Become a fan of Slashdot on Facebook

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
KDE Software GUI GNU is Not Unix Linux

A Case Study In GPLv2 / GPLv3 Compatibility 239

An anonymous reader writes "A project called OpenChange is working to develop an open source client library for Microsoft Exchange. They are heavily dependent on Samba code for the underlying protocol support and have been forced to move to GPLv3 once Samba moved. This has gotten in the way of legally adding support to other software such as KDE, which is unwilling or unable to go GPLv3." It sounds like all the developers involved expect the GPLv2/GPLv3 issues to be resolved in time.

Update: 10/01 12:26 GMT by KD : Dan Shearer, of OpenChange and the Samba Team, wrote in to correct the anonymous submitter's mistaken implication that OpenChange moved reluctantly to GPLv3. Read on for his actual position.


I'm Dan Shearer of both the OpenChange project and the Samba Team, and I wrote the message on bacula-devel linked by anonymous' original post. I would like to correct the unfortunate impression given by anonymous that OpenChange has been reluctantly forced to change licenses because Samba has moved to the GPLv3. In fact, OpenChange see that the GPLv3 is entirely appropriate for Samba, and OpenChange plans to use the GPLv3 even when not necessarily required to do so by upstream licenses. The move to GPLv3 was one of two license changes we plan to announce on openchange.org in the next few days.

The specific issue highlighted in the post is not a general GPLv3/v2 incompatibility. Code which is licensed under the GPLv2 but no later version is incompatible with the GPLv3. There are a few significant examples of GPLv2-only code, including KDE as mentioned and also the Linux kernel, which cannot be linked to GPLv3 code. That is a matter of policy for those few projects. We would of course be delighted to be able to use their code as appropriate if they change their policy at some point, but we have no complaint if they do not choose to do so. The GPL offers many choices and this is one of them.

Most GPLv2 code includes the words "or any later version", which is a statement of trust by the licensor in the people who create those later versions. The GPLv3 was created as a community effort, a very large and representative community effort, and in that sense many people think that this trust has been maintained. Including the Samba Team and the OpenChange project. If you are unsure about this, go to archive.org and search for "Eben Moglen 2007", which will give you a choice of media and plain text for the summary talk in Edinburgh a day or two before the GPLv3 was released. We respect that there are different opinions on licensing including some who do not like the GPLv3, however it is indisputable that the GPLv3 is very much a community production rather than a statement from the FSF. That fact of community evolution supports the idea that the trust implied by "or any later version" has been maintained.

It might also be helpful to reflect on the history of OpenChange. OpenChange is an independent work from a team led by Julien Kerihuel built on the research and tools produced by the Samba Team. OpenChange has been the direct beneficiary of a lot of effort contributed by the Samba Team over the last four years. We strongly support Samba's use of the GPLv3 as being an appropriate response to the current legal environment.

The thread the anonymous poster linked to was in response to Kern Sibbald of the excellent Bacula project. Kern has his particular views, and we respect those views, but they are by no means general. (Readers may also like to read the entire thread on bacula-devel.) When we look at the numbers at Palamida we find many thousands of projects that OpenChange can link against, besides all the others with compatible licenses such as the Apache license. We don't feel very lonely :-)
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

A Case Study In GPLv2 / GPLv3 Compatibility

Comments Filter:
  • Non-issue (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Raul654 ( 453029 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @03:30PM (#20803633) Homepage
    How is this an issue? If KDE2 uses the GPL2, it clearly says "or any future version", which makes it forward compatible with the GPL3, which means it can be mixed with other GPL3 software. I see nothing in the linked article that contradicts this.
    • by AuMatar ( 183847 )
      It can be, however any version with GPLv3 code is no longer GPLv2 compliant- the moment you mix you become GPLv3 only until it's removed. The problem is KDE doesn't want to move to GPLv3 only.
      • Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Raul654 ( 453029 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @03:39PM (#20803705) Homepage
        So the dependency tree looks like this:
        Samba --OpenChange -- KDE

        KDE operates on top of OpenChange, which operates on top of KDE. From the write up, OpenChange is "heavily dependent on Samba code for the underlying protocol support". So they mix in outside (Samba) code which changed license, and thus are forced to change the license. Fair enough - they want the free lunch, they have to use the license specified by the guy who wrote the code.

