Open Source Community's Double Standard 336
AlexGr writes to point out a really good point Matt Asay raises in his CNET News Blog: Why do we praise closed source companies who open up a little bit, but damn open source companies who close down a little bit? "Deja vu. Remember 2002? That's when Red Hat decided to split its code into Red Hat Advanced Server (now Red Hat Enterprise Linux) and Fedora. Howls of protest and endless hand-wringing ensued: How dare Red Hat not give everything away for free? Enter 2007. MySQL decides to comply with the GNU General Public License and only give its tested, certified Enterprise code to those who pay for the service underlying that code (gasp!). Immediately cries of protest are raised, How dare MySQL not give everything away for free?"
Human Nature (Score:5, Insightful)
Example: If a girl is a real bitch then people expect her to be a bitch and if she is suddenly nice one day, then people say "Wow, she's so nice today". But if someone is nice all the time then one day gets angry people say "What's wrong with her, sheesh."
Its not a double standard, its human nature. Nuff said, discussion over.
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Funny)
Why do we praise slave states (Score:5, Insightful)
The issue is not a "double standard" unless you use the current "mainstream media" Orwellian definition of "fairness."
The predjudice is for freedom, openness and opportunity. When you compound closing of source by the inclusion of earlier community contributions, testing and evangelism - you then reduce freedom to a marketing tool.
Re:Why do we praise slave states (Score:4, Informative)
Its not that SugarCRM will ever totally open, nor will RH totally close... the author seems to imply that both will continue with some open, some closed source. I think its a valid question... why not continue to critise SugarCRM for not opening the rest, and praise RH for not closing more?
Re:Why do we praise slave states (Score:5, Funny)
Wouldn't that be cheating? I bet you're the kind of guy who reads the instruction manual before putting the widget together.
The blurb is actually pretty accurate (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here is: IMHO (and RMS's opinion) non-free software is unethical, because it's basically a scam: making software is a service with value; making copies of software is of (marginally) zero value. So, the GPP is right on the mark.
If a company that makes (unethical) proprietary software starts making some (ethical) Free Software, it is (1) improving its act and (2) contributing to the pool of Free Software.
If a company that makes Free Software starts making proprietary software, it is (1) starting to make unethical things and (2) contributing less to the pool of Free Software.
So, that's the reason why we praise non-free-software companies that open um and we boo free-software companies that close down.
Putting it like the GPP: would you praise a country that permitted slave labour and then passwd a law freeing some of its slaves? (like mine did in 1871...) And would you protest a country without slaves that passed a law allowing for some to have slaves?
HTH.
Re:The blurb is actually pretty accurate (Score:4, Insightful)
"making copies of software" - presuming one is collecting payment for same - is extremely valuable, as it allows for the obscene cost of software to be distributed in some fair fashion among the pool of users.
This is hardly unethical.
Free software receives free marketing in a voluntary exchange. so long as there are people who value the advertising higher than the marginal value of their technical efforts - free software will persist. But then so will direct payment software. The two markets are vastly different and cannot easily be compared. but discounting either seems somewhat puerile.
AIK
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The point is not that coders shouldn't be supported as they do their thing. The point is that there should be a better mechanism put into place to pay for the creation of this valuable software
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I don't understand how you think a company can make money then. Don't get me wrong, I love free software, but, if a company is paying coders a salary to write code. When it is done and finished, if the
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One idea:
Create a pool of government funded money that goes towards software, and give everyone a vote for which projects they think are important.
Tally the votes, split the pool of money between the projects, running from the most votes to the least.
Don't give one share of the resources per vote though... determine an amount that guarantees a decent standard of living for those participants who are receiving support, and each person who gets anything gets that amount until the pool is
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Create a pool of government funded money that goes towards software, and give everyone a vote for which projects they think are important.
What if I don't think any of them are important? Do my tax dollars still have to go towards those projects? What if I want to vote, directly, with my own money? Sort of like I do now?
