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The Almighty Buck Microsoft Linux Business

Dutch Gov't Doubles Back On Open-Source Goals 348

Posted by timothy from the oversight-overseeing dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Despite a 2002 unanimous vote by the Dutch parliament to prefer open standards and open source, exclusive negotiations with Microsoft were started. MPs have started asking questions already, but will add some more now that a Dutch journalist discovered that the deal will cripple the open source ambitions. The deal not only covers desktop software, but lets Microsoft deliver server software and support as well. MPs are outraged, and the EU may investigate why no mandatory public bid was started. In an open letter to the government, public organizations and open source companies like Novell raise hell. How can you ever fight bureaucrats?"
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Dutch Gov't Doubles Back On Open-Source Goals More

Dutch Gov't Doubles Back On Open-Source Goals

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  • not so bad news (Score:2, Informative)

    by mirko ( 198274 )
    MPs are outraged, and the EU may investigate why no mandatory public bid was started.

    nothing has been paid yet and an enquiry will be done, so let's avoid being indignated and be constructive against such practices...

    • Re:not so bad news (Score:2, Insightful)

      by adhocboy ( 839597 )
      yes, I am sure that the microsoft contract negotiations are just a ploy to get a better price on the open source software. :) This is clearly an indication of how deeply infected the Dutch IT scene is. Really, it's funny. The original open source decision was to prevent companies like MS from being able to gain subtle control of the IT decisions... but now it looks like the MPs were a couple of years too late. :) I say, give microsoft its Dane's Geld and move on. Don't tick them off, or they'll raise

    • Re:not so bad news (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 12, 2004 @10:19AM (#11065982)
      let's avoid being indignated and be constructive against such practices.

      The reason people are indignant is that they've seen it before and there is nothing the common man can do to fight it. In the USA, despite all the outrage online RIAA and MPAA still get whatever bills and lawsuits they need into action; there was a huge grassroots effort to stop, then overturn the DMCA and it still exists; people have been "raising hell" about the PATRIOT Act for years now to no avail; and when citizens have voted locally in states to pass such things as medical marijuana, stem cell research and gay marriage laws, they have only prompted attack by the Feds.

      This is what happens when you sign your power over to others for collective use; they use it to further their own ends and the ends of their friends, inevitably. This is the reason for the concept of inalienable rights outlined in several historical documents including the Magna Carta and the US Declaration of Independence.

      • Re:not so bad news (Score:4, Insightful)

        by EzInKy ( 115248 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @05:51PM (#11068187)
        The reason people are indignant is that they've seen it before and there is nothing the common man can do to fight it. In the USA, despite all the outrage online RIAA and MPAA still get whatever bills and lawsuits they need into action; there was a huge grassroots effort to stop, then overturn the DMCA and it still exists;

        Where'd did you ever get that the idea there was a "huge" grassroots movement? Nobody has been canvassing my neighborhood to sign petitions nor have I seen any million person anti-DMCA marches on Washington. Sure it's a common topic on some internet sites but it's rarely mentioned in the mainstream media.

  • How can you ever fight bureaucrats? (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I was going to say 'steal their brains' but that won't work either.

  • dammed balkenende (Score:4, Informative)

    by dogfull ( 819023 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:19AM (#11065581)
    never keeps his promises....

    anyhow, nothing has been done yet, so let's not be too quick on judgements...

    though I wonder why they did this.... licking heels of american companies hasn't helped us the last time (Joint Strike Fighter, anyone?)

    And, yes, I'm from holland :)

  • We know what this means (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Graabein ( 96715 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:21AM (#11065586) Journal
    I guess we know what this means, that for some people at least all the talk about using open source and open standards was just a play to squeeze Microsoft.

    • Re:We know what this means (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Yea... in an alternate universe where Microsoft is not a convicted monopolist and isn't the most evil company on the planet..

      I guess then it can be true..

      More likely, some sort of bribery has taken place.
    • Sure. But I don't mind. Using the existence of a competitor is still actual competition. If the Dutch gain significant concessions from Microsoft, then I'm happy. Half the problem in the supply of the software world is Microsoft's overriding presence. If we can knock their prices down on discounting, the Microsoft Monolith will become less of a problem for the world.

