How to get a Refund on Your Unwanted Windows 409
lisah writes "Serge Wroclawski recently contacted Dell to request a refund on the unwanted copy of Windows XP that came pre-installed on his computer. Somewhat surprisingly, Dell complied. Wroclawski admits that the $52.50 refund was more of a victory in principal than anything else, but it was a success nonetheless. Using his tips and techniques readers can try their hand at getting a refund of their own. Wroclawski cautions that you should be prepared for a long haul: the process could take hours." Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.
Save some time and money (Score:5, Insightful)
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Doesn't work like that. (Score:5, Insightful)
Every option that Dell adds costs them money. Right now, every computer Dell makes has a hard drive in it with Windows installed. They're all the same. If they add an option so that you can select 'No Windows', then they need to start keeping track of which computers have windows on them and which don't.
Now, obviously, Dell already has lots of options. But you'll note most of those options lead you to spending MORE money, not less money. And how many people really go to Dell to buy a computer and DON'T want windows on it? I would guess that the number is so small that the extra business Dell might get by offering a no-windows option is not worth the cost to them of doing so. Which is a perfectly rational business decision to make.
On the other hand, if lots of people keep calling up Dell and tying up their customer service reps on the phone doing Windows refunds, they may decide that offering the option is less expensive than fielding the calls (Dell doesn't want to pay people to talk to you on the phone any more than you want to waste time talking on the phone to them). So, if enough people call, the rational business decision might change from 'Always bundle windows' to 'Offer a no-Windows option'. Which is where 'the principle mentioned' in TFA applies.
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[x] None - add 0 bucks
[] Ubuntu - add 10 bucks installation fee
[] Winblows - add 53 bucks to feed bill gates prostata fund
So really..no, it doesnt add cost to them if the default is none. It makes their deals look better - which is the reason for them having all those "options" anyway. "Loook we got servers starting at $350!!!".
A DELL Linux distro? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Doesn't work like that. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:You missed the big problem entirely. (Score:4, Interesting)
Then throw FreeDOS on the drive with an AUTOEXEC.BAT that says, "You chose to buy a computer without an operating system. If you wish to purchase an operating system, call Dell at (800) xxx.xxxx". Dell can then sell them Windows at full retail.
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I believe this stems from a court case MS lost.
Initially, MS said to vendors "if you want to sell any computers with our OS on it, you mu
Re:Doesn't work like that. (Score:4, Informative)
Every option that Dell adds costs them money. Right now, every computer Dell makes has a hard drive in it with Windows installed. They're all the same. If they add an option so that you can select 'No Windows', then they need to start keeping track of which computers have windows on them and which don't.
You mean something like this? [dell.com]
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I would have to say I saw quite a few options to spend less when I bought my
Re:Doesn't work like that. (Score:4, Informative)
This is 100% verifiably false. Currently, Dell is offering the Precision Workstation 690 with Red Hat WS v4. The base model is 59 dollars cheaper than an identical base model with Windows XPSP2. As for keeping track of which computers have Windows on them and which don't, surely this is easier than keeping track of which computers have had a Windows refund issued? (Here's an idea... just don't put the Windows OEM sticker on the computers that don't have Windows installed.)
Whenever I am pricing a Dell system, I will go in through the various choices of Home, Small Business, Large Business, etc. They run different specials under each system and don't ask for proof that you are a large or small business to let you order from those categories. Every now and then, under one category but not the others, they offer one of their lower end desktop systems (which generally aren't available installed with Red Hat) with FreeDos as an option for the OS, for a savings of about 60US$ less than with XP Home. It's pretty clear Dell sets the retail value of OEM Windows at around 60 dollars.
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Stop. Think harder. Learn. (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows version: none. Are you saying they don't track which machines went out with Windows 95 or Vista Pro?
Hrm, looking at my original post, no it does not appear I said that. I said that offering an additional option of operating system costs money that is probably not worth the increased business from having the option.
I cited having to add an item to the assembly process as an example, but it was just one example.
You mention that Dell already tracks what OS shipped on each computer. So what? The increased costs are not just in remembering what OS was on the computer when you sold it.
