE 10.2 I could happily leave my PC on for days, use suspend (RAM and disk) many more times than under XP without a reboot to "freshen up" and I haven't yet seen a SEGFAULT that couldn't be fixed with a rc<service> restart.

In short, my experience is not the same as yours. Have you got odd hardware or an overclocked system?
Full speed BIOS settings, AMD/VIA, ATI GFX (8xAGP, 256M), ATA133 (x6) and everything runs peachy. Under XP having the AMD/VIA combo would cause the OS to crap itself regularly no matter which drivers I used, and I have tried a lot of them.

Now I have a copy of Win2K in VirtualBox running seamless mode for when I need Photoshop. With the recent v1.0 release of WINE I may even lose that ...

And to top it all, Linux has the free edition of NX [nomachine.com] that is far quicker and immeasurably more secure than VNC.

Re:

[PReDiToR]

A lot of the time you can hit "CTRL-ALT-backspace" to restart your GUI.

If you take a look in /etc/init.d you will find a list of services. Google them (or read the documen ... wait, this is Slashdot <grin>) and not only will you gain confidence, but you can maximise your uptime to show off with.

Re:

[snoyberg]

Precisely one of the reasons that Linux is more stable than Windows...

Re:Probably not

[catscan2000]

SuSE does offer YaST, which is a very easy-to-use system configuration tool. I need to learn more about Ubuntu, but as far as I know, YaST integrates system configuration bits in a more coherent and consistent manner than other distributions do. YaST was open-sourced at some point in the recent past, so other distros might possibly use it now or eventually, too.

For me, the only downside to SuSE is its slow and memory-inefficient package management system. It gets substantially better with each release, so it might be approaching the speed of apt-get on Ubuntu, but in 10.4, it wasn't quite there yet in performance. In features, however, it's definitely there :-).

Re:

[AvitarX]

When I first used Linux it was redhat, and when I wanted to reconfigure the sound I had to re-install it (I guess knowing sndconf was the command would have helped, but I didn't).

Then SUSE came with the YaST, and I could "re-install" without actually reinstalling, and much time was saved.

Of course now all that stuff is real obvious anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Re:

[norminator]

I don't think the default graphical package management tool is anywhere near as easy to use or as convenient as Synaptic. Every time I wanted to install a new package, it seemed to insist on updating the repo information (well, maybe only once a day, not necessarily every time), whether I wanted to or not... so I'd have to wait for quite a while before I could actually look through the packages. Then I didn't see a way to queue up a number of packages to install all at once. It seemed to want to install

Re:

[PReDiToR]

I personally find YaST package management easier to use than Synaptic.

Other than that, as has been said, all features are available on all distros, so it is just down to personal choice, and what you are used to working with. RPMs and DEBs are very similar once you get them on your machine, you can even use alien to install them.

Been with (open)SuSE since v8.0 so I know my way around this particular distro better than the *buntu boxen that I admin.

SuSE's firewall is best

[Anonymous Coward]

I've used all three (U, F, & S) and keep going back to SuSE because of the SuSEfirewall2 configuration feature. It gives you one straightforward (fairly) easy to understand text config file that governs how the iptables rules get set up.

The Yast system manager is pretty good too, especially the software management section, but then again Ubuntu's Synaptic and apt-get from Debian totally rocks too! I'd love to have OpenSuSE with both Yast and Synaptic together, but I'm too lazy to try to install the Deb

why do you need a firewall

[RiotingPacifist]

I thought, unless your doing something stupid on a desktop or running a server chances are a linux box doesnt need a firewall (all your software is from a trusted source thats pointing out, and theres very little pointing outwards anyway)?

Re:

[Vectronic]

"I thought, ... chances are a linux box doesnt need a firewall"

Firewalls arent always used just for inbound attacks, what about using it as an adblocker, or maybe you only want certain computers in a network to communicate, or maybe you are just a little overly paranoid...