      On that note, I can't wait for the Chinese Microsoft to become visible. The press is pretending no such thing exists, but it's out the

    • I'd wonder if the whole negotiation was over price; the UK Register article seems to focus on price. If the discussions mainly centered on costs, using the philosophy of the open source movement (which focuses on practical goals for programs in their bid to speak to business) is sure to lose because serious proprietors including Microsoft are ready to lower their price to free to keep a competitor away ("lose no sale to Linux[sic]" is what I recall reading in a NYT article which quoted an internal Microsof

      • Re:Price is not everything. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Simonetta ( 207550 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @02:58PM (#11067322)
        The government (anybody's government) is a huge bureaucratic organization that is comprised of people who primarily want stability. They want nothing to threaten their position, pension, and job security.
        Given a choice of spending other people's money (your's, the taxpayer) or going with a group that has no formal organization that can take legal responsibility when systems break down, the bureaucrats will always chose buying the service from another large organization. That way they are protected. The fact that Linux Open Source is a better situation for the taxpayers and government information systems is secondary.
        There are three ways to deal with this situation:
        Pass laws requiring the use of open-source. This won't work because bureaucrats will always twist the law to fit their needs, which in this case is to 'cover their ass' when (not if) the information system breaks down.
        Make Microsoft unaffordable Stop paying taxes in a big way so that the government doesn't have the money available to afford the Microsoft solution. This won't work because the government can use any amount violence to take your money from you, and because Microsoft can lower the initial offering price to almost nothing to secure the contract. This will work in developing countries, eventually, but not in the EU or USA.
        Have open source so widely used that Microsoft can't link into the established framework This won't work because Microsoft will always allow free limited distribution of its product (by technically permitting unpaid copies to be made of Windows and Office) enough to keep itself being the defacto standard in use.

        The only way that the open source community can win against Microsoft in government procurement contracts is to be so transparently better that the government buyers will be willing to overlook its stark disadvantages (to the bureaucrats) in order to have a greatly superior product.
        This can't happen because great software is mostly the result of great individual programmers.
        Microsoft has the funds to buy their work, talents, and focus for its exclusive use in Windows. The only way that Microsoft can fail here is if they refuse to pay their most highly productive 'superstar' programmers enough, or refuse to make the necessary effort to recruit them in the first place. Given that MS is run by super programmers (even if he is retired from actual coding) like Bill Gates, this too is unlikely.
        The only way to beat Microsoft is convince them to hire mediocre executive leadership. This is the only way to beat any large powerful organization.

        • Re:Price is not everything. (Score:5, Informative)

          by jbn-o ( 555068 ) <mail@digitalcitizen.info> on Sunday December 12, 2004 @05:53PM (#11068192) Homepage

          The government (anybody's government) is a huge bureaucratic organization that is comprised of people who primarily want stability.

          Peruvian Congressman Villanueva wrote a scathing letter to a Microsoft representative [theregister.co.uk] who tried to railroad him into an argument centered on price and how practical it would be to let Microsoft fulfill all of one's technical needs (Villanueva did not take the bait and debunked every one of the MS rep's arguments, noting in part that "it is not enough that it [the software] is technically capable of fulfilling a task"). Villanueva demanded the freedoms of free software (he was particular about which movement he sides with) and free formats for goverment use. His bill did not require free software to be used in Peruvian government work nor does it require Microsoft to change its executives.

          The free software movement makes no demands who is or becomes Microsoft's executives, yet Microsoft is nervous. Microsoft has toured the country proclaiming the GNU General Public License to be like a cancer and destructive to one's "intellectual property". They are losing seats (hence their willingness to give away Microsoft Windows in some cases) and Microsoft is losing the web server market to Apache, Firefox is eating into their web browser dominance, and most importantly Microsoft provides no software freedom for their most popular programs. Even if we look at this issue in the narrow terms of market popularity, if their market lead were only vulnerable by those who somehow "convince them to hire mediocre executive leadership" they would not need to expend any effort denouncing copylefted free software.

  • Maybe not as bad as it seems (Score:4, Informative)

    by hak hak ( 640274 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:24AM (#11065602)
    The article contains a link to a letter (in Dutch) to all Dutch municipalities. It is an invitation to join the negotiations between the Ministry of Justice and Microsoft. The deal appears to concern at least 250,000 Windows desktops. However, the first paragraph of the letter clearly states the following (translation and emphasis mine):

    To prevent misunderstandings: this is about the continuation of agreements to which many users feel compelled to on the short term; this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.

    • Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems (Score:5, Insightful)

      by 1u3hr ( 530656 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:35AM (#11065645)
      To prevent misunderstandings: this is about the continuation of agreements to which many users feel compelled to on the short term; this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.

      It's meaningless; "mid and long term" just gives them an excuse to ALWAYS say that it'll be considered for the "next" contract. And gives them a club to beat MS with to get bigger discounts.

    • translation and emphasis mine

      I hope your translation is better than the Babel Fish [altavista.com] one.
      • Undersigned organisations make themselves look concerning this intention and want you indicate on the negative impact which such a contract has on the software market and the innovation climate in the Netherlands. Also such a contract in fight with by the cabinet has been determined policy with respect to open standards and open source at the government and striving the government less dependent use some a softwar

    • Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems (Score:5, Funny)

      by mollymoo ( 202721 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @09:51AM (#11065865) Journal
      this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention

      The Netherlands' mum:
      But you promised you would move to open standards years ago!

      The Netherlands:
      I'll do it tomorrow.

      The Netherlands' mum:
      That's what you always say and it never gets done, does it? Have you tidied your room like I asked you to?