Increased costs also come from other areas. There's a cost in giving a user a choice they may not understand - confusion may cost you sales, and it may cost you more money on customer service inquiry. Most people know that 512 MB is better than 256 MB. Most users do not know what the difference is between Windows and Linux.
Most importantly, when you customize a Dell, there are *NO* options you can select that will result in you getting a computer you can't turn on and use. You can't select NO hard drive. You can't select NO memory. And they're not going to have an option for you to select NO OS, because then people will select it and start getting computers that don't work.
Remember also that Dell supports their own hardware. If someone gets it, and it doesn't work, Dell gets the phone call. So even if they offer Windows AND Linux, when people choose Linux, and then go to install a program that they expect to work that does not work on Linux, Dell gets that call too.
Adding an option for No OS or Linux to consumer-model desktops and laptops just does not make sense for Dell to do. The number of people who would like to use Linux who would be pleased by the option is far, far, far less than the number of customers who will end up with computers that they think, even though it's because of their own ignorance, are broken. Dell does not care whether the customer thinks they have a broken computer because the customer is ignorant. Dell only cares that the customer thinks they got a broken computer.
Another cost is support. Fielding people who can support Windows 95 and Windows XP is a whole different ball game than fielding support that can handle Windows XP and Linux.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Dell does have Linux available on some computers - specifically, high-end workstations. But all that shows is that it's profitable to offer high-end workstations with !windows while trying to offer consumer computers with !windows is not.
It isn't any more reasonable for Dell to offer 'No Windows' or 'Linux' than it is for them to offer 'No Video Card' or a video card from a non-partnered vendor. You buy the computer, you get the video cards they make available. If you don't like it, you don't get to pull it out and send it back. The only reason you get a refund on Windows is because of the license agreement.
Or, put another way, if YOU want Linux on your computer, don't buy your computer at Dell. It's not their obligation to offer Linux if they think it's more trouble for them than it's worth.
Re:Save some time and money (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft is at fault... (Score:3, Insightful)
The effect is that the Microsoft Tax becomes great enough that the hardware vendor can't compete with other vendors who get Windows for a cheaper price. Being that Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems any vendor that doesn't go along goes out of business.
Microsoft originally required that only
Re:Save some time and money (Score:5, Interesting)
The fact that everyone seems to forget/ignore is that the cost of installing Windows is not a big factor when pricing out a system.
Dell DOES offer machines without Windows. However they end up costing MORE than the version with Windows. Why is this? Because along with installing Windows XP (or Vista soon) they install a lot of crapware. RealPlayer, MusicMatch, AOL, and a host of others are being installed in that system that's built "Just for you".
And each one of those companies pay Dell every time they are included on your system. Just like you'll see computers that are $299, after mail-in rebate. That mail-in rebate is you have to sign-up for 2-years of CompuServe and they'll help pay for your computer. You can buy a computer without Windows and without all this extra crap but you're going to pay more for it because these other companies are giving a kickback.
There is a program out there called "The PC Decrapifier [yorkspace.com]". Here is a list of all the "extras" that help lower the cost of your Dell system.
So what does this all mean? To save money, buy the PC *with* Windows, then follow this guys advice to return the OS. Then send a thank you to Corel, Sonic, Roxio, Real, Google, McAfee, Symantec, and AOL for helping you buy the Linux system you really wanted in the first place.
My way? (Score:4, Insightful)
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http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.a
Re:My way? (Score:4, Funny)
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Their agreement with MS forces them. To get the really good OEM prices, they have to have an OS on every machine they sell. They have been getting around this by loading either Redhat or a version of DOS. The demand has not been very high though.
Outsource the job? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Outsource the job? (Score:5, Funny)
No, but our operators in Nigeria are standing by..
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That way, they can save money on phone bills and just shout across the room at each other.
One wonders..... (Score:2)
2. Could you do the same thing with Mac OSX (even though it is a *INX variant with a pretty shell)?
Anybody want to volunteer for either or both?
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OSX isn't just a *NIX variant with a pretty shell.
What makes OSX OSX is the platform built on top of the core: the Cocoa and Carbon APIs and the Aqua UI. The core is largely irrelevant (indeed NextStep had an both BSD and NT versions of Cocoa; Apple only chose the BSD version because they didn't want dependence on MS for their OS core). You belittle OSX to bring it down to the level of Linux. The Linux distros
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2. This would probably be an option if Apple charged Apple an OEM fee for each copy of MacOSX bundled.