Besides, as Linux popularity grows, it will necessitate the need for more firewalls/security, especially with recent blunders with Flash, et al, there will be more of those aswell...

Re:

[setagllib]

Firewalls are 100% useless against Flash, which loads via outbound HTTP just like the rest of your web content. I recommend disabling Flash entirely or using an open source implementation like swfdec (which is only slightly more functional than just disabling Flash :P)

Re:

[Vectronic]

Yes, but say perhaps some malicious attacker used a vulnerability in something to enable something else, even if they still used typical FTP/HTTP ports you'd (should) notice if there is a bunch of traffic and all you are using is Pidgin or something.

Re:

[Vectronic]

Oh, and as for blocking flash... you can easily use your Firewall to block a certain IP/DNS that distributes Flash based Ads on a specific (black list) basis, there are a lot of things you may need/want to have Flash enabled for...

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[morgan_greywolf]

I've used all three (U, F, & S) and keep going back to SuSE because of the SuSEfirewall2 configuration feature. It gives you one straightforward (fairly) easy to understand text config file that governs how the iptables rules get set up.

Bah. Back when I started building Linux firewalls, we didn't have fancy firewall building scripts or GUIs. We had to know what we were doing with iptables and grok the difference between say, REJECTing a packet and DROPing a packet.

So iptables is iptables is iptables to me.

You kids and your fancy configurators.

Now get off of my lawn!

Re:

[setagllib]

I only started Linux around 2.4.16 or so, and I learned iptables properly. It's not even hard if you understand networking itself. Now I just have a few general scripts I deploy when I want, including a very simple one just for client deployments to only allow SSH as incoming.

Re:

[clampolo]

I've used all three (U, F, & S) and keep going back to SuSE because of the SuSEfirewall2 configuration feature. It gives you one straightforward (fairly) easy to understand text config file that governs how the iptables rules get set up.

Not sure if it is what you are looking for, but FireStarter is a pretty easy way to configure you iptables.

Re:Probably not

[chill]

SuSE is a proponent of AppArmor, whereas Red Hat is big into SELinux. If you're big into security, this is a major difference.

http://www.novell.com/linux/security/apparmor/selinux_comparison.html [novell.com]
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SELinux [fedoraproject.org]

Re:

[morgan_greywolf]

Any reason you can't install AppArmor into Red Hat and SELinux into SuSE?

No, didn't think so.

Re:

[chill]

Red Hat's support for SELinux is superior to SuSE's. They are much more active in the development of SELinux than AppArmor. The opposite is true regarding AppArmor. SuSE is much more active in the development and support than Red Hat.

Yes, you can add either to the other. But there is far more expertise for AppArmor at SuSE considering they acquired it when they bought Immunix. And there is far more expertise for SELinux at Red Hat, considering how deeply they are involved with it.

And then there is this

Re:

[PReDiToR]

Absolutely right.

There is an argument to be made for the way most of the people on the dev team use the software though. Integration is sometimes easier when the functionality has been designed into the distro by the people who created it.

When I was a SuSE user they always had KDE as their default desktop, and to shoehorn Gnome in just never felt as smooth as RedHat with default Gnome. This is my own experience, negated now by openSUSE having both options available.

Re:

[hackstraw]

Neither Ubuntu, nor Fedora nor SuSE specialize in anything in particular

They may not specialize, but the liklihood of a 3rd party vendor supporting a particular vendor goes RedHat EL, SuSE, Ubuntu, in that order.

Also, RedHat, my personal least favorite distro, is pretty much the only one I've used for the past 7 years because that is what my employers feel comfy with.

SUSE has more Enterprise-focus

[SplatMan_DK]

Competition between major distros doesn't really exist, because all features are available for all distros.

While some may argue that SUSE is bad as a matter of principle (because of their deal wil Microsoft, which secured them a truckload of cash), it is my experience that SUSE has more focus on Enterprise needs than most other distros.