      The Netherlands:
      I'll do it tomorrow. God I hate you. I didn't ask to be born!

      • Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems (Score:4, Funny)

        by krumms ( 613921 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @03:59PM (#11067636) Journal
        The Netherlands' mum:
        But you promised you would move to open standards years ago!

        The Netherlands:
        I'll do it tomorrow.

        The Netherlands' mum:
        That's what you always say and it never gets done, does it? Have you tidied your room like I asked you to?

        The Netherlands:
        I'll do it tomorrow. God I hate you. I didn't ask to be born!

        Vile woman! You've impeded my progress from the day I escaped from your wretched womb!

    • Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems (Score:4, Insightful)

      by proton ( 56759 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @09:55AM (#11065881) Homepage
      Or in politiceeze:

      "this does not change the fact that on mid [english: after I retire] and long term [english: after Im dead and buried], the alternative of open source software receives all attention [english: attention by someone else, maybe]."

      /pro

    • Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.

      No, of course not!

      When "mid" and "long" term finally arrive the Dutch government will find their data 'safely' tucked away in WinFS with no means of export. Having had their data locked down by Microsoft they will then discover that the 'price cuts' they thought they were so clever in negotiating will evaporate 10X over when Bill sends them the next bill.

      They will also find that the

    • Yeah right, from somebody who lives there (Score:5, Informative)

      by SmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @01:48PM (#11066981) Journal
      The last dutch goverment left a real feeling of frustration on the voter. It left the country open to the rise of Pim Fortuyn who for better or worse was at least promising to shake up the system. Sadly he was murdered and the entire country voted for a party with an inexperienced leader because he was the safest most boring choice.

      Since then "Balkenende" has shown a complete lack of leadership skill. His party has tried to force through cuts in pension plans despire massive opposotiion from the unions, industry AND the goverments economic think tank. Massive demonstations have no effect EVEN a gigantic drop in the polls has no effect. Even in cases where both industry AND unions together without threath of strikes agree to compensate the cuts for the workers involved the goverment wants to outlaw this.

      This is part of a much larger problem in europe. You see for all the talk about america and its two party system and the Bushes and Haliburtons there is one thing to remember. People are talking about the problems in america. Michael Moore does make his documenturies. There is no such thing in holland or for that matter the EU.

      Whenever you hear about corruption/incompetence/complacency in america the exact same thing is happening in europe. Withone tiny little difference. Nobody is talking about it.

      Basically what you got is corrupt system, not the kind of corruption you see in the movies with brown envolopes but a far deeper backroom deals going unquestioned for ever corruption of the mind. Most of the people involved wouldn't even be able to consider taking "hospitality" from MS as being corrupted. They live in their own world wich has been carefully drained of everyone who questions things.

      If you want to see the idea. Examine "group think" on places like /.

      • In a democracy.... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by jotaeleemeese ( 303437 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @04:29PM (#11067776) Homepage Journal
        ... the elctorate get the govemrnet they deserve.

        In the Netherlands they decided that a populist, unexperienced "party" was a good choice while many sane people in th rest of Europe were rolling their eyes in disbelief.

        Well, now you have the consequences.

        Goverments had never governed (and they should not, IMHO) based on demonstrations or opinion polls. Goverments are suppossed to have a plan and they should try to implement it.

        How from a clueless goverment elected by, pardon the battering, clueless people, you jump to your tirade about corruption, is baffling.

        To say that corruption is swept under the carpet in Europe is ludicrous. Berlusconi in Italy just was half aquited on corruption charges, a close ally was sentenced to 9 years for mafia links. In Germany people close to Helmut Khol were sentenced for all kind of muddy dealings, in the UK politicians that fail to live to expections regularly have to resing and in some cases even go to jail.

        Your ascertion is completely untrue and clueless, corruption is fought all around Europe.

        Compare that with Ronald Reagan and his mob, breaking the law, and living to be hailed as heroes for doing so.
    • this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.

      Just a pity rumour has this contract (extension) is for 5 years...

      So 5 years must be short term??

      Thankfully our (Dutch) politicians are a little more Microsoft Resistant than the bureaucrats.

      Still, the community will have to fight to prevent further lock down.

  • About (Score:3, Interesting)

    by northcat ( 827059 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:26AM (#11065607) Journal
    Don't know about there, but here the bureaucrats (did I get the spelling right?) have an upper hand over politicians. Politicians are there in the office just for few years - bureaucrats are there for decades. And bureaucrats have more technical knowledge than politicians (at least here).

    • Re:About (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jakosa ( 667951 )

      Where is there and here? I guess what you are talking about is typical for all modern democracies, but still..

      When I have discussed open source with Danish officials, they are always very conservative. They would choose to go for a more expensive, but known solution any day. If the known solution is on a discount they would not think about it for a minute. Civil servants are not like politicians at all. They aren't supposed to take any decisions (ideally), but to make everything work on a day to day basis

  • I never understood this.