        What doesn't make any sense is that OpenChange cannot support KDE now. Of course they can. As long as they don't share any code, they can be licensed independently.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Shulai ( 34423 )
        Nope, the problem is Qt being GPL2 only, so KDE is unable to use GPL3 OpenChange code, because any resulting binary won't be legally redistributable.
        • Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Interesting)

          by kripkenstein ( 913150 ) on Monday October 01, 2007 @12:59AM (#20807079) Homepage

          Nope, the problem is Qt being GPL2 only, so KDE is unable to use GPL3 OpenChange code, because any resulting binary won't be legally redistributable.
          Exactly. Qt is GPL2 only, so KDE needs to be GPL2 as well (even if it were 'GPL2 or above', the effective license would be GPL2). This is a serious problem for Qt-based projects like KDE.

          It is precisely for this reason that a GUI platform should not be GPLed; it should be LGPLed (which GTK/GNOME is, in the relevant portions). And also precisely for this reason that the Linux kernel, while GPL, is effectively LGPL for code in userspace according to their interpretation. Otherwise, the kernel would have this exact same problem - you wouldn't be able to run Samba on it.
    • Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Insightful)

      by stevenvi ( 779021 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @03:36PM (#20803663) Homepage
      The "or any future version" is optional for the developers. I have removed it from all of my software, as I do not want to license my code under rules which have not yet been written.

      That said, I have no clue if KDE includes that line or not.
      • Re:Non-issue (Score:4, Informative)

        by the_brobdingnagian ( 917699 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @04:18PM (#20803935) Homepage
        Every line in the GPL is optional for developers. You can release your code with any license you want, including one you made up yourself. I can not understand why anyone would want to release their code with a "or any future version" clause. With this clause, you give away all control of the content of the license. If RMS suddenly decides the BSD license is great and writes a GPL4 with the contents of the BSD license, your code is BSD licensed too.
        • Wrong. The GPL license is copyrighted (but you can do sort of 'constitutional amendments' and get the same effect).
          • Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Informative)

            by the_brobdingnagian ( 917699 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @05:03PM (#20804215) Homepage
            The GPL is copyrighted, but you CAN modify it. You just don't have the right to call it the GPL if you modify the licence.

            Can I modify the GPL and make a modified license?
            You can use the GPL terms (possibly modified) in another license provided that you call your license by another name and do not include the GPL preamble, and provided you modify the instructions-for-use at the end enough to make it clearly different in wording and not mention GNU (though the actual procedure you describe may be similar).
            ......
            From: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifyGPL [gnu.org]
        • by grumbel ( 592662 )
          ### I can not understand why anyone would want to release their code with a "or any future version" clause.

          One simple reason: to keep incompatibility issues to a minimum. I consider license incompatibility a far bigger issue than RMS releasing GPLv4 with BSD text pasted in. Just look at BSD, its all BSDL and it seems to be doing quite fine, so if that is the *worse case*, I really don't see it as a big problem with it. I of course prefer the additional protection the GPL gives, but I really wouldn't want to
        • It's worse than that. For any useful contribution to a GNU project, you have to actually assign your copyright to the FSF, so that if RMS decided one day to take it all closed-proprietary and sell it to Microsoft (and stacked/convinced the FSF board favorably), you've got no recourse.
          • by FLEB ( 312391 )
            How's that? It's not like they can retroactively zip up the licensing terms they made previously. They may "own" the copyright, but it's been licensed to anyone under GPL viral-license terms. Don't like it? Fork it.
      • The "or any future version" is optional for the developers. I have removed it from all of my software, as I do not want to license my code under rules which have not yet been written.

        That said, I have no clue if KDE includes that line or not.
        But the future license has to have the same spirit as the GPLv2! How can that legally watertight clause not inspire confidence in you?
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        The "or any future version" is optional for the developers. I have removed it from all of my software, as I do not want to license my code under rules which have not yet been written.

        from the GPL:

        9. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of the General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns.