Wait for Vista (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, do not expect companies to start selling OS free computers anytime soon. They make a good profit off charging for the OS (built into price)
Then they'll charge more. (Score:2)
congrats... this is VERY rare (Score:4, Insightful)
Makes One Wonder... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Makes One Wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)
Volume discounts are a very good answer. First of all, if your partner (in this case, Dell), can guarentee you a certain number of sales, and your marginal cost for each OEM unit is nearly $0, it's definately in your favor to give them a discount.
Second, supply and demand. $52 may be all Dell is willing to pay to put Windows on their systems. Whereas for somebody going out and buying a boxed copy, they are apparently willing to pay more.
Third, support costs. If Dell is selling the software, and willing to be the first line of support, that means that they are willing to take on support costs and therefore lower Microsofts.
Fourth, distribution costs. Shipping thousands of OEM copies to one customer (Dell) is much cheaper than shipping thousands of retail boxed copies to multiple customers (retailers). Also, since you don't have to print up a box and packaging, creating those OEM copies is much cheaper.
Preferential pricing occurs in virtually any market and for the same reasons it occurs in the OS market. Just because it's Windows doesn't mean it's any different than selling other items.
-dave
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Second, supply and demand. $52 may be all Dell is willing to pay to put Windows on their systems. Whereas for somebody going out and buying a boxed copy, they are apparently willing to pay more.
You got that one wrong. And it's wrong because MS is a monopoly.
:P .
If Dell doesn't want to pay more than $52 and MS doesn't want to sell it for less than $53, what happens ?
The price is studied to maximize profit. If the price was higher, the final price of the whole computer would be higher, less would be sold, and both Dell and MS would get less profit. Well, see price point [wikipedia.org] if needed, Wikipedia has more fluent English than me
You also forgot (Score:3, Insightful)
FYI MS
Re:Makes One Wonder... (Score:5, Funny)
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Because by buying a very large block of product from MS the OEM alleviates the need for MS to send out sales reps, build POS materials, advertise, additional packaging, etc etc etc. These costs are substantial and by passing on the savings to the same people who help MS get around the bad noise of single user marketing they ensure a favorable marketshare while not having to sacrifice profit margins to overhead
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But pricing is always a complicated thing. The question is never, "Why can't they...?" but "W
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Discussed Before (Score:4, Informative)
Good Advice, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
...Most people who don't run Windows on an x86 PC build their own.
...I got just as much satisfaction by tearing the Windows license off my laptop (there's a spot on the laptop chassis marked COA, like it can't work without it) and removing the little sticker that says "Designed for Windows XP"
Unfortunately, it's just not worth the time when you're really just stroking your ego.
mandelbr0tRe: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd agree about desktops, but it's hard to build your own notebook.
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What's for sale ? (Score:2, Insightful)
If you want an Intel-processor-powered computer without Windows, you can buy them from IBM, HP, Sun, etc; they are Server-type computers. Usually they are noisier becuase they have machine-room-type fans.
Yeah,
Doing this HURTS more than it helps. (Score:5, Interesting)
"Anyone can return Windows for a refund. (Naturally we take just a few simple, reasonable precautions to ensure that people don't abuse the process.) Of umpteen godzillion copies of Windows bundled with Dell PCs last year, Dell's records show that the total number returned for a refund is... twenty-two[or whatever the number is].
This proves what we've been saying all along. Virtually everyone loves Windows, nobody really minds paying for it. Of the reported 5% [or whatever it is] of Dell customers using Linux, obviously the vast, vast majority of them also enjoying the copy of WIndows that came with their PC and think it is worth far, far more than $52.50.
It also shows, as we've been saying all along, that there's absolutely no need to make available PCs that are not preloaded with Windows. Anyone that doesn't want it can return it, as is proved by the twenty-two who did. Clearly it's not worth the effort of generating an extra SKU just to serve twenty-two eccentrics."