    Does "Dutch" refer to Holland-related stuff, Netherlands-related stuff, or both?
    • Both.

      Because they are the same thing...
      • Nope, sorry.

        Holland is just a small part of The Netherlands. It is also a popular but incorrect name for the whole country called The Netherlands.

        It's in the same league, but not quite the same, as calling the UK "England" or -oppositely- calling the US "America".
        • It's in the same league, but not quite the same, as calling the UK "England" or -oppositely- calling the US "America"

          Calling the UK "England" is quite similar, except many people who say it think that England really is all there is to the UK. This is different from "America" for the USA because "America" is just short for "United States of America" and few people think that the US comprises all of either North America or the Americas. Also note that while there is a place called "England" which is differ

          • Actually its correct to say Canada is in America. Ditto mexico. For that matter its correct to say Brazil. Is in America.

            Main Entry: America Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k& Usage: geographical name 1 either continent (N. America or S. America) of the western hemisphere 2 or the Americas /-k&z/ the lands of the western hemisphere including N., Central, & S. America & the W. Indies 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
      • Not quite true.
        Dutch refers to The Netherlands and their language. Deutsche refers to Germany and it's language. They are different words, and any crossing over is a mistake.
      • No, people often use "Holland" when they actually mean "the Netherlands". Holland is only the western part of the Netherlands, nowadays split it up in two provinces: South-Holland and North-Holland. The Netherlands has 10 other provinces however.

        See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland [wikipedia.org] for more information about Holland and compare it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands [wikipedia.org]. The word "Dutch" refers to Netherlands-related stuff.

    • Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? (Score:5, Informative)

      by laurens ( 151193 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:35AM (#11065640)
      Dutch = relating to The Netherlands (country) or it main language.
      "Holland" is just a small part of The Netherlands (2 provinces: South Holland and North Holland combined).

      If you refer to the coutry, its people, or its language, the correct terms are "The Netherlands (Nederland)", "The Dutch (Nederlanders)", and "Dutch (Nederlands)".

      • Additionally, remember dat Dutch is not only spoken in The Netherlands, but also in Belgium (the country beneath The Netherlands). So Dutch speaking people means more than only the people from The Netherlands.

        • Dutch is also spoken in Suriname and The Netherlands Antilles.
          The South African language is also related to Dutch. In Belgium, there are two main languages, French and Dutch.

    • Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? (Score:4, Informative)

      by RAMMS+EIN ( 578166 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:59AM (#11065727) Homepage Journal
      Ok, just to clear up some of the confusion people have stirred up:

      "Dutch" means of the Netherlands, AKA Holland.

      Technically, Holland is just a part of the Netherlands. However, I do not believe refering to the country as "Holland" is incorrect any more than refering to the USA as "America" is incorrect. It's common usage.

      Groeten aan alle nederlandse slasdotters!
      • Groeten aan alle nederlandse slasdotters!

        Wow, CmdrTaco writes Dutch as well these days?
      • However, I do not believe refering to the country as "Holland" is incorrect any more than refering to the USA as "America" is incorrect. It's common usage.
        On quite a different scale however...

        About country names: the Dutch call Germany "Duitsland", the Germans themselves call it "Deutschland". "Dutch" meaning "from Holland" is therefor quite remarkable. We Dutch call ourselves "Nederlanders" or "Hollanders" and our neigbours are named "Duitsers". When we Dutch people talk about Germans ("Germanen") we
    • It's easy:

      Dutch = legal prostitution
      Holland = girls in clogs
      Netherlands = legal Mary-Jane
      Amsterdam = (Dutch | Holland | Netherlands)

      Furthermore Amsterdam is to be found in Copenhagen.

      This is pretty much what a Californian girl insisted was the truth, even after seeing my NetherDutch passport.

      Little did I know.
    • Actually, Holland has occupied the Netherlands, and those pesky Dutch are simply trying to profit from this.

      Fryslân boppe!

      </tongue in cheek>

      • For the rest of the world (Score:5, Funny)

        by SmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @01:32PM (#11066907) Journal
        That is somebody from the province of friesland. To translate to an american, think inbred right-wing religious freak hillbilly from the deepest south. Very little is known about friesland wich has its own langauge wich isn't related to any known language. (goverment tv transmits some programs in fries. It is rather telling that they always seem to be about farming and have at least one interviewy with his/her arms up a cow) If your a foreign visitor and you find yourselve stuck on the "afsluitdijk" heading east from Amsterdam STOP AND TURN BACK. On no account head on. They eat people there.

        Sometimes some of the fries make it west accross the "afsluitdijk" and cause havoc in Amsterdam before they are beaten up by the locals. If you ever see a fight in Amsterdam it is always a farmer from friesland or it close relative groningen.