Tally the votes, split the pool of money between the projects, running from the most votes to the least.
What about a project like, say, Folding@Home? It's more popular now than it used to be, but it still pales in comparison to SETI@Home. Does that mean that we'd end up spending more money on finding space aliens than curing disease? Probably. Should we? Probably not, unless we can convince those space aliens to cure th
Re:The blurb is actually pretty accurate (Score:5, Interesting)
OK - I write this wonderful program, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on testing and design and create it in such a way that the vast majority of users don't need any support. That's great, that's the holy grail of programming.
And I'm supposed to run this company how?
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In this case, I hope both you and RMS start using creative commons license for your work rather than one that places severe restrictions on making copies.
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It would be unethical if RMS were to restrict others to this practice with out their consent to the terms of the license.
Re:The blurb is actually pretty accurate (Score:5, Insightful)
See here [gnu.org] and here [fsf.org].
Re:The blurb is actually pretty accurate (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're talking about games, there are several ways you can do a free software game. You release the engine as free software and then assert copyright on the artistic assets like textures, sound, music, character design, etc. You would be charging for your ideas, not for your software, if that makes sense, and users would not be able to freely distribute the artistic assets. I think that's a fine compromise between making money and being moral. In fact, if your game is any good and becomes popular, users will fix your engine's bugs, port it to new platforms, and start thriving mod communities around it, all while talking you up as the Awesome Guy who wrote the free software engine that made it all possible. It's not that different from what id has been doing, but Carmack's been keeping the engine proprietary for a few years to make money from licensing and then it gets GPL'ed. I have zero problem with that.
As far as being evil for writing non-free software? Well, yes, it is evil. There are different degrees of evil; if I don't want to buy your game because it's nonfree, then I don't have to. But if you write software that blocks DVDs from being played on machines you don't like, that's a lot more evil. And if you were to, say, extort people for money to fix bugs in your mission-critical software, that's about as evil as you can get in software. For those of us who believe it to be a moral issue, not acting morally is evil. Personally I'm more of a realist than some people I could name, and I respect the individual's right to make his own choices. I've even written proprietary software before, and I'll probably write more in the future, but doing so is always wrong to some degree, and I have to choose if it's far enough over the line that I won't participate.
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Witness the latest Fox news-style false-logic bomb being lobbed at the FOSS community. The stupidity of this argument is mind-boggling. It uses loaded terms to imply some logical (and therefore moral/ethical) disconnect in people's behaviour, then uses that to buy acceptance for the very thing we despise the most.
Why do we applaud companies who open their code? Because we lik
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not the product of their mind, not the product of their efforts.
It's the product of many peoples minds and efforts.
The administrators of the projects should be appreciative of that fact.
It is not their property. Laws can say what they want, lawyers and contracts and twisting of justice aside, it simply isn't theirs.
When open source organizations try to close access and extract money from people, they become malignant, corrupt, thieving organizations.
Declaring that it's legal for someone to do this doesn't change the fundamental nature of what's going on.
The misplaced sense of entitlement these organizations display is truly disgusting.
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Interesting)
Organizations have a lot of inerta. It takes a concerted effort to restructure.
When a closed source organization starts becoming more open, it took a lot of hard work and restructuring to make it possible.
When an open source organization starts closing things up, it takes a lot of hard work and restructuring to make that possible too.
Which means the people at the helm are working hard to start hoarding things they were given in trust for the public good.
It reveals that the organization has a poor moral character.
Re:Human Nature (Score:4, Insightful)
The purpose of running a business is to make money.
Businesses that do not intend to generate profit become nonprofit organizations.
Businesses that attempt to capitalize off any aspect of society, in any way, exist to make profit.
Companies that attempt to make money from open source software eventually exist to make money.
The moment a company accepts investments, rather than donations, it's nature changes to a for-profit model.
Companies that attempt to compete with major commercial enterprises WILL become like those commercial enterprises.
Redhat, MySQL, and other companies like them are closing much of their source because open source and significant profit are not particularly mutual, and are only pushed into appearing so by those who want to turn everything into open source.