So yes - perhaps all features are available for all distros. But not all are actually implemented/moved to another distro. Most corporate users like the way YAST (packet manager) is working, and they also enjoy some of the built-in features for central management and integratio

Re:

[drinkypoo]

And given that the package management and menu layout are heavily (for Linux Format) berated in this article, I'd say it's the continuance of the same old era for SuSE...

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Probably not

[HermMunster]

I do fresh installs of Windows XP for customers. Even with a recovery CD one has a huge amount of time to commit to doing one.

For instance, the recovery can take about 45 min to an hour (or more). Then you have to clean all the trial-ware junk off it. Then install programs such as an antivirus, adware-spyware detection and removal tools, a real firewall, probably a replacement for the browser (Mozilla Firefox). Then because the computer can't do much more than browse the web without the trial-ware crap I install open office, google earth, pidgin, and a slew of other open source products. After that I have to spend the next two hours installing updates (install reboot, install, reboot, install, reboot, etc). Then of course you do the stuff that everyone else does--set up mail, copy over backed up data, etc.

With a regular install of XP you can skip the removal of the trial-ware crap but you still have to do all the other stuff mentioned above. And that takes hours.

With Linux it takes about 15 minutes to get the install done (that includes repartitioning the drive to dual boot with Windows, and the installation of those same Open Source programs. Then it takes about another 15-20 minutes to download the updates from on line.

From that you configure things just like you like them. Only with Linux it's more fun and the options are always free. I don't have to worry about paying some company money to add some nifty ability to my desktop. And I don't have to worry about virus protection nor about whether I have good firewall protection. Security is pretty sound unless you go opening up the doors to everyone and the way linux is designed it helps to protect you from yourself.

I say the winner for speed and capabilities goes to Linux, any day!

Torrent link

[Anonymous Coward]

Folks, please download it via BitTorrent:
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.0/iso/torrent/openSUSE-11.0-DVD-i386.torrent [opensuse.org]

I think most of the downloads are being done selfishly via HTTP or FTP, as I've been in the swarm for almost 1h and the speeds are quite low, there are only 60 peers.

Re:

[Vectronic]

Well as of right now (see posting time), it has 2440 Peers, 200 or so of which im connected to, and 150 Seeds, but only 20 connected.
Going at about 180 down, 35 up (limited, cause my upload is only 512kbits)

Grew by about 250 peers, just while typing that...

Re:

[Vectronic]

Bitch at them, depending on if they are watching you are not, and what you normally use BT for, at least in this case you can legitimately bitch because its legal, then call again from your cell, then from a friends place, etc...

And for curiosity sake, which ISP?

Re:

[Ilgaz]

If my ISP prevented me from downloading a GNU ISO, I would use my last 4 remaining hours with them to search for another ISP and change to it rather than hitting a busy FTP server.

Not theoretically speaking, I gave up my Cable ISP when they refused to update my DOCSIS modem firmware. It took 4 hours to order a US Robotics DSL modem and open account on a DSL provider.

Re:

[RiotingPacifist]

your doing it wrong.
*encrypt your conections,
*keep your number of connections limited
*dont upload more than (find the ISPs throttle spot here)kb/s

and you should be fine

screen shots

[linuxbeta]

http://www.thecodingstudio.com/opensource/linux/screenshots/index.php?linux_distribution_sm=openSUSE%2011.0 [thecodingstudio.com]

Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[bestinshow]

Instead of having the typical top and bottom panel arrangement, OpenSUSE sticks with a single panel along the bottom of the screen, combining the application launcher with the taskbar and notification areas.

HURRAH! Finally. I hate that top menu bar in Ubuntu, it looks so amateurish with those Firefox/Mail/Help icons rammed up against each other.

Shame the review didn't use KDE, as that's the good point about SUSE as far as I am concerned.

Re:

[Foofoobar]

You do realize you can install KDE in Ubuntu right? I haven't ever used the Gnome desktop in Ubuntu and have been using Ubuntu for years. Though I do admit I use the Gnome tools... until they crash and die.