        Every country got parts it ain't proud off. Americans got the bible belt. The united kingdom got wales. Germany got all off germany and The Netherlands got friesland. We are still trying to convince them to start a war of independence.

  • Bribing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Sunday December 12, 2004 @08:31AM (#11065631)
    As of now I have no doubt whatsoever that Microsoft is excessively bribing the deciders in the european political open source and software patent discussion. Simple and flat out. Deciders that don't have the haziest of concepts of what software and open source is about get invited to sessions with "software-experts" on 100 percent MS payroll, taking all their crap for granted. And most certainly later on cut a deal on consulting or for holding a keynote or something other.
    The irish EU presidency saw the up to then most extreme case, with the president taking a 180 turn of the decision the EU-parlament had issued not longer than a half a year earlyer on software patents.
    We are about to see more of this.
    I very much welcome the EU officials looking into this and (hopefully) preparing appropriate measures of dealing with flat-out violations of law like this one.

    • Re:Bribing (Score:4, Interesting)

      by nwbvt ( 768631 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @09:30AM (#11065800)
      So any time anyone chooses a MS product over an opern source product, it must be because of bribery and not because of some legit reason (like lack of training)?
      • No, but you should at least hear or read such arguments by those responsible for software decisions. But that'd be embarassing for these politicians, because it would show that they are not as "computer savvy" as they like to be. (Not that running linux is any sign of being competent :)

        Instead, you hear "microsoft is a big company, it creeates many jobs", "microsoft is modern", etc.pp.

        Very close to the arguments brought up by MS marketing droids.

        Here in germany, mr. Stoiber, premier in bavaria, talked ab

    • Not bribe, political strategy. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Jakosa ( 667951 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @10:53AM (#11066119)

      The political system is, in its way of making decisions, very far from the way you makes decisions in IT departments, small and big (there is of course a certain political influence even here). But for politicians it is not about having the most efficient system. It doesn't matter if it is expensive as long as you have control and can avoid scandals. MS offers exactly the kind of control that politicians like. With MS they talk to people in suits that can be manipulated economically. This is preferable to Idealist.

      The good thing is that their fear of scandal can be used and that is what have happened, recently. The politicians worst nightmare is to look like a crafty bureaucrat and therefore they actually respond to the public pointing out the inconsistency of their arguments. We will see lots of this kind of things in the near future and that is a good thing. This whole slashdot story is about somebody trying to sneak MS in the backdoor. Five years ago nobody would have noticed.

  • Is the most corrupt one in many many years...

    I hope that both the related ministers and MS executives get a big bucked of shit over themselfs.
    After that a long jail sentence...
    • [Our current government] Is the most corrupt one in many many years...

      I hope that both the related ministers and MS executives get a big bucked of shit over themselfs.

      Why hope? Let's go and do something about it.

      In my oppinion, the Dutch public was about to empeach our current ministers, too many people were/are upset over the issues of early retirement, healthcare etc. We are represented by a government for which we did not vote (the majority voted for a CDA/PVDA coalition, we got a CDA/VVD/D66 coal

  • translation (Score:3, Informative)

    by dogfull ( 819023 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @09:01AM (#11065731)

    English is almost as much of an PITA as dutch...

    anyhoo, dutch refers to the old word that was used for the dutch language, 'duits'. Which is in effect now used for the german language...

    To the point: I've created an translation of BOF's open letter. Its not perfect, so please send corrections to bartwiegmans@gmail.com

    It's located at home.kabelfoon.nl/~bwiegm/index.html [kabelfoon.nl]

  • that its not what you know but who you know.

  • Which Would You Rather Have? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by RAMMS+EIN ( 578166 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @09:04AM (#11065740) Homepage Journal
    Ok, so which would you rather have?

    They stay with MS for the time being, spend some extra money, and keep applying those patches?

    Or they switch all everything over right now, and everything comes crashing down because the sysadmins are not competent with the new software?

    I think a gradual switch is definitely preferable. This seems to be exactly what is happening (the text clearly states that OSS remains the goal for the long term).
    • Yup, inless they make a deal like those british folks over the water, right in their neighborhood.

    • I've worked at the Netherlands Ministry of Housing, Spatial planning and the Environment (VROM in Dutch) about 4 or 5 years ago as an IT specialist. It's not only about the sysadmins. When I started working there, they were cutting the number of applications. As far as I remember, they were trying to cut from about 1500 different applications to about 600 to 700. Most of them were Windows applications. My grilfriend worked at a Dutch city hall. She had to support between 45 to 60 different Windows applica
    • The U.S. has many thousands of unemployed or underemployed Linux admins who I'm sure would love to go to Europe for a few months to help ease the transition to open source. Where do I sign up?
    • Third option: direct half of the money that goes to Microsoft into the development of replacement software. One package at a time. That way you can see that the intentions are honest and not a cheap ploy to ignore parliament.
    • "Ok, so which would you rather have?"