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Dell has always seemed ambivalent about Linux. I recently bought a E521 desktop. I set it up dual-boot (hence I will NOT apply for a refund) with XP and Ubuntu. Ubuntu installed fine, but then the mouse curso
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They fixed it? That's actually much more than I would have expected from them.
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The argument that anyone could return Windows has
I believe that perhaps 1-2% of laptops being sold are running some other operating system than Microsoft Windows (not including those from Apple or Sun). Most people, even now, don't know they can get a Windows r
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Also, I fail to see how it could do more harm than good. Let's say they're not offering a no-OS option on a laptop. There are three basic scenarios: nobody requests a Windows refund (your proposal), a small number (I'll use 22) of people request it (this seems to be your fear), or a lot of people request it.
$52? (Score:4, Interesting)
Try $20 or $25...they paid you $52.50 because it was worth $52.50 to make you leave them alone. Whether you agree with bundling deals or not, making Dell have to deal with you on the phone for several hours and making them pay you money because you don't agree with how they sell their product is a really jerkish thing to do.
Re:$52? (Score:5, Insightful)
From the Windows XP Home EULA:
If he did not, in fact, agree to be bound by the terms of the EULA, he had every right to ask for a refund.
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The sad thing is... (Score:5, Informative)
I really tried to find a notebook with Linux pre-instaled, or at least without Windows. And to my surprise, the cheaper ones are those shipping with Windows!
Mind you that I live at Brazil, and import taxes and such may distort the prices a little... But the shocking truth is, at least here, if you want a notebook without Windows, you have to pay MORE for it.
Not enough (Score:2)
Buy Windows multiple times for one machine (Score:2, Interesting)
VMWare. So you have to buy another generic XP Pro OEM copy, for perhaps USD 139.
In a business, re-imaging a mixture a Dell/Non-Dell machines requires a non-Dell OEM version of XP (generic XP OEM works on Dells, but Dell XP only works o
$52.50 (Score:4, Funny)
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Wait...xp only costs $52? (Score:2, Informative)
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"Do not accept" not necessarily an option! (Score:5, Interesting)
If you accepted that at face value, that would mean that hitting the off "key" would accept the license. Removing the battery and power cord allows you to switch off without hitting a key I suppose, but how are you supposed to use it if you can never press the keys again?
Ok, that's obviously an excessively paranoid interpretation and I doubt a court would hold that to be a reasonable interpretation even in the unlikely event that Dell were foolish enough to press the point, but it does demonstrate a very dubious use of an EULA.
In practice I expect Dell will pony up the money. We'll see.
Check out HP (Score:5, Informative)
For example...
HP site: HP Compaq 2000 series (two models):
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Pro $637
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Home $557
dx2200 microtower base model, "Alternate OS" $487
Wow! $150 difference from XP Pro and $70 from XP Home! That is the *FIRST TIME* I have *EVER* seen a true, correct, and reasonable difference in the price. Could HP be doing something neat? I actually checked EVERY LINE of the quote to make sure that wasn't a mistake.
So... in this case, you really can avoid an almost 24% tax!
Certainly that is the only model. NO- they offer "configure Linux PC" on the entire 5000 line (4 more models) and get this- the difference is *$167* this time. And $160 on the entire 7000 line (three more models). In fact, every single small, medium, and large business line and even workstation line is available with "Alternate OS" (even business laptops!). You only lack the choice with their "Home" computers. Good going, HP!
I am not saying that MS-Windows isn't *worth* the $160 to some people. But it is worth $0 to people that want to install something other than MS-Windows or already own an MS-Windows individual or site license.
Now we need HP to do this with their home line too, and hopefully the other vendors will follow.
Dell Makes Money On Windows (Score:3, Insightful)
I want 50% of drive to be unformatted (Score:3, Interesting)
Then it is easier to install Linux for dual boot. Dell spends very little on OEM Windows licenses so the cost to me of having Windows is very small. However, getting a PC with half the disk unused makes life simpler.
Re:Spend hours to get $52.50 (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Spend hours to get $52.50 (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Spend hours to get $52.50 (Score:5, Insightful)
it's about principle. if enough of us demand the 52 bucks, thats a good deal of money for Dell and Microsoft to eat. This will lead the future offering of machines without an OS preloaded.