Re:

[bestinshow]

The point was that the out of the box configuration is minging and amateurish, even though they've clearly put a lot of work into it overall. SUSE was always a KDE centric distribution, historically, so the review using Gnome was also a bit weird, although good to see that its not a second rate citizen.

I'm starting to think that with Compiz, there shouldn't even need to be menu bars, start buttons, taskbars. Hit the Windows key on the keyboard (yeah, it should be a penguin) and a launcher / taskswitch layer

It may well be a step backward for me

[Stu101]

I downloaded the last beta download (ie not release code) and the experience was quite shocking.

I run 10.3 on my 2GB Thinkpad T60p and its rock solid. Now I tried 11 and it was like going from XP to Vista. Slow as anything and it kept crashing badly, on a machine that is Suse certified.

I may download and try the new version but a work to the wise, make sure your backups are good.

However if you are wanting to have a mess around with Xen, its now built right in, so its not all bad.

From a Noob's point of View

[Corpuscavernosa]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a Linux noob. I've played around with countless distros to find a great solution for my older (1.6GHz, 512M RAM, 40Gig HD) laptop, but I have almost zero command line experience and I wanted something that was easy to configure and just worked. I downloaded the beta version of OpenSUSE 11 and it just straight worked. Autoconfigure was great, wireless was perfect right out of the gate, etc.

For a Linux lover but amateur, I loved it for it's simplicity and ease of installation.

Article gets at least three things wrong

[Whitemice]

1. openSUSE doesn't need a new era, it is doing just fine.

2. The Microsoft pact hasn't alienated any of the community that matters. There are fundamentalists that gripe and whine and spit about every intellectual property issue that they *perceive* reduces openness. And there are people who write code. There isn't much overlap at all between the coder and the fundamentalist - so there whining and spitting should just be takes as the meaningless noise that it is.

3. Yast is *extremely* modular and not in the least bit monolithic - one just has to look at the Yast packages to know that. It even has multiple front-ends. This makes as much charge as the people who accuse Evolution of being monolithic (it a highly modular app that consists mostly of cooperating components). Another Yast plus is that it works and coverts almost all configuration issues right down to certificate management. That makes SuSE / openSUSE the only distro with a comprehensive management tool.

Re:

[trolltalk.com]

Don't drink the Microsoft kool-aid. Novell has continually stated that the deal had nothing to do with patent protection for "Microsoft IP in Linux" - only Microsoft has been pushing that fud. Funny how, if this was such a deal, Microsoft hasn't revealed their supposed IP.

Re:

[Ilgaz]

What does Microsoft do with a Linux distributor at first place? Especially after the stock board of that distributor was filled with Chapter 11 rumours until they ink the deal? Did you see their CTO Blog? Does that guy have any other job than cloning MS trojan technologies to Linuxland? I have even seen they tried to port .NET to Apple iPhone and guy cheering about it. WTF has Apple iPhone have anything to do with Linux, Novell or more importantly, .NET?!

One basic question. Is Mono and Moonlight a selected

Re:

[trolltalk.com]

What does Microsoft do with a Linux distributor at first place?

As I pointed out, Novell is more than a linux distributor.

I *do* believe that Mono and Moonlight, in their current guise, are trojans, and that Miguel de Icaza should be given the boot, asap, but that's another story. Novell has done a lot of the heavy lifting for the community, including the SCO crap. OpenSUSE is a good product; it should be judged on its' merits, and not on any FID from Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is claiming that

Re:

[FishWithAHammer]

I *do* believe that Mono and Moonlight, in their current guise, are trojans

Oh, yeah. Interoperability is just terrible.

The CLR is a better framework than anything else out there, and whining about that because Microsoft came up with it is completely retarded. If Java didn't suck, I'd use that--but it does, and .NET/Mono win big in the "not sucking as much as Java" category.

Knee-jerk fear of Mono being used to enforce patents later is ignorant of the legal system; Microsoft has promised that they will not engage in legal action against those reimplementing the .NET BCL and other .