        (emphasis mine)

        In other words, if RMS decides to make the GPL7 with a copy of the Microsoft Vista EULA (or even the BSDL) -- Not only could you renounce it as 'not GPL' as envisioned in the license, but you could conceivably sue him for breach of

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by samkass ( 174571 )
          This is silly. The GPLv3 is very different from the GPLv2 "in spirit", but no one is calling foul on it, nor would it be easy to defend in court. The GPLv3, for the first time, departs from the "share and share alike" nature of the source code and attempts to dictate what hardware it should be allowed to run on and what hardware makers are allowed to do. This is not in the same spirit as GPLv2, which is about software freedom. RMS changed his mind, then managed to sell it to people as "closing loopholes
          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by marcosdumay ( 620877 )

            "The GPLv3, for the first time, departs from the "share and share alike" nature of the source code and attempts to dictate what hardware it should be allowed to run on and what hardware makers are allowed to do with the code they don't own"

            Fixed it for you, but I uess that GPLv2 did the same.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      The issue is that the "future version" clause means that you can use the code under one version OR another, not that the newer versions supersede the old. In other words, if GPLv2 says doing X is okay but Y is not, and GPLv3 says X is bad, but Y is good, then you can use code licensed in that manner by doing X or Y (or both, or neither).

      The effect of this is that if a project is GPLv3 licensed (like Samba), you can't use it to do X just because GPLv2 says you can. What this means for the project is that
      • If there is an issue that keeps KDE from going into GPLv3, then there is an issue that would keep anyone from moving it there. The GPLv3 also says that you need to certify the patents are usable by everyone and to some extent you take on the liability of doing to. So when you take something that cannot legally be moved to GPLv3 by the original authors, it would be much the same with anyone else wanting to do so. Unless they are willing to ignore the terms of the GPLv3, but that would just create a bunch of
      • by leuk_he ( 194174 )
        I doubt you will be running into real trouble, In the example given:

        KDE seems to have the (or a later version) in 3 header files I looked up. They still have the option to use a gplv2 version of samba.

        And even then if you think your software is that important you can still contact the author of the gplv2 file you want to link/include in your gplv3 code and ask for special permission to include it in your project.
        • Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Informative)

          by phantomlord ( 38815 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @04:24PM (#20803969) Journal
          On Gentoo

          grep "version 2" /usr/kde/3.5/include/* | wc
          393 4848 40829
          grep "version 2" /usr/kde/3.5/include/* | grep "later version" | wc
          217 2878 22629
          So, it would seem that 217 files are GPL2+ and and 176 GPL2(only) as far as KDE is concerned. However, KDE is built on QT which is licensed as

          grep "version 2" /usr/include/qt4/Qt*/* | wc
          994 10962 104446
          grep "version 2" /usr/include/qt4/Qt*/* | grep "later version" | wc
          0 0 0
          So it would seem that QT is GPL2 only. A quick scan of a couple header files notes that

          ** This file may be used under the terms of the GNU General Public
          ** License version 2.0 as published by the Free Software Foundation
          ** and appearing in the file LICENSE.GPL included in the packaging of
          ** this file. Please review the following information to ensure GNU
          ** General Public Licensing requirements will be met:
          ** http://trolltech.com/products/qt/licenses/licensing/opensource/ [trolltech.com]
          So... if you can somehow mix the KDE parts that are GPL2+ without using the QT library at all and without using the KDE parts that are GPL2(only), you're safe to mix GPL3 code with KDE. Good luck with that, though.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by flooey ( 695860 )
        The issue is that the "future version" clause means that you can use the code under one version OR another, not that the newer versions supersede the old. In other words, if GPLv2 says doing X is okay but Y is not, and GPLv3 says X is bad, but Y is good, then you can use code licensed in that manner by doing X or Y (or both, or neither).

        Almost right. In legal English, "or" means exclusive or. So, when it says "or any future version" it means you get to pick a single version. Thus, if GPLv2 allows X an
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by modir ( 66559 )
      I see another reason why this is a non issue. They can use an older version of samba which was released under GPLv2. They don't even need to switch to other libraries. If they want the can even fork samba.
      • Having to maintain and update a separate version of a library, especially one as large as samba, is hardly what I would call a "non-issue."
    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by k1980pc ( 942645 )
      No.
      "Or any future version" clause means the code can be forked and "the later version" license assigned. Existing code is never automatically license-upgraded ( I know it is not a word)

      I do not think anybody will be interested in forking big projects unless they have the backing of a large group/any company.