      Personally, I'd rather have a ridiculous false dichotomy which demonstrates no knowledge of the article blurb, much less the linked articles, not moderated to +5 on Slashdot for once, but have been here long enough to expect it. They passed the resolution in 2002.

    • I guess they should wait until all of their MCSEs spontaneously develop Linux skills, huh?

      Switching to Linux on some desktops doesn't mean that you have no options whatsoever to run Windows-only apps.

      Also, there are these things called "vendors", who support open source software with trained staff, training, books, patches, etc.

  • ... competition in the market place?

    Is anyone keep a record of how many laws MS breaks and how many anti-trust lawsuits they lost?

    I believe that is what the real issue is all about, whether or not MS is up to no good... again. And it does put politicians and buracrats under suspect ... again...

    At some point the score has to become overwelming enough for the open source efforts to simply be enable to ignore those who have proven themselves dishonest in the market place.

    I suspect there is alot yet to be
  • Maybe some journalists could bring lights on lobby activities of Jan Muhlfeit, CEO of Microsoft Czech and Microsoft Vice President for Europe. Mr. Muhlfeit currently does a "free advisor" to Czech Prime Minister Stanislav Gross. Guess the motives about it: Gross's party wasted billions of CZK for "Internet To Schools" program, now installed a *big* number of defunct Windows zombies computers ready for use by spammers over the world.
  • Microsoft needs non-public backroom agreements in order to get their software accepted. Plus some loose money here and there (a la Ed Black and the CCIA) always seems to help Microsoft get their software in place.
    • The only real advantage MSFT has on OSS is their marketing department. Of course they're going to try and buy their way in through the back door if they can't get in the front door.

      As annoying as it is it's kind of a back-handed compliment to OSS. MSFT has to bribe people to use their software. HAHAHAHA! Loooossssseeerrrrsssss.

  • The real question is why should these higher up people decide on what they should run. Should that be the policy of the IT department. Just as long as they meet the compatibility standard. Why should it make a difference is someone is Using Linux while someone else is using windows?
    • You are right, in principle. That is why the 2002 motion was about open standards in the first place, and preferred open source when possible.

      If all these reports are correct however, there's a working group across different departments that wants to strike a deal with MS for 245000 seats, with an obligation to really buy all those licenses. So the IT departments of the various departments (perhaps even municipalities) would have little say in the matter.
  • ...fire them!

  • I dont mind Microsoft in government (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jonwil ( 467024 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @10:26AM (#11066013)
    The job of government is to use the right tool for the job.
    If that tool is Microsoft software, thats fine.

    What is needed, however, is an insistance on Open Standards whenever possible (for example, I doubt you will find a police dispatch system built around Open Standards).
    And then have a competitive tender process.
    If Open Source can show a better outcome than Microsoft software, it should be used. But if Microsoft software is the better alternative, use it.

    • Re:I dont mind Microsoft in government (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NoOneInParticular ( 221808 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @10:51AM (#11066111)
      In this particular case, Dutch parliament has decided a year back that the right tool for the job would be open source software. Government however now completely ignores parliament and attempts to con up an exclusive deal with Microsoft. It might too difficult to go a full open-source route right away, but striking a deal that will tie the government (plus its public documents) to the beast of Redmond for a couple of years exclusively means, in essence, that government has ignored parliament. And this is not the first time.

  • open letter translation (Score:3, Informative)

    by Trestran ( 715384 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @11:01AM (#11066154)
    In case someone is interested, I was bored and translated the open letter [www.bof.nl]. The [...] remarks are translation notes added by me. I did it pretty quickly so there are probably quite a few spelling and other mistakes. You have been warned.



    To:

    Prime-Minister Balkenende
    Ministry of General Affairs
    PO box 20001
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3564683

    Minister De Graaf
    Ministry of Internal Affairs and Kingdomsrelations
    PO box 20011
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3639153

    Minister Brinkhorst
    Ministry of Economic Affairs
    PO box 20101
    2500 EC the Hague


    Transcripts to:

    Permanent commision for Economic Affairs
    Second chamber of the States-General [Dutch Parliament]
    PO box 20018
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3183439

    Permanent commision for Internal Affairs and Kingdomsrelations
    Second chamber of the States-General [Dutch Parliament]
    PO box 20018
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3183444

    Send by fax and lettermail.

    Amsterdam, 10th of december 2004

    Subject: state government[literaly the kingdoms' government in Dutch] contract with Microsoft

    Very honored mister Balkenende, de Graaf, Brinkhorst,


    The Automationguide of Friday 3rd of december reported that the state government and some muncipalities want to close an exclusive contract worth 147 milion Euro and a term of five years with Microsoft. In the realization thereof no public bidding took place.

    Undersigned organisations are worried about this intention and want to make you aware of the negative effects that such a contract has on the software market and the climate of inovation in the Netherlands. Likewise such a contract is contrary to the by the Cabinet stipulated policy regarding the use of open standards and open source at the government level and the aspiration to make the government less depandant of a single software supplier. On top of this Microsoft has been convicted by the European Commision because of poor interoperability of its server software.