The blame belongs to those who wish to contort open source software into what it was never meant to be, and into what it's creators never intended for it to be.
If you want to get rich, close your source and do your own work. If you want to contribute to society, open your source and ignore money.
If OSS is written well, it provides more alternatives to - and methods of - performing tasks than retail can ever hope to accomplish. However, if it is placed on a pedestal and designed to "beat" the "evil" proprietary options, it will, and so far inevitably DOES, become much like what it seeks to eliminate.
The end of an open sourced program's freedom begins when it's creators become an ever-expanding company. It shouldn't work like that, people believe it doesn't have to work like that, but somehow it always does.
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The purpose of business is to keep people busy, because if they are not busy, nothing gets done, and we have a depression, and starvation, and deprivation, and death.
The purpose of money is to keep people busy.
If everyone is happy to just keep doing useful things with their life and take what they need instead of trying to show off how many toys they have at the next guys expense, money is a liability, wasted bureaucratic effort that distract people from what
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Informative)
Redhat and MySQL are NOT closing their open source. That would in fact be illegal and unethical, because they did greatly benefit from (and in Redhat's case, built the whole product around) open source licensed with the GPL and contributed to by many OSS developers under that license.
But in fact, all they have done is start following the strict letter of the GPL, which is basically "you have to make source available when distributing binaries". Not only do they still follow that, but they still support and make freely available a community version of their project as well.
Based on your post I can't imagine you'd argue with that... I just found it a bit ironic that you propgated misperception that OSS companies are evil for "closing their source" when you seemed to be arguing against that FUD
Re:Human Nature (Score:4, Informative)
Unethical? maybe, illegal? I am not sure about MySQL, as the sole owner and proprietor of the copyrighted code, MySQL AB can provide the MySQL technologies in any license they want. I guess it is like the OpenOffice.org foundation, every piece of code you give to them, you *must* waive your rights to make them the proprietors of such code.
But in fact, all they have done is start following the strict letter of the GPL, which is basically "you have to make source available when distributing binaries". .
Maybe RedHat, but again, MySQL does not need to follow the letter of the GPL, at least for MySQL database, as they are the ones who hold the copyright... YOU must comply with the GPL if you want to modify and distribute their software.
Do you see how it works?
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Openoffice.org uses a JCA, which stands for JOINT Copyright Assignment. You do not waive your rights, you just give them rights as well, so that you can't rescind their right to use the code later. From openoffice.org:
In order to contribute code to the project, you must submit the Joint Copyright Assignment form (JCA). This form jointly assigns copyri
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a double standard. It's a rational standard: Improvement is good, regression is bad. Becoming more open is good, becoming less open is bad. Ignoring this in order to be "fair" and avoid being accused of a "double standard" is just stupid.
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Human Nature (Score:5, Insightful)
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Somewhat OT -- OK, maybe you have an opinion on this one, which has bugged me since high school. When I was in high school, some of the underachieving kids had parents who would reward them with cash money whenever report cards came out. $20 for an A, $15 for a B, and on down. I, on the other hand, was a smart kid and I was pretty much expected to be
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This is pretty much the only problem. I mean, my parents expected me to be the smart kid and I certainly didn't get paid by the "A", but maybe because I was getting better grades than they ever got they still thought it was a praise-worthy accomplishment to get my "usual" report card.
And yes, I did get cussed out major for any C that showed up. Nothing wrong with that; we all knew I could have done better.
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There is no encouragement to be bad at first unless you're praising the student for getting C-. The idea that they will undergo however many semesters of zero praise to establish a baseline of inadequacy just so that for one grading term they will be praised for a B, with no subsequent praise because they wi
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Makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)
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Maybe the BS side needs more space for a bigger number....