      That said, I think it is a non issue in this case as long as they do not intend to change Samba or KDE code in anyway.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Actually, the problem lies not with KDE. The core KDE Libraries are actually LGPL (parts even use some BSD license), which should be pretty compatible with the GPLv3. Just like many KDE programs are actually GPLv2+. The 'problem' is that as of yet, Qt has been licensed under GPLv2 only (and slightly more, they allow linking with a selection of other free software licenses as well, as far as I know). Which in turn makes all KDE applications linking with Qt GPLv2 at run-time. The obvious reason would be that
    • by Kjella ( 173770 )
      If everyone contributing has used the optional "or any future version", yes. Many people haven't because they don't like terms that aren't written yet, the legal departments in corporations certainly don't and some just don't agree with what the FSF has put in GPLv3. This means that many projects simply couldn't include GPLv3 code if they'd want to. And even if all that was true, there's the question of whether you'd want to. "my code can be used in both v2 and v3 projects" doesn't imply that they want to m
  • by Anonymous Coward
    This is the sort of reason why I use FreeBSD, and try my best to use BSD-, MIT-, or zlib-licensed software as much as possible. Even just as a user, I prefer the freedom and certainty that those licenses bring. Frankly, I don't need the hassle of unintentionally running afoul of the GPL.

    When it comes to the open source software that I develop and release, I always use the MIT license. That's just the safest thing for me to do, and the safest thing for those who want to use, modify and redistribute the softw
    • by Xenographic ( 557057 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @04:36PM (#20804051) Journal
      > Even just as a user, I prefer the freedom and certainty that those licenses bring. Frankly, I don't need the hassle of unintentionally running afoul of the GPL.

      Did you totally miss the part of the GPL that says it doesn't cover use? You can't run afoul of the GPL merely by using software.

      As the GPL [gnu.org] puts it:

      9. Acceptance Not Required for Having Copies.

      You are not required to accept this License in order to receive or run a copy of the Program. Ancillary propagation of a covered work occurring solely as a consequence of using peer-to-peer transmission to receive a copy likewise does not require acceptance.

      > When it comes to the open source software that I develop and release, I always use the MIT license.

      And I thank you for that. I don't care what your motives, I appreciate those who share code.

      But please don't spread FUD about the GPL. Is that too much to ask?
      • The FSF and others have repeatedly asserted that the GPL on a library extends to any application that dynamically links to it. That is "use" as in "utilization". Furthermore, the linkage does not actually occur until runtime, which is "use" as in "execution".

        Fortunately, most free software libraries are LGPL or freer.
        • Perhaps, but exactly what relevance does that have to this discussion?

          I mean, you know it's not at all the type of use I was talking about, and like you point out, even the FSF makes sure that it's not an actual problem in practice by using the LGPL for libraries.

          It's only natural for people to want to protect what's important to them. But why must we begrudge each other for protecting those rights most important to them? The GPL protects the end users, the BSD license protects the people using the code i
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by aminorex ( 141494 )
        I don't see his concern as "FUD about the GPL". The presence of GPL software on my hard drive means that my hard drive is legally encumbered with complex social structures of highly unpredictable consequences. I can't freely use useful software components that I find on my system without performing an unconscionably time-consuming degree of research on the licensing strictures and the state-of-the-art in their legal interpretation -- at least not if I give a rat's sphincter about copyright law. And it's
        • To put that another way, any complex legal document (and the GPLv3 is quite so) comes with it's own built-in FUD. The very purpose for the existence of complex legal documents is often the creation of FUD, for which purpose they are excellent tools. If you want to stop spreading GPL FUD, perhaps the most effective approach would be to radically simplify the GPL, along the model of, say, public domain.
      • Re: (Score:2, Troll)

        by dozer ( 30790 )
        > Did you totally miss the part of the GPL that says it doesn't cover use?

        Did you totally miss the part of the GPL that prevents tivoization? The FSF doesn't actually claim that anymore, do they? GPLv3's anti-tivoization clauses are all about use.

        You're right, GPLv2 doesn't cover use. GPLv3 does. And that's why so many free software programmers have deep problems with v3.
    • by vertinox ( 846076 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @04:53PM (#20804159)
      I'm not going to burden them with the many questions the GPLv2 and GPLv3 raise.