A crusade against cross-platform initiatives?

[SplatMan_DK]

One basic question. Is Mono and Moonlight a selected by default option or not?

I can't say for SUSE 11, but for 10.x neither Mono or Moonlight was installed by default. They were available through the YAST package manager.

I would use original XP or Vista rather than a thing which is made by their cloning partners. At least they are original.

It is sad that you come to such a conclusion without at least evaluating the technical potential of these projects, and perhaps Novells reasons for engaging in them. It sounds almost like you are on a personal crusade against commercial vendors who are in the cross-platform / portability business.

Novell has made it its core business to connect technologies wh

Re:

[Ilgaz]

I use OS X as my only OS for years and when I read "OpenSUSE released", I immediately think about possible inclusion of Mono and Silverlight clone (whatever they call) in standard installation.

While it could be my evil way of thinking, it is certainly a very serious image problem for SUSE.

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, because by running OSX, you're clearly a saint when it comes to free vs proprietary software.

Re:

[jav1231]

For me its a matter of good and evil. Microsoft is not a good company.

Re:

[jav1231]

Ah but they're not evil!

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple made a big stink about patents a number of years ago wrt spring-loaded folders in the Nautilus file manager.

Apple has also purposely broken the iPod database so that Free Software iPod software broke after the update.

Apple also have a similar deal with Microsoft as Novell has.

I know, I know... "Apple shiny. Me like shiny" makes it all better, right? Whatever.

Re:

[Dog-Cow]

Apple may make a big stink about patents, but they actually point to the patents they hold. MS just handwaves and spreads FUD.

Only an Apple hater would think Apple would purposefully expend developer time just to break an open source project that undoubtedly sold more iPods.

Apple and iTunes

[SEMW]

Only an Apple hater would think Apple would purposefully expend developer time just to break an open source project that undoubtedly sold more iPods.

I'm afraid you're in denial. It is well known that Apple have consistently and deliberately added layers of hashes, obstufication, and DRM to successive versions of the iPod in order to try and stop it being accessed from third party players. For example, to quote from a BBC news story about it [bbc.co.uk]:

There seems to be no reason for this change except to break the functionality of alternative jukebox software. It will not limit copying or restrict attempts to strip digital rights management code from tracks. It will not stop people adding non-DRM files they have downloaded from the internet to their library. All it will do is stop the third party players working and force anyone with an iPod to use iTunes.

Independent enough for you? The BBC are hardly "Apple haters". And crying "Why would they do this if it sells more iPods?" is short-sighted: iPods are a low-margin product; most of the money Apple makes from th

Re:

[RiotingPacifist]

yeah! damm them for producing an opensource product to give users the same functionality as windows users!!!

Re:

[Ilgaz]

Well, functionality?

Lets see... Nokia just shipped "Nokia Maps Downloader" application which is not absolutely photoshop class complex application. It is coded in .NET 3.0 . Where is the Linux version so people having same functionality as Windows will run?

Look to REAL WORLD, not some Mono blogs or Mono clone coders friends applications who are hosted at Novell themselves.

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

If something is coded in a true multiplatform framework, it ships on _every_ platform that Framework supports. Mono gang is just being abused by Microsoft to claim their junk is multiplatform.

Want to see a multi platform framework? http://azureus.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

If Nokia had brain to use a true multiplatform framework, that "Maps downloader" could work inside ANY BROWSER of ANY OS. It is so sad that MS manages to trap people even in age of 2008. Of course, some must be clever and get paid for it. I am worried about the actual naive ones thinking MS would produce or let produce anything equal to their pyramid scheme named Windows.

Re:

[fejjie]

As was already mentioned earlier in this thread, if Nokia's software uses native (rather than managed) libraries to build their .NET 3.0 program, then they clearly didn't care about it being cross-platform.

If they built it purely in managed code and it doesn't work under Mono, then it is just a bug in Mono - file a bug so that we can fix it.

No need to insult us.