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=268263&cid=20
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Look at the hatred that used to be directed towards TrollTech because they only gave Qt away for free instead of Free or free Free or something. Look at the hatred that gets directed towards Miguel de Icaza for whatever it is people are enraged at him for now. I remember when the FSF finished copying pico they issued a statement about how the pico/pine people were "worse than Microsoft". People and companies who are 95% i
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As far as the pine/pico folks: they were always complete jerks, and the FSF is quite right. They like being jerks, they don't want anyone else to modify th
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How is that a double standard? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod parent up! (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies that are moving towards being more Closed are denigrated.
Where's the problem?
No, there's a small problem. (Score:2)
If anything, there's too much misguided "fairness". Decisions that bring more freedom are praised. Decisions that reduce freedom are denounced. This is good, when all other things are equal.
The only double standard is that some people are willing to give bad actors more credit than they deserve. They are deluded and servile for thinking that M$ and friends will be around forever and must be placated. The bad actors are easier to see through the lens of freedom than they are though the purely function
There's lots of them, actually (Score:2, Interesting)
As always you fall into the trap of thinking people (normal peop
Re:How is that a double standard? (Score:4, Insightful)
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spun wrote:
Even if that's right, it still wouldn't be a "double-standard".
Oh come on, the boomers practically invented idealistic so
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I don't quibble
The arrogance of your post demonstrates my point (Score:3, Insightful)
- protesting segregation and apartheid - protesting Vietnam, getting arrested, even college students with draft deferments - protesting against Nixon and Watergate Real selfish. Just look what's going on today. Oh yeah. Nothing.
That's exactly my point. The baby boomers are doing nothing today. You have been resting on your tiny little laurels for decades. It was a few members of your generation that did great things. The rest of you went to est seminars and tried to see how far up your own asses you could stick your heads.
Me! Me! Me! It's all about Me!
It even shows in your post, you try to make it seem as if baby boomers have been the only generation to protest. You discount the contributions of the current generation not because
What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are they pushing this misconception of what open source means? AFAIK, it doesn't mean "give everything away for free" it means "the source is open".
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible -- just enough to cover the cost.
Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.
The word "free" has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of "free software", we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of "free speech", not "free beer".) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes.
Free programs are sometimes distributed gratis, and sometimes for a substantial price. Often the same program is available in both ways from different places. The program is free regardless of the price, because users have freedom in using it.
Non-free programs are usually sold for a high price, but sometimes a store will give you a copy at no charge. That doesn't make it free software, though. Price or no price, the program is non-free because users don't have freedom.
Since free software is not a matter of price, a low price isn't more free, or closer to free. So if you are redistributing copies of free software, you might as well charge a substantial fee and make some money. Redistributing free software is a good and legitimate activity; if you do it, you might as well make a profit from it.
Free software is a community project, and everyone who depends on it ought to look for ways to contribute to building the community. For a distributor, the way to do this is to give a part of the profit to the Free Software Foundation or some other free software development project. By funding development, you can advance the world of free software.
It's not even a valid argument. (Score:5, Informative)
You can get it all for free, and build it yourself, or get it from someone else who does just that (still for free), such as CentOS or Scientific Linux. You could even get the source, build and test it, and do the same thing RedHat does for less money. You might be hard pressed to make a living that way, challenging the big gorilla, and you'd have the
The GPM doesn't require you to give away binaries or support.
Mod parent up please (Score:5, Insightful)
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It really does do quite a bit of damage to the potential acceptance of open source software that this idea is so common, but it's certainly not the article writer's fault tha
It's not a double standad. (Score:4, Funny)
The open source community wants to penetrate throug the business worlds, and throught the personal world. This is why the open source community has adopted a double penetration strategy.
We can only hope that the double penetration strategy is successful.
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I don't think its really a double standard... (Score:3, Insightful)
The open source community wants open source. They'll applaud when a company goes towards that goal and they'll get upset when a company moves away.
I don't think that qualifies as a double standard.
Community is not one entity (Score:2, Insightful)
Not everybody in the community will roar on the same topic, so you will always get mixed results when you summarize the comments.