      GPL is designed to give Freedom to the 3rd person in the chain of development. BSD only gives freedom to the second person in the chain, but he can restrict the 3rd person's freedom if they so choose. The 1st person is of course the original developer and he can do whatever he pleases regardless of license.

      Hence, with BSD your code is only free to the first two persons and even though the 2nd person can be generous and release his changes in BSD to the 3rd... The 3rd is still free to restrict the freedoms of the fourth and so on.

      GPLv3 makes sure you can't take away freedom at any point in the chain of development of anyone else that comes after you.
      • The BSD and MIT licenses follow the elements released under those licenses. Yes, you can add elements under other licenses, and thus restrict freedom, but if you are only trying to compete with Free you will lose (case in point: Pervasive PostgreSQL).

        There are plenty of reasons to contribute back to BSD/MIT licensed projects, both moral and economic.

        Note also that the GPL doesn't guarantee anyone any sort of freedom either. If I set up an enhanced Samba service (an SAAS model), I don't have to provide my
      • by Goaway ( 82658 )

        Hence, with BSD your code is only free to the first two persons...
        And with GPL, your code is only free to the first and third persons.

        Really, the GPL is all seemingly all about how the FSF does not trust programmers, and wants to control them. As a programmer I see no reason to trust the FSF in return.
    • This is the sort of reason why I use FreeBSD, and try my best to use BSD-, MIT-, or zlib-licensed software as much as possible.

      So, tell us, where can we find the BSD-licensed equivalents of OpenChange, Samba, and Qt?

      I just want [...]

      Well, and I just want a flying car and a toilet seat made out of gold. It ain't gonna happen, baby. Licenses are complicated, and there are so many of them, because the real world is complicated.

      And if you release the wrong software under the BSD license, you could end up scre
  • GPL X Confusion (Score:3, Insightful)

    by WED Fan ( 911325 ) <akahige@trashmaCOUGARil.net minus cat> on Sunday September 30, 2007 @03:39PM (#20803713) Homepage Journal
    It is this kind of confusion that could lead to many great ideas to be stillborn. But, maybe that is the point.
  • by Dlugar ( 124619 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @03:40PM (#20803721) Homepage
    I dislike the GPLv3, [indessed.com] but I use GPLv2 for everything I write myself. I know there aren't many out there like me, but if there are enough, I think it might cause yet another regrettable split. Are the benefits of the GPLv3 over v2 (which seem very minimal if existant at all) worth the downsides? Only time will tell.

    Dlugar
    • As I understand it, the GPLv3 is actually much more compatible with other Open Source licenses than the GPLv2 was. I honestly don't know of anything I would consider a downside to the GPLv3. I think it's all around a better license than the GPLv2.

      • by Dlugar ( 124619 )

        As I understand it, the GPLv3 is actually much more compatible with other Open Source licenses than the GPLv2 was.

        Are there any it's compatible with that the GPLv2 isn't, that v3 doesn't have a special exception for? That would be news to me.

        I honestly don't know of anything I would consider a downside to the GPLv3. I think it's all around a better license than the GPLv2.

        I think the biggest downside to the GPLv3 is for those who simply want to protect the four freedoms [gnu.org], and don't feel like a general-purpose

        • Any with patent clauses - the apache license for example. Or the one eclipse uses.
        • by fsmunoz ( 267297 )

          Are there any it's compatible with that the GPLv2 isn't, that v3 doesn't have a special exception for? That would be news to me.

          The ASL for one. And, depending whom from the BSD field you talk with, and depending on the mood and day of the month, the BSDL/MIT/ISC one. Actually, that also depends on whom you speak with, but the GPLv3 explicitly allows for the addition of the legal notices of the above, while the GPLv2 didn't.

          (...)don't feel like a general-purpose software license is the right place for combating anything else that they disagree with (e.g. software patents, DRM, etc).

          The GPLv2 already had anti-patent provision, so it's not something particular to the GPLv3. DRM protection follows the same thinking as the patent protection in the GPLv2.

          (...)I'm much more on the BSD-camp side of letting people do whatever the hell they want with the code that I write.(...)