Re:

[Ilgaz]

I have picked Nokia Maps downloader on purpose since it as a 22 MB download results in 70-80 MB .NET 3.0 download which (forget Linux!) doesn't even exist on Windows 2000. The Windows 2000 which you can happily run Java 6 even faster thanks to the less bulk of XP/Vista.

Nobody sees that scheme of Microsoft? If someone at Nokia finally figures their high end customers who owns $400+ smartphones (that can run Maps) doesn't give a shit to how cheap Windows PC is and near 30% of them runs Mac OS X, what is need

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me why that deal matters exactly? Because Microsoft gave them money? Because you can read into the agreement things that aren't there (admission that Microsoft owns the patents to some GPL code). They gave up nothing, they give a lot back to the linux community, they provide the best packaging for KDE (in fact i'd say they're the de facto KDE distribution). This bitterness towards them needs to stop, they easily give the linux community as much as the Ubuntu project does.

Re:

[Anarke_Incarnate]

They give MORE than Ubuntu does. Ubuntu works off of the hard work of the Debian team and enhances UI look and feel. The underpinnings are worked on the Debian and the kernel hackers, et al. Novell is one of the biggest contributers to the kernel, Gnome, KDE and.... THEY are part of the Open Invention Network, who strive to PROTECT F/OSS users from patents.

Re:

[grommit]

openSUSE != Novell

Re:

[f0ad001]

openSuSE does equal Novell.

Novell SuSE is the commercial OS that Novell sells while openSuSE is the community edition. Both brought to you by...you guessed it, Novell.
http://www.opensuse.org/ [opensuse.org]

openSuSE is the test bed for new packages and configuration. Once vetted, those changes are moved upstream into Novell SuSE proper.

This is exactly the same way Fedora and RedHat work.

Should we also dump reality? Or competition?

[SplatMan_DK]

The only way SUSE will start a new era is if they dump Microsoft as a partner.

I respectfully disagree. I know many people have an almost religious crusade against Microsoft any company they are associated with - but I think there is a wider consideration which many people forget. Novells core business is connecting technologies which are for different reasons not already connected. And for the most part the products they connect are a mixture of (F)OSS and classic closed-source commercial software.

While you may disagree with their goals, and be almost religiously in opposition of them, I think they do more good than bad. They ultimately ensure that the customer/consumer has a wider choice in products and technologies, and they are IMHO they key to breaking the monopolistic world domination which certain vendors enjoy.

I honestly don't understand why some people believe Novells projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while similar cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good". I also don't understand why people see IBM's investments in Open Source projects as "good" while Novells are "bad".

In a free market, the users and customers benefit from having the widest range of products to choose from. Any company or community who is engaged in software projects which enhance portability and interconnectivity are "good" the way I see it. Especially when they release them under open source licenses - like Novell does.

Given the allready widespread use of .NET applications, being able to run them on a Linux cluster ensures that Linux can be a more attractive choice in a given scenario. The ability to provide end-users with Linux desktops which can run Win32 apps (WINE), read PDF documents, browse webpages created with Silverlight and use homepages full of fancy Shockwave Flash elements, makes it easier for a large Enterprise to choose Linux (any distro) as a client platform. In my view that enhances the competition - which is (almost) always good for the customers.

:-)

- Jesper

Re:

[amnezick]

Oops, run kid

Re:

[morari]

The newest Kubuntu (with KDE4) was way too bloated for my poor, old laptop. I've been looking around for something more lightweight since. I'm kind of leaning toward Mepis, but am not quite sure yet. When it comes to a 1.2ghz CPU and only 512mb of RAM, things get sticky. Add-in the fact that there's also all of these weird, proprietary onboard components and things become an utter pain.

Re:

[Flying Scotsman]

If you're interested in running a non-KDE desktop, have you considered Xubuntu [xubuntu.org]? It's the Ubuntu variant with the lighter-weight Xfce desktop. I run it on a 600Mhz Pentium III laptop with 128MB of RAM, and it works quite well (be sure to grab the "alternate install" disk if you're running with as little RAM as I am).