Nonsensical comparison (Score:2)
If find this surprising too (Score:5, Insightful)
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Probaly because most people have no clue on how to compile it. Which again means that people that know how to compile can get the ''special'' versions too. Again fine in my book.
It's not the open source community (Score:2)
It's that simple.
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GNU protects the freedoms of the software and as RMS has said before you can sell that softwa
Because the author is retarded? (Score:2)
This is like the riddle about the three guys who pay $30 for a hotel room, but the manager meant to c
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money paid = money received.
27 = 25 + 2.
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Because Open Source is a philosophy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Many people in the Open Source community believe that open source is the natural and correct state of software -- indeed, that it is equivalent to free speech -- and that closing it is comparable to throwing political dissidents in jail. Naturally, every move toward it will be lauded, and every move against it will be demonized.
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I really, really hope that nobody has such a gross lack of proportion.
Step Into the light not away from it. (Score:2)
Its own worst enemy (Score:3, Insightful)
Like it or not, companies rely on solid sources and suppliers. A supplier that does not have a reliable revenue stream just can't be relied upon. And not every company has the resources or desire to staff up and do all its own software development in-house. Commercial, for-profit software has a serious role in business. And that means all involved in it need to make money. Giving away everything - for free - puts a big crimp on that.
When I work with some of the big boys in the consumer electronics market to qualify a new factory, they don't just audit the floor, the QA department, and the PMs. They look at the suppliers, they look at financials, they look at receivables, they look at other customers. Because if they are going to rely upon this new factory, they want to know it's got a future outside of just them. It's got to be stable.
It's REALLY HARD to make that case when your products are available for free, and you're trying to rely upon pure support as your only income stream...
Someone doesn't know what a double standard is. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing inconsistent about praising people for opening up a little bit, while condemning those that close down a little bit. We praise ANY move towards openness, and condemn ANY move away from it. How is that a double standard.
Allow me to illustrate using the oft neglected fruit analagy:
I gleefully watch my strawberry plants grow little fruit that ripen into perfect sweet strawberries, but watch me complain when my delicious strawberries start rotting and become ever less their original strawberry goodness.
Why oh why do I praise the things as they become ripe, but criticise them as they rot! I am such a hypocrit. Hmm.
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That's a double standard in the same way that praising a doctor that restores function to the upper half of a completely paralysed man and critising the bastard that goes around breaking peoples lower spines to create half paralyzed men is a double standard.
After all both are trying to give people the same level of
We did not cry out because RH charged for RHEL (Score:5, Interesting)
For example, a product my company created required 80+ hours of testing for minor version changes in critical software components. With 5 people on staff, that was an incredible expense, therefore we craved stability. Then, RHL was gone. *poof* just like that. We thought we could count on them and they changed the game on us.
I don't dislike RedHat's new business model, but I felt that after such a sudden and unexpected change in their support policy I could not trust them any longer. Later that year Ubuntu came out and I began experimenting with it (and debian). Now I have Ubuntu LTS which is supported by the vendor for 5 years, and I can call the nice guys in Montreal whenever I have a problem.
Open source is (Score:4, Insightful)
If the NVidia drivers really are so hard to maintain, then they should break in the future... if closed source software really does run slower with more bugs then I should notice it.
I'm all for open source software, and I can identify with the ideals of the FOSS movement, but I also see that there is sometimes a need for software that works well, even if it is closed source.
I would rather have a closed source project that worked perfectly than an open source product that is a work in progress.
Linux has grown by leaps and bounds and is perhaps one of the best examples of open source does right, but the political figures in the linux world, while entertaining, do nothing but hurt the product with their constant bickering and injection of personal politics into a product that should be "free".
Just keep your eye on the ball... (Score:2)
We fixate on the polarity because it makes news. Because it's interesting. Because people wh
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You may have been mislead into missing the point. To me, it is all about choice. OpenSource underscores and enables that. When a platform is OpenSource, I am given a type of control over it that I would not get if it were closed source. Others having access to the code and the right to use it will generally result in options and variants popping up to fill in all sorts of opportunities - both real and imagined. The projects roll in and out like the tide. Things evolve, die, and are reborn. If you're
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I'm still not convinced that Ubuntu couldn't deliver the closed-source driver warning in a less scathing manner.