          That's great, and you have plenty of

          • by Dlugar ( 124619 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @05:11PM (#20804255) Homepage

            Er... how does this fall in line with your previous "I'm much more in the BSD camp" sentence? The "GPL is Evil!" is not something that has been uttered only since the GPLv3 but at least since the early 90's when BSD appeared in it's free form. Since you talked about patent protection being something that should be out of scope of a licence I don't think the GPL (v2 or v3) is really the ideal licence for you, but then again you are the one who own your code and I'm sure you know what licence you prefer (perhaps there are probably other reasons for your choosing the GPLv2 that you didn't mention).
            Sorry, I was being unclear. I meant that I felt that patent retaliation [gnu.org] clauses should be out of scope for a general-purpose software license.

            My requirements for a software license center around Stallman's original Four Freedoms [gnu.org]. Any software I write I want to have those four freedoms protected, both for what I distribute as well as derivative works, but have no other restrictions, either for developers or users.

            The GPLv3, I feel, unnecessarily limits Freedom 0, as well as containing additional clauses that do more than protect the four freedoms. The BSD license doesn't preserve these freedoms for derivative works, so it's not my ideal license either. The patent clauses of GPLv2 simply say, "any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all", which adequately protects the four freedoms, but doesn't make any further restrictions. It's not what I would call an "anti-patent" provision in the same sense as the GPLv3.

            Regarding DRM: it is impossible, in my opinion, for DRM to infringe upon the Four Freedoms in a software sense. Software-based DRM cannot prevent users from exercising any of their Four Freedoms, because since they have access to the source code, they can simply remove the DRM portions of the software. For DRM to work at all with open-source software, the DRM must be entirely hardware-based, and, in every case, that exact software will run on modified or alternate hardware. Thus, I believe anti-DRM provisions are out of scope for a software license, because it attempts to dictate what sort of hardware you are allowed to distribute with your software.

            What it really comes down to for me is the four freedoms: anything the license does that is above and beyond those four freedoms is something I don't want. Any of the four freedoms it fails to protect is a deficiency. And that's why I've chosen the GPLv2 for my software.

            Dlugar
            • by jonwil ( 467024 )
              Tivoization clearly infringes on the first freedom as it prevents you from running the program for certain purposes.
              • by Dlugar ( 124619 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @07:17PM (#20804951) Homepage

                Tivoization clearly infringes on the first freedom as it prevents you from running the program for certain purposes.
                I disagree. Tivoization is a modification to hardware that makes the hardware incapable of running certain code. But it doesn't really have anything to do with the software at all.

                I could construct a piece of hardware that will only run an unmodified RHEL3 image, but never actually distribute that image myself. By building and selling that piece of hardware, have I somehow removed any freedoms of all the people running RHEL3? Not at all. They still have access to the source code, they can modify it and distribute their modifications, they can run the code for whatever purposes they want, etc. The only restriction is to the hardware, not the software. Furthermore, there may be very legitimate reasons why somebody might want to ship a piece of crippled hardware that can only run a single image. Even the FSF has recognized that in their DRM exceptions in the GPLv3.

                I could agree that some people might interpret Tivoization as an infringement of the first freedom, but a statement so strong as "clearly infringes" I have to disagree with.

                Dlugar
                • by mwvdlee ( 775178 )
                  Tivoization breaks rule 1. The rule clearly differentiates between the source code and the program (binary) and says that the program (binary) must be adaptable to your needs. On a device like Tivo, source code is available, you can even generate a program from it but you CANNOT adapt the program; you can only create a new program that is unusable as an adaption of the original program as the system does not allow you to use it in place of the original program.
            • I believe anti-DRM provisions are out of scope for a software license, because it attempts to dictate what sort of hardware you are allowed to distribute with your software.

              I can really understand your point of view. It seems ludicrous to dictate what hardware can be distributed with your software at first, but I see it this way: If the hardware affects the behavior of your software, it conceptually may as well be a part of the software.

              If the hardware has the ability to alter the fundamental behavior of the software, I think it's fair and logical for the software license to protect its self from the abuse of that ability.

              • by Dlugar ( 124619 )

                I can really understand your point of view. It seems ludicrous to dictate what hardware can be distributed with your software at first, but I see it this way: If the hardware affects the behavior of your software, it conceptually may as well be a part of the software.

                (I already said some of this in another response.)

                Tivoization is a modification to hardware that makes the hardware incapable of running certain code. But it doesn't really have anything to do with the software at all.