If you wonder why things in the world are taking a down turn, it's because very few people are willing to do things just on principle. As one person, yea, 52 bucks is less than a drop in the bucket (Especially from the corporation's side of it) But if we work together, we can begin to change things towards our liking.
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You're right. But lets just hope that the numbers of us that don't will grow in the future.
No, they don't want Windows. (Score:5, Insightful)
By forcing all the vendors to offer only computers with Windows preinstalled, Microshaft has guaranteed victory over the majority of computer buyers who just don't know any better. (Including corporations.)
Re:No, they don't want Windows. (Score:4, Interesting)
That's just nonsense. It doesn't matter what OS comes preinstalled on the hardware, a corporation isn't going to use it, no matter what. Even if it costs them $500 more for a single license, they'll do it, rather than have one system that may be trivially different than all the rest.
Go to any reasonably large business, and they'll have a site license from Microsoft for sure, even though every single system they buy already comes preloaded with something.
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Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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Funny you should mention that. We just did this very thing. Got some other upgrade in exchange for the extra sink (several hundred dollars, in case you're wondering). Why WOULDN'T you negotiate on things like that when someone builds it to your specification?
I also haven't seen a car built in the past 5 years that comes with a cigarette lighter, or ashtray for that matter. These days, they're extras
Re:Spend hours to get $52.50 (Score:4, Insightful)
Anything that shows companies like Dell that people want something other than Windows is a step in the right direction. Maybe after refunding that $52.50 enough times, they'll start to rethink pre-installing Windows without giving people a choice.
What did this cost dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies may have very low operating expenses when everything goes to plan, but i would be surprised if it cost dell a decent multiple of 52.50 to actually process the issue.
If they start to notice it happening more often then the obvious thing to do is to build it in to the process and let people order machines without windows.
Getting the largest computer manufacturer to conceed that Windows isn't the only way would be a big win for everyone.
Re:What did this cost dell? (Score:5, Insightful)
What happens if everyone who isn't planning on running Windows goes through this process?
It ends up costing Dell money. What's more, the time it takes to go through the process lowers their customer service quality, as others looking for customer service are left on hold longer and longer.
Notice that it costs them money whether they give the refund or not. In fact, it will lead to higher costs if they deny the refund.
Dell's not stupid. They want to make money, and the only way to do that is by pleasing as many customers as possible. They'd sell PC's without an OS gladly if they could do so and get the per-seat license deal from Microsoft they have now; otherwise, the cost in lost customers doesn't justify it. But there's nothing in their contract about offering a refund.
So Dell's only move, then, is to streamline the process of providing a Windows refund.
But in order for that to happen, enough of us have to go after our $52 in principle that it's worth Dell's time to streamline the process for the rest.
And if that happens, of course, more people will ask for refunds. Dell will fight tooth and nail not to alter the terms of the deal with Microsoft to prevent refunds, because if Dell has to deny the refunds, that means that this much-larger mass of requests will generate a tremendous mass of customer service expenses.
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Forced to Spend Hours is Bad Business. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not your fault Dell does not make things easy, but you can help them see the light. Together, we can make this abuse a money loser.
The reason this makes sense is because it forces Dell to go through the wasteful process they have in place. Done enough times, the process will change. No one can afford to tie up their phones and support staff over a $50.00 refund they will have to give you if they don't want to break the law.
There are a lot of people who use free software exclusively and the po
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Can I get a refund on that?
Did it come with an End User Licence Agreement which stated that if you did not agree to the licence you could return it for a refund? If so, then yes - you can return the drive for a refund. If no, then probably not.
Re:Dumbass (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Dumbass (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like he's up 52 bucks compared to you at the end of a few hours. Now who's the dumbass with the stupid hobby?
And it's not just the $52. He's gained knowlege, published it for the benefit of others, and for all we know could have been enjoying a cocktail himself in the process. It's his time, he can spend it as he pleases whether you or I approve or not.
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The guy who could have made more more money flipping burgers for minimum wage at McD's?
What he has is a token refund check and five minutes fame from a post to Slashdot. Dell meanwhile will go on its merry way selling millions of laptops with the default OEM Windows install
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Re:Does this really matter? (Score:4, Insightful)