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Not true at all, there are thousands of open source projects that have no closed source equivalent. Open source has a distinct advantage in the fact that even with a small development team there can be a lot of people giving advice and feedback. Many products, especially experimental projects would never get off the ground in the closed source world. I love open source tools and enjoy using open source when it works, but if I
What double standard? (Score:2)
When a closed company opens up a little bit, they're moving in the right direction, so they deserve praise. When an open company starts closing off their software, they're moving in the wrong direction, so they're condemned. Where's the double standard here, now?
This is clearly not the same situation (Score:2)
With RHEL it was an issue of fulling giving up a portion of the software to the OSS world and then including their own proprietary developments in the paid version (along with the benefit of every enhancement having been well tested in Fedora first).
MySQL has knowingly weakened the codebase. [slashdot.org]
Urlocker says that MySQL "wants to make sure the Community version is rock solid," but admitted that the company has introduced features into the Community edition of the software that "[weren't] as robust as we thought, and created some instabilities."
Red Hat was attacked unfairly for their actions (at least that's how it can be seen today...when it happened, th
Because (Score:3, Insightful)
What?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I think this is a positive move for them. It's a positive move for the technology community as a whole as well. When my team looks at investing in technology for our business, we usually like to have a positive feeling that the technology will still be relevant 5 years and 10 years from when we purchase it. This move will make it easier for me to deploy MySQL in the enterprise, as I can now say to my review comity - "Look, they have a revenue source. They'll be around 5 years from now, and they'll be there to honor any support contract we purchase from them". Whereas in the past, I could only argue the point that they've been there a while, they should still be there a while from now. So, positive move in my book, not just for them, but for the technology community as a whole.
The two are different (Score:2)
First, RHEL did cause a fairly big splash. A number of people were fairly vocal, and called for the downfall of RedHat. However, there is one critical difference: RedHat freely gave away everything needed to build RHEL to anybody who wanted to show up and use it. It sure sounds like MySQL is not giving away the source or binaries to anyone. They are following the letter of the GPL (which is very good!). But they are not playing in an open space. To the best of my knowledge, RHEL didn't get particular
Never as bad as it looks (Score:2)
Actually, that's a single standard (Score:2)
TWW
Eh? (Score:2)
MySQL's source is as open as before (Score:5, Interesting)
To all Slashdotters,
Your comments are appreciated and we take your input seriously. Just to make sure that all facts are correct: we have not closed the source. MySQL continues to be GPL as before.
We have only made a change in relation to binaries. Community binaries are available as before, MySQL Enterprise binaries are provided to our customers. We are highly grateful both for those who count themselves as users and those who count themselves as customers. And the binaries are produced from GPL source code so of course you are all in your full rights to modify, compile, redistribute etc. as before.
The rapid innovation rate in and around MySQL is very much a reasult of the product being licensed under the GPL. Look for instance at MySQL Cluster and MySQL Proxy which are innovations from us, or at the SPASQL modification made by Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2005/05/22-SPARQL-MySQL/XTech [w3.org]
I look forward to more of your comments and suggestions.
Marten Mickos, CEO, MySQL AB
directions? (Score:3)
On the other hand, some of the people going int he opposite direction turn around and start moving on the direction I want.
What is "double" about that?? TFA seens to be quite brain dead.
Easy (Score:3)
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This particular "shit" doesn't cost money, it costs labor. Once it is built, it no longer costs anything to "reproduce".
The whole "GNU/Linux" thing may be annoying and counterproductive at times but it is accurate.
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Aren't the people who wrote this "shit" entitled to compensation for their labor? Why should they not be able to set the price for their time, and then divide the cost across their customers?
What I'd rather hear (Score:2)