I had no issues with the non-standard desktop components on my laptop working out-of-the-box, but of course YMMV here. Wireless, sound, etc.

If Xfce is not light enough, you can always install

Re:

[PReDiToR]

My T22 (P3 900, 256, WiFi) runs openSUSE 10.3 with either KDE 3 or Joe's Window Manager [joewing.net] that I discovered by trying out DamnSmallLinux [damnsmalllinux.org].
Basically all I use my laptop for is running NX to my home machine, so a light fast small desktop is the best solution.

On the compatibility side, I do have to run ndiswrapper to make my Linksys PCMCIA WiFi work, but once it is in, KNetworkManager takes care of all the complicated stuff.

Re:

[Anonymous Cowpat]

I'm vaguely running xubuntu on a 600 MHz Celery with 64MB RAM. It can just about handle a firefox window with 3 or 4 tabs, or mythTV (photos), or Azureus at a real pinch.
My point being that it doesn't even need 128MB, although I wouldn't recommend that you try to make it work full time on 64.

</more data points>

Re:

[FishWithAHammer]

So...install KDE3? You have to go out of your way to download KDE4.

Re:

[X0563511]

No, you can choose Gnome, KDE3, KDE4, Minimal, and Command-Line. You can also manually select/deselect packages that will be installed. Hell, you can even add other media/repositories for use at that point. (think of actually using aptitude when installing debian/ubuntu, and having the debian-multimedia repo available at initial install)

Re:

[norminator]

Nowadays, distros like this will use one DVD image instead of a bunch of CD images. If you'd actually go to the download page [opensuse.org], you'd see that there are options for
1) a single live CD, for either KDE or Gnome,
2) a DVD, or
3) a network install

Re:Justin

[catscan2000]

At the risk of being labeled a troll, I typically tell colleagues who ask about the Microsoft deal that Apple has numerous patent and other technology licensing agreements with Microsoft, and yet we don't see a groundswell of people on Slashdot calling Apple on the carpet for their Microsoft agreements.

In response, I've heard that the difference is that Apple doesn't pretend to be fully open-source whereas Novell does to an extent, though Apple does have an open-source kernel and other bits in addition to a proprietary system. Similarly, Novell's SuSE (not openSuSE) is a product that users typically need to pay for. From a high-level view, this looks like both companies offer a proprietary system as well as an open-source subset of that proprietary system.

As a result -- at least, from that simplification of the issue -- I think that anti-SuSE people on Slashdot are treating Novell unfairly versus Apple. I'm not a fan of the Microsoft deal, either, but I do like openSuSE on technical and, especially, usability grounds, and that is why I both advocate for and use it both at home and at work.

Now I'm off to download the latest version :-)

(there goes my karma, though :-(. Please be nice!)

Re:

[Ilgaz]

Apple's users doesn't like Microsoft OS but some good things from Microsoft such as Office package is chart topper on Amazon Top 10 software list. Don't get fooled by Slashdot comments, see the actual download numbers on general user profile sites.

Microsoft and Apple relations have nothing to do with Novell and Microsoft partnership. For example, Apple sees the web developers and others insist on using Verdana etc. fonts. They PAY to Microsoft to get those fonts while Microsoft pays them for Truetype which

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:

[Just Some Guy]

I typically tell colleagues who ask about the Microsoft deal that Apple has numerous patent and other technology licensing agreements with Microsoft, and yet we don't see a groundswell of people on Slashdot calling Apple on the carpet for their Microsoft agreements.

I can't speak for everyone, but I couldn't care less if Apple uses MS patented or copyrighted code in their OS. I mind a whole hell of a lot if Novell accidentally managed to sneak some in, polluting my Ubuntu kernel with legal issues that I have no desire to be involved with.