                I could construct a piece

                • Furthermore, there may be very legitimate reasons why somebody might want to ship a piece of crippled hardware that can only run a single image.

                  That's true. I guess I automatically assumed abuses would be more prevalent than legitimate reasons, but that isn't necessarily true. You're right. But even now while I'm pondering that new view of the situation I can't help but think that a lot of those legitimate reasons could be short sighted. Like, say your device has security holes in its software image but the device vendor has gone belly up for some reason or another and thus can't fix it for you? Sure, they may have restricted the device to a

                  • by Dlugar ( 124619 )
                    Thanks for the reasoned response!

                    So I agree with you on a lot of this stuff, and I certainly think GPL3 seems to stretch beyond the bounds of copyright and software licensing (meaning, it's moving beyond the purpose of the original GPL and GPL2), but I believe it does guarantee a certain measure of choice, control, and freedom to the end users of the software that GPL2 doesn't. Do I like that it limits the choices of device vendors? No. You've convinced me that it's less free than GPL2 in that respect (than

            • because it attempts to dictate what sort of hardware you are allowed to distribute with your software.

              Hardware that shouldn't be able to limit the basic 4 freedoms.
              That's as simple as that.

              GPLv2 : mainly insist about maintaining those 4 freedoms.
              GPLv3 : tries to stop any circumvented why by which the 4 freedoms could be blocked.

              On one hand you're right : suddenly, we're not speaking any more about software only, but also about hardware, although it's a software license.
              On the other hand : what's the point o

        • by Bogtha ( 906264 )

          I think the biggest downside to the GPLv3 is for those who simply want to protect the four freedoms, and don't feel like a general-purpose software license is the right place for combating anything else that they disagree with (e.g. software patents, DRM, etc). I'm much more on the BSD-camp side of letting people do whatever the hell they want with the code that I write. I don't care what you do with the derivative works, as long as you give others the freedom to do whatever they want too.

          So why don't

          • by Dlugar ( 124619 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @05:17PM (#20804293) Homepage

            So why don't you use the usual trick of specifying GPLv2 or later? That way you don't force anybody into agreeing with the further restrictions of GPLv3 that they don't agree with, but you aren't needlessly incompatible with those people who do choose to use GPLv3.
            This is an intriguing idea, but I'll repeat my goals regarding software licenses: "Any software I write I want to have [Stallman's] four freedoms protected, both for what I distribute as well as derivative works, but have no other restrictions, either for developers or users."

            If someone were to take my code, and extend it with GPLv3-only code, then the derivative works would have more restrictions than Stallman's four freedoms, which is something I don't want to have happen. I would be unable to take their changes back, for example, and use them at a company who was worried about the patent retaliation [gnu.org] clauses, or other restrictions that aren't present in v2.

            Dlugar
      • No, it is not (Score:3, Interesting)

        by einhverfr ( 238914 )
        The GPL v2 required that dependencies have their source available. Because there was no requirement to release the entire corresponding source as a single work, dependencies could have arbitrary licenses provided that the source was redistributed.

        The GPL v3 requires that the corresponding source is distributed as a single work, under the GPL v3, which means that all dependencies part of that work (defined in section 1) must be GPL v3 compatible.

        Now, the real killer is Section 7, Paragraph 2, which states t
      • Since the GPLv2 is the biggest open-source license and is compatible with the FPLv2, that isn't true =)
  • by EvilRyry ( 1025309 ) on Sunday September 30, 2007 @03:47PM (#20803757) Journal
    The poster missed out on half of the introduction to OpenChange. Since most people won't visit the website, I'll fill in the blank.

    OpenChange is basically the Samba of Exchange. It aims to provide both a library to be used in clients (as mentioned), and also provide a drop in replacement for Microsoft Exchange server.

    Personally, I'm a bit weary of the project. Although it would be nice to have an open source server thats natively compatible with Outlook, and provides an easy transition off of Microsoft products, I'd much rather see a real Open standard take hold rather than turning MAPI into a pseudo standard like Samba has done to CIFS and is doing with Active Directory. Perhaps this is the best that can be done considering how entrenched Microsoft Exchange/Outlook has become in many companies.
    • by Bert64 ( 520050 )
      What you really need, is a modular server which supports both a standard protocol and one (or more) proprietary ones...
      That way people can wean themselves off the proprietary protocols gradually, while moving to a standard one.
    • by Aladrin ( 926209 )
      You're tired of it? Ohhh, you mean 'wary', not 'weary.'