    On the 20th of november 2002 the Second chamber spoke out unanimously for the motion [a proposal by the Parliament to the government] Vendrik in which the Government was asked to counteract concentrations in the software market, to make sure that in 2006 all sofware used by the public sector adheres to open standards and to "actively stimulate the spreading and development of software with open sourcecode (open source software) in the public sector and formulate concrete and ambitious goals for this".

    The ministries of BZK [internal affairs] and EZ [economic affairs] have set up the programme Open Standards and Open Source Software (OSOSS) to stimulate government organizations in a wide sense to use open standards in their ICT-applications. Moreover the programme Purchasing Taskasignment (PIT) has set up a ICT-purchasestrategy for the state government in which the following starting points have been included: guaranteeing of interoperability and the avoidance and where necesary breaking of vendor lock-in.

    Undersigned organizations are of the opinion that the closing of such a contract with Microsoft will to the locking of the door in the coming five years with regards to the application of open standards, free software and open source software. The now held contract negotiations are squarly oposed to the motion Vendrik and undermine the positive results of the OSOSS programme. On top of this the carefully formulated targets of the PIT are being bypassed.

    Undersigned organizations call on the Cabinet to take in take in hand the usage of open standards, free software and open source software seriously and ambitiously. Meanwhile there are sufficient initiatives within the government that proof that such software kan offer many advantages on the areas of interoperability, security and costs.

    In the opinion of the undersigned a contract of s

  • How can you ever fight bureaucrats? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CdBee ( 742846 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @11:01AM (#11066156)
    Ask the Iraqis, I guess. If you aren't willing to go to such extremes, either infiltrate them or put forward a genuinely and observably superior alternative.
    The OSS movement needs to win people over, not fight them

  • This kind of stuff always happens (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Bozdune ( 68800 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @11:06AM (#11066183)
    Vendors have "relationships" with buyers in companies. They wine 'em, dine 'em, hassle 'em, etc. That's what they do. It's ALL they do. They try to do this in secret. Why let the competition know?

    I remember when I was VP Engineering for a company, and I showed up one morning and there were all these drones from Compaq installing those idiotic "non-expandable crapola PC inside a 14" monitor" boxes that they used to sell. They were putting them EVERYWHERE.

    Yup, you guessed it, the Controller just decided on his own to go buy about 50 of these useless things. Never asked anyone for advice, even though he had about 40 engineers including me he could have consulted, any one of which would have told him that his decision was nuts.

    I got the Compaq sales guy alone in my office. I told him never to set foot in the building again. I told him Compaq would never, ever, sell us anything again as long as I was there. And they didn't. It didn't stop them from calling me. At the end, they were offering to rip every single PC out and put in some other hunk of crap. for like $200/station.

    But then we sold the whole company, so that was that.

  • They are currently knee-deep in MS contracts. When those expire, they can't just switch to something else on a whim, they have to be prepared. Switches like this are difficult, and need ot be planned out. The advantages are long-term, not short-term.

    So given that you have a huge IT infrastrucutre that relies on MS, and your service and support contracts are expiring.. what do you do? You negotiate with microsoft for how to proceed.

    An agreement to persue and prefer open source doesn't mean dropping the ba
  • Contrary to what many here think, I believe that this is a good and reasonable decision. Right now they have an MS solution that is most likely near the end of life. They bought themselves a big discount and some time from MS by voicing their dissatisfaction and intent to look into open source so they might as well use it to provide a smooth transition while they wait for the opensource solution to come together and prove itself in the marketplace. I like Linux, and use it myself on the desktop when appr
  • This is not as much a technical issue as it is a legal one. Support contracts and legal indemnifications have been considered, and as far as I know, the Dutch government cannot just use Open Source software.
    And don't forget the huge amount of data that has to be converted to [insert OSS-package here]. The ministry of internal affairs in the Netherlands still have their OSS pages available here [minbzk.nl] (Dutch), so they are still backing the Open Source iniative.
    • Their parliament (which I take as roughly equivlent to US congress) has just unanimously agreed to start down the road to more open standards, less proprietary software, more open source.

      And here someone? (It doesnt say who) is now negotiating with MS to give them exclusively, directly in contradiction to that. The only way heads dont roll over this is if the vote was entirely bogus, and was designed to get discounts from MS, or if *LOTS* of dirty money is changing hands.

      And no, data should not need to be
  • Despite a 2002 unanimous vote by the Dutch parliament to prefer open standards and open source, exclusive negotiations with Microsoft were started.

    Amazing how Microsoft can override parliamentary votes. No doubt they'll claim that they use Open Standards, and that they'll give the Dutch government a pile of papers containing what they say is the source code that will compile to the binaries that they provide.