Re:

[mooreti1]

I completely agree. The M$/Novell technical agreement is much less of a big deal than the community makes it out to be. So what if they have a patent agreement? It wasn't selling out since it never concerned the kernel, just the utilities used in Linux. That, and M$ has yet to prove any patent violations concerning Linux, which has always led me to believe that it touched more on the directory services issues.

Re:

[norminator]

I tried the beta a few weeks ago, and while I realize that a beta is a beta, and therefore subject to bugs, I have a hard time understanding why my no-frills Logitech USB mouse, which works with every other distribution of Linux or version of Windows that I've used in the past 5 years, would not work with the Open Suse beta.

That, and the network manager kept prompting me for my WEP key repeatedly, even when I had the hard switch for my wireless turned off.

And I couldn't stand the graphical package manager

Re:

[catscan2000]

openSUSE doesn't have an evaluation period. Thus, there is no need to be forced to install anything else other than, perhaps, the next version of openSUSE after your installed version is eventually end-of-lifed.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[SplatMan_DK]

and we all know SuSE is now at least half-evil.

Would you care to explain WHY? I mean, really explain. With rational arguments - not emotional, religious or similar irrational explanations. Honestly, give me SOLID ARGUMENTS here. And perhaps a few examples. Did somebodys business close because of the MS/Novell deal? Did someone get sued? Did FOSS projects die? Did customers end up with fewer choices? What????
:-)

your boss says "let's try a Linux distro for a while", please, don't suggest OpenSuSE

A good recommendation in a corporate setting is always based on a good business case. I would be happy to evaluate your arguments for not choosing SUSE for a company, if they are solid and based on rational arguments.

Untill then I will most certainly recommend SUSE if the business case supports it. And in some cases it will - no questions asked. Novell makes great cross-platform products, so if a company needs, say, a cluster of servers capable of running both J2EE and .NET, it would make a lot of sense comparing SUSE with MONO/JBOSS vs Windows 2008 with BEA (just an example, insert other similar server-cases here).

Or perhaps we could imagine a company wanting to convert their outdated XP clients with Linux clients in order to postpone hardware upgrades (which would be needed in order to migrate to Vista). Perhaps the ability to show webpages with Silverlight elements was an important criteria? What about browsers capable of showing PDF documents, MS Word documents, Flash content, etc? All these are cross-platform initiatives, and I honestly believe that Linux won't make in into the corporate environment without these.

I don't understand why some people think Novell and their projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while other cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good". I also fail to see why the same people often argue that IBM's investments in Open Source projects are "good" while Novells are "bad". The discussion about Microsoft/Linux/Novell needs to be elevated to a level where it is based on the same standard you would demand in other more scientific debates. Drop the emotional and irrational arguments. Give me facts and examples from real life.

Users and customers benefit from a free market. It gives them the widest range of products to choose from. Any community or company who is engaged in software projects which enhance portability and interconnectivity are "good" as far as I am concerned. Even more so when they are releases them under open source licenses - like MONO and Moonlight.

:-)
- Jesper

Re:

[FishWithAHammer]

use Mono today and tomorrow there will be more reasons to move to Windows.

Oh, hell yeah. Because GTK# and QT# work great on Windows, right?

Get a clue before you start whining about OMG TEH MICROSOFTS. I understand that you have a retarded knee-jerk hatred of Microsoft. Carrying that over to Novell (who, might I add, went to bat against SCO--or have you already forgotten that?) because they support Mono, a tool for interoperability that doesn't suck nearly as much as Java, is amazingly retarded.

Novell's business is making systems talk to each other. They don't really care if thos

Re:

[andrewd18]

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. The installer asks if you want Gnome 2.22, KDE 3.5.9, or KDE 4.0.4, right? You get to pick, it's not like you're locked into using KDE 4.

Re:

[PReDiToR]

preditor@<mybox>:~> uname -a
Linux <mybox> 2.6.25.7-PReDiToR #1 Thu Jun 19 04:44:46 BST 2008 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux

Don't like the openSUSE kernel? Don't use it.

Just like that.