      People have tried time and time again to make a new 'standard' take over the market, and it very, very rarely works. It has to be superior in every way, or too many people will simply stick with the old tried and true version. Even then, it has to gain a good following before mainstream will even learn of its existance.

      The best way to get your new standard off the ground is as the other responder said: Make a server that does both, but better. You'
    • MS Exchange actually uses an open protocol licensed from The Open Group. MS made some changes to it, but the bulk of it is still the original DCE protocol: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6368 [linuxjournal.com]
    • by dbIII ( 701233 )

      and provides an easy transition off of Microsoft products

      There won't be one. There's a choice between having open methods of communicating like email or the collections of assorted bits mashed together that is Exchange. There's also the problematic email client that comes as a free gift with other packages that is Outlook - it doesn't behave well with much other than vanilla POP and Exchange.

      What makes sense is to change to something completely different when there is a major advantage instead of trying a

  • The idea is to get MS to think there is a riff in teh open source community that they can exploit.
    And when they go to exploit it, the open source community will stand together and tell MS not to mess with family.

    It'll make Time Magizine cover, even better than Bill Gates did when he yelled piracy as Time cover storied it as the great software flap.
    • If one is going to lay a trap, one should at least have a vague idea of how the victim is going to trigger it. What exactly is the action you believe MS is going to be suckered into doing?
  • by DanShearer ( 7067 ) * on Monday October 01, 2007 @03:58AM (#20807849) Homepage
    I'm Dan Shearer of both the OpenChange project and the Samba Team, and I wrote the message on bacula-devel linked by anonymous' original post. I would like to correct the unfortunate impression given by anonymous that OpenChange has been reluctantly forced to change licenses because Samba has moved to the GPLv3. In fact, OpenChange see that the GPLv3 is entirely appropriate for Samba, and OpenChange plans to use the GPLv3 even when not necessarily required to do so by upstream licenses. The move to GPLv3 was one of two license changes we plan to announce on openchange.org in the next few days.

    The specific issue highlighted in the post is not a general GPLv3/v2 incompatibility. Code which is licensed under the GPLv2 but no later version is incompatible with the GPLv3. There are a few significant examples of GPLv2-only code, including KDE as mentioned and also the Linux kernel, which cannot be linked to GPLv3 code. That is a matter of policy for those few projects. We would of course be delighted to be able to use their code as appropriate if they change their policy at some point, but we have no complaint if they do not choose to do so. The GPL offers many choices and this is one of them.

    Most GPLv2 code includes the words "or any later version", which is a statement of trust by the licensor in the people who create those later versions. The GPLv3 was created as a community effort, a very large and representative community effort, and in that sense many people think that this trust has been maintained. Including the Samba Team and the OpenChange project. If you are unsure about this, go to archive.org and search for "Eben Moglen 2007", which will give you a choice of media and plain text for the summary talk in Edinburgh a day or two before the GPLv3 was released. We understand there are different opinions on licensing including some who do not like the GPLv3, however it is indisputable that the GPLv3 is very much a community production rather than a statement from the FSF. That fact of community evolution supports the idea that the trust implied by "or any later version" has been maintained.

    It might also be helpful to reflect on the history of OpenChange. OpenChange is an independent work from a team led by Julien Kerihuel built on the research and tools produced by the Samba Team. OpenChange has been the direct beneficiary of a lot of effort contributed by the Samba Team over the last four years. We strongly support Samba's use of the GPLv3 as being an appropriate response to the current legal environment.

    The thread the anonymous poster linked to was in response to Kern Sibbald of the excellent Bacula project. Kern has his particular views, and we respect those views, but they are by no means general. (Readers may also like to read the entire thread on bacula-devel.) When we look at the numbers at Palamida (http://gpl3.palamida.com:8080/index.jsp) we find many thousands of projects that OpenChange can link against, besides all the others with compatible licenses such as the Apache license. We don't feel very lonely :-)

Put your Nose to the Grindstone! -- Amalgamated Plastic Surgeons and Toolmakers, Ltd.

Working...