  • One reason we formed the OSC (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Alkarismi ( 48631 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @12:39PM (#11066640) Homepage
    It became entirely apparent to me just over a year ago that *real* F/L/OSS advocacy was needed in the Government arena - to help stop sh*t like this happening.

    And if you think the proprietary vendors are going to stop Microsoft - you're living in a dream-world!

    This is one of the reasons why we formed the Open Source Consortium in the UK, a coalition of almost 70 F/L/OSS pure-play companies to provide a vendor neutral voice representing the views of the community to government. The other main reson being to give them a deployment force which is not controlled by any of the proprietary vendors.

    Of course, we were slated on slashdot just over a week ago. Interesting how you guys can whine about this kind of stuff happening, and then whine about your own kind coming together to try and stop it!

    Anyway, if there are any of you out there interested in actually *doing* something about this, rather than inneffective whingeing on slashdot, you may like to consider joining us!

    Oh, and you might like to consider funding FSF Europe as well - Georg and the guys are amongst the few front-line organisations we've got actually having an impact over here right now.

    Or you can just get back to compaining how unfair it all is...

    Open Source Consortium
    www.opensourceconsortium.org

  • MPs are outraged, and the EU may investigate why no mandatory

    It's nice to see that cross-national EU procedures seem to be in place to monitor these kinds of worrying development. It shows that the EU is not (just) about bureaucracy and 'being ruled from Brussels' as my British friends like to put it, but actually an effective means to watch what all its member governments are doing.

    --
    Coolbeans! The Nuggets [mynuggets.net], SMS search engine -- text your questions, get your answers from the Web, now all across the UK.

  • The Dutch connection (Score:5, Interesting)

    by theolein ( 316044 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @01:07PM (#11066791) Journal
    What makes me raise my eyebrows on occasion is the way that the Netherlands seems to be on a particularly anti-european or pro-american (depending on your viewpoint) bent in recent years. The Dutch military choosing the American Apache helicopter instead of the Eurocopter Tiger. The Dutch military choosing the american M-16 rifle for some reason that no one can quite fathom. The Dutch choosing to participate in the F-35 JSF fighter consortium which hasn't really brought them any benefits. The Dutch signing on to the Iraq war fiasco, which wasn't even very popular in Holland at the time. And now the great Microsoft deal of the century when just about every other country in the world, let alone Europe, is at least looking at Open Source alternatives.

    There are probably some good business and political reasons behind this but more often than not, the Dutch decisions seem to me to some kind of attempt to deliberately put the Germans and the French at a distance. I can understand that in a way as Holland is smaller than those two and could fear being overruled by them, but it mostly comes across as the epitomy of the old saying "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face", i.e. doing something on principle even though it has no benefit to one.

    Sadly, a lot of stuff in the EU seems to happen like this where national self interest can torpedo some very good projects (and bad as well, to be fair).

  • A questionnaire ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by thrill12 ( 711899 ) * on Sunday December 12, 2004 @03:21PM (#11067447) Journal
    ... by 'De automatiseringsgids' [automatiseringsgids.nl], a Dutch weekly newsletter for IT professionals, put the people in favor and opposing this deal to a 51-49 percentile stand off. What is clear from this questionairre, however, is that people opposing it know much much better why they opposed it ; funding their opinions appropriately. People in favor of the deal played mostly stupid when they were asked the same thing.

    I understand politicians are in the latter category, but it worries me that so many "IT professionals" are sticking their heads in the sand as well !

  • Open Source needs a bribery fund (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Fratz ( 630746 ) on Sunday December 12, 2004 @06:55PM (#11068565)
    While Open Source solutions may be better for an organization in the long-run, there's an unfortunate lack of bribery (aka kickbacks) possible when Open Source solutions are chosen over Closed Source. Keep in mind, many decision-makers are used to being persuaded into making decisions by commercial vendors in the form of free product, expensive vacations, and plain old cash. Open Source proponents generally can't do that.

    I believe we need to start the Open Source Bribery Fund (OSBF) to level the playing field. After all, you will always have some corrupt decision-makers to deal with, and evening out the bribery between solutions would perhaps encourage them to think of the actual merits of each solution.

  • Don't (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Monday December 13, 2004 @10:30AM (#11071955) Homepage Journal

    How can you ever fight bureaucrats?

    Fighting bureaucracy is like punching a marshmallow. All you'll do is wear yourself out.

    Systems of people are self-motivating however. I'd suggest giving them a scant budget based on cheaper alternatives (like zero euros for software licenses for OS, office software after, say, 2 years) Then, if they really want what they perceive as advantages of MS software, they can take it out of their own hides (no new office furniture, turn down the thermostats, re-use toilet paper, etc.).

    Oh, and a few mandates to require that public offices provide the public with information in free, standard open public formats.

    If the responsible decision-makers still believe that MS software provides cheap and standard methods for churning through the public's business, then let them prove it by living it.

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